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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Questioning eXtreme Project Management

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  • Marco Abis
    ... really a lot of sources, just a few: - http://www.cutter.com/freestuff/epmr0102.html -
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 11, 2003
      >Can you be specific about which source you obtained the XPM info from? I've seen no less than 4 or 5 different things calling themselves XPM and some of them have nothing to do with "agility".

      really a lot of sources, just a few:

      - http://www.cutter.com/freestuff/epmr0102.html
      - http://www.informit.com/content/index.asp?product_id={B5CE5B8C-04DF-4572-84FA-FAF6FE32C74C}&session_id={948C285D-F9C9-4608-A99B-45B6946763C5}
      - http://www.refresher.com/!extremereview.html

      and some Yourdon papers (and a book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0130621102/edyourdonswebsitA/) and many more.

      >I guess I want to emphasize that (!new != !good). The whole idea behind software patterns was to disseminate common practices documented with uncommonly good insight.

      of course! But If a take some practices (loosing principles) from Scrum, something from Lean and something from ASD and I call it 'eXtreme Buzzing' this new approach isn't new and isn't also good (and I'll try also to sell it as my new, revolutionary silver bullet :)) But I'm not writing about Thomsett (I've ordered his book, not read yet).

      >I think he is not trying to take advantage of the 'Extreme' word anymore than XP is :-)

      Again I'm not speaking about Thomsett in praticlura but what I mean is that when XPers took the word 'extreme' they weren't referring to anything else while all this "new eXtreme Something" are clearly trying to take advantage of XP and not of the 'extreme' word itself.

      Cheers



      Marco Abis
      Agility SPI: Software Process Improvement
      abis@... - abis@...
      http://agilemovement.it
    • Brad Appleton
      ... Okay - just keep in mind they are not all the same thing. Some of them are borrowing extreme because the word itself is sort of a buzzword (even before
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 11, 2003
        On Fri, Jul 11, 2003 at 06:00:37PM +0200, Marco Abis wrote:
        > really a lot of sources, just a few:

        Okay - just keep in mind they are not all the same thing. Some of them are borrowing 'extreme' because the word itself is sort of a buzzword (even before XP used it - that as in fact one of the reasons why XP used it). Some of them are borrowing the word from XP.

        > of course! But If a take some practices (losing principles) from Scrum, something from Lean and something from ASD and I call it 'eXtreme Buzzing' this new approach isn't new and isn't also good (and I'll try also to sell it as my new, revolutionary silver bullet :))

        Yes. I think we need to evaluate on a case-by-case basis which
        XPMs incarnations are doing that and which ones aren't. Some
        of them aren't explicitly borrowing from so much as having
        practices in common with them because they both discovered
        they are good and that they work.

        > Again I'm not speaking about Thomsett in praticlura but what I mean is that when XPers took the word 'extreme' they weren't referring to anything else while all this "new eXtreme Something" are clearly trying to take advantage of XP and not of the 'extreme' word itself.

        Again, some of them are. But some of them aren't - a few of the 'XPM' incarnations them haven't even heard of 'extreme programming' or even of agile software methods.
        --
        Brad Appleton <brad@...> www.bradapp.net
        Software CM Patterns (www.scmpatterns.com)
        Effective Teamwork, Practical Integration
        "And miles to go before I sleep." -- Robert Frost
      • Marco Abis
        Thanks Brad, could you (and/or anyone else) list all the different XPMs you ve heard/read about? So that I ll be able to separate them and study them in an
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 11, 2003
          Thanks Brad,

          could you (and/or anyone else) list all the different XPMs you've heard/read about? So that I'll be able to separate them and study them in an organic way.

          Cheers

          Marco Abis
          Agility SPI: Software Process Improvement
          abis@... - abis@...
          http://agilemovement.it
        • Brad Appleton
          ... There is an XPM at http://www.extreme-pm.com that is no relation to the agile movement. Doug DeCarlo has a series of articles in his A Different Drummer
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 11, 2003
            On Fri, Jul 11, 2003 at 06:26:39PM +0200, Marco Abis wrote:
            > could you (and/or anyone else) list all the different XPMs you've heard/read about? So that I'll be able to separate them and study them in an organic way.

