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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Critique of Agile Processes

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  • PaulOldfield1@aol.com
    ... There has been fairly extensive comment on this blog entry on various other forums. I m sure other folk can comment on the negative aspects quite
    Message 1 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
       
       
      > A colleague forwarded this to me today.  I don't think it's
      > been mentioned on this forum yet.
       
      There has been fairly extensive comment on this blog entry
      on various other forums.
       
      I'm sure other folk can comment on the negative aspects
      quite adequately without my help.
       
      One interesting observation I make is that the foundations
      of the agile community arose from a minority of organizations
      who had invested considerable effort to improve the way
      they did their work.  This still happens, independent of the
      agile body of knowledge or otherwise.  Of the few cases I
      have looked at where the organization has invested a lot
      in effective ways of improving the way they work, I see a
      pattern starting to emerge.  They regard their hiring process
      as very important.  Their ways of working are very agile.
      Their ways of working are highly tailored to their situation
      and unlike agile 'out of the box' approaches.  They tend not
      to want to call themselves 'agile'.
       
      In my opinion, this is good news about them, more than bad
      news about us.
       
      Paul Oldfield
    • Pete Deemer
      If anyone needs an empirical counterpoint to the posting, Gabby Benefield and I have some summary data from our regular survey of the 600+ people at Yahoo!
      Message 2 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006

        If anyone needs an empirical counterpoint to the posting, Gabby Benefield and I have some summary data from our regular survey of the 600+ people at Yahoo! using Scrum, it’s at the end of this document:

         

        http://www.amdika.com/scrum_primer_1_0.pdf

         


        From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of PaulOldfield1@...
        Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 1:18 PM
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Critique of Agile Processes

         

         

         

        > A colleague forwarded this to me today.  I don't think it's

        > been mentioned on this forum yet.

         

        There has been fairly extensive comment on this blog entry

        on various other forums.

         

        I'm sure other folk can comment on the negative aspects

        quite adequately without my help.

         

        One interesting observation I make is that the foundations

        of the agile community arose from a minority of organizations

        who had invested considerable effort to improve the way

        they did their work.  This still happens, independent of the

        agile body of knowledge or otherwise.  Of the few cases I

        have looked at where the organization has invested a lot

        in effective ways of improving the way they work, I see a

        pattern starting to emerge.  They regard their hiring process

        as very important.  Their ways of working are very agile.

        Their ways of working are highly tailored to their situation

        and unlike agile 'out of the box' approaches.  They tend not

        to want to call themselves 'agile'.

         

        In my opinion, this is good news about them, more than bad

        news about us.

         

        Paul Oldfield

      • Richard Lacher
        Our Agile implementation met up with significant resistance from senior management and competing development groups within the company. The concepts and terms
        Message 3 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
          Our Agile implementation met up with significant resistance from senior management and competing development groups within the company.  The concepts and terms did not go over well.  So we changed strategies to address this by using empirical facts in the way of Lean Six Sigma Control Charts and shifting our terms to "customer focus', and ‘Leaning Out’ our processes.  Management responded much better to us reporting that we are actively refining our processes so that we only perform work that the customer was willing to pay for or that the business required in order to stay viable.  We made a conscious decision to no longer say or use terms such as xp or agile or self-managed to any group that did not first show sincere interest in our successes.


          PaulOldfield1@... wrote:
           
           
          > A colleague forwarded this to me today.  I don't think it's
          > been mentioned on this forum yet.
           
          There has been fairly extensive comment on this blog entry
          on various other forums.
           
          I'm sure other folk can comment on the negative aspects
          quite adequately without my help.
           
          One interesting observation I make is that the foundations
          of the agile community arose from a minority of organizations
          who had invested considerable effort to improve the way
          they did their work.  This still happens, independent of the
          agile body of knowledge or otherwise.  Of the few cases I
          have looked at where the organization has invested a lot
          in effective ways of improving the way they work, I see a
          pattern starting to emerge.  They regard their hiring process
          as very important.  Their ways of working are very agile.
          Their ways of working are highly tailored to their situation
          and unlike agile 'out of the box' approaches.  They tend not
          to want to call themselves 'agile'.
           
