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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Critique of Agile Processes

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  • Gregor Dodson
    True. The person who forwarded it to me (last week some time) is also wary of agile, and is in fact wary of pretty much anything managerial. He s a
    Message 1 of 28 , Oct 2, 2006
      True. The person who forwarded it to me (last week some time) is also wary of agile, and is in fact wary of pretty much anything 'managerial.' He's a developer's developer. I often sense the same vibe from Joel on Software fanboys. It's a very coder-centric view of the world that de-emphasizes the human aspect of software development.

      On 10/2/06, Stephen Bobick <sbobick2@...> wrote:

      I think it's more than a troll.  I think it is a (self-)justification for rejecting agile practices and published with the intent of convincing others to reject agile practices as well.  The person who forwarded the link to me seemed to agree with a lot of the points (he is interested in agile dev but very wary of it).

      On 10/2/06, Gregor Dodson < notacrime@...> wrote:

      I agree with the Steves. The stuff he found frustrating is stuff that agile processes shed light on, not problems that agile processes create.

      It seemed to me like one big long troll.

      .



    • PaulOldfield1@aol.com
      ... There has been fairly extensive comment on this blog entry on various other forums. I m sure other folk can comment on the negative aspects quite
      Message 2 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
         
         
        > A colleague forwarded this to me today.  I don't think it's
        > been mentioned on this forum yet.
         
        There has been fairly extensive comment on this blog entry
        on various other forums.
         
        I'm sure other folk can comment on the negative aspects
        quite adequately without my help.
         
        One interesting observation I make is that the foundations
        of the agile community arose from a minority of organizations
        who had invested considerable effort to improve the way
        they did their work.  This still happens, independent of the
        agile body of knowledge or otherwise.  Of the few cases I
        have looked at where the organization has invested a lot
        in effective ways of improving the way they work, I see a
        pattern starting to emerge.  They regard their hiring process
        as very important.  Their ways of working are very agile.
        Their ways of working are highly tailored to their situation
        and unlike agile 'out of the box' approaches.  They tend not
        to want to call themselves 'agile'.
         
        In my opinion, this is good news about them, more than bad
        news about us.
         
        Paul Oldfield
      • Pete Deemer
        If anyone needs an empirical counterpoint to the posting, Gabby Benefield and I have some summary data from our regular survey of the 600+ people at Yahoo!
        Message 3 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006

          If anyone needs an empirical counterpoint to the posting, Gabby Benefield and I have some summary data from our regular survey of the 600+ people at Yahoo! using Scrum, it’s at the end of this document:

           

          http://www.amdika.com/scrum_primer_1_0.pdf

           


          From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of PaulOldfield1@...
          Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 1:18 PM
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Critique of Agile Processes

           

           

           

          > A colleague forwarded this to me today.  I don't think it's

          > been mentioned on this forum yet.

           

          There has been fairly extensive comment on this blog entry

          on various other forums.

           

          I'm sure other folk can comment on the negative aspects

          quite adequately without my help.

           

          One interesting observation I make is that the foundations

          of the agile community arose from a minority of organizations

          who had invested considerable effort to improve the way

          they did their work.  This still happens, independent of the

          agile body of knowledge or otherwise.  Of the few cases I

          have looked at where the organization has invested a lot

          in effective ways of improving the way they work, I see a

          pattern starting to emerge.  They regard their hiring process

          as very important.  Their ways of working are very agile.

          Their ways of working are highly tailored to their situation

          and unlike agile 'out of the box' approaches.  They tend not

          to want to call themselves 'agile'.

           

          In my opinion, this is good news about them, more than bad

          news about us.

           

          Paul Oldfield

        • Richard Lacher
          Our Agile implementation met up with significant resistance from senior management and competing development groups within the company. The concepts and terms
          Message 4 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
            Our Agile implementation met up with significant resistance from senior management and competing development groups within the company.  The concepts and terms did not go over well.  So we changed strategies to address this by using empirical facts in the way of Lean Six Sigma Control Charts and shifting our terms to "customer focus', and ‘Leaning Out’ our processes.  Management responded much better to us reporting that we are actively refining our processes so that we only perform work that the customer was willing to pay for or that the business required in order to stay viable.  We made a conscious decision to no longer say or use terms such as xp or agile or self-managed to any group that did not first show sincere interest in our successes.