            There is an XPM at http://www.extreme-pm.com that is no relation
            to the agile movement.

            Doug DeCarlo has a series of articles in his "A Different
            Drummer" column on "extreme project management" at
            http://www.projectconnections.com/knowhow/columns/#decarlo
            - I think he has some knowledge of agile methods but
            thats not where he got the word 'extreme' from, and
            while what he writes is applicable to agile methods,
            it usually isn't knowingly taken from agile or XP (tho
            he does use the word 'agile' sometimes in the sense of
            agile organization/business). See also an outline at
            <http://vsbabu.org/mt/archives/2003/05/16/guide_to_extreme_project_management.html>

            There is a website http://ShootTheProjectManager.com/ that
            sometimes uses the word "extreme" and "radical" that is also
            not derived from agile or XP but is certainly applicable to
            the issues of people, high collaboration, and managing rapidly
            changing stakeholder expectations/requirements

            Donna Fitgerald has a "Nimble Project
            Manager" column at Builder.com (see articles at
            http://builder.com.com/columns.jhtml?browseParam=nblpromr) where
            she too is aware of agile, but her stuff really isn't so much
            part of that - even tho parts of it are applicable. I think her
            use of "Nimble" comes from Darryl Conner's book "Leading at the
            Edge of Chaos: the art and practice of t he nimble organization"
            which comes from the domain of organizational agility

            Shaun Ajani has a bunch of articles on
            "Extreme Project Management" you can see at
            http://www.refresher.com/archives37.html He also has a book
            coming out entitled "Extreme Project Management: Unique
            Methodologies - Resolute Principles - Astounding Results".
            I read the description on Amazon and it seemed very PMI-based
            and heavy or counter-agile to me - but I can't claim to have
            looked at it closely enough. Glen Alleman reviewed the book
            at http://www.niwotridge.com/BookReviews/ExtremePM.htm
            and based on what I've seen from Glen I would be inclined to
            trust his judgement 100%.

            Ed Yourdon has a site/seminar on XPM at
            http://www.yourdon.com/seminars/XPM.HTML which is about
            project management for high-intensity projects (and he has a
            book of the same name about managing high-intensity internet
            projects), including but not limited to agile and XP projects.
            I think Ed did take the 'extreme' directly from XP - but at the
            same time, a lot of the stuff he talks about is stuff from his
            own vast knowledge and experience (he is one of "the" software
            gurus in the field, on a par with Gerry Weinberg) and some of
            his stuff is in common with agile and not necessarily stolen
            (but some of it is just plain borrowed - which is okay). Even
            tho some of his stuff is borrowed - it is still good, and deserves
            looking into. Its not simply rewarmed "hype" to make money. Ed's
            been around the block longer than most and knows what of he writes.

            And of course Rob Thomsett has a book on XPM
            entitled "Radical Project Management" and a website at
            http://www.thomsett.com.au/. You can read more about Rob's
            "XPM" at his website or on Amazon or at InformIT.com (which
            has several articles). Rob is also a senior advisor to cutter
            consortium (invited I think by Jim Highsmith) so Rob'x XPMis
            "the real deal" and NOT some cheap knock-off trying to exploit
            XP/Agile. Glen Alleman has reviewed this book too at
            http://www.niwotridge.com/BookReviews/RadicalPM.htm
            he says the book is actually some pretty traditional PM with
            some "radical" thrown in and has some older essays are a bit
            outdated. I think Thomsett's more recent stuff for Cutter is
            perhaps more up-to-date.

            Hope that helps! I'm sure there are some other "XPM" or "Agile
            PM" methods out and about. Maybe someone will post them if
            they know of them.