          In my opinion, this is good news about them, more than bad
          news about us.
           
          Paul Oldfield


          Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.

        • Paul Beckford
          Hi All, It gets worse, Here are links to a series of articles that claims (amongst other things) that Agile just doesn t understand people:
          Message 4 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
            Hi All,

            It gets worse,

            Here are links to a series of articles that claims (amongst other
            things) that Agile just doesn't understand people:

            http://www.claretyconsulting.com/it/comments/agile-enough-is-enough/2006-06-26/
            http://www.claretyconsulting.com/it/comments/agile-fees-feeding-frenzy/2006-07-27/
            http://www.claretyconsulting.com/it/comments/agile-scrum-fails-to-get-to-grips-with-human-psychology/2006-08-17/


            Worst still, the blogger has deleted my posts and banned me from posting
            because chose to point out that the he as a commercial interest in
            deriding Agile. He is using his blog to promote his PRINCE2 based
            Project management Consultancy by deriding Agile!

            I guess one way to look at it is if Agile is attracting FUD like this,
            then it must be making an impact.

            BTW since I've been barred from the site, it wouldn't bother me in the
            slightest if others chose to let Mr Brady know what they think about his
            negative PR campaign :^).

            Paul.

            Richard Lacher wrote:

            > Our Agile implementation met up with significant resistance from
            > senior management and competing development groups within the company.
            > The concepts and terms did not go over well. So we changed strategies
            > to address this by using empirical facts in the way of Lean Six Sigma
            > Control Charts and shifting our terms to "customer focus', and
            > ‘Leaning Out’ our processes. Management responded much better to us
            > reporting that we are actively refining our processes so that we only
            > perform work that the customer was willing to pay for or that the
            > business required in order to stay viable. We made a conscious
            > decision to no longer say or use terms such as xp or agile or
            > self-managed to any group that did not first show sincere interest in
            > our successes.
            >
            >
            > */PaulOldfield1@.../* wrote:
            >
            > > A colleague forwarded this to me today. I don't think it's
            > > been mentioned on this forum yet.
            > There has been fairly extensive comment on this blog entry
            > on various other forums.
            > I'm sure other folk can comment on the negative aspects
            > quite adequately without my help.
            > One interesting observation I make is that the foundations
            > of the agile community arose from a minority of organizations
            > who had invested considerable effort to improve the way
            > they did their work. This still happens, independent of the
            > agile body of knowledge or otherwise. Of the few cases I
            > have looked at where the organization has invested a lot
            > in effective ways of improving the way they work, I see a
            > pattern starting to emerge. They regard their hiring process
            > as very important. Their ways of working are very agile.
            > Their ways of working are highly tailored to their situation
            > and unlike agile 'out of the box' approaches. They tend not
            > to want to call themselves 'agile'.
            > In my opinion, this is good news about them, more than bad
            > news about us.
            > Paul Oldfield
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls
            > <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman1/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39663/*http://voice.yahoo.com>
            > to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
            >
          • Ron Jeffries
            Hello Paul, thanks for your note. On Tuesday, October 3, 2006, at ... I m too busy helping people get the software they need, when they need it, to help Mr
            Message 5 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
              Hello Paul, thanks for your note. On Tuesday, October 3, 2006, at
              3:42:13 PM, you wrote:

              > Worst still, the blogger has deleted my posts and banned me from posting
              > because chose to point out that the he as a commercial interest in
              > deriding Agile. He is using his blog to promote his PRINCE2 based
              > Project management Consultancy by deriding Agile!

              I'm too busy helping people get the software they need, when they
              need it, to help Mr Brady with his problems. Maybe some other time.

