Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Agile Buzz

Expand Messages
  • Dean Goodmanson
    Artima.com is hosting a new weblog aggregator feature under the heading Buzz Announcement: http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=5601 Currently
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 8, 2003
      Artima.com is hosting a new weblog aggregator feature
      under the heading "Buzz"

      Announcement:
      http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=5601

      Currently there are only 3 blogs in the Agile
      category:

      http://www.artima.com/buzz/community.jsp?forum=155

      with a minor Scrum note on this entry:
      http://gigavolt.net/blog/2003/07/01#renamingtdd ...
      looking forward to more.

      --
      Dean
      http://sqr.pycs.net


      __________________________________
      Do you Yahoo!?
      SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
      http://sbc.yahoo.com
    • Marco Abis
      Hi everybody, I would like to know what those of you who know eXtreme Project Management think about it. I ve just read a lot of docs about XPM and I m not
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 11, 2003
        Hi everybody,

        I would like to know what those of you who know eXtreme Project Management think about it. I've just read a lot of docs about XPM and I'm not completely convinced. Maybe this is because I've never used it but at the end of my study on it I've two different but contemporary feelings:

        - nothing really new, just a lot of things taken from others Agile approaches;
        - a way to profit by the word eXtreme (contributing this way in making Agile just a buzz word);

        I look forward for someone who can explain me where and why I'm wrong (or I'm right). I'm asking this here instead of, for example, extremeprogramming group because it concerns the management so I think XPM is closer to Scrum than XP (despite the name).

        Cheers :)

        Marco Abis
        Agility SPI: Software Process Improvement
        abis@... - abis@...
        http://agilemovement.it
      • Ken Schwaber
        You are right. XPM isn t anything to do with extreme or agile, as much as a list of common sense practices that have been in books for years. Someone named
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 11, 2003
          You are right. XPM isn't anything to do with extreme or agile, as much as a
          list of common sense practices that have been in books for years. Someone
          named James McGovern is also calling himself the Father of Agile
          Outsourcing. We'll probably get to see a lot of presumptuousness mixed in
          with raw arrogance and greed. Something similar happened to CMM about this
          time.
          Ken

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Marco Abis [mailto:abis@...]
          Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 5:34 AM
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Questioning eXtreme Project Management




          Hi everybody,

          I would like to know what those of you who know eXtreme Project
          Management think about it. I've just read a lot of docs about XPM and I'm
          not completely convinced. Maybe this is because I've never used it but at
          the end of my study on it I've two different but contemporary feelings:

          - nothing really new, just a lot of things taken from others Agile
          approaches;
          - a way to profit by the word eXtreme (contributing this way in making Agile
          just a buzz word);

          I look forward for someone who can explain me where and why I'm wrong (or
          I'm right). I'm asking this here instead of, for example, extremeprogramming
          group because it concerns the management so I think XPM is closer to Scrum
          than XP (despite the name).

          Cheers :)

          Marco Abis
          Agility SPI: Software Process Improvement
          abis@... - abis@...
          http://agilemovement.it



          To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
          To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
          scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...

          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • Brad Appleton
          ... Can you be specific about which source you obtained the XPM info from? I ve seen no less than 4 or 5 different things calling themselves XPM and some of
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 11, 2003
            On Fri, Jul 11, 2003 at 11:33:45AM +0200, Marco Abis wrote:
            > I would like to know what those of you who know eXtreme Project Management think about it. I've just read a lot of docs about XPM

            Can you be specific about which source you obtained the XPM info from? I've seen no less than 4 or 5 different things calling themselves XPM and some of them have nothing to do with "agility".

            Rob Thomsett has a book and a site about what he calls XPM. And I've heard a lot of good things about it from a lot of people in the agile community. I also have the book and it looks pretty good to me.