            PaulOldfield1@... wrote:
             
             
            > A colleague forwarded this to me today.  I don't think it's
            > been mentioned on this forum yet.
             
            There has been fairly extensive comment on this blog entry
            on various other forums.
             
            I'm sure other folk can comment on the negative aspects
            quite adequately without my help.
             
            One interesting observation I make is that the foundations
            of the agile community arose from a minority of organizations
            who had invested considerable effort to improve the way
            they did their work.  This still happens, independent of the
            agile body of knowledge or otherwise.  Of the few cases I
            have looked at where the organization has invested a lot
            in effective ways of improving the way they work, I see a
            pattern starting to emerge.  They regard their hiring process
            as very important.  Their ways of working are very agile.
            Their ways of working are highly tailored to their situation
            and unlike agile 'out of the box' approaches.  They tend not
            to want to call themselves 'agile'.
             
            In my opinion, this is good news about them, more than bad
            news about us.
             
            Paul Oldfield


            Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.

          • Paul Beckford
            Hi All, It gets worse, Here are links to a series of articles that claims (amongst other things) that Agile just doesn t understand people:
            Message 5 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
              Hi All,

              It gets worse,

              Here are links to a series of articles that claims (amongst other
              things) that Agile just doesn't understand people:

              http://www.claretyconsulting.com/it/comments/agile-enough-is-enough/2006-06-26/
              http://www.claretyconsulting.com/it/comments/agile-fees-feeding-frenzy/2006-07-27/
              http://www.claretyconsulting.com/it/comments/agile-scrum-fails-to-get-to-grips-with-human-psychology/2006-08-17/


              Worst still, the blogger has deleted my posts and banned me from posting
              because chose to point out that the he as a commercial interest in
              deriding Agile. He is using his blog to promote his PRINCE2 based
              Project management Consultancy by deriding Agile!

              I guess one way to look at it is if Agile is attracting FUD like this,
              then it must be making an impact.

              BTW since I've been barred from the site, it wouldn't bother me in the
              slightest if others chose to let Mr Brady know what they think about his
              negative PR campaign :^).

              Paul.

              Richard Lacher wrote:

              > Our Agile implementation met up with significant resistance from
              > senior management and competing development groups within the company.
              > The concepts and terms did not go over well. So we changed strategies
              > to address this by using empirical facts in the way of Lean Six Sigma
              > Control Charts and shifting our terms to "customer focus', and
              > ‘Leaning Out’ our processes. Management responded much better to us
              > reporting that we are actively refining our processes so that we only
              > perform work that the customer was willing to pay for or that the
              > business required in order to stay viable. We made a conscious
              > decision to no longer say or use terms such as xp or agile or
              > self-managed to any group that did not first show sincere interest in
              > our successes.
              >
              >
              > */PaulOldfield1@.../* wrote:
              >
              > > A colleague forwarded this to me today. I don't think it's
              > > been mentioned on this forum yet.
              > There has been fairly extensive comment on this blog entry
              > on various other forums.
              > I'm sure other folk can comment on the negative aspects
              > quite adequately without my help.
              > One interesting observation I make is that the foundations
              > of the agile community arose from a minority of organizations
              > who had invested considerable effort to improve the way
              > they did their work. This still happens, independent of the
              > agile body of knowledge or otherwise. Of the few cases I
              > have looked at where the organization has invested a lot
              > in effective ways of improving the way they work, I see a
              > pattern starting to emerge. They regard their hiring process
              > as very important. Their ways of working are very agile.
              > Their ways of working are highly tailored to their situation
              > and unlike agile 'out of the box' approaches. They tend not
              > to want to call themselves 'agile'.
              > In my opinion, this is good news about them, more than bad
              > news about us.
              > Paul Oldfield
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls
              > <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman1/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39663/*http://voice.yahoo.com>
              > to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
              >
            • Ron Jeffries
              Hello Paul, thanks for your note. On Tuesday, October 3, 2006, at ... I m too busy helping people get the software they need, when they need it, to help Mr
              Message 6 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
                Hello Paul, thanks for your note. On Tuesday, October 3, 2006, at
                3:42:13 PM, you wrote:

                > Worst still, the blogger has deleted my posts and banned me from posting
                > because chose to point out that the he as a commercial interest in
                > deriding Agile. He is using his blog to promote his PRINCE2 based
                > Project management Consultancy by deriding Agile!

