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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Critique of Agile Processes

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  • Stephen Bobick
    I think it s more than a troll. I think it is a (self-)justification for rejecting agile practices and published with the intent of convincing others to
    Message 1 of 28 , Oct 2, 2006
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      I think it's more than a troll.  I think it is a (self-)justification for rejecting agile practices and published with the intent of convincing others to reject agile practices as well.  The person who forwarded the link to me seemed to agree with a lot of the points (he is interested in agile dev but very wary of it).

      On 10/2/06, Gregor Dodson <notacrime@...> wrote:

      I agree with the Steves. The stuff he found frustrating is stuff that agile processes shed light on, not problems that agile processes create.

      It seemed to me like one big long troll.

      .


    • Gregor Dodson
      True. The person who forwarded it to me (last week some time) is also wary of agile, and is in fact wary of pretty much anything managerial. He s a
      Message 2 of 28 , Oct 2, 2006
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        True. The person who forwarded it to me (last week some time) is also wary of agile, and is in fact wary of pretty much anything 'managerial.' He's a developer's developer. I often sense the same vibe from Joel on Software fanboys. It's a very coder-centric view of the world that de-emphasizes the human aspect of software development.

        On 10/2/06, Stephen Bobick <sbobick2@...> wrote:

        I think it's more than a troll.  I think it is a (self-)justification for rejecting agile practices and published with the intent of convincing others to reject agile practices as well.  The person who forwarded the link to me seemed to agree with a lot of the points (he is interested in agile dev but very wary of it).

        On 10/2/06, Gregor Dodson < notacrime@...> wrote:

        I agree with the Steves. The stuff he found frustrating is stuff that agile processes shed light on, not problems that agile processes create.

        It seemed to me like one big long troll.

        .



      • PaulOldfield1@aol.com
        ... There has been fairly extensive comment on this blog entry on various other forums. I m sure other folk can comment on the negative aspects quite
        Message 3 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
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          > A colleague forwarded this to me today.  I don't think it's
          > been mentioned on this forum yet.
           
          There has been fairly extensive comment on this blog entry
          on various other forums.
           
          I'm sure other folk can comment on the negative aspects
          quite adequately without my help.
           
          One interesting observation I make is that the foundations
          of the agile community arose from a minority of organizations
          who had invested considerable effort to improve the way
          they did their work.  This still happens, independent of the
          agile body of knowledge or otherwise.  Of the few cases I
          have looked at where the organization has invested a lot
          in effective ways of improving the way they work, I see a
          pattern starting to emerge.  They regard their hiring process
          as very important.  Their ways of working are very agile.
          Their ways of working are highly tailored to their situation
          and unlike agile 'out of the box' approaches.  They tend not
          to want to call themselves 'agile'.
           
          In my opinion, this is good news about them, more than bad
          news about us.
           
          Paul Oldfield
        • Pete Deemer
          If anyone needs an empirical counterpoint to the posting, Gabby Benefield and I have some summary data from our regular survey of the 600+ people at Yahoo!
          Message 4 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
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            If anyone needs an empirical counterpoint to the posting, Gabby Benefield and I have some summary data from our regular survey of the 600+ people at Yahoo! using Scrum, it’s at the end of this document:

             

            http://www.amdika.com/scrum_primer_1_0.pdf

             


            From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of PaulOldfield1@...
            Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 1:18 PM
            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Critique of Agile Processes

             

             

             

            > A colleague forwarded this to me today.  I don't think it's

            > been mentioned on this forum yet.

             

            There has been fairly extensive comment on this blog entry

            on various other forums.

             

            I'm sure other folk can comment on the negative aspects

            quite adequately without my help.

             

            One interesting observation I make is that the foundations

            of the agile community arose from a minority of organizations

            who had invested considerable effort to improve the way

            they did their work.  This still happens, independent of the

            agile body of knowledge or otherwise.  Of the few cases I

            have looked at where the organization has invested a lot

            in effective ways of improving the way they work, I see a

            pattern starting to emerge.  They regard their hiring process

            as very important.  Their ways of working are very agile.

            Their ways of working are highly tailored to their situation

            and unlike agile 'out of the box' approaches.  They tend not

            to want to call themselves 'agile'.

