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RE: [scrumdevelopment] Critique of Agile Processes

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  • Steve Ropa
    You know, there are so many ways to respond to that blog. I guess we could go with the Gee, you seem awfully impressed with yourself response. We could
    Message 1 of 28 , Oct 2, 2006
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      You know, there are so many ways to respond to that blog.  I guess we could go with the “Gee, you seem awfully impressed with yourself” response.  We could take a closer look at his misrepresentation of all things Agile again, but that is getting kind of old. 

       

      What I find fascinating is this new trend of attacking people who are making money using Agile to run projects or teach Agile methods as “snake oil salesmen” and MLM scammers.

       

      Even if I didn’t find Agile to be a superior way to develop software, I certainly wouldn’t begrudge anyone the opportunity to earn a living with it.  Do all those companies and colleges that teach more traditional methods or Object Oriented Design qualify as scammers also?  Is the fact that I am using Agile for my teams, and getting paid for it, make me a snake oil salesman?

       

      I found the post long, mostly boring, and from time to time offensive.  I thought about responding, but then decided I just don’t have the energy.

       

      Steve

       


      From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Stephen Bobick
      Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 3:23 PM
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Critique of Agile Processes

       


      A colleague forwarded this to me today.  I don't think it's been mentioned on this forum yet.

      http://steve- yegge.blogspot. com/2006/ 09/good-agile- bad-agile_ 27.html

      -- Stephen

    • Stephen Bobick
      I think the guy makes *some* good points/challenges here and there, but he also makes a lot of mistakes and misrepresentations. One thing that jumped out at
      Message 2 of 28 , Oct 2, 2006
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        I think the guy makes *some* good points/challenges here and there, but he also makes a lot of mistakes and misrepresentations.  One thing that jumped out at me is the negative affect of pseudo-agile practitioners on our industry.  The more of them that are out there, the more agile gets a bad rap.  It seems to be the nature of our industry for almost anything new:  hype -> bandwagon -> abuse -> bad rap.  For someone to knock agile practices they need to understand them enough to be able to comment on them, and this means at least 6-12 months of patience, learning, and refinement.  When people make half-hearted attempts at learning, don't return to study and refine, and sink back into old habits the result is of course negative.

        -- Stephen


        On 10/2/06, Steve Ropa <theropas2@...> wrote:

        You know, there are so many ways to respond to that blog.  I guess we could go with the "Gee, you seem awfully impressed with yourself" response.  We could take a closer look at his misrepresentation of all things Agile again, but that is getting kind of old. 

         

        What I find fascinating is this new trend of attacking people who are making money using Agile to run projects or teach Agile methods as "snake oil salesmen" and MLM scammers.

         

        Even if I didn't find Agile to be a superior way to develop software, I certainly wouldn't begrudge anyone the opportunity to earn a living with it.  Do all those companies and colleges that teach more traditional methods or Object Oriented Design qualify as scammers also?  Is the fact that I am using Agile for my teams, and getting paid for it, make me a snake oil salesman?

         

        I found the post long, mostly boring, and from time to time offensive.  I thought about responding, but then decided I just don't have the energy.

         

        Steve

         


        From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Bobick
        Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 3:23 PM
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Critique of Agile Processes

         


        A colleague forwarded this to me today.  I don't think it's been mentioned on this forum yet.

        http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/09/good-agile-bad-agile_27.html

        -- Stephen


      • Gregor Dodson
        I agree with the Steves. The stuff he found frustrating is stuff that agile processes shed light on, not problems that agile processes create. It seemed to me
        Message 3 of 28 , Oct 2, 2006
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          I agree with the Steves. The stuff he found frustrating is stuff that agile processes shed light on, not problems that agile processes create.

          It seemed to me like one big long troll.

          On 10/2/06, Stephen Bobick <sbobick2@...> wrote:


          I think the guy makes *some* good points/challenges here and there, but he also makes a lot of mistakes and misrepresentations.  One thing that jumped out at me is the negative affect of pseudo-agile practitioners on our industry.  The more of them that are out there, the more agile gets a bad rap.  It seems to be the nature of our industry for almost anything new:  hype -> bandwagon -> abuse -> bad rap.  For someone to knock agile practices they need to understand them enough to be able to comment on them, and this means at least 6-12 months of patience, learning, and refinement.  When people make half-hearted attempts at learning, don't return to study and refine, and sink back into old habits the result is of course negative.

