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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Questioning eXtreme Project Management

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  • Brad Appleton
    ... Can you be specific about which source you obtained the XPM info from? I ve seen no less than 4 or 5 different things calling themselves XPM and some of
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 11, 2003
      On Fri, Jul 11, 2003 at 11:33:45AM +0200, Marco Abis wrote:
      > I would like to know what those of you who know eXtreme Project Management think about it. I've just read a lot of docs about XPM

      Can you be specific about which source you obtained the XPM info from? I've seen no less than 4 or 5 different things calling themselves XPM and some of them have nothing to do with "agility".

      Rob Thomsett has a book and a site about what he calls XPM. And I've heard a lot of good things about it from a lot of people in the agile community. I also have the book and it looks pretty good to me.

      I agree a lot of it is nothing new. Then again, keep in mind a lot of what's in eXtreme Programming was nothing new. What was new is the particular combination of practices, and the emphasis on people and communication. Thomsett's XPM has borrowed some stuff from agile things, but agile borrowed some stuff from him too as he was writing about his stuff before we started using the word "agile" to describe these methods. I consider his stuff part of the agile movement rather than trying to piggyback on it. I've reason to think Highsmith would tend to agree with that to (but I should let Jim speak for himself :)

      I guess I want to emphasize that (!new != !good). The whole idea behind software patterns was to disseminate common practices documented with uncommonly good insight. I think Thomsett does the same for XPM practices. I think he is not trying to take advantage of the 'Extreme' word anymore than XP is :-)
      --
      Brad Appleton <brad@...> www.bradapp.net
      Software CM Patterns (www.scmpatterns.com)
      Effective Teamwork, Practical Integration
      "And miles to go before I sleep." -- Robert Frost
    • Marco Abis
      ... really a lot of sources, just a few: - http://www.cutter.com/freestuff/epmr0102.html -
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 11, 2003
        >Can you be specific about which source you obtained the XPM info from? I've seen no less than 4 or 5 different things calling themselves XPM and some of them have nothing to do with "agility".

        really a lot of sources, just a few:

        - http://www.cutter.com/freestuff/epmr0102.html
        - http://www.informit.com/content/index.asp?product_id={B5CE5B8C-04DF-4572-84FA-FAF6FE32C74C}&session_id={948C285D-F9C9-4608-A99B-45B6946763C5}
        - http://www.refresher.com/!extremereview.html

        and some Yourdon papers (and a book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0130621102/edyourdonswebsitA/) and many more.

        >I guess I want to emphasize that (!new != !good). The whole idea behind software patterns was to disseminate common practices documented with uncommonly good insight.

        of course! But If a take some practices (loosing principles) from Scrum, something from Lean and something from ASD and I call it 'eXtreme Buzzing' this new approach isn't new and isn't also good (and I'll try also to sell it as my new, revolutionary silver bullet :)) But I'm not writing about Thomsett (I've ordered his book, not read yet).

        >I think he is not trying to take advantage of the 'Extreme' word anymore than XP is :-)

        Again I'm not speaking about Thomsett in praticlura but what I mean is that when XPers took the word 'extreme' they weren't referring to anything else while all this "new eXtreme Something" are clearly trying to take advantage of XP and not of the 'extreme' word itself.

        Cheers



        Marco Abis
        Agility SPI: Software Process Improvement
        abis@... - abis@...
        http://agilemovement.it
      • Brad Appleton
        ... Okay - just keep in mind they are not all the same thing. Some of them are borrowing extreme because the word itself is sort of a buzzword (even before
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 11, 2003
          On Fri, Jul 11, 2003 at 06:00:37PM +0200, Marco Abis wrote:
          > really a lot of sources, just a few:

          Okay - just keep in mind they are not all the same thing. Some of them are borrowing 'extreme' because the word itself is sort of a buzzword (even before XP used it - that as in fact one of the reasons why XP used it). Some of them are borrowing the word from XP.

          > of course! But If a take some practices (losing principles) from Scrum, something from Lean and something from ASD and I call it 'eXtreme Buzzing' this new approach isn't new and isn't also good (and I'll try also to sell it as my new, revolutionary silver bullet :))

          Yes. I think we need to evaluate on a case-by-case basis which
          XPMs incarnations are doing that and which ones aren't. Some
          of them aren't explicitly borrowing from so much as having
          practices in common with them because they both discovered
          they are good and that they work.