              Ron Jeffries
              www.XProgramming.com
              Speak the affirmative; emphasize your choice
              by utterly ignoring all that you reject. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
            • Steve Ropa
              I just got some good advice from Mike about this. His point was that responding to this kind of stuff just encourages them. He s right, but it does annoy me
              Message 6 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
                I just got some good advice from Mike about this. His point was that
                responding to this kind of stuff just encourages them. He's right, but it
                does annoy me to see all of the consultants who are making an honest living
                teaching Agile and coaching projects, thus helping them be successful,
                dragged through the mud like this.

                But maybe that's because some day I hope to be one of those nasty money
                grubbing consultants.


                Steve

                -----Original Message-----
                From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Beckford
                Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 1:42 PM
                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Critique of Agile Processes

                Hi All,

                It gets worse,

                Here are links to a series of articles that claims (amongst other
                things) that Agile just doesn't understand people:

                http://www.claretyconsulting.com/it/comments/agile-enough-is-enough/2006-06-
                26/
                http://www.claretyconsulting.com/it/comments/agile-fees-feeding-frenzy/2006-
                07-27/
                http://www.claretyconsulting.com/it/comments/agile-scrum-fails-to-get-to-gri
                ps-with-human-psychology/2006-08-17/


                Worst still, the blogger has deleted my posts and banned me from posting
                because chose to point out that the he as a commercial interest in
                deriding Agile. He is using his blog to promote his PRINCE2 based
                Project management Consultancy by deriding Agile!

                I guess one way to look at it is if Agile is attracting FUD like this,
                then it must be making an impact.

                BTW since I've been barred from the site, it wouldn't bother me in the
                slightest if others chose to let Mr Brady know what they think about his
                negative PR campaign :^).

                Paul.

                Richard Lacher wrote:

                > Our Agile implementation met up with significant resistance from
                > senior management and competing development groups within the company.
                > The concepts and terms did not go over well. So we changed strategies
                > to address this by using empirical facts in the way of Lean Six Sigma
                > Control Charts and shifting our terms to "customer focus', and
                > ‘Leaning Out’ our processes. Management responded much better to us
                > reporting that we are actively refining our processes so that we only
                > perform work that the customer was willing to pay for or that the
                > business required in order to stay viable. We made a conscious
                > decision to no longer say or use terms such as xp or agile or
                > self-managed to any group that did not first show sincere interest in
                > our successes.
                >
                >
                > */PaulOldfield1@.../* wrote:
                >
                > > A colleague forwarded this to me today. I don't think it's
                > > been mentioned on this forum yet.
                > There has been fairly extensive comment on this blog entry
                > on various other forums.
                > I'm sure other folk can comment on the negative aspects
                > quite adequately without my help.
                > One interesting observation I make is that the foundations
                > of the agile community arose from a minority of organizations
                > who had invested considerable effort to improve the way
                > they did their work. This still happens, independent of the
                > agile body of knowledge or otherwise. Of the few cases I
                > have looked at where the organization has invested a lot
                > in effective ways of improving the way they work, I see a
                > pattern starting to emerge. They regard their hiring process
                > as very important. Their ways of working are very agile.
                > Their ways of working are highly tailored to their situation
                > and unlike agile 'out of the box' approaches. They tend not
                > to want to call themselves 'agile'.
                > In my opinion, this is good news about them, more than bad
                > news about us.
                > Paul Oldfield
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls
                >
                <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman1/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/ev
                t=39663/*http://voice.yahoo.com>
                > to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
                >





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              • Sarat Kumar Swain
                Hi there, I am new to scrum and my company is planning to adopt to this methods for our projects. However, my team is thinking to start practicing so that we
                Message 7 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
                  Hi there,
                   I am new to scrum and my company is planning to adopt to this methods for our projects. However, my team is thinking to start practicing so that we can ask management to formaly accept it sooner. Would you suggest some tools to manage product backlogs, sprint backlogs and sprint burndown charts etc. ? I see that Ken used excel in his examples, any other tool that can help ?