             

            In my opinion, this is good news about them, more than bad

            news about us.

             

            Paul Oldfield

          • Richard Lacher
            Our Agile implementation met up with significant resistance from senior management and competing development groups within the company. The concepts and terms
            Message 5 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
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              Our Agile implementation met up with significant resistance from senior management and competing development groups within the company.  The concepts and terms did not go over well.  So we changed strategies to address this by using empirical facts in the way of Lean Six Sigma Control Charts and shifting our terms to "customer focus', and ‘Leaning Out’ our processes.  Management responded much better to us reporting that we are actively refining our processes so that we only perform work that the customer was willing to pay for or that the business required in order to stay viable.  We made a conscious decision to no longer say or use terms such as xp or agile or self-managed to any group that did not first show sincere interest in our successes.


              PaulOldfield1@... wrote:
               
               
              > A colleague forwarded this to me today.  I don't think it's
              > been mentioned on this forum yet.
               
              There has been fairly extensive comment on this blog entry
              on various other forums.
               
              I'm sure other folk can comment on the negative aspects
              quite adequately without my help.
               
              One interesting observation I make is that the foundations
              of the agile community arose from a minority of organizations
              who had invested considerable effort to improve the way
              they did their work.  This still happens, independent of the
              agile body of knowledge or otherwise.  Of the few cases I
              have looked at where the organization has invested a lot
              in effective ways of improving the way they work, I see a
              pattern starting to emerge.  They regard their hiring process
              as very important.  Their ways of working are very agile.
              Their ways of working are highly tailored to their situation
              and unlike agile 'out of the box' approaches.  They tend not
              to want to call themselves 'agile'.
               
              In my opinion, this is good news about them, more than bad
              news about us.
               
              Paul Oldfield


              Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.

            • Paul Beckford
              Hi All, It gets worse, Here are links to a series of articles that claims (amongst other things) that Agile just doesn t understand people:
              Message 6 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
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                Hi All,

                It gets worse,

                Here are links to a series of articles that claims (amongst other
                things) that Agile just doesn't understand people:

                http://www.claretyconsulting.com/it/comments/agile-enough-is-enough/2006-06-26/
                http://www.claretyconsulting.com/it/comments/agile-fees-feeding-frenzy/2006-07-27/
                http://www.claretyconsulting.com/it/comments/agile-scrum-fails-to-get-to-grips-with-human-psychology/2006-08-17/


                Worst still, the blogger has deleted my posts and banned me from posting
                because chose to point out that the he as a commercial interest in
                deriding Agile. He is using his blog to promote his PRINCE2 based
                Project management Consultancy by deriding Agile!

                I guess one way to look at it is if Agile is attracting FUD like this,
                then it must be making an impact.

                BTW since I've been barred from the site, it wouldn't bother me in the
                slightest if others chose to let Mr Brady know what they think about his
                negative PR campaign :^).

                Paul.

                Richard Lacher wrote:

                > Our Agile implementation met up with significant resistance from
                > senior management and competing development groups within the company.
                > The concepts and terms did not go over well. So we changed strategies
                > to address this by using empirical facts in the way of Lean Six Sigma
                > Control Charts and shifting our terms to "customer focus', and
                > ‘Leaning Out’ our processes. Management responded much better to us
                > reporting that we are actively refining our processes so that we only
                > perform work that the customer was willing to pay for or that the
                > business required in order to stay viable. We made a conscious
                > decision to no longer say or use terms such as xp or agile or
                > self-managed to any group that did not first show sincere interest in
                > our successes.
                >
                >
                > */PaulOldfield1@.../* wrote:
                >
                > > A colleague forwarded this to me today. I don't think it's
                > > been mentioned on this forum yet.
                > There has been fairly extensive comment on this blog entry
                > on various other forums.
                > I'm sure other folk can comment on the negative aspects
                > quite adequately without my help.
                > One interesting observation I make is that the foundations
                > of the agile community arose from a minority of organizations
                > who had invested considerable effort to improve the way
                > they did their work. This still happens, independent of the
                > agile body of knowledge or otherwise. Of the few cases I
                > have looked at where the organization has invested a lot
                > in effective ways of improving the way they work, I see a
                > pattern starting to emerge. They regard their hiring process
                > as very important. Their ways of working are very agile.
                > Their ways of working are highly tailored to their situation
                > and unlike agile 'out of the box' approaches. They tend not
                > to want to call themselves 'agile'.
                > In my opinion, this is good news about them, more than bad
                > news about us.
                > Paul Oldfield
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls
                > <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman1/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39663/*http://voice.yahoo.com>
                > to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
                >
              • Ron Jeffries
                Hello Paul, thanks for your note. On Tuesday, October 3, 2006, at ... I m too busy helping people get the software they need, when they need it, to help Mr
                Message 7 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
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                  Hello Paul, thanks for your note. On Tuesday, October 3, 2006, at
                  3:42:13 PM, you wrote:

                  > Worst still, the blogger has deleted my posts and banned me from posting
                  > because chose to point out that the he as a commercial interest in
                  > deriding Agile. He is using his blog to promote his PRINCE2 based
                  > Project management Consultancy by deriding Agile!

                  I'm too busy helping people get the software they need, when they
                  need it, to help Mr Brady with his problems. Maybe some other time.

                  Ron Jeffries
                  www.XProgramming.com
                  Speak the affirmative; emphasize your choice
                  by utterly ignoring all that you reject. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
                • Steve Ropa
                  I just got some good advice from Mike about this. His point was that responding to this kind of stuff just encourages them. He s right, but it does annoy me
                  Message 8 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
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                    I just got some good advice from Mike about this. His point was that
                    responding to this kind of stuff just encourages them. He's right, but it
                    does annoy me to see all of the consultants who are making an honest living
                    teaching Agile and coaching projects, thus helping them be successful,
                    dragged through the mud like this.

                    But maybe that's because some day I hope to be one of those nasty money
                    grubbing consultants.


                    Steve

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Beckford
                    Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 1:42 PM
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Critique of Agile Processes

                    Hi All,

                    It gets worse,

                    Here are links to a series of articles that claims (amongst other
                    things) that Agile just doesn't understand people:

                    http://www.claretyconsulting.com/it/comments/agile-enough-is-enough/2006-06-
                    26/
                    http://www.claretyconsulting.com/it/comments/agile-fees-feeding-frenzy/2006-
                    07-27/
                    http://www.claretyconsulting.com/it/comments/agile-scrum-fails-to-get-to-gri
                    ps-with-human-psychology/2006-08-17/


                    Worst still, the blogger has deleted my posts and banned me from posting
                    because chose to point out that the he as a commercial interest in
                    deriding Agile. He is using his blog to promote his PRINCE2 based
                    Project management Consultancy by deriding Agile!

                    I guess one way to look at it is if Agile is attracting FUD like this,
                    then it must be making an impact.

                    BTW since I've been barred from the site, it wouldn't bother me in the
                    slightest if others chose to let Mr Brady know what they think about his
                    negative PR campaign :^).

                    Paul.

                    Richard Lacher wrote:

                    > Our Agile implementation met up with significant resistance from
                    > senior management and competing development groups within the company.
                    > The concepts and terms did not go over well. So we changed strategies
                    > to address this by using empirical facts in the way of Lean Six Sigma
                    > Control Charts and shifting our terms to "customer focus', and
                    > ‘Leaning Out’ our processes. Management responded much better to us
                    > reporting that we are actively refining our processes so that we only
                    > perform work that the customer was willing to pay for or that the
                    > business required in order to stay viable. We made a conscious
                    > decision to no longer say or use terms such as xp or agile or
                    > self-managed to any group that did not first show sincere interest in
                    > our successes.
                    >
                    >
                    > */PaulOldfield1@.../* wrote:
                    >
                    > > A colleague forwarded this to me today. I don't think it's
                    > > been mentioned on this forum yet.
                    > There has been fairly extensive comment on this blog entry
                    > on various other forums.
                    > I'm sure other folk can comment on the negative aspects
                    > quite adequately without my help.
                    > One interesting observation I make is that the foundations
                    > of the agile community arose from a minority of organizations
                    > who had invested considerable effort to improve the way
                    > they did their work. This still happens, independent of the
                    > agile body of knowledge or otherwise. Of the few cases I
                    > have looked at where the organization has invested a lot
                    > in effective ways of improving the way they work, I see a
                    > pattern starting to emerge. They regard their hiring process
                    > as very important. Their ways of working are very agile.
                    > Their ways of working are highly tailored to their situation
                    > and unlike agile 'out of the box' approaches. They tend not
                    > to want to call themselves 'agile'.
                    > In my opinion, this is good news about them, more than bad
                    > news about us.
                    > Paul Oldfield
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls
                    >
                    <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman1/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/ev
                    t=39663/*http://voice.yahoo.com>
                    > to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
                    >