          > Again I'm not speaking about Thomsett in praticlura but what I mean is that when XPers took the word 'extreme' they weren't referring to anything else while all this "new eXtreme Something" are clearly trying to take advantage of XP and not of the 'extreme' word itself.

          Again, some of them are. But some of them aren't - a few of the 'XPM' incarnations them haven't even heard of 'extreme programming' or even of agile software methods.
          --
          Brad Appleton <brad@...> www.bradapp.net
          Software CM Patterns (www.scmpatterns.com)
          Effective Teamwork, Practical Integration
          "And miles to go before I sleep." -- Robert Frost
        • Marco Abis
          Thanks Brad, could you (and/or anyone else) list all the different XPMs you ve heard/read about? So that I ll be able to separate them and study them in an
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 11, 2003
            Thanks Brad,

            could you (and/or anyone else) list all the different XPMs you've heard/read about? So that I'll be able to separate them and study them in an organic way.

            Cheers

            Marco Abis
            Agility SPI: Software Process Improvement
            abis@... - abis@...
            http://agilemovement.it
          • Brad Appleton
            ... There is an XPM at http://www.extreme-pm.com that is no relation to the agile movement. Doug DeCarlo has a series of articles in his A Different Drummer
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 11, 2003
              On Fri, Jul 11, 2003 at 06:26:39PM +0200, Marco Abis wrote:
              > could you (and/or anyone else) list all the different XPMs you've heard/read about? So that I'll be able to separate them and study them in an organic way.

              There is an XPM at http://www.extreme-pm.com that is no relation
              to the agile movement.

              Doug DeCarlo has a series of articles in his "A Different
              Drummer" column on "extreme project management" at
              http://www.projectconnections.com/knowhow/columns/#decarlo
              - I think he has some knowledge of agile methods but
              thats not where he got the word 'extreme' from, and
              while what he writes is applicable to agile methods,
              it usually isn't knowingly taken from agile or XP (tho
              he does use the word 'agile' sometimes in the sense of
              agile organization/business). See also an outline at
              <http://vsbabu.org/mt/archives/2003/05/16/guide_to_extreme_project_management.html>

              There is a website http://ShootTheProjectManager.com/ that
              sometimes uses the word "extreme" and "radical" that is also
              not derived from agile or XP but is certainly applicable to
              the issues of people, high collaboration, and managing rapidly
              changing stakeholder expectations/requirements

              Donna Fitgerald has a "Nimble Project
              Manager" column at Builder.com (see articles at
              http://builder.com.com/columns.jhtml?browseParam=nblpromr) where
              she too is aware of agile, but her stuff really isn't so much
              part of that - even tho parts of it are applicable. I think her
              use of "Nimble" comes from Darryl Conner's book "Leading at the
              Edge of Chaos: the art and practice of t he nimble organization"
              which comes from the domain of organizational agility

              Shaun Ajani has a bunch of articles on
              "Extreme Project Management" you can see at
              http://www.refresher.com/archives37.html He also has a book
              coming out entitled "Extreme Project Management: Unique
              Methodologies - Resolute Principles - Astounding Results".
              I read the description on Amazon and it seemed very PMI-based
              and heavy or counter-agile to me - but I can't claim to have
              looked at it closely enough. Glen Alleman reviewed the book
              at http://www.niwotridge.com/BookReviews/ExtremePM.htm
              and based on what I've seen from Glen I would be inclined to
              trust his judgement 100%.

              Ed Yourdon has a site/seminar on XPM at
              http://www.yourdon.com/seminars/XPM.HTML which is about
              project management for high-intensity projects (and he has a
              book of the same name about managing high-intensity internet
              projects), including but not limited to agile and XP projects.
              I think Ed did take the 'extreme' directly from XP - but at the
              same time, a lot of the stuff he talks about is stuff from his
              own vast knowledge and experience (he is one of "the" software
              gurus in the field, on a par with Gerry Weinberg) and some of
              his stuff is in common with agile and not necessarily stolen
              (but some of it is just plain borrowed - which is okay). Even
              tho some of his stuff is borrowed - it is still good, and deserves
              looking into. Its not simply rewarmed "hype" to make money. Ed's
              been around the block longer than most and knows what of he writes.