                  Thank you
                  Sarat K. Swain
                  Team Lead, Boston

                • Steve Ropa
                  Ok, I ll be the first responder on this one. First, how big is your team, and are they collocated? If they are, and it isn t a massive team, I highly
                  Message 8 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006

                    Ok, I’ll be the first responder on this one.

                     

                    First, how big is your team, and are they collocated?  If they are, and it isn’t a massive team, I highly recommend you start with index cards and bulletin boards.

                     

                    If they aren’t, or it’s a massive team, I suggest starting with a subset that is collocated, if you can get away with it….and use index cards and bulletin boards.  After you’ve gotten into the swing of things, if you find you are needing a tool, then look at the many options available, with an eye to the one that fits *your team’s* needs first.

                     

                     

                     

                    Steve

                     


                    From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Sarat Kumar Swain
                    Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 2:12 PM
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Managing product backlog/sprint backlog tool

                     

                    Hi there,
                     I am new to scrum and my company is planning to adopt to this methods for our projects. However, my team is thinking to start practicing so that we can ask management to formaly accept it sooner. Would you suggest some tools to manage product backlogs, sprint backlogs and sprint burndown charts etc. ? I see that Ken used excel in his examples, any other tool that can help ?

                    Thank you
                    Sarat K. Swain
                    Team Lead, Boston

                  • Steven Gordon
                    Index cards, pens, pencils, white boards, bulletin boards, large pieces of paper, markers, etc.
                    Message 9 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
                      Index cards, pens, pencils, white boards, bulletin boards, large
                      pieces of paper, markers, etc.

                      On 10/3/06, Sarat Kumar Swain <swainsarat@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi there,
                      > I am new to scrum and my company is planning to adopt to this methods for
                      > our projects. However, my team is thinking to start practicing so that we
                      > can ask management to formaly accept it sooner. Would you suggest some tools
                      > to manage product backlogs, sprint backlogs and sprint burndown charts etc.
                      > ? I see that Ken used excel in his examples, any other tool that can help ?
                      >
                      > Thank you
                      > Sarat K. Swain
                      > Team Lead, Boston
                    • Ilja Preuss
                      ... For burn charts, flip chart paper and thick pens in striking colors (red, green, light blue...) work best in my experience. Cheers, Ilja
                      Message 10 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
                        Sarat Kumar Swain schrieb:
                        > Would you
                        > suggest some tools to manage product backlogs, sprint backlogs and
                        > sprint burndown charts etc. ?

                        For burn charts, flip chart paper and thick pens in striking colors
                        (red, green, light blue...) work best in my experience.

                        Cheers, Ilja
                      • Ron Jeffries
                        Hello Steven, thanks for your email. On Tuesday, October 3, 2006, at ... Thanks for saving me the time. ;- Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Talent determines
                        Message 11 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
                          Hello Steven, thanks for your email. On Tuesday, October 3, 2006, at
                          4:31:06 PM, you wrote:

                          > Index cards, pens, pencils, white boards, bulletin boards, large
                          > pieces of paper, markers, etc.

                          Thanks for saving me the time. ;->

                          Ron Jeffries
                          www.XProgramming.com
                          Talent determines how fast you get good, not how good you get. -- Richard Gabriel
                        • Deb
                          ... that agile ... This is a topic I ve seen coming up a lot, particularly in response to the agile sucks camp. Those of us who have seen it in action know
                          Message 12 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
                            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Gregor Dodson"
                            <notacrime@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I agree with the Steves. The stuff he found frustrating is stuff
                            that agile
                            > processes shed light on, not problems that agile processes create.
                            >
                            > It seemed to me like one big long troll.
                            >

                            This is a topic I've seen coming up a lot, particularly in response to
                            the "agile sucks" camp. Those of us who have seen it in action know
                            just how well Agile does this: reveal problems that older processes
                            (were perhaps designed to) cover up.