          -- Stephen


          On 10/2/06, Steve Ropa < theropas2@...> wrote:

          You know, there are so many ways to respond to that blog.  I guess we could go with the "Gee, you seem awfully impressed with yourself" response.  We could take a closer look at his misrepresentation of all things Agile again, but that is getting kind of old. 

           

          What I find fascinating is this new trend of attacking people who are making money using Agile to run projects or teach Agile methods as "snake oil salesmen" and MLM scammers.

           

          Even if I didn't find Agile to be a superior way to develop software, I certainly wouldn't begrudge anyone the opportunity to earn a living with it.  Do all those companies and colleges that teach more traditional methods or Object Oriented Design qualify as scammers also?  Is the fact that I am using Agile for my teams, and getting paid for it, make me a snake oil salesman?

           

          I found the post long, mostly boring, and from time to time offensive.  I thought about responding, but then decided I just don't have the energy.

           

          Steve

           


          From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Bobick
          Sent: Monday, October 02, 2006 3:23 PM
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Critique of Agile Processes

           


          A colleague forwarded this to me today.  I don't think it's been mentioned on this forum yet.

          http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/09/good-agile-bad-agile_27.html

          -- Stephen



        • Stephen Bobick
          I think it s more than a troll. I think it is a (self-)justification for rejecting agile practices and published with the intent of convincing others to
          Message 4 of 28 , Oct 2, 2006
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            I think it's more than a troll.  I think it is a (self-)justification for rejecting agile practices and published with the intent of convincing others to reject agile practices as well.  The person who forwarded the link to me seemed to agree with a lot of the points (he is interested in agile dev but very wary of it).

            On 10/2/06, Gregor Dodson <notacrime@...> wrote:

            I agree with the Steves. The stuff he found frustrating is stuff that agile processes shed light on, not problems that agile processes create.

            It seemed to me like one big long troll.

            .


          • Gregor Dodson
            True. The person who forwarded it to me (last week some time) is also wary of agile, and is in fact wary of pretty much anything managerial. He s a
            Message 5 of 28 , Oct 2, 2006
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              True. The person who forwarded it to me (last week some time) is also wary of agile, and is in fact wary of pretty much anything 'managerial.' He's a developer's developer. I often sense the same vibe from Joel on Software fanboys. It's a very coder-centric view of the world that de-emphasizes the human aspect of software development.

              On 10/2/06, Stephen Bobick <sbobick2@...> wrote:

              I think it's more than a troll.  I think it is a (self-)justification for rejecting agile practices and published with the intent of convincing others to reject agile practices as well.  The person who forwarded the link to me seemed to agree with a lot of the points (he is interested in agile dev but very wary of it).

              On 10/2/06, Gregor Dodson < notacrime@...> wrote:

              I agree with the Steves. The stuff he found frustrating is stuff that agile processes shed light on, not problems that agile processes create.

              It seemed to me like one big long troll.

              .



            • PaulOldfield1@aol.com
              ... There has been fairly extensive comment on this blog entry on various other forums. I m sure other folk can comment on the negative aspects quite
              Message 6 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
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                > A colleague forwarded this to me today.  I don't think it's
                > been mentioned on this forum yet.
                 
                There has been fairly extensive comment on this blog entry
                on various other forums.
                 
                I'm sure other folk can comment on the negative aspects
                quite adequately without my help.
                 
                One interesting observation I make is that the foundations
                of the agile community arose from a minority of organizations
                who had invested considerable effort to improve the way
                they did their work.  This still happens, independent of the
                agile body of knowledge or otherwise.  Of the few cases I
                have looked at where the organization has invested a lot
                in effective ways of improving the way they work, I see a
                pattern starting to emerge.  They regard their hiring process
                as very important.  Their ways of working are very agile.
                Their ways of working are highly tailored to their situation
                and unlike agile 'out of the box' approaches.  They tend not
                to want to call themselves 'agile'.
                 
                In my opinion, this is good news about them, more than bad
                news about us.
                 
                Paul Oldfield
              • Pete Deemer
                If anyone needs an empirical counterpoint to the posting, Gabby Benefield and I have some summary data from our regular survey of the 600+ people at Yahoo!
                Message 7 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
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                  If anyone needs an empirical counterpoint to the posting, Gabby Benefield and I have some summary data from our regular survey of the 600+ people at Yahoo! using Scrum, it’s at the end of this document:

                   

                  http://www.amdika.com/scrum_primer_1_0.pdf

                   


                  From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of PaulOldfield1@...
                  Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 1:18 PM
                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Critique of Agile Processes

                   

                   

                   

                  > A colleague forwarded this to me today.  I don't think it's

                  > been mentioned on this forum yet.