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                  • Sarat Kumar Swain
                    Hi there, I am new to scrum and my company is planning to adopt to this methods for our projects. However, my team is thinking to start practicing so that we
                    Message 9 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
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                      Hi there,
                       I am new to scrum and my company is planning to adopt to this methods for our projects. However, my team is thinking to start practicing so that we can ask management to formaly accept it sooner. Would you suggest some tools to manage product backlogs, sprint backlogs and sprint burndown charts etc. ? I see that Ken used excel in his examples, any other tool that can help ?

                      Thank you
                      Sarat K. Swain
                      Team Lead, Boston

                    • Steve Ropa
                      Ok, I ll be the first responder on this one. First, how big is your team, and are they collocated? If they are, and it isn t a massive team, I highly
                      Message 10 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
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                        Ok, I’ll be the first responder on this one.

                         

                        First, how big is your team, and are they collocated?  If they are, and it isn’t a massive team, I highly recommend you start with index cards and bulletin boards.

                         

                        If they aren’t, or it’s a massive team, I suggest starting with a subset that is collocated, if you can get away with it….and use index cards and bulletin boards.  After you’ve gotten into the swing of things, if you find you are needing a tool, then look at the many options available, with an eye to the one that fits *your team’s* needs first.

                         

                         

                         

                        Steve

                         


                        From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Sarat Kumar Swain
                        Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 2:12 PM
                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Managing product backlog/sprint backlog tool

                         

                        Hi there,
                         I am new to scrum and my company is planning to adopt to this methods for our projects. However, my team is thinking to start practicing so that we can ask management to formaly accept it sooner. Would you suggest some tools to manage product backlogs, sprint backlogs and sprint burndown charts etc. ? I see that Ken used excel in his examples, any other tool that can help ?

                        Thank you
                        Sarat K. Swain
                        Team Lead, Boston

                      • Steven Gordon
                        Index cards, pens, pencils, white boards, bulletin boards, large pieces of paper, markers, etc.
                        Message 11 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
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                          Index cards, pens, pencils, white boards, bulletin boards, large
                          pieces of paper, markers, etc.

                          On 10/3/06, Sarat Kumar Swain <swainsarat@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi there,
                          > I am new to scrum and my company is planning to adopt to this methods for
                          > our projects. However, my team is thinking to start practicing so that we
                          > can ask management to formaly accept it sooner. Would you suggest some tools
                          > to manage product backlogs, sprint backlogs and sprint burndown charts etc.
                          > ? I see that Ken used excel in his examples, any other tool that can help ?
                          >
                          > Thank you
                          > Sarat K. Swain
                          > Team Lead, Boston
                        • Ilja Preuss
                          ... For burn charts, flip chart paper and thick pens in striking colors (red, green, light blue...) work best in my experience. Cheers, Ilja
                          Message 12 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
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                            Sarat Kumar Swain schrieb:
                            > Would you
                            > suggest some tools to manage product backlogs, sprint backlogs and
                            > sprint burndown charts etc. ?

                            For burn charts, flip chart paper and thick pens in striking colors
                            (red, green, light blue...) work best in my experience.

                            Cheers, Ilja
                          • Ron Jeffries
                            Hello Steven, thanks for your email. On Tuesday, October 3, 2006, at ... Thanks for saving me the time. ;- Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Talent determines
                            Message 13 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
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                              Hello Steven, thanks for your email. On Tuesday, October 3, 2006, at
                              4:31:06 PM, you wrote:

                              > Index cards, pens, pencils, white boards, bulletin boards, large
                              > pieces of paper, markers, etc.