                I'm too busy helping people get the software they need, when they
                need it, to help Mr Brady with his problems. Maybe some other time.

                Ron Jeffries
                www.XProgramming.com
                Speak the affirmative; emphasize your choice
                by utterly ignoring all that you reject. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
              • Steve Ropa
                I just got some good advice from Mike about this. His point was that responding to this kind of stuff just encourages them. He s right, but it does annoy me
                Message 7 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
                  I just got some good advice from Mike about this. His point was that
                  responding to this kind of stuff just encourages them. He's right, but it
                  does annoy me to see all of the consultants who are making an honest living
                  teaching Agile and coaching projects, thus helping them be successful,
                  dragged through the mud like this.

                  But maybe that's because some day I hope to be one of those nasty money
                  grubbing consultants.


                  Steve

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Beckford
                  Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 1:42 PM
                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Critique of Agile Processes

                  Hi All,

                  It gets worse,

                  Here are links to a series of articles that claims (amongst other
                  things) that Agile just doesn't understand people:

                  http://www.claretyconsulting.com/it/comments/agile-enough-is-enough/2006-06-
                  26/
                  http://www.claretyconsulting.com/it/comments/agile-fees-feeding-frenzy/2006-
                  07-27/
                  http://www.claretyconsulting.com/it/comments/agile-scrum-fails-to-get-to-gri
                  ps-with-human-psychology/2006-08-17/


                  Worst still, the blogger has deleted my posts and banned me from posting
                  because chose to point out that the he as a commercial interest in
                  deriding Agile. He is using his blog to promote his PRINCE2 based
                  Project management Consultancy by deriding Agile!

                  I guess one way to look at it is if Agile is attracting FUD like this,
                  then it must be making an impact.

                  BTW since I've been barred from the site, it wouldn't bother me in the
                  slightest if others chose to let Mr Brady know what they think about his
                  negative PR campaign :^).

                  Paul.

                  Richard Lacher wrote:

                  > Our Agile implementation met up with significant resistance from
                  > senior management and competing development groups within the company.
                  > The concepts and terms did not go over well. So we changed strategies
                  > to address this by using empirical facts in the way of Lean Six Sigma
                  > Control Charts and shifting our terms to "customer focus', and
                  > ‘Leaning Out’ our processes. Management responded much better to us
                  > reporting that we are actively refining our processes so that we only
                  > perform work that the customer was willing to pay for or that the
                  > business required in order to stay viable. We made a conscious
                  > decision to no longer say or use terms such as xp or agile or
                  > self-managed to any group that did not first show sincere interest in
                  > our successes.
                  >
                  >
                  > */PaulOldfield1@.../* wrote:
                  >
                  > > A colleague forwarded this to me today. I don't think it's
                  > > been mentioned on this forum yet.
                  > There has been fairly extensive comment on this blog entry
                  > on various other forums.
                  > I'm sure other folk can comment on the negative aspects
                  > quite adequately without my help.
                  > One interesting observation I make is that the foundations
                  > of the agile community arose from a minority of organizations
                  > who had invested considerable effort to improve the way
                  > they did their work. This still happens, independent of the
                  > agile body of knowledge or otherwise. Of the few cases I
                  > have looked at where the organization has invested a lot
                  > in effective ways of improving the way they work, I see a
                  > pattern starting to emerge. They regard their hiring process
                  > as very important. Their ways of working are very agile.
                  > Their ways of working are highly tailored to their situation
                  > and unlike agile 'out of the box' approaches. They tend not
                  > to want to call themselves 'agile'.
                  > In my opinion, this is good news about them, more than bad
                  > news about us.
                  > Paul Oldfield
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls
                  >
                  <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman1/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/ev
                  t=39663/*http://voice.yahoo.com>
                  > to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
                  >