                   

                  There has been fairly extensive comment on this blog entry

                  on various other forums.

                   

                  I'm sure other folk can comment on the negative aspects

                  quite adequately without my help.

                   

                  One interesting observation I make is that the foundations

                  of the agile community arose from a minority of organizations

                  who had invested considerable effort to improve the way

                  they did their work.  This still happens, independent of the

                  agile body of knowledge or otherwise.  Of the few cases I

                  have looked at where the organization has invested a lot

                  in effective ways of improving the way they work, I see a

                  pattern starting to emerge.  They regard their hiring process

                  as very important.  Their ways of working are very agile.

                  Their ways of working are highly tailored to their situation

                  and unlike agile 'out of the box' approaches.  They tend not

                  to want to call themselves 'agile'.

                   

                  In my opinion, this is good news about them, more than bad

                  news about us.

                   

                  Paul Oldfield

                • Richard Lacher
                  Our Agile implementation met up with significant resistance from senior management and competing development groups within the company. The concepts and terms
                  Message 8 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
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                    Our Agile implementation met up with significant resistance from senior management and competing development groups within the company.  The concepts and terms did not go over well.  So we changed strategies to address this by using empirical facts in the way of Lean Six Sigma Control Charts and shifting our terms to "customer focus', and ‘Leaning Out’ our processes.  Management responded much better to us reporting that we are actively refining our processes so that we only perform work that the customer was willing to pay for or that the business required in order to stay viable.  We made a conscious decision to no longer say or use terms such as xp or agile or self-managed to any group that did not first show sincere interest in our successes.


                    PaulOldfield1@... wrote:
                     
                     
                    > A colleague forwarded this to me today.  I don't think it's
                    > been mentioned on this forum yet.
                     
                    There has been fairly extensive comment on this blog entry
                    on various other forums.
                     
                    I'm sure other folk can comment on the negative aspects
                    quite adequately without my help.
                     
                    One interesting observation I make is that the foundations
                    of the agile community arose from a minority of organizations
                    who had invested considerable effort to improve the way
                    they did their work.  This still happens, independent of the
                    agile body of knowledge or otherwise.  Of the few cases I
                    have looked at where the organization has invested a lot
                    in effective ways of improving the way they work, I see a
                    pattern starting to emerge.  They regard their hiring process
                    as very important.  Their ways of working are very agile.
                    Their ways of working are highly tailored to their situation
                    and unlike agile 'out of the box' approaches.  They tend not
                    to want to call themselves 'agile'.
                     
                    In my opinion, this is good news about them, more than bad
                    news about us.
                     
                    Paul Oldfield


                    Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.

                  • Paul Beckford
                    Hi All, It gets worse, Here are links to a series of articles that claims (amongst other things) that Agile just doesn t understand people:
                    Message 9 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
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                      Hi All,

                      It gets worse,

                      Here are links to a series of articles that claims (amongst other
                      things) that Agile just doesn't understand people:

                      http://www.claretyconsulting.com/it/comments/agile-enough-is-enough/2006-06-26/
                      http://www.claretyconsulting.com/it/comments/agile-fees-feeding-frenzy/2006-07-27/
                      http://www.claretyconsulting.com/it/comments/agile-scrum-fails-to-get-to-grips-with-human-psychology/2006-08-17/


                      Worst still, the blogger has deleted my posts and banned me from posting
                      because chose to point out that the he as a commercial interest in
                      deriding Agile. He is using his blog to promote his PRINCE2 based
                      Project management Consultancy by deriding Agile!

                      I guess one way to look at it is if Agile is attracting FUD like this,
                      then it must be making an impact.

                      BTW since I've been barred from the site, it wouldn't bother me in the
                      slightest if others chose to let Mr Brady know what they think about his
                      negative PR campaign :^).

                      Paul.