                            I could really use an article for InfoQ on how Agile methods surface
                            problems and how this can be a good thing. In a workplace where "quiet
                            and calm" is good and "problems" are bad, this effect of revealing
                            issues can be very disturbing. People experiencing Agile for the first
                            time or seeing it from the outside, if they can reframe their
                            understanding of obstacles, could come to understand how they present
                            opportunities that require energy but can pay off.

                            I'm smiling to myself, remembering a recent comment that a good
                            process won't fix bad people... yes, there are some things revealed
                            that only represent opportunities to, um, move on (either the obstacle
                            or the coach :-)

                            Any takers? I hope it's ok to request this kind of input on this
                            list... it seems like a good place to ask.

                            thanks
                            deb

                            --
                            Deborah Hartmann
                            Agile Community Editor
                            InfoQ.com
                          • Sarat Kumar Swain
                            Thank you Friends. We ll start with the below tools :) Regards Sarat ... From: Ron Jeffries To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                            Message 13 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
                              Thank you Friends. We'll start with the below tools :)

                              Regards
                              Sarat


                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...>
                              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2006 5:50:53 PM
                              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Managing product backlog/sprint backlog tool

                              Hello Steven, thanks for your email. On Tuesday, October 3, 2006, at
                              4:31:06 PM, you wrote:

                              > Index cards, pens, pencils, white boards, bulletin boards, large
                              > pieces of paper, markers, etc.

                              Thanks for saving me the time. ;->

                              Ron Jeffries
                              www.XProgramming. com
                              Talent determines how fast you get good, not how good you get. -- Richard Gabriel


                            • PaulOldfield1@aol.com
                              (responding to Paul B) ... So it probably isn t a good idea to promote his site by having links to it in your posting. A dumb spider won t tell the difference
                              Message 14 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
                                (responding to Paul B)
                                 
                                > BTW since I've been barred from the site, it wouldn't bother me in the
                                > slightest if others chose to let Mr Brady know what they think about
                                his
                                > negative PR campaign :^).
                                 
                                So it probably isn't a good idea to promote his site by having
                                links to it in your posting. A dumb spider won't tell the difference
                                between a "go there" and "don't go there" recommendation.
                                 
                                Paul Oldfield
                                 
                              • beckfordp
                                ... the ... about his ... Hi Paul, yes, I ve strugled with this one too. art ofme thinks that such mis-information should not be allowed to stand
                                Message 15 of 28 , Oct 4, 2006
                                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, PaulOldfield1@... wrote:
                                  >
                                  > (responding to Paul B)
                                  >
                                  > > BTW since I've been barred from the site, it wouldn't bother me in
                                  the
                                  > > slightest if others chose to let Mr Brady know what they think
                                  about his
                                  > > negative PR campaign :^).
                                  >
                                  > So it probably isn't a good idea to promote his site by having
                                  > links to it in your posting. A dumb spider won't tell the difference
                                  > between a "go there" and "don't go there" recommendation.
                                  >
                                  > Paul Oldfield
                                  >
                                  Hi Paul,

                                  yes, I've strugled with this one too. art ofme thinks that such
                                  mis-information should not be allowed to stand unchallenged, and the
                                  other half of me fells that he should not be given the oxygen of
                                  publicity.

                                  On balance,I suppose you are right.

                                  Paul.
                                • keiffster
                                  An interesting article, especially written by some one who has limited background in development but mainly comes from a Prince 2 inspired ( or should that be
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Oct 4, 2006
                                    An interesting article, especially written by some one who has limited
                                    background in development but mainly comes from a Prince 2 inspired (
                                    or should that be insipid )management background.

                                    He obviously feels threatened by Agile, and is definately using it as
                                    self promotion. He's a Prince 2 man through and through.

                                    Unfortunately in the UK Prince 2 has taken quite a hold, and a vast
                                    amount of projects are advertised as requiring Prince 2 Certified
                                    Project/Programme Managers.