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                • Sarat Kumar Swain
                  Hi there, I am new to scrum and my company is planning to adopt to this methods for our projects. However, my team is thinking to start practicing so that we
                  Message 8 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
                    Hi there,
                     I am new to scrum and my company is planning to adopt to this methods for our projects. However, my team is thinking to start practicing so that we can ask management to formaly accept it sooner. Would you suggest some tools to manage product backlogs, sprint backlogs and sprint burndown charts etc. ? I see that Ken used excel in his examples, any other tool that can help ?

                    Thank you
                    Sarat K. Swain
                    Team Lead, Boston

                  • Steve Ropa
                    Ok, I ll be the first responder on this one. First, how big is your team, and are they collocated? If they are, and it isn t a massive team, I highly
                    Message 9 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006

                      Ok, I’ll be the first responder on this one.

                       

                      First, how big is your team, and are they collocated?  If they are, and it isn’t a massive team, I highly recommend you start with index cards and bulletin boards.

                       

                      If they aren’t, or it’s a massive team, I suggest starting with a subset that is collocated, if you can get away with it….and use index cards and bulletin boards.  After you’ve gotten into the swing of things, if you find you are needing a tool, then look at the many options available, with an eye to the one that fits *your team’s* needs first.

                       

                       

                       

                      Steve

                       


                      From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Sarat Kumar Swain
                      Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 2:12 PM
                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Managing product backlog/sprint backlog tool

                       

                      Hi there,
                       I am new to scrum and my company is planning to adopt to this methods for our projects. However, my team is thinking to start practicing so that we can ask management to formaly accept it sooner. Would you suggest some tools to manage product backlogs, sprint backlogs and sprint burndown charts etc. ? I see that Ken used excel in his examples, any other tool that can help ?

                      Thank you
                      Sarat K. Swain
                      Team Lead, Boston

                    • Steven Gordon
                      Index cards, pens, pencils, white boards, bulletin boards, large pieces of paper, markers, etc.
                      Message 10 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
                        Index cards, pens, pencils, white boards, bulletin boards, large
                        pieces of paper, markers, etc.

                        On 10/3/06, Sarat Kumar Swain <swainsarat@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi there,
                        > I am new to scrum and my company is planning to adopt to this methods for
                        > our projects. However, my team is thinking to start practicing so that we
                        > can ask management to formaly accept it sooner. Would you suggest some tools
                        > to manage product backlogs, sprint backlogs and sprint burndown charts etc.
                        > ? I see that Ken used excel in his examples, any other tool that can help ?
                        >
                        > Thank you
                        > Sarat K. Swain
                        > Team Lead, Boston
                      • Ilja Preuss
                        ... For burn charts, flip chart paper and thick pens in striking colors (red, green, light blue...) work best in my experience. Cheers, Ilja
                        Message 11 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
                          Sarat Kumar Swain schrieb:
                          > Would you
                          > suggest some tools to manage product backlogs, sprint backlogs and
                          > sprint burndown charts etc. ?

                          For burn charts, flip chart paper and thick pens in striking colors
                          (red, green, light blue...) work best in my experience.

                          Cheers, Ilja
                        • Ron Jeffries
                          Hello Steven, thanks for your email. On Tuesday, October 3, 2006, at ... Thanks for saving me the time. ;- Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Talent determines
                          Message 12 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
                            Hello Steven, thanks for your email. On Tuesday, October 3, 2006, at
                            4:31:06 PM, you wrote:

                            > Index cards, pens, pencils, white boards, bulletin boards, large
                            > pieces of paper, markers, etc.