            I agree a lot of it is nothing new. Then again, keep in mind a lot of what's in eXtreme Programming was nothing new. What was new is the particular combination of practices, and the emphasis on people and communication. Thomsett's XPM has borrowed some stuff from agile things, but agile borrowed some stuff from him too as he was writing about his stuff before we started using the word "agile" to describe these methods. I consider his stuff part of the agile movement rather than trying to piggyback on it. I've reason to think Highsmith would tend to agree with that to (but I should let Jim speak for himself :)

            I guess I want to emphasize that (!new != !good). The whole idea behind software patterns was to disseminate common practices documented with uncommonly good insight. I think Thomsett does the same for XPM practices. I think he is not trying to take advantage of the 'Extreme' word anymore than XP is :-)
            --
            Brad Appleton <brad@...> www.bradapp.net
            Software CM Patterns (www.scmpatterns.com)
            Effective Teamwork, Practical Integration
            "And miles to go before I sleep." -- Robert Frost
          • Marco Abis
            ... really a lot of sources, just a few: - http://www.cutter.com/freestuff/epmr0102.html -
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 11, 2003
              >Can you be specific about which source you obtained the XPM info from? I've seen no less than 4 or 5 different things calling themselves XPM and some of them have nothing to do with "agility".

              really a lot of sources, just a few:

              - http://www.cutter.com/freestuff/epmr0102.html
              - http://www.informit.com/content/index.asp?product_id={B5CE5B8C-04DF-4572-84FA-FAF6FE32C74C}&session_id={948C285D-F9C9-4608-A99B-45B6946763C5}
              - http://www.refresher.com/!extremereview.html

              and some Yourdon papers (and a book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0130621102/edyourdonswebsitA/) and many more.

              >I guess I want to emphasize that (!new != !good). The whole idea behind software patterns was to disseminate common practices documented with uncommonly good insight.

              of course! But If a take some practices (loosing principles) from Scrum, something from Lean and something from ASD and I call it 'eXtreme Buzzing' this new approach isn't new and isn't also good (and I'll try also to sell it as my new, revolutionary silver bullet :)) But I'm not writing about Thomsett (I've ordered his book, not read yet).

              >I think he is not trying to take advantage of the 'Extreme' word anymore than XP is :-)

              Again I'm not speaking about Thomsett in praticlura but what I mean is that when XPers took the word 'extreme' they weren't referring to anything else while all this "new eXtreme Something" are clearly trying to take advantage of XP and not of the 'extreme' word itself.

              Cheers



              Marco Abis
              Agility SPI: Software Process Improvement
              abis@... - abis@...
              http://agilemovement.it
            • Brad Appleton
              ... Okay - just keep in mind they are not all the same thing. Some of them are borrowing extreme because the word itself is sort of a buzzword (even before
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 11, 2003
                On Fri, Jul 11, 2003 at 06:00:37PM +0200, Marco Abis wrote:
                > really a lot of sources, just a few:

                Okay - just keep in mind they are not all the same thing. Some of them are borrowing 'extreme' because the word itself is sort of a buzzword (even before XP used it - that as in fact one of the reasons why XP used it). Some of them are borrowing the word from XP.

                > of course! But If a take some practices (losing principles) from Scrum, something from Lean and something from ASD and I call it 'eXtreme Buzzing' this new approach isn't new and isn't also good (and I'll try also to sell it as my new, revolutionary silver bullet :))

                Yes. I think we need to evaluate on a case-by-case basis which
                XPMs incarnations are doing that and which ones aren't. Some
                of them aren't explicitly borrowing from so much as having
                practices in common with them because they both discovered
                they are good and that they work.

                > Again I'm not speaking about Thomsett in praticlura but what I mean is that when XPers took the word 'extreme' they weren't referring to anything else while all this "new eXtreme Something" are clearly trying to take advantage of XP and not of the 'extreme' word itself.