                                    He's had a wonderful life delivering major programmes using Prince 2 (
                                    so his website says ), and decided to divest all the experience in his
                                    own consultancy. I actually know some of the more
                                    technical/development staff on some of the projects he mentioned and
                                    Prince 2 was very much the high level management controlling process,
                                    the developement teams on some of the work, where a little more
                                    'agile' than he knows.

                                    Regardless, only with active criticisim such as this can we strengthen
                                    the argument for Agile methods.

                                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Bobick"
                                    <sbobick2@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > A colleague forwarded this to me today. I don't think it's been
                                    mentioned
                                    > on this forum yet.
                                    >
                                    > http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/09/good-agile-bad-agile_27.html
                                    >
                                    > -- Stephen
                                    >
                                  • Otis Bricker
                                    I am not all that up-to-date on emerging methods. What is Prince 2? All I can come up with is the methodology formerly known as Prince . Otis B.
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Oct 4, 2006
                                      I am not all that up-to-date on emerging methods. What is Prince 2? All
                                      I can come up with is " the methodology formerly known as Prince".

                                      Otis B.

                                      keiffster wrote:
                                      >
                                      > An interesting article, especially written by some one who has limited
                                      > background in development but mainly comes from a Prince 2 inspired (
                                      > or should that be insipid )management background.
                                      >
                                      > He obviously feels threatened by Agile, and is definately using it as
                                      > self promotion. He's a Prince 2 man through and through.
                                      >
                                      > Unfortunately in the UK Prince 2 has taken quite a hold, and a vast
                                      > amount of projects are advertised as requiring Prince 2 Certified
                                      > Project/Programme Managers.
                                      >
                                      > He's had a wonderful life delivering major programmes using Prince 2 (
                                      > so his website says ), and decided to divest all the experience in his
                                      > own consultancy. I actually know some of the more
                                      > technical/development staff on some of the projects he mentioned and
                                      > Prince 2 was very much the high level management controlling process,
                                      > the developement teams on some of the work, where a little more
                                      > 'agile' than he knows.
                                      >
                                      > Regardless, only with active criticisim such as this can we strengthen
                                      > the argument for Agile methods.
                                      >
                                      > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                      > <mailto:scrumdevelopment%40yahoogroups.com>, "Stephen Bobick"
                                      > <sbobick2@...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > A colleague forwarded this to me today. I don't think it's been
                                      > mentioned
                                      > > on this forum yet.
                                      > >
                                      > > http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/09/good-agile-bad-agile_27.html
                                      > <http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/09/good-agile-bad-agile_27.html>
                                      > >
                                      > > -- Stephen
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Dave Hostick
                                      I m not a Prince 2 man - however, a lot of customers are. The way I look at it is this: If the customer requires the red tape and the names of those who can be
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Oct 5, 2006
                                        I'm not a Prince 2 man - however, a lot of customers are.

                                        The way I look at it is this:

                                        If the customer requires the red tape and the names of those who can
                                        be blamed for failure, along with the issues and risks logs to record
                                        evidence, then Prince 2 is for him - he is expecting to fail, and
                                        needs the insurance to save his job.

                                        All we do, when the customer insists, is fit-in with Prince 2 as the
                                        high level where Scrum is used to manage the (unpredictable)
                                        developments; as a supplier with expected delivery at the end of the
                                        sprints. This gives the customer his gantt chart at a more more higher
                                        static level - the agile bits hidden from the customer (except the
                                        user seconded to the project, who just thinks the agile method is
                                        normal anyway).

                                        Don't get hung up on Prince 2 - It has its place for those who can't
                                        do agile, who can't manage software developments; who fail when they
                                        do, and make us look good.

