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Re: [scrumdevelopment] User Stories for Product Owners

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  • Steven Gordon
    Peter, What are the business analysts going to do now that Scrum is being implemented? If they are not being let go, perhaps one of them could work with each
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 3, 2006
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      Peter,

      What are the business analysts going to do now that Scrum is being
      implemented?

      If they are not being let go, perhaps one of them could work with each
      PO. An experienced analyst could not only help the PO write better
      user stories, but also outline the acceptance criteria or even write
      the acceptance tests.

      Just because it is the PO's responsibility does not mean they have to
      do the work by themselves.

      Steven Gordon

      On 10/3/06, Peter Hundermark <peterh@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello Mike,
      >
      > We have just begun to implement Scrum on our first project (very
      > exciting!) and it's hard to help the PO to write User Stories and
      > create a prioritised Product Backlog when he or she is used to having
      > an analyst gather requirements. I think a condensed version of USA for
      > Product Owners would be a great help. I also imagine this would be a
      > good "teaser" to sell more copies of the full book!
      >
      > I've just bought both books (USA & EAP) and am finding them extremely
      > helpful, but I know I won't get every PO to read a full book.
      >
      > I hope this encourages you!
      >
      > Peter
    • Ron Jeffries
      Hello Steven, thanks for your ideas. On Tuesday, October 3, 2006, at ... Just so. I like teams to think of the Analysts, //and the testers// as staff to the
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 3, 2006
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        Hello Steven, thanks for your ideas. On Tuesday, October 3, 2006, at
        10:52:36 AM, you wrote:

        > What are the business analysts going to do now that Scrum is being
        > implemented?

        > If they are not being let go, perhaps one of them could work with each
        > PO. An experienced analyst could not only help the PO write better
        > user stories, but also outline the acceptance criteria or even write
        > the acceptance tests.

        > Just because it is the PO's responsibility does not mean they have to
        > do the work by themselves.

        Just so. I like teams to think of the Analysts, //and the testers//
        as staff to the PO.

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        Bang, bang, Jeffries' silver hammer came down upon their heads ...
      • ianralls01
        Hi Mike, This would be absolutely great for us... we struggle with conveying the concept to the various people in the business that would benefit from reading
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 4, 2006
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          Hi Mike,

          This would be absolutely great for us... we struggle with conveying
          the concept to the various people in the business that would benefit
          from reading the books, but don't. A more (dare I say
          it..) "lightweight" version for
          them would be greatly appreciated!
          Cheers,
          Ian

          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Mike Cohn <mike@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Peter--
          > Thanks, this does help. I've asked my publisher to look into the
          > feasibility of this. A 20-30 page PDF eBook condensing _User
          Stories
          > Applied_ for product owners does seem like it would be useful.
          > Thanks,
          > Mike Cohn
          > Author:
          > Agile Estimating and Planning
          > User Stories Applied
          > www.mountaingoatsoftware.com
          >
        • Peter Hundermark
          Thanks for the helpful advice, Steven and Ron. I just love the way experienced and busy practioners are willing to dish out (free) pearls of wisdom to us
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 4, 2006
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            Thanks for the helpful advice, Steven and Ron. I just love the way
            experienced and busy practioners are willing to dish out (free) pearls
            of wisdom to us newbies!

            Yes, we still have a systems analyst on the team and she is busy
            "helping" the PO to write user stories. She also writes use cases as we
            are continuing to follow the RUP "software engineering" practices. We
            also have a test analyst who defines the tests. There is a realisation
            that these highly defined and separated roles will blur as the team
            self-organises. It's early days and we're changing those things now that
            are important to avoid Scrum "smells".

