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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Questioning eXtreme Project Management

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  • Marco Abis
    Thanks Brad, could you (and/or anyone else) list all the different XPMs you ve heard/read about? So that I ll be able to separate them and study them in an
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 11 9:26 AM
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      Thanks Brad,

      could you (and/or anyone else) list all the different XPMs you've heard/read about? So that I'll be able to separate them and study them in an organic way.

      Cheers

      Marco Abis
      Agility SPI: Software Process Improvement
      abis@... - abis@...
      http://agilemovement.it
    • Brad Appleton
      ... There is an XPM at http://www.extreme-pm.com that is no relation to the agile movement. Doug DeCarlo has a series of articles in his A Different Drummer
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 11 4:05 PM
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        On Fri, Jul 11, 2003 at 06:26:39PM +0200, Marco Abis wrote:
        > could you (and/or anyone else) list all the different XPMs you've heard/read about? So that I'll be able to separate them and study them in an organic way.

        There is an XPM at http://www.extreme-pm.com that is no relation
        to the agile movement.

        Doug DeCarlo has a series of articles in his "A Different
        Drummer" column on "extreme project management" at
        http://www.projectconnections.com/knowhow/columns/#decarlo
        - I think he has some knowledge of agile methods but
        thats not where he got the word 'extreme' from, and
        while what he writes is applicable to agile methods,
        it usually isn't knowingly taken from agile or XP (tho
        he does use the word 'agile' sometimes in the sense of
        agile organization/business). See also an outline at
        <http://vsbabu.org/mt/archives/2003/05/16/guide_to_extreme_project_management.html>

        There is a website http://ShootTheProjectManager.com/ that
        sometimes uses the word "extreme" and "radical" that is also
        not derived from agile or XP but is certainly applicable to
        the issues of people, high collaboration, and managing rapidly
        changing stakeholder expectations/requirements

        Donna Fitgerald has a "Nimble Project
        Manager" column at Builder.com (see articles at
        http://builder.com.com/columns.jhtml?browseParam=nblpromr) where
        she too is aware of agile, but her stuff really isn't so much
        part of that - even tho parts of it are applicable. I think her
        use of "Nimble" comes from Darryl Conner's book "Leading at the
        Edge of Chaos: the art and practice of t he nimble organization"
        which comes from the domain of organizational agility

        Shaun Ajani has a bunch of articles on
        "Extreme Project Management" you can see at
        http://www.refresher.com/archives37.html He also has a book
        coming out entitled "Extreme Project Management: Unique
        Methodologies - Resolute Principles - Astounding Results".
        I read the description on Amazon and it seemed very PMI-based
        and heavy or counter-agile to me - but I can't claim to have
        looked at it closely enough. Glen Alleman reviewed the book
        at http://www.niwotridge.com/BookReviews/ExtremePM.htm
        and based on what I've seen from Glen I would be inclined to
        trust his judgement 100%.

        Ed Yourdon has a site/seminar on XPM at
        http://www.yourdon.com/seminars/XPM.HTML which is about
        project management for high-intensity projects (and he has a
        book of the same name about managing high-intensity internet
        projects), including but not limited to agile and XP projects.
        I think Ed did take the 'extreme' directly from XP - but at the
        same time, a lot of the stuff he talks about is stuff from his
        own vast knowledge and experience (he is one of "the" software
        gurus in the field, on a par with Gerry Weinberg) and some of
        his stuff is in common with agile and not necessarily stolen
        (but some of it is just plain borrowed - which is okay). Even
        tho some of his stuff is borrowed - it is still good, and deserves
        looking into. Its not simply rewarmed "hype" to make money. Ed's
        been around the block longer than most and knows what of he writes.

        And of course Rob Thomsett has a book on XPM
        entitled "Radical Project Management" and a website at
        http://www.thomsett.com.au/. You can read more about Rob's
        "XPM" at his website or on Amazon or at InformIT.com (which
        has several articles). Rob is also a senior advisor to cutter
        consortium (invited I think by Jim Highsmith) so Rob'x XPMis
        "the real deal" and NOT some cheap knock-off trying to exploit
        XP/Agile. Glen Alleman has reviewed this book too at
        http://www.niwotridge.com/BookReviews/RadicalPM.htm
        he says the book is actually some pretty traditional PM with
        some "radical" thrown in and has some older essays are a bit
        outdated. I think Thomsett's more recent stuff for Cutter is
        perhaps more up-to-date.