                      Richard Lacher wrote:

                      > Our Agile implementation met up with significant resistance from
                      > senior management and competing development groups within the company.
                      > The concepts and terms did not go over well. So we changed strategies
                      > to address this by using empirical facts in the way of Lean Six Sigma
                      > Control Charts and shifting our terms to "customer focus', and
                      > ‘Leaning Out’ our processes. Management responded much better to us
                      > reporting that we are actively refining our processes so that we only
                      > perform work that the customer was willing to pay for or that the
                      > business required in order to stay viable. We made a conscious
                      > decision to no longer say or use terms such as xp or agile or
                      > self-managed to any group that did not first show sincere interest in
                      > our successes.
                      >
                      >
                      > */PaulOldfield1@.../* wrote:
                      >
                      > > A colleague forwarded this to me today. I don't think it's
                      > > been mentioned on this forum yet.
                      > There has been fairly extensive comment on this blog entry
                      > on various other forums.
                      > I'm sure other folk can comment on the negative aspects
                      > quite adequately without my help.
                      > One interesting observation I make is that the foundations
                      > of the agile community arose from a minority of organizations
                      > who had invested considerable effort to improve the way
                      > they did their work. This still happens, independent of the
                      > agile body of knowledge or otherwise. Of the few cases I
                      > have looked at where the organization has invested a lot
                      > in effective ways of improving the way they work, I see a
                      > pattern starting to emerge. They regard their hiring process
                      > as very important. Their ways of working are very agile.
                      > Their ways of working are highly tailored to their situation
                      > and unlike agile 'out of the box' approaches. They tend not
                      > to want to call themselves 'agile'.
                      > In my opinion, this is good news about them, more than bad
                      > news about us.
                      > Paul Oldfield
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls
                      > <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman1/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=39663/*http://voice.yahoo.com>
                      > to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
                      >
                    • Ron Jeffries
                      Hello Paul, thanks for your note. On Tuesday, October 3, 2006, at ... I m too busy helping people get the software they need, when they need it, to help Mr
                      Message 10 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
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                        Hello Paul, thanks for your note. On Tuesday, October 3, 2006, at
                        3:42:13 PM, you wrote:

                        > Worst still, the blogger has deleted my posts and banned me from posting
                        > because chose to point out that the he as a commercial interest in
                        > deriding Agile. He is using his blog to promote his PRINCE2 based
                        > Project management Consultancy by deriding Agile!

                        I'm too busy helping people get the software they need, when they
                        need it, to help Mr Brady with his problems. Maybe some other time.

                        Ron Jeffries
                        www.XProgramming.com
                        Speak the affirmative; emphasize your choice
                        by utterly ignoring all that you reject. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
                      • Steve Ropa
                        I just got some good advice from Mike about this. His point was that responding to this kind of stuff just encourages them. He s right, but it does annoy me
                        Message 11 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
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                          I just got some good advice from Mike about this. His point was that
                          responding to this kind of stuff just encourages them. He's right, but it
                          does annoy me to see all of the consultants who are making an honest living
                          teaching Agile and coaching projects, thus helping them be successful,
                          dragged through the mud like this.

                          But maybe that's because some day I hope to be one of those nasty money
                          grubbing consultants.


                          Steve

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Beckford
                          Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 1:42 PM
                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Critique of Agile Processes

                          Hi All,

                          It gets worse,

                          Here are links to a series of articles that claims (amongst other
                          things) that Agile just doesn't understand people:

                          http://www.claretyconsulting.com/it/comments/agile-enough-is-enough/2006-06-
                          26/
                          http://www.claretyconsulting.com/it/comments/agile-fees-feeding-frenzy/2006-
                          07-27/
                          http://www.claretyconsulting.com/it/comments/agile-scrum-fails-to-get-to-gri
                          ps-with-human-psychology/2006-08-17/


                          Worst still, the blogger has deleted my posts and banned me from posting
                          because chose to point out that the he as a commercial interest in
                          deriding Agile. He is using his blog to promote his PRINCE2 based
                          Project management Consultancy by deriding Agile!

                          I guess one way to look at it is if Agile is attracting FUD like this,
                          then it must be making an impact.

                          BTW since I've been barred from the site, it wouldn't bother me in the
                          slightest if others chose to let Mr Brady know what they think about his
                          negative PR campaign :^).

                          Paul.

