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RE: [scrumdevelopment] XBreed, XPatScrum

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  • Mike Beedle
    ... Jonas: From the XBreed perspective, I can tell you that I am planning to spend more time documenting it in the next year because I have several clients
    Message 1 of 6 , Dec 7, 2001
      Jonas asks:
      > When will there be more information available on XPatScrum/Xbreed?

      Jonas:

      From the XBreed perspective, I can tell you that I am planning
      to spend more time documenting it in the next year because
      I have several clients that will be using it, and I have the
      proposal to write a book on it.

      Jonas asks:
      > Do the XP community see a need for XPatScrum/Xbreed?

      I think they do see the need. But even more important the
      clients doing XP do see the need. XBreed in fact wasn't
      a thought-driven method. It emerged from the needs to
      do enterprise development in an environment where
      multiple applications with dependencies existed.

      Basically, it is the natural evolution from managing
      one project into managing and coordinating dependencies
      among multiple projects. For enterprise style development
      is unavoidable.

      Jonas asks:
      > Won't XPatScrum/Xbreed decrease the teams authority to
      > work as they like?

      I think you are right, there is a compromise and overhead
      associated in developing reusable components, because now
      the teams need to involve other teams in their decisions.

      This is akin to the compromise between the well-being of
      an individual, in this case a single application development
      team, and the society, the rest of the enterprise development
      teams.

      And depending on how complex the reusable components are and
      their overall impact across multiple teams they incur
      more or less overhead.

      On the other hand, the benefits for an organization are
      potentially very large. We have been able to save
      our clients millions of dollars because complex components
      like a "Create Order" component, that took 6 months to
      develop can be reused in at least 4 teams. So doing
      the math is something like:

      CDRC < CDASC

      CDRC = Cost of developing reusable components
      CDASC = Cost of developing application-specific
      components

      CDRC = 6 months + overhead
      CDASC = 6 months x 4 = 24 months

      For other components like a "Find Beneficiary" the
      cost benefits are even more impressive since about
      12 applications will be able to reuse the component
      eventually.

      So I think from the perspective of ROI (return on
      investment), XBreed is well-justified,

      - Mike

      Mike Beedle http://www.mikebeedle.com

      e-Architects Inc. http://www.e-architects.com
      Hipaa Accelerator http://www.hipaaccelerator.com

      XBreed http://www.xbreed.net
      Agile Scrum http://www.agilescrum.com

      Agile Alliance http://www.agilealliance.org
      Living Metaphor http://www.livingmetaphor.org
    • caelumse
      Mike, Thanks for you answers! ... I m pleased to hear that! Good luck! ... Nice! Is XPatScrum/Xbreed the only successful attempt to scale XP up? ... Ok, I can
      Message 2 of 6 , Dec 7, 2001
        Mike,
        Thanks for you answers!

        > Jonas asks:
        > > When will there be more information available on XPatScrum/Xbreed?
        >
        > Jonas:
        >
        > From the XBreed perspective, I can tell you that I am planning
        > to spend more time documenting it in the next year because
        > I have several clients that will be using it, and I have the
        > proposal to write a book on it.

        I'm pleased to hear that! Good luck!

        > Jonas asks:
        > > Do the XP community see a need for XPatScrum/Xbreed?
        >
        > I think they do see the need. But even more important the
        > clients doing XP do see the need. XBreed in fact wasn't
        > a thought-driven method. It emerged from the needs to
        > do enterprise development in an environment where
        > multiple applications with dependencies existed.
        >
        > Basically, it is the natural evolution from managing
        > one project into managing and coordinating dependencies
        > among multiple projects. For enterprise style development
        > is unavoidable.

        Nice!
        Is XPatScrum/Xbreed the only successful attempt to scale XP up?

        > Jonas asks:
        > > Won't XPatScrum/Xbreed decrease the teams authority to
        > > work as they like?
        >
        > I think you are right, there is a compromise and overhead
        > associated in developing reusable components, because now
        > the teams need to involve other teams in their decisions.
        >
        > This is akin to the compromise between the well-being of
        > an individual, in this case a single application development
        > team, and the society, the rest of the enterprise development
        > teams.
        >
        > And depending on how complex the reusable components are and
        > their overall impact across multiple teams they incur
        > more or less overhead.
        >
        > On the other hand, the benefits for an organization are
        > potentially very large. We have been able to save
        > our clients millions of dollars because complex components
        > like a "Create Order" component, that took 6 months to
        > develop can be reused in at least 4 teams. So doing
        > the math is something like:
        >
        > CDRC < CDASC
        >
        > CDRC = Cost of developing reusable components
        > CDASC = Cost of developing application-specific
        > components
        >
        > CDRC = 6 months + overhead
        > CDASC = 6 months x 4 = 24 months
        >
        > For other components like a "Find Beneficiary" the
        > cost benefits are even more impressive since about
        > 12 applications will be able to reuse the component
        > eventually.
        >
        > So I think from the perspective of ROI (return on
        > investment), XBreed is well-justified,

        Ok, I can see that it is worth the effort to create reusable
        components.
        But even if you have just one team and use XPatScrum/Xbreed you still
        tell the team how to work. Is this really good or should you present
        XPatScrum/Xbreed to them and leave the decision up to them?