        Hope that helps! I'm sure there are some other "XPM" or "Agile
        PM" methods out and about. Maybe someone will post them if
        they know of them.

        --
        Brad Appleton <brad@...> www.bradapp.net
        Software CM Patterns (www.scmpatterns.com)
        Effective Teamwork, Practical Integration
        "And miles to go before I sleep." -- Robert Frost
      • Mike Beedle
        ... gement.html Brad: When we were at Snowbird I proposed to use the word agile to describe what we perceived to be a different kind of software
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 11 10:29 PM
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          Brad wrote:
          >Doug DeCarlo has a series of articles in his "A Different
          >Drummer" column on "extreme project management" at
          >http://www.projectconnections.com/knowhow/columns/#decarlo
          >- I think he has some knowledge of agile methods but
          >Thats not where he got the word 'extreme' from, and
          >While what he writes is applicable to agile methods,
          >it usually isn't knowingly taken from agile or XP (tho
          >he does use the word 'agile' sometimes in the sense of
          >agile organization/business). See also an outline at
          ><http://vsbabu.org/mt/archives/2003/05/16/guide_to_extreme_project_mana
          gement.html>


          Brad:

          When we were at Snowbird I proposed to use the word
          "agile" to describe what we perceived to be "a different
          kind of software development already practiced
          for years by some", because we were looking for a word that
          executives and software development management
          _already knew_ and recognized but that they could
          associate as being "people-oriented, lightweight, adaptable,
          self-organizing, flexible, and high performance". Basically
          we were searching for a business friendly word that would
          describe accurately the nature of the kind of
          software development we were talking about and was
          recognizable by who we perceived to be the ultimate decision
          makers of the fate of anything in software:

          the business, IT and software management
          (The rule is: if these people don't buy <x> it dies.)

          There were in fact many other words flying around
          in the room: adaptable, synergistic, lightweight,
          lean, extreme, self-organizing, etc. But we consciously
          tried to choose a word that would make the
          "<X> movement" with a the "<X> manifesto" successful.

          We put different words to a vote and "agile" won
          its way into history because in our perception, it
          was already recognized by business and software
          management, from the "Agile Manufacturing"
          and "Agile Enterprise" concepts that came after BPR (business
          process reengineering) but before "Knowledge Management",
          and was associated with success (or at least it
          wasn't associated with the perceived massive failures
          of BPR, Knowledge Management, Business Intelligence,
          etc.)

          So as it turns out to be, we, the Agile Software Developers
          of the world, also use the word "agile" as in:

          Agile Organization
          Agile Business
          Agile Enterprise
          Agile Manufacturing
          Etc.

          That's why we chose the word.

          From a more technical perspective, Stu Kauffman argues that:

          Coevolving systems optimize their capacity to
          coevolve by mutually attaining the edge of chaos.

          So that still our hope for the future:

          _agile businesses_ that coevolve
          with _agile development_ and _agile applications_

          - Mike
        • Mike Beedle
          ... Brad: When we were at Snowbird I proposed to use the word agile to describe what we perceived to be a different kind of software development already
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 11 10:31 PM
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            Brad wrote:
            >Doug DeCarlo has a series of articles in his "A Different Drummer"
            >column on "extreme project management" at
            >http://www.projectconnections.com/knowhow/columns/#decarlo
            >- I think he has some knowledge of agile methods but
            >Thats not where he got the word 'extreme' from, and
            >While what he writes is applicable to agile methods,
            >it usually isn't knowingly taken from agile or XP (tho
            >he does use the word 'agile' sometimes in the sense of
            >agile organization/business). See also an outline at
            ><http://vsbabu.org/mt/archives/2003/05/16/guide_to_extreme_project_mana
            >gement.html>


            Brad:

            When we were at Snowbird I proposed to use the word
            "agile" to describe what we perceived to be "a different
            kind of software development already practiced
            for years by some", because we were looking for a word that
            executives and software development management _already knew_
            and recognized but that they could associate as being
            "people-oriented, lightweight, adaptable, self-organizing,
            flexible, and high performance". Basically
            we were searching for a business friendly word that would
            describe accurately the nature of the kind of
            software development we were talking about and was
            recognizable by who we perceived to be the ultimate decision
            makers of the fate of anything in software:

            the business, IT and software management
            (The rule is: if these people don't buy <x> it dies.)