                          Richard Lacher wrote:

                          > Our Agile implementation met up with significant resistance from
                          > senior management and competing development groups within the company.
                          > The concepts and terms did not go over well. So we changed strategies
                          > to address this by using empirical facts in the way of Lean Six Sigma
                          > Control Charts and shifting our terms to "customer focus', and
                          > ‘Leaning Out’ our processes. Management responded much better to us
                          > reporting that we are actively refining our processes so that we only
                          > perform work that the customer was willing to pay for or that the
                          > business required in order to stay viable. We made a conscious
                          > decision to no longer say or use terms such as xp or agile or
                          > self-managed to any group that did not first show sincere interest in
                          > our successes.
                          >
                          >
                          > */PaulOldfield1@.../* wrote:
                          >
                          > > A colleague forwarded this to me today. I don't think it's
                          > > been mentioned on this forum yet.
                          > There has been fairly extensive comment on this blog entry
                          > on various other forums.
                          > I'm sure other folk can comment on the negative aspects
                          > quite adequately without my help.
                          > One interesting observation I make is that the foundations
                          > of the agile community arose from a minority of organizations
                          > who had invested considerable effort to improve the way
                          > they did their work. This still happens, independent of the
                          > agile body of knowledge or otherwise. Of the few cases I
                          > have looked at where the organization has invested a lot
                          > in effective ways of improving the way they work, I see a
                          > pattern starting to emerge. They regard their hiring process
                          > as very important. Their ways of working are very agile.
                          > Their ways of working are highly tailored to their situation
                          > and unlike agile 'out of the box' approaches. They tend not
                          > to want to call themselves 'agile'.
                          > In my opinion, this is good news about them, more than bad
                          > news about us.
                          > Paul Oldfield
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                          > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls
                          >
                          <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/taglines/postman1/*http://us.rd.yahoo.com/ev
                          t=39663/*http://voice.yahoo.com>
                          > to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
                          >





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                        • Sarat Kumar Swain
                          Hi there, I am new to scrum and my company is planning to adopt to this methods for our projects. However, my team is thinking to start practicing so that we
                          Message 12 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
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                            Hi there,
                             I am new to scrum and my company is planning to adopt to this methods for our projects. However, my team is thinking to start practicing so that we can ask management to formaly accept it sooner. Would you suggest some tools to manage product backlogs, sprint backlogs and sprint burndown charts etc. ? I see that Ken used excel in his examples, any other tool that can help ?

                            Thank you
                            Sarat K. Swain
                            Team Lead, Boston

                          • Steve Ropa
                            Ok, I ll be the first responder on this one. First, how big is your team, and are they collocated? If they are, and it isn t a massive team, I highly
                            Message 13 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
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                              Ok, I’ll be the first responder on this one.

                               

                              First, how big is your team, and are they collocated?  If they are, and it isn’t a massive team, I highly recommend you start with index cards and bulletin boards.

                               

                              If they aren’t, or it’s a massive team, I suggest starting with a subset that is collocated, if you can get away with it….and use index cards and bulletin boards.  After you’ve gotten into the swing of things, if you find you are needing a tool, then look at the many options available, with an eye to the one that fits *your team’s* needs first.

                               

                               

                               

                              Steve

                               


                              From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Sarat Kumar Swain
                              Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 2:12 PM
                              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Managing product backlog/sprint backlog tool

                               

                              Hi there,
                               I am new to scrum and my company is planning to adopt to this methods for our projects. However, my team is thinking to start practicing so that we can ask management to formaly accept it sooner. Would you suggest some tools to manage product backlogs, sprint backlogs and sprint burndown charts etc. ? I see that Ken used excel in his examples, any other tool that can help ?

                              Thank you
                              Sarat K. Swain
                              Team Lead, Boston

                            • Steven Gordon
                              Index cards, pens, pencils, white boards, bulletin boards, large pieces of paper, markers, etc.
                              Message 14 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
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                                Index cards, pens, pencils, white boards, bulletin boards, large
                                pieces of paper, markers, etc.

                                On 10/3/06, Sarat Kumar Swain <swainsarat@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi there,
                                > I am new to scrum and my company is planning to adopt to this methods for
                                > our projects. However, my team is thinking to start practicing so that we
                                > can ask management to formaly accept it sooner. Would you suggest some tools
                                > to manage product backlogs, sprint backlogs and sprint burndown charts etc.
                                > ? I see that Ken used excel in his examples, any other tool that can help ?
                                >
                                > Thank you
                                > Sarat K. Swain
                                > Team Lead, Boston
                              • Ilja Preuss
                                ... For burn charts, flip chart paper and thick pens in striking colors (red, green, light blue...) work best in my experience. Cheers, Ilja
                                Message 15 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
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                                  Sarat Kumar Swain schrieb:
                                  > Would you
                                  > suggest some tools to manage product backlogs, sprint backlogs and
                                  > sprint burndown charts etc. ?

                                  For burn charts, flip chart paper and thick pens in striking colors
                                  (red, green, light blue...) work best in my experience.