                              Thanks for saving me the time. ;->

                              Ron Jeffries
                              www.XProgramming.com
                              Talent determines how fast you get good, not how good you get. -- Richard Gabriel
                            • Deb
                              ... that agile ... This is a topic I ve seen coming up a lot, particularly in response to the agile sucks camp. Those of us who have seen it in action know
                              Message 14 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
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                                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Gregor Dodson"
                                <notacrime@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I agree with the Steves. The stuff he found frustrating is stuff
                                that agile
                                > processes shed light on, not problems that agile processes create.
                                >
                                > It seemed to me like one big long troll.
                                >

                                This is a topic I've seen coming up a lot, particularly in response to
                                the "agile sucks" camp. Those of us who have seen it in action know
                                just how well Agile does this: reveal problems that older processes
                                (were perhaps designed to) cover up.

                                I could really use an article for InfoQ on how Agile methods surface
                                problems and how this can be a good thing. In a workplace where "quiet
                                and calm" is good and "problems" are bad, this effect of revealing
                                issues can be very disturbing. People experiencing Agile for the first
                                time or seeing it from the outside, if they can reframe their
                                understanding of obstacles, could come to understand how they present
                                opportunities that require energy but can pay off.

                                I'm smiling to myself, remembering a recent comment that a good
                                process won't fix bad people... yes, there are some things revealed
                                that only represent opportunities to, um, move on (either the obstacle
                                or the coach :-)

                                Any takers? I hope it's ok to request this kind of input on this
                                list... it seems like a good place to ask.

                                thanks
                                deb

                                --
                                Deborah Hartmann
                                Agile Community Editor
                                InfoQ.com
                              • Sarat Kumar Swain
                                Thank you Friends. We ll start with the below tools :) Regards Sarat ... From: Ron Jeffries To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                                Message 15 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
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                                  Thank you Friends. We'll start with the below tools :)

                                  Regards
                                  Sarat


                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                  From: Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...>
                                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2006 5:50:53 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Managing product backlog/sprint backlog tool

                                  Hello Steven, thanks for your email. On Tuesday, October 3, 2006, at
                                  4:31:06 PM, you wrote:

                                  > Index cards, pens, pencils, white boards, bulletin boards, large
                                  > pieces of paper, markers, etc.

                                  Thanks for saving me the time. ;->

                                  Ron Jeffries
                                  www.XProgramming. com
                                  Talent determines how fast you get good, not how good you get. -- Richard Gabriel


                                • PaulOldfield1@aol.com
                                  (responding to Paul B) ... So it probably isn t a good idea to promote his site by having links to it in your posting. A dumb spider won t tell the difference
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
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                                    (responding to Paul B)
                                     
                                    > BTW since I've been barred from the site, it wouldn't bother me in the
                                    > slightest if others chose to let Mr Brady know what they think about
                                    his
                                    > negative PR campaign :^).
                                     
                                    So it probably isn't a good idea to promote his site by having
                                    links to it in your posting. A dumb spider won't tell the difference
                                    between a "go there" and "don't go there" recommendation.
                                     
                                    Paul Oldfield
                                     
                                  • beckfordp
                                    ... the ... about his ... Hi Paul, yes, I ve strugled with this one too. art ofme thinks that such mis-information should not be allowed to stand
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Oct 4, 2006
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                                      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, PaulOldfield1@... wrote:
                                      >
                                      > (responding to Paul B)
                                      >
                                      > > BTW since I've been barred from the site, it wouldn't bother me in
                                      the
                                      > > slightest if others chose to let Mr Brady know what they think
                                      about his
                                      > > negative PR campaign :^).
                                      >
                                      > So it probably isn't a good idea to promote his site by having
                                      > links to it in your posting. A dumb spider won't tell the difference
                                      > between a "go there" and "don't go there" recommendation.
                                      >
                                      > Paul Oldfield
                                      >
                                      Hi Paul,

                                      yes, I've strugled with this one too. art ofme thinks that such
                                      mis-information should not be allowed to stand unchallenged, and the
                                      other half of me fells that he should not be given the oxygen of
                                      publicity.

                                      On balance,I suppose you are right.