                            Thanks for saving me the time. ;->

                            Ron Jeffries
                            www.XProgramming.com
                            Talent determines how fast you get good, not how good you get. -- Richard Gabriel
                          • Deb
                            ... that agile ... This is a topic I ve seen coming up a lot, particularly in response to the agile sucks camp. Those of us who have seen it in action know
                            Message 13 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
                              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Gregor Dodson"
                              <notacrime@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I agree with the Steves. The stuff he found frustrating is stuff
                              that agile
                              > processes shed light on, not problems that agile processes create.
                              >
                              > It seemed to me like one big long troll.
                              >

                              This is a topic I've seen coming up a lot, particularly in response to
                              the "agile sucks" camp. Those of us who have seen it in action know
                              just how well Agile does this: reveal problems that older processes
                              (were perhaps designed to) cover up.

                              I could really use an article for InfoQ on how Agile methods surface
                              problems and how this can be a good thing. In a workplace where "quiet
                              and calm" is good and "problems" are bad, this effect of revealing
                              issues can be very disturbing. People experiencing Agile for the first
                              time or seeing it from the outside, if they can reframe their
                              understanding of obstacles, could come to understand how they present
                              opportunities that require energy but can pay off.

                              I'm smiling to myself, remembering a recent comment that a good
                              process won't fix bad people... yes, there are some things revealed
                              that only represent opportunities to, um, move on (either the obstacle
                              or the coach :-)

                              Any takers? I hope it's ok to request this kind of input on this
                              list... it seems like a good place to ask.

                              thanks
                              deb

                              --
                              Deborah Hartmann
                              Agile Community Editor
                              InfoQ.com
                            • Sarat Kumar Swain
                              Thank you Friends. We ll start with the below tools :) Regards Sarat ... From: Ron Jeffries To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                              Message 14 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
                                Thank you Friends. We'll start with the below tools :)

                                Regards
                                Sarat


                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...>
                                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2006 5:50:53 PM
                                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Managing product backlog/sprint backlog tool

                                Hello Steven, thanks for your email. On Tuesday, October 3, 2006, at
                                4:31:06 PM, you wrote:

                                > Index cards, pens, pencils, white boards, bulletin boards, large
                                > pieces of paper, markers, etc.

                                Thanks for saving me the time. ;->

                                Ron Jeffries
                                www.XProgramming. com
                                Talent determines how fast you get good, not how good you get. -- Richard Gabriel


                              • PaulOldfield1@aol.com
                                (responding to Paul B) ... So it probably isn t a good idea to promote his site by having links to it in your posting. A dumb spider won t tell the difference
                                Message 15 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
                                  (responding to Paul B)
                                   
                                  > BTW since I've been barred from the site, it wouldn't bother me in the
                                  > slightest if others chose to let Mr Brady know what they think about
                                  his
                                  > negative PR campaign :^).
                                   
                                  So it probably isn't a good idea to promote his site by having
                                  links to it in your posting. A dumb spider won't tell the difference
                                  between a "go there" and "don't go there" recommendation.
                                   
                                  Paul Oldfield
                                   
                                • beckfordp
                                  ... the ... about his ... Hi Paul, yes, I ve strugled with this one too. art ofme thinks that such mis-information should not be allowed to stand
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Oct 4, 2006
                                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, PaulOldfield1@... wrote:
                                    >
                                    > (responding to Paul B)
                                    >
                                    > > BTW since I've been barred from the site, it wouldn't bother me in
                                    the
                                    > > slightest if others chose to let Mr Brady know what they think
                                    about his
                                    > > negative PR campaign :^).
                                    >
                                    > So it probably isn't a good idea to promote his site by having
                                    > links to it in your posting. A dumb spider won't tell the difference
                                    > between a "go there" and "don't go there" recommendation.
                                    >
                                    > Paul Oldfield
                                    >
                                    Hi Paul,

                                    yes, I've strugled with this one too. art ofme thinks that such
                                    mis-information should not be allowed to stand unchallenged, and the
                                    other half of me fells that he should not be given the oxygen of
                                    publicity.

                                    On balance,I suppose you are right.

                                    Paul.
                                  • keiffster
                                    An interesting article, especially written by some one who has limited background in development but mainly comes from a Prince 2 inspired ( or should that be
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Oct 4, 2006
                                      An interesting article, especially written by some one who has limited
                                      background in development but mainly comes from a Prince 2 inspired (
                                      or should that be insipid )management background.