            --
            Brad Appleton <brad@...> www.bradapp.net
            Software CM Patterns (www.scmpatterns.com)
            Effective Teamwork, Practical Integration
            "And miles to go before I sleep." -- Robert Frost
          • Mike Beedle
            ... gement.html Brad: When we were at Snowbird I proposed to use the word agile to describe what we perceived to be a different kind of software
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 11, 2003
              Brad wrote:
              >Doug DeCarlo has a series of articles in his "A Different
              >Drummer" column on "extreme project management" at
              >http://www.projectconnections.com/knowhow/columns/#decarlo
              >- I think he has some knowledge of agile methods but
              >Thats not where he got the word 'extreme' from, and
              >While what he writes is applicable to agile methods,
              >it usually isn't knowingly taken from agile or XP (tho
              >he does use the word 'agile' sometimes in the sense of
              >agile organization/business). See also an outline at
              ><http://vsbabu.org/mt/archives/2003/05/16/guide_to_extreme_project_mana
              gement.html>


              Brad:

              When we were at Snowbird I proposed to use the word
              "agile" to describe what we perceived to be "a different
              kind of software development already practiced
              for years by some", because we were looking for a word that
              executives and software development management
              _already knew_ and recognized but that they could
              associate as being "people-oriented, lightweight, adaptable,
              self-organizing, flexible, and high performance". Basically
              we were searching for a business friendly word that would
              describe accurately the nature of the kind of
              software development we were talking about and was
              recognizable by who we perceived to be the ultimate decision
              makers of the fate of anything in software:

              the business, IT and software management
              (The rule is: if these people don't buy <x> it dies.)

              There were in fact many other words flying around
              in the room: adaptable, synergistic, lightweight,
              lean, extreme, self-organizing, etc. But we consciously
              tried to choose a word that would make the
              "<X> movement" with a the "<X> manifesto" successful.

              We put different words to a vote and "agile" won
              its way into history because in our perception, it
              was already recognized by business and software
              management, from the "Agile Manufacturing"
              and "Agile Enterprise" concepts that came after BPR (business
              process reengineering) but before "Knowledge Management",
              and was associated with success (or at least it
              wasn't associated with the perceived massive failures
              of BPR, Knowledge Management, Business Intelligence,
              etc.)

              So as it turns out to be, we, the Agile Software Developers
              of the world, also use the word "agile" as in:

              Agile Organization
              Agile Business
              Agile Enterprise
              Agile Manufacturing
              Etc.

              That's why we chose the word.

              From a more technical perspective, Stu Kauffman argues that:

              Coevolving systems optimize their capacity to
              coevolve by mutually attaining the edge of chaos.

              So that still our hope for the future:

              _agile businesses_ that coevolve
              with _agile development_ and _agile applications_

              - Mike
            • Mike Beedle
              ... Brad: When we were at Snowbird I proposed to use the word agile to describe what we perceived to be a different kind of software development already
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 11, 2003
                Brad wrote:
                >Doug DeCarlo has a series of articles in his "A Different Drummer"
                >column on "extreme project management" at
                >http://www.projectconnections.com/knowhow/columns/#decarlo
                >- I think he has some knowledge of agile methods but
                >Thats not where he got the word 'extreme' from, and
                >While what he writes is applicable to agile methods,
                >it usually isn't knowingly taken from agile or XP (tho
                >he does use the word 'agile' sometimes in the sense of
                >agile organization/business). See also an outline at
                ><http://vsbabu.org/mt/archives/2003/05/16/guide_to_extreme_project_mana
                >gement.html>


                Brad:

                When we were at Snowbird I proposed to use the word
                "agile" to describe what we perceived to be "a different
                kind of software development already practiced
                for years by some", because we were looking for a word that
                executives and software development management _already knew_
                and recognized but that they could associate as being
                "people-oriented, lightweight, adaptable, self-organizing,
                flexible, and high performance". Basically
                we were searching for a business friendly word that would
                describe accurately the nature of the kind of
                software development we were talking about and was
                recognizable by who we perceived to be the ultimate decision
                makers of the fate of anything in software:

                the business, IT and software management
                (The rule is: if these people don't buy <x> it dies.)