            There were in fact many other words flying around
            in the room: adaptable, synergistic, lightweight,
            lean, extreme, self-organizing, etc. But we consciously
            tried to choose a word that would make the
            "<X> movement" with a the "<X> manifesto" successful.

            We put different words to a vote and "agile" won
            its way into history because in our perception, it
            was already recognized by business and software
            management, from the "Agile Manufacturing"
            and "Agile Enterprise" concepts that came after BPR (business
            process reengineering) but before "Knowledge Management",
            and was associated with success (or at least it
            wasn't associated with the perceived massive failures
            of BPR, Knowledge Management, Business Intelligence,
            etc.)

            So as it turns out to be, we, the Agile Software Developers
            of the world, also use the word "agile" as in:

            Agile Organization
            Agile Business
            Agile Enterprise
            Agile Manufacturing
            Etc.

            That's why we chose the word.

            From a more technical perspective, Stu Kauffman argues that:

            Coevolving systems optimize their capacity to
            coevolve by mutually attaining the edge of chaos.

            So that still our hope for the future:

            _agile businesses_ that coevolve
            with _agile development_ and _agile applications_

            - Mike
          • Brad Appleton
            ... Thanks Mike! (I actually knew that :). I was just trying to clarify where some of those other folks borrowed the use of extreme from (they all borrowed
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 12 12:29 AM
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              On Sat, Jul 12, 2003 at 12:29:49AM -0500, Mike Beedle wrote:
              > So as it turns out to be, we, the Agile Software Developers
              > of the world, also use the word "agile" as in:
              >
              > Agile Organization
              > Agile Business
              > Agile Enterprise
              > Agile Manufacturing
              > Etc.
              >
              > That's why we chose the word.

              Thanks Mike! (I actually knew that :). I was just trying to clarify where some of those other folks borrowed the use of 'extreme' from (they all borrowed it from something, and often even indirectly from the same underlying source. But some got it 'directly' from different sources other than agile SW methods"

              I like "agile" myself better than most of those other alternatives (thank goodness "nimble" wasn't in the list - sorry but to me the word itself has a sound that evokes the image of a guy named "Jack" doing some rather unintelligent-sounding athletic maneuver that would unnecessarily and undesirably engage in thermodynamic heat transfer to his posterior :)

              --
              Brad Appleton <brad@...> www.bradapp.net
              Software CM Patterns (www.scmpatterns.com)
              Effective Teamwork, Practical Integration
              "And miles to go before I sleep." -- Robert Frost
            • castnerca
              ... Doug s point of view/process was presented on an PMI
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 25 3:04 PM
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                <Snip from Brad>
                > Doug DeCarlo has a series of articles in his "A Different
                > Drummer" column on "extreme project management" at
                > http://www.projectconnections.com/knowhow/columns/#decarlo
                > - I think he has some knowledge of agile methods but
                > thats not where he got the word 'extreme' from, and
                > while what he writes is applicable to agile methods,
                > it usually isn't knowingly taken from agile or XP (tho
                > he does use the word 'agile' sometimes in the sense of
                > agile organization/business). See also an outline at
                >
                <http://vsbabu.org/mt/archives/2003/05/16/guide_to_extreme_project_man
                agement.html>



                Doug's point of view/process was presented on an PMI Information
                Systems SIG Webinar yesterday. The discussion that accompanied his
                powerpoint show showed that his thoughts, if not his descriptions,
                are closer to what I am learning about Agile (via this users group).
                It is a departure from the typical waterfall, lock-step that PMBOK
                forces on traditional PMs. However, I don't think he truly "gets"
                agileness.

                Catherine
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