                                  Cheers, Ilja
                                • Ron Jeffries
                                  Hello Steven, thanks for your email. On Tuesday, October 3, 2006, at ... Thanks for saving me the time. ;- Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Talent determines
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
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                                    Hello Steven, thanks for your email. On Tuesday, October 3, 2006, at
                                    4:31:06 PM, you wrote:

                                    > Index cards, pens, pencils, white boards, bulletin boards, large
                                    > pieces of paper, markers, etc.

                                    Thanks for saving me the time. ;->

                                    Ron Jeffries
                                    www.XProgramming.com
                                    Talent determines how fast you get good, not how good you get. -- Richard Gabriel
                                  • Deb
                                    ... that agile ... This is a topic I ve seen coming up a lot, particularly in response to the agile sucks camp. Those of us who have seen it in action know
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
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                                      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Gregor Dodson"
                                      <notacrime@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I agree with the Steves. The stuff he found frustrating is stuff
                                      that agile
                                      > processes shed light on, not problems that agile processes create.
                                      >
                                      > It seemed to me like one big long troll.
                                      >

                                      This is a topic I've seen coming up a lot, particularly in response to
                                      the "agile sucks" camp. Those of us who have seen it in action know
                                      just how well Agile does this: reveal problems that older processes
                                      (were perhaps designed to) cover up.

                                      I could really use an article for InfoQ on how Agile methods surface
                                      problems and how this can be a good thing. In a workplace where "quiet
                                      and calm" is good and "problems" are bad, this effect of revealing
                                      issues can be very disturbing. People experiencing Agile for the first
                                      time or seeing it from the outside, if they can reframe their
                                      understanding of obstacles, could come to understand how they present
                                      opportunities that require energy but can pay off.

                                      I'm smiling to myself, remembering a recent comment that a good
                                      process won't fix bad people... yes, there are some things revealed
                                      that only represent opportunities to, um, move on (either the obstacle
                                      or the coach :-)

                                      Any takers? I hope it's ok to request this kind of input on this
                                      list... it seems like a good place to ask.

                                      thanks
                                      deb

                                      --
                                      Deborah Hartmann
                                      Agile Community Editor
                                      InfoQ.com
                                    • Sarat Kumar Swain
                                      Thank you Friends. We ll start with the below tools :) Regards Sarat ... From: Ron Jeffries To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
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                                        Thank you Friends. We'll start with the below tools :)

                                        Regards
                                        Sarat


                                        ----- Original Message ----
                                        From: Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...>
                                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2006 5:50:53 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Managing product backlog/sprint backlog tool

                                        Hello Steven, thanks for your email. On Tuesday, October 3, 2006, at
                                        4:31:06 PM, you wrote:

                                        > Index cards, pens, pencils, white boards, bulletin boards, large
                                        > pieces of paper, markers, etc.

                                        Thanks for saving me the time. ;->

                                        Ron Jeffries
                                        www.XProgramming. com
                                        Talent determines how fast you get good, not how good you get. -- Richard Gabriel


                                      • PaulOldfield1@aol.com
                                        (responding to Paul B) ... So it probably isn t a good idea to promote his site by having links to it in your posting. A dumb spider won t tell the difference
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Oct 3, 2006
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                                          (responding to Paul B)
                                           
                                          > BTW since I've been barred from the site, it wouldn't bother me in the
                                          > slightest if others chose to let Mr Brady know what they think about
                                          his
                                          > negative PR campaign :^).
                                           
                                          So it probably isn't a good idea to promote his site by having
                                          links to it in your posting. A dumb spider won't tell the difference
                                          between a "go there" and "don't go there" recommendation.
                                           
                                          Paul Oldfield
                                           
                                        • beckfordp
                                          ... the ... about his ... Hi Paul, yes, I ve strugled with this one too. art ofme thinks that such mis-information should not be allowed to stand
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Oct 4, 2006
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                                            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, PaulOldfield1@... wrote:
                                            >
                                            > (responding to Paul B)
                                            >
                                            > > BTW since I've been barred from the site, it wouldn't bother me in
                                            the
                                            > > slightest if others chose to let Mr Brady know what they think
                                            about his
                                            > > negative PR campaign :^).
                                            >
                                            > So it probably isn't a good idea to promote his site by having
                                            > links to it in your posting. A dumb spider won't tell the difference
                                            > between a "go there" and "don't go there" recommendation.
                                            >
                                            > Paul Oldfield
                                            >
                                            Hi Paul,

                                            yes, I've strugled with this one too. art ofme thinks that such
                                            mis-information should not be allowed to stand unchallenged, and the
                                            other half of me fells that he should not be given the oxygen of
                                            publicity.