              And of course Rob Thomsett has a book on XPM
              entitled "Radical Project Management" and a website at
              http://www.thomsett.com.au/. You can read more about Rob's
              "XPM" at his website or on Amazon or at InformIT.com (which
              has several articles). Rob is also a senior advisor to cutter
              consortium (invited I think by Jim Highsmith) so Rob'x XPMis
              "the real deal" and NOT some cheap knock-off trying to exploit
              XP/Agile. Glen Alleman has reviewed this book too at
              http://www.niwotridge.com/BookReviews/RadicalPM.htm
              he says the book is actually some pretty traditional PM with
              some "radical" thrown in and has some older essays are a bit
              outdated. I think Thomsett's more recent stuff for Cutter is
              perhaps more up-to-date.

              Hope that helps! I'm sure there are some other "XPM" or "Agile
              PM" methods out and about. Maybe someone will post them if
              they know of them.

              --
              Brad Appleton <brad@...> www.bradapp.net
              Software CM Patterns (www.scmpatterns.com)
              Effective Teamwork, Practical Integration
              "And miles to go before I sleep." -- Robert Frost
            • Mike Beedle
              ... gement.html Brad: When we were at Snowbird I proposed to use the word agile to describe what we perceived to be a different kind of software
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 11, 2003
                Brad wrote:
                >Doug DeCarlo has a series of articles in his "A Different
                >Drummer" column on "extreme project management" at
                >http://www.projectconnections.com/knowhow/columns/#decarlo
                >- I think he has some knowledge of agile methods but
                >Thats not where he got the word 'extreme' from, and
                >While what he writes is applicable to agile methods,
                >it usually isn't knowingly taken from agile or XP (tho
                >he does use the word 'agile' sometimes in the sense of
                >agile organization/business). See also an outline at
                ><http://vsbabu.org/mt/archives/2003/05/16/guide_to_extreme_project_mana
                gement.html>


                Brad:

                When we were at Snowbird I proposed to use the word
                "agile" to describe what we perceived to be "a different
                kind of software development already practiced
                for years by some", because we were looking for a word that
                executives and software development management
                _already knew_ and recognized but that they could
                associate as being "people-oriented, lightweight, adaptable,
                self-organizing, flexible, and high performance". Basically
                we were searching for a business friendly word that would
                describe accurately the nature of the kind of
                software development we were talking about and was
                recognizable by who we perceived to be the ultimate decision
                makers of the fate of anything in software:

                the business, IT and software management
                (The rule is: if these people don't buy <x> it dies.)

                There were in fact many other words flying around
                in the room: adaptable, synergistic, lightweight,
                lean, extreme, self-organizing, etc. But we consciously
                tried to choose a word that would make the
                "<X> movement" with a the "<X> manifesto" successful.

                We put different words to a vote and "agile" won
                its way into history because in our perception, it
                was already recognized by business and software
                management, from the "Agile Manufacturing"
                and "Agile Enterprise" concepts that came after BPR (business
                process reengineering) but before "Knowledge Management",
                and was associated with success (or at least it
                wasn't associated with the perceived massive failures
                of BPR, Knowledge Management, Business Intelligence,
                etc.)

                So as it turns out to be, we, the Agile Software Developers
                of the world, also use the word "agile" as in:

                Agile Organization
                Agile Business
                Agile Enterprise
                Agile Manufacturing
                Etc.

                That's why we chose the word.

                From a more technical perspective, Stu Kauffman argues that:

                Coevolving systems optimize their capacity to
                coevolve by mutually attaining the edge of chaos.

                So that still our hope for the future:

                _agile businesses_ that coevolve
                with _agile development_ and _agile applications_

                - Mike
              • Mike Beedle
                ... Brad: When we were at Snowbird I proposed to use the word agile to describe what we perceived to be a different kind of software development already
                Message 7 of 16 , Jul 11, 2003
                  Brad wrote:
                  >Doug DeCarlo has a series of articles in his "A Different Drummer"
                  >column on "extreme project management" at
                  >http://www.projectconnections.com/knowhow/columns/#decarlo
                  >- I think he has some knowledge of agile methods but
                  >Thats not where he got the word 'extreme' from, and
                  >While what he writes is applicable to agile methods,
                  >it usually isn't knowingly taken from agile or XP (tho
                  >he does use the word 'agile' sometimes in the sense of
                  >agile organization/business). See also an outline at
                  ><http://vsbabu.org/mt/archives/2003/05/16/guide_to_extreme_project_mana
                  >gement.html>


                  Brad:

                  When we were at Snowbird I proposed to use the word
                  "agile" to describe what we perceived to be "a different
                  kind of software development already practiced
                  for years by some", because we were looking for a word that
                  executives and software development management _already knew_
                  and recognized but that they could associate as being
                  "people-oriented, lightweight, adaptable, self-organizing,
                  flexible, and high performance". Basically
                  we were searching for a business friendly word that would
                  describe accurately the nature of the kind of
                  software development we were talking about and was
                  recognizable by who we perceived to be the ultimate decision
                  makers of the fate of anything in software:

                  the business, IT and software management
                  (The rule is: if these people don't buy <x> it dies.)