                                      Paul.
                                    • keiffster
                                      An interesting article, especially written by some one who has limited background in development but mainly comes from a Prince 2 inspired ( or should that be
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Oct 4, 2006
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                                        An interesting article, especially written by some one who has limited
                                        background in development but mainly comes from a Prince 2 inspired (
                                        or should that be insipid )management background.

                                        He obviously feels threatened by Agile, and is definately using it as
                                        self promotion. He's a Prince 2 man through and through.

                                        Unfortunately in the UK Prince 2 has taken quite a hold, and a vast
                                        amount of projects are advertised as requiring Prince 2 Certified
                                        Project/Programme Managers.

                                        He's had a wonderful life delivering major programmes using Prince 2 (
                                        so his website says ), and decided to divest all the experience in his
                                        own consultancy. I actually know some of the more
                                        technical/development staff on some of the projects he mentioned and
                                        Prince 2 was very much the high level management controlling process,
                                        the developement teams on some of the work, where a little more
                                        'agile' than he knows.

                                        Regardless, only with active criticisim such as this can we strengthen
                                        the argument for Agile methods.

                                        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Bobick"
                                        <sbobick2@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > A colleague forwarded this to me today. I don't think it's been
                                        mentioned
                                        > on this forum yet.
                                        >
                                        > http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/09/good-agile-bad-agile_27.html
                                        >
                                        > -- Stephen
                                        >
                                      • Otis Bricker
                                        I am not all that up-to-date on emerging methods. What is Prince 2? All I can come up with is the methodology formerly known as Prince . Otis B.
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Oct 4, 2006
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                                          I am not all that up-to-date on emerging methods. What is Prince 2? All
                                          I can come up with is " the methodology formerly known as Prince".

                                          Otis B.

                                          keiffster wrote:
                                          >
                                          > An interesting article, especially written by some one who has limited
                                          > background in development but mainly comes from a Prince 2 inspired (
                                          > or should that be insipid )management background.
                                          >
                                          > He obviously feels threatened by Agile, and is definately using it as
                                          > self promotion. He's a Prince 2 man through and through.
                                          >
                                          > Unfortunately in the UK Prince 2 has taken quite a hold, and a vast
                                          > amount of projects are advertised as requiring Prince 2 Certified
                                          > Project/Programme Managers.
                                          >
                                          > He's had a wonderful life delivering major programmes using Prince 2 (
                                          > so his website says ), and decided to divest all the experience in his
                                          > own consultancy. I actually know some of the more
                                          > technical/development staff on some of the projects he mentioned and
                                          > Prince 2 was very much the high level management controlling process,
                                          > the developement teams on some of the work, where a little more
                                          > 'agile' than he knows.
                                          >
                                          > Regardless, only with active criticisim such as this can we strengthen
                                          > the argument for Agile methods.
                                          >
                                          > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                          > <mailto:scrumdevelopment%40yahoogroups.com>, "Stephen Bobick"
                                          > <sbobick2@...> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > A colleague forwarded this to me today. I don't think it's been
                                          > mentioned
                                          > > on this forum yet.
                                          > >
                                          > > http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/09/good-agile-bad-agile_27.html
                                          > <http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/09/good-agile-bad-agile_27.html>
                                          > >
                                          > > -- Stephen
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • Dave Hostick
                                          I m not a Prince 2 man - however, a lot of customers are. The way I look at it is this: If the customer requires the red tape and the names of those who can be
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Oct 5, 2006
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                                            I'm not a Prince 2 man - however, a lot of customers are.

                                            The way I look at it is this:

                                            If the customer requires the red tape and the names of those who can
                                            be blamed for failure, along with the issues and risks logs to record
                                            evidence, then Prince 2 is for him - he is expecting to fail, and
                                            needs the insurance to save his job.

                                            All we do, when the customer insists, is fit-in with Prince 2 as the
                                            high level where Scrum is used to manage the (unpredictable)
                                            developments; as a supplier with expected delivery at the end of the
                                            sprints. This gives the customer his gantt chart at a more more higher
                                            static level - the agile bits hidden from the customer (except the
                                            user seconded to the project, who just thinks the agile method is
                                            normal anyway).

                                            Don't get hung up on Prince 2 - It has its place for those who can't
                                            do agile, who can't manage software developments; who fail when they
                                            do, and make us look good.