                                            On balance,I suppose you are right.

                                            Paul.
                                          • keiffster
                                            An interesting article, especially written by some one who has limited background in development but mainly comes from a Prince 2 inspired ( or should that be
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Oct 4, 2006
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                                              An interesting article, especially written by some one who has limited
                                              background in development but mainly comes from a Prince 2 inspired (
                                              or should that be insipid )management background.

                                              He obviously feels threatened by Agile, and is definately using it as
                                              self promotion. He's a Prince 2 man through and through.

                                              Unfortunately in the UK Prince 2 has taken quite a hold, and a vast
                                              amount of projects are advertised as requiring Prince 2 Certified
                                              Project/Programme Managers.

                                              He's had a wonderful life delivering major programmes using Prince 2 (
                                              so his website says ), and decided to divest all the experience in his
                                              own consultancy. I actually know some of the more
                                              technical/development staff on some of the projects he mentioned and
                                              Prince 2 was very much the high level management controlling process,
                                              the developement teams on some of the work, where a little more
                                              'agile' than he knows.

                                              Regardless, only with active criticisim such as this can we strengthen
                                              the argument for Agile methods.

                                              --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Bobick"
                                              <sbobick2@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > A colleague forwarded this to me today. I don't think it's been
                                              mentioned
                                              > on this forum yet.
                                              >
                                              > http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/09/good-agile-bad-agile_27.html
                                              >
                                              > -- Stephen
                                              >
                                            • Otis Bricker
                                              I am not all that up-to-date on emerging methods. What is Prince 2? All I can come up with is the methodology formerly known as Prince . Otis B.
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Oct 4, 2006
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                                                I am not all that up-to-date on emerging methods. What is Prince 2? All
                                                I can come up with is " the methodology formerly known as Prince".

                                                Otis B.

                                                keiffster wrote:
                                                >
                                                > An interesting article, especially written by some one who has limited
                                                > background in development but mainly comes from a Prince 2 inspired (
                                                > or should that be insipid )management background.
                                                >
                                                > He obviously feels threatened by Agile, and is definately using it as
                                                > self promotion. He's a Prince 2 man through and through.
                                                >
                                                > Unfortunately in the UK Prince 2 has taken quite a hold, and a vast
                                                > amount of projects are advertised as requiring Prince 2 Certified
                                                > Project/Programme Managers.
                                                >
                                                > He's had a wonderful life delivering major programmes using Prince 2 (
                                                > so his website says ), and decided to divest all the experience in his
                                                > own consultancy. I actually know some of the more
                                                > technical/development staff on some of the projects he mentioned and
                                                > Prince 2 was very much the high level management controlling process,
                                                > the developement teams on some of the work, where a little more
                                                > 'agile' than he knows.
                                                >
                                                > Regardless, only with active criticisim such as this can we strengthen
                                                > the argument for Agile methods.
                                                >
                                                > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                > <mailto:scrumdevelopment%40yahoogroups.com>, "Stephen Bobick"
                                                > <sbobick2@...> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > A colleague forwarded this to me today. I don't think it's been
                                                > mentioned
                                                > > on this forum yet.
                                                > >
                                                > > http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/09/good-agile-bad-agile_27.html
                                                > <http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/09/good-agile-bad-agile_27.html>
                                                > >
                                                > > -- Stephen
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                >
                                              • Dave Hostick
                                                I m not a Prince 2 man - however, a lot of customers are. The way I look at it is this: If the customer requires the red tape and the names of those who can be
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Oct 5, 2006
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                                                  I'm not a Prince 2 man - however, a lot of customers are.

                                                  The way I look at it is this:

                                                  If the customer requires the red tape and the names of those who can
                                                  be blamed for failure, along with the issues and risks logs to record
                                                  evidence, then Prince 2 is for him - he is expecting to fail, and
                                                  needs the insurance to save his job.

                                                  All we do, when the customer insists, is fit-in with Prince 2 as the
                                                  high level where Scrum is used to manage the (unpredictable)
                                                  developments; as a supplier with expected delivery at the end of the
                                                  sprints. This gives the customer his gantt chart at a more more higher
                                                  static level - the agile bits hidden from the customer (except the
                                                  user seconded to the project, who just thinks the agile method is
                                                  normal anyway).