                                        Dave



                                        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "keiffster" <keith@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > An interesting article, especially written by some one who has limited
                                        > background in development but mainly comes from a Prince 2 inspired (
                                        > or should that be insipid )management background.
                                        >
                                        > He obviously feels threatened by Agile, and is definately using it as
                                        > self promotion. He's a Prince 2 man through and through.
                                        >
                                        > Unfortunately in the UK Prince 2 has taken quite a hold, and a vast
                                        > amount of projects are advertised as requiring Prince 2 Certified
                                        > Project/Programme Managers.
                                        >
                                        > He's had a wonderful life delivering major programmes using Prince 2 (
                                        > so his website says ), and decided to divest all the experience in his
                                        > own consultancy. I actually know some of the more
                                        > technical/development staff on some of the projects he mentioned and
                                        > Prince 2 was very much the high level management controlling process,
                                        > the developement teams on some of the work, where a little more
                                        > 'agile' than he knows.
                                        >
                                        > Regardless, only with active criticisim such as this can we strengthen
                                        > the argument for Agile methods.
                                        >
                                        > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Bobick"
                                        > <sbobick2@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > A colleague forwarded this to me today. I don't think it's been
                                        > mentioned
                                        > > on this forum yet.
                                        > >
                                        > > http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/09/good-agile-bad-agile_27.html
                                        > >
                                        > > -- Stephen
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • Lasse Koskela
                                        ... Methodology? Prince 2 is not a university in New Jersey? - Lasse [walking away before the hilarity police hits the scene...]
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Oct 5, 2006
                                          On 10/5/06, Otis Bricker <obricker@...> wrote:
                                          > I am not all that up-to-date on emerging methods. What is Prince 2? All
                                          > I can come up with is " the methodology formerly known as Prince".

                                          Methodology? "Prince 2" is not a university in New Jersey?

                                          - Lasse [walking away before the hilarity police hits the scene...]
                                        • Dan Bunea
                                          As a continuation to what Steven said, if you (your teams) and your customers are collocated there s nothing better then : index card, pens , pencils,
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Oct 5, 2006
                                            As a continuation to what Steven said, if you (your teams) and your customers are collocated there's nothing better then : index card, pens , pencils, whiteboard, markers,  .... and maybe a digital camera to take picture of your designs on the whiteboard.
                                             
                                            If you're not all collocated then you might need some software like maybe: OnTime (www.axosoft.com - customizable enough for agile projects), target process ( www.targetprocess.com - more an XP tool) or others like ScrumWorks (www.danube.com ).
                                             
                                            Thanks,


                                             
                                            On 10/3/06, Steven Gordon <sgordonphd@...> wrote:

                                            Index cards, pens, pencils, white boards, bulletin boards, large
                                            pieces of paper, markers, etc.

                                            On 10/3/06, Sarat Kumar Swain < swainsarat@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Hi there,
                                            > I am new to scrum and my company is planning to adopt to this methods for
                                            > our projects. However, my team is thinking to start practicing so that we
                                            > can ask management to formaly accept it sooner. Would you suggest some tools
                                            > to manage product backlogs, sprint backlogs and sprint burndown charts etc.
                                            > ? I see that Ken used excel in his examples, any other tool that can help ?
                                            >
                                            > Thank you
                                            > Sarat K. Swain
                                            > Team Lead, Boston




                                            --
                                            Dan Bunea
                                            http://danbunea.blogspot.com
                                          • Hunt, Brandon
                                            Ha! That made my morning. Thanks Otis. Brandon ________________________________ From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Oct 5, 2006

                                              Ha!  That made my morning.  Thanks Otis.

                                               

                                              Brandon

                                               


                                              From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Otis Bricker
                                              Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 5:47 PM
                                              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Critique of Agile Processes

                                               

                                              I am not all that up-to-date on emerging methods. What is Prince 2? All
                                              I can come up with is " the methodology formerly known as Prince".

                                              Otis B.


                                            • mnbluesguy
                                              Here is a link for Ken Schwaber Visits Google http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7230144396191025011
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Oct 18, 2006
                                                Here is a link for "Ken Schwaber Visits Google"

                                                http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7230144396191025011
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