                There were in fact many other words flying around
                in the room: adaptable, synergistic, lightweight,
                lean, extreme, self-organizing, etc. But we consciously
                tried to choose a word that would make the
                "<X> movement" with a the "<X> manifesto" successful.

                We put different words to a vote and "agile" won
                its way into history because in our perception, it
                was already recognized by business and software
                management, from the "Agile Manufacturing"
                and "Agile Enterprise" concepts that came after BPR (business
                process reengineering) but before "Knowledge Management",
                and was associated with success (or at least it
                wasn't associated with the perceived massive failures
                of BPR, Knowledge Management, Business Intelligence,
                etc.)

                So as it turns out to be, we, the Agile Software Developers
                of the world, also use the word "agile" as in:

                Agile Organization
                Agile Business
                Agile Enterprise
                Agile Manufacturing
                Etc.

                That's why we chose the word.

                From a more technical perspective, Stu Kauffman argues that:

                Coevolving systems optimize their capacity to
                coevolve by mutually attaining the edge of chaos.

                So that still our hope for the future:

                _agile businesses_ that coevolve
                with _agile development_ and _agile applications_

                - Mike
              • Brad Appleton
                ... Thanks Mike! (I actually knew that :). I was just trying to clarify where some of those other folks borrowed the use of extreme from (they all borrowed
                Message 7 of 16 , Jul 12, 2003
                  On Sat, Jul 12, 2003 at 12:29:49AM -0500, Mike Beedle wrote:
                  > So as it turns out to be, we, the Agile Software Developers
                  > of the world, also use the word "agile" as in:
                  >
                  > Agile Organization
                  > Agile Business
                  > Agile Enterprise
                  > Agile Manufacturing
                  > Etc.
                  >
                  > That's why we chose the word.

                  Thanks Mike! (I actually knew that :). I was just trying to clarify where some of those other folks borrowed the use of 'extreme' from (they all borrowed it from something, and often even indirectly from the same underlying source. But some got it 'directly' from different sources other than agile SW methods"

                  I like "agile" myself better than most of those other alternatives (thank goodness "nimble" wasn't in the list - sorry but to me the word itself has a sound that evokes the image of a guy named "Jack" doing some rather unintelligent-sounding athletic maneuver that would unnecessarily and undesirably engage in thermodynamic heat transfer to his posterior :)

                  --
                  Brad Appleton <brad@...> www.bradapp.net
                  Software CM Patterns (www.scmpatterns.com)
                  Effective Teamwork, Practical Integration
                  "And miles to go before I sleep." -- Robert Frost
                • castnerca
                  ... Doug s point of view/process was presented on an PMI
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jul 25, 2003
                    <Snip from Brad>
                    > Doug DeCarlo has a series of articles in his "A Different
                    > Drummer" column on "extreme project management" at
                    > http://www.projectconnections.com/knowhow/columns/#decarlo
                    > - I think he has some knowledge of agile methods but
                    > thats not where he got the word 'extreme' from, and
                    > while what he writes is applicable to agile methods,
                    > it usually isn't knowingly taken from agile or XP (tho
                    > he does use the word 'agile' sometimes in the sense of
                    > agile organization/business). See also an outline at
                    >
                    <http://vsbabu.org/mt/archives/2003/05/16/guide_to_extreme_project_man
                    agement.html>



                    Doug's point of view/process was presented on an PMI Information
                    Systems SIG Webinar yesterday. The discussion that accompanied his
                    powerpoint show showed that his thoughts, if not his descriptions,
                    are closer to what I am learning about Agile (via this users group).
                    It is a departure from the typical waterfall, lock-step that PMBOK
                    forces on traditional PMs. However, I don't think he truly "gets"
                    agileness.

                    Catherine
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