                                                  Don't get hung up on Prince 2 - It has its place for those who can't
                                                  do agile, who can't manage software developments; who fail when they
                                                  do, and make us look good.

                                                  Dave



                                                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "keiffster" <keith@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > An interesting article, especially written by some one who has limited
                                                  > background in development but mainly comes from a Prince 2 inspired (
                                                  > or should that be insipid )management background.
                                                  >
                                                  > He obviously feels threatened by Agile, and is definately using it as
                                                  > self promotion. He's a Prince 2 man through and through.
                                                  >
                                                  > Unfortunately in the UK Prince 2 has taken quite a hold, and a vast
                                                  > amount of projects are advertised as requiring Prince 2 Certified
                                                  > Project/Programme Managers.
                                                  >
                                                  > He's had a wonderful life delivering major programmes using Prince 2 (
                                                  > so his website says ), and decided to divest all the experience in his
                                                  > own consultancy. I actually know some of the more
                                                  > technical/development staff on some of the projects he mentioned and
                                                  > Prince 2 was very much the high level management controlling process,
                                                  > the developement teams on some of the work, where a little more
                                                  > 'agile' than he knows.
                                                  >
                                                  > Regardless, only with active criticisim such as this can we strengthen
                                                  > the argument for Agile methods.
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Bobick"
                                                  > <sbobick2@> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > A colleague forwarded this to me today. I don't think it's been
                                                  > mentioned
                                                  > > on this forum yet.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2006/09/good-agile-bad-agile_27.html
                                                  > >
                                                  > > -- Stephen
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                • Lasse Koskela
                                                  ... Methodology? Prince 2 is not a university in New Jersey? - Lasse [walking away before the hilarity police hits the scene...]
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Oct 5, 2006
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                                                    On 10/5/06, Otis Bricker <obricker@...> wrote:
                                                    > I am not all that up-to-date on emerging methods. What is Prince 2? All
                                                    > I can come up with is " the methodology formerly known as Prince".

                                                    Methodology? "Prince 2" is not a university in New Jersey?

                                                    - Lasse [walking away before the hilarity police hits the scene...]
                                                  • Dan Bunea
                                                    As a continuation to what Steven said, if you (your teams) and your customers are collocated there s nothing better then : index card, pens , pencils,
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Oct 5, 2006
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                                                      As a continuation to what Steven said, if you (your teams) and your customers are collocated there's nothing better then : index card, pens , pencils, whiteboard, markers,  .... and maybe a digital camera to take picture of your designs on the whiteboard.
                                                       
                                                      If you're not all collocated then you might need some software like maybe: OnTime (www.axosoft.com - customizable enough for agile projects), target process ( www.targetprocess.com - more an XP tool) or others like ScrumWorks (www.danube.com ).
                                                       
                                                      Thanks,


                                                       
                                                      On 10/3/06, Steven Gordon <sgordonphd@...> wrote:

                                                      Index cards, pens, pencils, white boards, bulletin boards, large
                                                      pieces of paper, markers, etc.

                                                      On 10/3/06, Sarat Kumar Swain < swainsarat@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Hi there,
                                                      > I am new to scrum and my company is planning to adopt to this methods for
                                                      > our projects. However, my team is thinking to start practicing so that we
                                                      > can ask management to formaly accept it sooner. Would you suggest some tools
                                                      > to manage product backlogs, sprint backlogs and sprint burndown charts etc.
                                                      > ? I see that Ken used excel in his examples, any other tool that can help ?
                                                      >
                                                      > Thank you
                                                      > Sarat K. Swain
                                                      > Team Lead, Boston




                                                      --
                                                      Dan Bunea
                                                      http://danbunea.blogspot.com
                                                    • Hunt, Brandon
                                                      Ha! That made my morning. Thanks Otis. Brandon ________________________________ From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Oct 5, 2006
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                                                        Ha!  That made my morning.  Thanks Otis.

                                                         

                                                        Brandon

                                                         


                                                        From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Otis Bricker
                                                        Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 5:47 PM
                                                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Critique of Agile Processes

                                                         

                                                        I am not all that up-to-date on emerging methods. What is Prince 2? All
                                                        I can come up with is " the methodology formerly known as Prince".

                                                        Otis B.


                                                      • mnbluesguy
                                                        Here is a link for Ken Schwaber Visits Google http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7230144396191025011
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Oct 18, 2006
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                                                          Here is a link for "Ken Schwaber Visits Google"

                                                          http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7230144396191025011
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