                                      He obviously feels threatened by Agile, and is definately using it as
                                      self promotion. He's a Prince 2 man through and through.

                                      Unfortunately in the UK Prince 2 has taken quite a hold, and a vast
                                      amount of projects are advertised as requiring Prince 2 Certified
                                      Project/Programme Managers.

                                      He's had a wonderful life delivering major programmes using Prince 2 (
                                      so his website says ), and decided to divest all the experience in his
                                      own consultancy. I actually know some of the more
                                      technical/development staff on some of the projects he mentioned and
                                      Prince 2 was very much the high level management controlling process,
                                      the developement teams on some of the work, where a little more
                                      'agile' than he knows.

                                      Regardless, only with active criticisim such as this can we strengthen
                                      the argument for Agile methods.

                                      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Bobick"
                                      <sbobick2@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > A colleague forwarded this to me today. I don't think it's been
                                      mentioned
                                      > on this forum yet.
                                      >
                                      > http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/09/good-agile-bad-agile_27.html
                                      >
                                      > -- Stephen
                                      >
                                    • Otis Bricker
                                      I am not all that up-to-date on emerging methods. What is Prince 2? All I can come up with is the methodology formerly known as Prince . Otis B.
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Oct 4, 2006
                                        I am not all that up-to-date on emerging methods. What is Prince 2? All
                                        I can come up with is " the methodology formerly known as Prince".

                                        Otis B.

                                        keiffster wrote:
                                        >
                                        > An interesting article, especially written by some one who has limited
                                        > background in development but mainly comes from a Prince 2 inspired (
                                        > or should that be insipid )management background.
                                        >
                                        > He obviously feels threatened by Agile, and is definately using it as
                                        > self promotion. He's a Prince 2 man through and through.
                                        >
                                        > Unfortunately in the UK Prince 2 has taken quite a hold, and a vast
                                        > amount of projects are advertised as requiring Prince 2 Certified
                                        > Project/Programme Managers.
                                        >
                                        > He's had a wonderful life delivering major programmes using Prince 2 (
                                        > so his website says ), and decided to divest all the experience in his
                                        > own consultancy. I actually know some of the more
                                        > technical/development staff on some of the projects he mentioned and
                                        > Prince 2 was very much the high level management controlling process,
                                        > the developement teams on some of the work, where a little more
                                        > 'agile' than he knows.
                                        >
                                        > Regardless, only with active criticisim such as this can we strengthen
                                        > the argument for Agile methods.
                                        >
                                        > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                        > <mailto:scrumdevelopment%40yahoogroups.com>, "Stephen Bobick"
                                        > <sbobick2@...> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > A colleague forwarded this to me today. I don't think it's been
                                        > mentioned
                                        > > on this forum yet.
                                        > >
                                        > > http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/09/good-agile-bad-agile_27.html
                                        > <http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/09/good-agile-bad-agile_27.html>
                                        > >
                                        > > -- Stephen
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • Dave Hostick
                                        I m not a Prince 2 man - however, a lot of customers are. The way I look at it is this: If the customer requires the red tape and the names of those who can be
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Oct 5, 2006
                                          I'm not a Prince 2 man - however, a lot of customers are.

                                          The way I look at it is this:

                                          If the customer requires the red tape and the names of those who can
                                          be blamed for failure, along with the issues and risks logs to record
                                          evidence, then Prince 2 is for him - he is expecting to fail, and
                                          needs the insurance to save his job.

                                          All we do, when the customer insists, is fit-in with Prince 2 as the
                                          high level where Scrum is used to manage the (unpredictable)
                                          developments; as a supplier with expected delivery at the end of the
                                          sprints. This gives the customer his gantt chart at a more more higher
                                          static level - the agile bits hidden from the customer (except the
                                          user seconded to the project, who just thinks the agile method is
                                          normal anyway).

                                          Don't get hung up on Prince 2 - It has its place for those who can't
                                          do agile, who can't manage software developments; who fail when they
                                          do, and make us look good.