                  There were in fact many other words flying around
                  in the room: adaptable, synergistic, lightweight,
                  lean, extreme, self-organizing, etc. But we consciously
                  tried to choose a word that would make the
                  "<X> movement" with a the "<X> manifesto" successful.

                  We put different words to a vote and "agile" won
                  its way into history because in our perception, it
                  was already recognized by business and software
                  management, from the "Agile Manufacturing"
                  and "Agile Enterprise" concepts that came after BPR (business
                  process reengineering) but before "Knowledge Management",
                  and was associated with success (or at least it
                  wasn't associated with the perceived massive failures
                  of BPR, Knowledge Management, Business Intelligence,
                  etc.)

                  So as it turns out to be, we, the Agile Software Developers
                  of the world, also use the word "agile" as in:

                  Agile Organization
                  Agile Business
                  Agile Enterprise
                  Agile Manufacturing
                  Etc.

                  That's why we chose the word.

                  From a more technical perspective, Stu Kauffman argues that:

                  Coevolving systems optimize their capacity to
                  coevolve by mutually attaining the edge of chaos.

                  So that still our hope for the future:

                  _agile businesses_ that coevolve
                  with _agile development_ and _agile applications_

                  - Mike
                • Brad Appleton
                  ... Thanks Mike! (I actually knew that :). I was just trying to clarify where some of those other folks borrowed the use of extreme from (they all borrowed
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jul 12, 2003
                    On Sat, Jul 12, 2003 at 12:29:49AM -0500, Mike Beedle wrote:
                    > So as it turns out to be, we, the Agile Software Developers
                    > of the world, also use the word "agile" as in:
                    >
                    > Agile Organization
                    > Agile Business
                    > Agile Enterprise
                    > Agile Manufacturing
                    > Etc.
                    >
                    > That's why we chose the word.

                    Thanks Mike! (I actually knew that :). I was just trying to clarify where some of those other folks borrowed the use of 'extreme' from (they all borrowed it from something, and often even indirectly from the same underlying source. But some got it 'directly' from different sources other than agile SW methods"

                    I like "agile" myself better than most of those other alternatives (thank goodness "nimble" wasn't in the list - sorry but to me the word itself has a sound that evokes the image of a guy named "Jack" doing some rather unintelligent-sounding athletic maneuver that would unnecessarily and undesirably engage in thermodynamic heat transfer to his posterior :)

                    --
                    Brad Appleton <brad@...> www.bradapp.net
                    Software CM Patterns (www.scmpatterns.com)
                    Effective Teamwork, Practical Integration
                    "And miles to go before I sleep." -- Robert Frost
                  • castnerca
                    ... Doug s point of view/process was presented on an PMI
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jul 25, 2003
                      <Snip from Brad>
                      > Doug DeCarlo has a series of articles in his "A Different
                      > Drummer" column on "extreme project management" at
                      > http://www.projectconnections.com/knowhow/columns/#decarlo
                      > - I think he has some knowledge of agile methods but
                      > thats not where he got the word 'extreme' from, and
                      > while what he writes is applicable to agile methods,
                      > it usually isn't knowingly taken from agile or XP (tho
                      > he does use the word 'agile' sometimes in the sense of
                      > agile organization/business). See also an outline at
                      >
                      <http://vsbabu.org/mt/archives/2003/05/16/guide_to_extreme_project_man
                      agement.html>



                      Doug's point of view/process was presented on an PMI Information
                      Systems SIG Webinar yesterday. The discussion that accompanied his
                      powerpoint show showed that his thoughts, if not his descriptions,
                      are closer to what I am learning about Agile (via this users group).
                      It is a departure from the typical waterfall, lock-step that PMBOK
                      forces on traditional PMs. However, I don't think he truly "gets"
                      agileness.

                      Catherine
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