                                            Dave



                                            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "keiffster" <keith@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > An interesting article, especially written by some one who has limited
                                            > background in development but mainly comes from a Prince 2 inspired (
                                            > or should that be insipid )management background.
                                            >
                                            > He obviously feels threatened by Agile, and is definately using it as
                                            > self promotion. He's a Prince 2 man through and through.
                                            >
                                            > Unfortunately in the UK Prince 2 has taken quite a hold, and a vast
                                            > amount of projects are advertised as requiring Prince 2 Certified
                                            > Project/Programme Managers.
                                            >
                                            > He's had a wonderful life delivering major programmes using Prince 2 (
                                            > so his website says ), and decided to divest all the experience in his
                                            > own consultancy. I actually know some of the more
                                            > technical/development staff on some of the projects he mentioned and
                                            > Prince 2 was very much the high level management controlling process,
                                            > the developement teams on some of the work, where a little more
                                            > 'agile' than he knows.
                                            >
                                            > Regardless, only with active criticisim such as this can we strengthen
                                            > the argument for Agile methods.
                                            >
                                            > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Bobick"
                                            > <sbobick2@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > A colleague forwarded this to me today. I don't think it's been
                                            > mentioned
                                            > > on this forum yet.
                                            > >
                                            > > http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/09/good-agile-bad-agile_27.html
                                            > >
                                            > > -- Stephen
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • Lasse Koskela
                                            ... Methodology? Prince 2 is not a university in New Jersey? - Lasse [walking away before the hilarity police hits the scene...]
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Oct 5, 2006
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                                              On 10/5/06, Otis Bricker <obricker@...> wrote:
                                              > I am not all that up-to-date on emerging methods. What is Prince 2? All
                                              > I can come up with is " the methodology formerly known as Prince".

                                              Methodology? "Prince 2" is not a university in New Jersey?

                                              - Lasse [walking away before the hilarity police hits the scene...]
                                            • Dan Bunea
                                              As a continuation to what Steven said, if you (your teams) and your customers are collocated there s nothing better then : index card, pens , pencils,
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Oct 5, 2006
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                                                As a continuation to what Steven said, if you (your teams) and your customers are collocated there's nothing better then : index card, pens , pencils, whiteboard, markers,  .... and maybe a digital camera to take picture of your designs on the whiteboard.
                                                 
                                                If you're not all collocated then you might need some software like maybe: OnTime (www.axosoft.com - customizable enough for agile projects), target process ( www.targetprocess.com - more an XP tool) or others like ScrumWorks (www.danube.com ).
                                                 
                                                Thanks,


                                                 
                                                On 10/3/06, Steven Gordon <sgordonphd@...> wrote:

                                                Index cards, pens, pencils, white boards, bulletin boards, large
                                                pieces of paper, markers, etc.

                                                On 10/3/06, Sarat Kumar Swain < swainsarat@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Hi there,
                                                > I am new to scrum and my company is planning to adopt to this methods for
                                                > our projects. However, my team is thinking to start practicing so that we
                                                > can ask management to formaly accept it sooner. Would you suggest some tools
                                                > to manage product backlogs, sprint backlogs and sprint burndown charts etc.
                                                > ? I see that Ken used excel in his examples, any other tool that can help ?
                                                >
                                                > Thank you
                                                > Sarat K. Swain
                                                > Team Lead, Boston




                                                --
                                                Dan Bunea
                                                http://danbunea.blogspot.com
                                              • Hunt, Brandon
                                                Ha! That made my morning. Thanks Otis. Brandon ________________________________ From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Oct 5, 2006
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                                                  Ha!  That made my morning.  Thanks Otis.

                                                   

                                                  Brandon

                                                   


                                                  From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Otis Bricker
                                                  Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 5:47 PM
                                                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Critique of Agile Processes

                                                   

                                                  I am not all that up-to-date on emerging methods. What is Prince 2? All
                                                  I can come up with is " the methodology formerly known as Prince".

                                                  Otis B.


                                                • mnbluesguy
                                                  Here is a link for Ken Schwaber Visits Google http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7230144396191025011
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Oct 18, 2006
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                                                    Here is a link for "Ken Schwaber Visits Google"

                                                    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7230144396191025011
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