            Peter

            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Hello Steven, thanks for your ideas. On Tuesday, October 3, 2006, at
            > 10:52:36 AM, you wrote:
            >
            > > What are the business analysts going to do now that Scrum is being
            > > implemented?
            >
            > > If they are not being let go, perhaps one of them could work with
            each
            > > PO. An experienced analyst could not only help the PO write better
            > > user stories, but also outline the acceptance criteria or even write
            > > the acceptance tests.
            >
            > > Just because it is the PO's responsibility does not mean they have
            to
            > > do the work by themselves.
            >
            > Just so. I like teams to think of the Analysts, //and the testers//
            > as staff to the PO.
            >
            > Ron Jeffries
            > www.XProgramming.com
            > Bang, bang, Jeffries' silver hammer came down upon their heads ...
            >
          • Ron Jeffries
            Hello ianralls01, thanks for the thoughts quoted here. On Wednesday, ... Worth noting, perhaps, that while this would probably sell, and people would probably
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 4, 2006
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              Hello ianralls01, thanks for the thoughts quoted here. On Wednesday,
              October 4, 2006, at 5:55:19 AM, you wrote:

              > This would be absolutely great for us... we struggle with conveying
              > the concept to the various people in the business that would benefit
              > from reading the books, but don't. A more (dare I say
              > it..) "lightweight" version for
              > them would be greatly appreciated!

              Worth noting, perhaps, that while this would probably sell, and
              people would probably read it, it won't suddenly bring all these
              people up to speed.

              Sitting down with people and talking to them might. People in Agile
              projects could do that themselves, or they could bring in highly
              paid effective consultants to do that for them ...

              Ron Jeffries
              www.XProgramming.com
              To be on the wire is life. The rest is waiting. --Karl Wallenda
            • Mike Cohn
              No, handing someone a 20-30 page PDF won t fully get someone up to speed. However, what I ve found useful is talking to product owners _and_ in many cases
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 4, 2006
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                No, handing someone a 20-30 page PDF won't fully get someone up to speed. However, what I've found useful is talking to product owners _and_ in many cases leaving them with something very short and very non-intimidating to read. Not everyone would need to read it and not everyone would. Different people learn in different ways and most of us learn by using multiple modes before the points sink in.
                Regards,
                Mike Cohn
                Author:
                  Agile Estimating and Planning
                  User Stories Applied
                www.mountaingoatsoftware.com


                On Oct 4, 2006, at 4:51 AM, Ron Jeffries wrote:

                Hello ianralls01, thanks for the thoughts quoted here. On Wednesday,
                October 4, 2006, at 5:55:19 AM, you wrote:

                > This would be absolutely great for us... we struggle with conveying
                > the concept to the various people in the business that would benefit
                > from reading the books, but don't. A more (dare I say
                > it..) "lightweight" version for
                > them would be greatly appreciated!

                Worth noting, perhaps, that while this would probably sell, and
                people would probably read it, it won't suddenly bring all these
                people up to speed.

                Sitting down with people and talking to them might. People in Agile
                projects could do that themselves, or they could bring in highly
                paid effective consultants to do that for them ...

                Ron Jeffries
                www.XProgramming.com
                To be on the wire is life. The rest is waiting. --Karl Wallenda


              • Ron Jeffries
                Hello Mike, thank you for the email quoted here. On Wednesday, ... Oh, I agree. After all, I publish my every thought. Except for your books, not much has been
                Message 7 of 9 , Oct 4, 2006
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                  Hello Mike, thank you for the email quoted here. On Wednesday,
                  October 4, 2006, at 8:53:25 AM, you wrote:

                  > No, handing someone a 20-30 page PDF won't fully get someone up to
                  > speed. However, what I've found useful is talking to product owners
                  > _and_ in many cases leaving them with something very short and very
                  > non-intimidating to read. Not everyone would need to read it and not
                  > everyone would. Different people learn in different ways and most of
                  > us learn by using multiple modes before the points sink in.

                  Oh, I agree. After all, I publish my every thought. Except for your
                  books, not much has been done with them. ;->

                  Ron Jeffries
                  www.XProgramming.com
                  Wisdom begins when we discover the difference between
                  "That makes no sense" and "I don't understand". --Mary Doria Russell
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