                                          Dave



                                          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "keiffster" <keith@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > An interesting article, especially written by some one who has limited
                                          > background in development but mainly comes from a Prince 2 inspired (
                                          > or should that be insipid )management background.
                                          >
                                          > He obviously feels threatened by Agile, and is definately using it as
                                          > self promotion. He's a Prince 2 man through and through.
                                          >
                                          > Unfortunately in the UK Prince 2 has taken quite a hold, and a vast
                                          > amount of projects are advertised as requiring Prince 2 Certified
                                          > Project/Programme Managers.
                                          >
                                          > He's had a wonderful life delivering major programmes using Prince 2 (
                                          > so his website says ), and decided to divest all the experience in his
                                          > own consultancy. I actually know some of the more
                                          > technical/development staff on some of the projects he mentioned and
                                          > Prince 2 was very much the high level management controlling process,
                                          > the developement teams on some of the work, where a little more
                                          > 'agile' than he knows.
                                          >
                                          > Regardless, only with active criticisim such as this can we strengthen
                                          > the argument for Agile methods.
                                          >
                                          > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Bobick"
                                          > <sbobick2@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > A colleague forwarded this to me today. I don't think it's been
                                          > mentioned
                                          > > on this forum yet.
                                          > >
                                          > > http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/09/good-agile-bad-agile_27.html
                                          > >
                                          > > -- Stephen
                                          > >
                                          >
                                        • Lasse Koskela
                                          ... Methodology? Prince 2 is not a university in New Jersey? - Lasse [walking away before the hilarity police hits the scene...]
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Oct 5, 2006
                                            On 10/5/06, Otis Bricker <obricker@...> wrote:
                                            > I am not all that up-to-date on emerging methods. What is Prince 2? All
                                            > I can come up with is " the methodology formerly known as Prince".

                                            Methodology? "Prince 2" is not a university in New Jersey?

                                            - Lasse [walking away before the hilarity police hits the scene...]
                                          • Dan Bunea
                                            As a continuation to what Steven said, if you (your teams) and your customers are collocated there s nothing better then : index card, pens , pencils,
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Oct 5, 2006
                                              As a continuation to what Steven said, if you (your teams) and your customers are collocated there's nothing better then : index card, pens , pencils, whiteboard, markers,  .... and maybe a digital camera to take picture of your designs on the whiteboard.
                                               
                                              If you're not all collocated then you might need some software like maybe: OnTime (www.axosoft.com - customizable enough for agile projects), target process ( www.targetprocess.com - more an XP tool) or others like ScrumWorks (www.danube.com ).
                                               
                                              Thanks,


                                               
                                              On 10/3/06, Steven Gordon <sgordonphd@...> wrote:

                                              Index cards, pens, pencils, white boards, bulletin boards, large
                                              pieces of paper, markers, etc.

                                              On 10/3/06, Sarat Kumar Swain < swainsarat@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Hi there,
                                              > I am new to scrum and my company is planning to adopt to this methods for
                                              > our projects. However, my team is thinking to start practicing so that we
                                              > can ask management to formaly accept it sooner. Would you suggest some tools
                                              > to manage product backlogs, sprint backlogs and sprint burndown charts etc.
                                              > ? I see that Ken used excel in his examples, any other tool that can help ?
                                              >
                                              > Thank you
                                              > Sarat K. Swain
                                              > Team Lead, Boston




                                              --
                                              Dan Bunea
                                              http://danbunea.blogspot.com
                                            • Hunt, Brandon
                                              Ha! That made my morning. Thanks Otis. Brandon ________________________________ From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Oct 5, 2006

                                                Ha!  That made my morning.  Thanks Otis.

                                                 

                                                Brandon

                                                 


                                                From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Otis Bricker
                                                Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 5:47 PM
                                                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Critique of Agile Processes

                                                 

                                                I am not all that up-to-date on emerging methods. What is Prince 2? All
                                                I can come up with is " the methodology formerly known as Prince".

                                                Otis B.


                                              • mnbluesguy
                                                Here is a link for Ken Schwaber Visits Google http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7230144396191025011
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Oct 18, 2006
                                                  Here is a link for "Ken Schwaber Visits Google"

                                                  http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7230144396191025011
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