        Another question about multiple teams: when do they integrate their
        parts? Continuously during the Sprint or after the Sprint is done? As
        I have understood the question you use reuseable components after the
        Sprint is done. But how do you do when the different teams just
        develop different parts of the same system?

        /Jonas

        >
        > - Mike
        >
        > Mike Beedle http://www.mikebeedle.com
        >
        > e-Architects Inc. http://www.e-architects.com
        > Hipaa Accelerator http://www.hipaaccelerator.com
        >
        > XBreed http://www.xbreed.net
        > Agile Scrum http://www.agilescrum.com
        >
        > Agile Alliance http://www.agilealliance.org
        > Living Metaphor http://www.livingmetaphor.org
      • Ken Schwaber
        Thoughtworks and I are implementing xp@Scrum at a customer and just finished the first Sprint on a project that has utterly failed twice so far. At the Sprint
        Message 3 of 6 , Dec 8, 2001
          Thoughtworks and I are implementing xp@Scrum at a customer and just finished
          the first Sprint on a project that has utterly failed twice so far. At the
          Sprint review, they demonstrated functionality of value to the customer. Of
          equal importance, they demonstrated excellent engineering practices (based
          in XP), self-organization (based in Scrum), and excellent business
          involvement, ownership, and dynamic driving of the project to iteratively
          deliver value (Scrum). We were delighted.
          Ken

          -----Original Message-----
          From: caelumse [mailto:jonas.b@...]
          Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 1:14 PM
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [scrumdevelopment] XPatScrum, Xbreed


          I have some questions about XPatScrum/Xbreed:

          When will there be more information available on XPatScrum/Xbreed?

          Do the XP community see a need for XPatScrum/Xbreed?

          Won't XPatScrum/Xbreed decrease the teams authority to work as they
          like?

          Regards,
          Jonas


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        • Jonas Bengtsson
          Ken, I m pleased to hear that. Looking forward for more information about xp@Scrum! Regards, Jonas ... From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@verizon.net]
          Message 4 of 6 , Dec 9, 2001
            Ken,
            I'm pleased to hear that.

            Looking forward for more information about xp@Scrum!

            Regards,
            Jonas

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Ken Schwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@...]
            Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 3:14 AM
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] XPatScrum, Xbreed


            Thoughtworks and I are implementing xp@Scrum at a customer and just finished
            the first Sprint on a project that has utterly failed twice so far. At the
            Sprint review, they demonstrated functionality of value to the customer. Of
            equal importance, they demonstrated excellent engineering practices (based
            in XP), self-organization (based in Scrum), and excellent business
            involvement, ownership, and dynamic driving of the project to iteratively
            deliver value (Scrum). We were delighted.
            Ken

            -----Original Message-----
            From: caelumse [mailto:jonas.b@...]
            Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 1:14 PM
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [scrumdevelopment] XPatScrum, Xbreed


            I have some questions about XPatScrum/Xbreed:

            When will there be more information available on XPatScrum/Xbreed?

            Do the XP community see a need for XPatScrum/Xbreed?

            Won't XPatScrum/Xbreed decrease the teams authority to work as they
            like?

            Regards,
            Jonas


            To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
            To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...

            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



            To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
            To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...

            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          • Mike Beedle
            ... Jonas: As far as I know, XPatScrum and XBreed are the only agile ways to scale agile development to multiple teams. Of course, both of them are strongly
            Message 5 of 6 , Dec 9, 2001
              > Jonas asks:
              >
              >> Jonas asks:
              >> > Do the XP community see a need for XPatScrum/Xbreed?
              >>
              >> I think they do see the need. But even more important the
              >> clients doing XP do see the need. XBreed in fact wasn't
              >> a thought-driven method. It emerged from the needs to
              >> do enterprise development in an environment where
              >> multiple applications with dependencies existed.
              >>
              >> Basically, it is the natural evolution from managing
              >> one project into managing and coordinating dependencies
              >> among multiple projects. For enterprise style development
              >> is unavoidable.
              >
              >Nice!
              >Is XPatScrum/Xbreed the only successful attempt to scale XP up?

              Jonas:

              As far as I know, XPatScrum and XBreed are the only "agile
              ways" to scale agile development to multiple teams.

              Of course, both of them are strongly based on Scrum,

              - Mike
              http://www.mikebeedle.com
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