                Again, some of them are. But some of them aren't - a few of the 'XPM' incarnations them haven't even heard of 'extreme programming' or even of agile software methods.
                --
                Brad Appleton <brad@...> www.bradapp.net
                Software CM Patterns (www.scmpatterns.com)
                Effective Teamwork, Practical Integration
                "And miles to go before I sleep." -- Robert Frost
              • Marco Abis
                Thanks Brad, could you (and/or anyone else) list all the different XPMs you ve heard/read about? So that I ll be able to separate them and study them in an
                Message 7 of 16 , Jul 11, 2003
                  Thanks Brad,

                  could you (and/or anyone else) list all the different XPMs you've heard/read about? So that I'll be able to separate them and study them in an organic way.

                  Cheers

                  Marco Abis
                  Agility SPI: Software Process Improvement
                  abis@... - abis@...
                  http://agilemovement.it
                • Brad Appleton
                  ... There is an XPM at http://www.extreme-pm.com that is no relation to the agile movement. Doug DeCarlo has a series of articles in his A Different Drummer
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jul 11, 2003
                    On Fri, Jul 11, 2003 at 06:26:39PM +0200, Marco Abis wrote:
                    > could you (and/or anyone else) list all the different XPMs you've heard/read about? So that I'll be able to separate them and study them in an organic way.

                    There is an XPM at http://www.extreme-pm.com that is no relation
                    to the agile movement.

                    Doug DeCarlo has a series of articles in his "A Different
                    Drummer" column on "extreme project management" at
                    http://www.projectconnections.com/knowhow/columns/#decarlo
                    - I think he has some knowledge of agile methods but
                    thats not where he got the word 'extreme' from, and
                    while what he writes is applicable to agile methods,
                    it usually isn't knowingly taken from agile or XP (tho
                    he does use the word 'agile' sometimes in the sense of
                    agile organization/business). See also an outline at
                    <http://vsbabu.org/mt/archives/2003/05/16/guide_to_extreme_project_management.html>

                    There is a website http://ShootTheProjectManager.com/ that
                    sometimes uses the word "extreme" and "radical" that is also
                    not derived from agile or XP but is certainly applicable to
                    the issues of people, high collaboration, and managing rapidly
                    changing stakeholder expectations/requirements

                    Donna Fitgerald has a "Nimble Project
                    Manager" column at Builder.com (see articles at
                    http://builder.com.com/columns.jhtml?browseParam=nblpromr) where
                    she too is aware of agile, but her stuff really isn't so much
                    part of that - even tho parts of it are applicable. I think her
                    use of "Nimble" comes from Darryl Conner's book "Leading at the
                    Edge of Chaos: the art and practice of t he nimble organization"
                    which comes from the domain of organizational agility

                    Shaun Ajani has a bunch of articles on
                    "Extreme Project Management" you can see at
                    http://www.refresher.com/archives37.html He also has a book
                    coming out entitled "Extreme Project Management: Unique
                    Methodologies - Resolute Principles - Astounding Results".
                    I read the description on Amazon and it seemed very PMI-based
                    and heavy or counter-agile to me - but I can't claim to have
                    looked at it closely enough. Glen Alleman reviewed the book
                    at http://www.niwotridge.com/BookReviews/ExtremePM.htm
                    and based on what I've seen from Glen I would be inclined to
                    trust his judgement 100%.

                    Ed Yourdon has a site/seminar on XPM at
                    http://www.yourdon.com/seminars/XPM.HTML which is about
                    project management for high-intensity projects (and he has a
                    book of the same name about managing high-intensity internet
                    projects), including but not limited to agile and XP projects.
                    I think Ed did take the 'extreme' directly from XP - but at the
                    same time, a lot of the stuff he talks about is stuff from his
                    own vast knowledge and experience (he is one of "the" software
                    gurus in the field, on a par with Gerry Weinberg) and some of
                    his stuff is in common with agile and not necessarily stolen
                    (but some of it is just plain borrowed - which is okay). Even
                    tho some of his stuff is borrowed - it is still good, and deserves
                    looking into. Its not simply rewarmed "hype" to make money. Ed's
                    been around the block longer than most and knows what of he writes.

                    And of course Rob Thomsett has a book on XPM
                    entitled "Radical Project Management" and a website at
                    http://www.thomsett.com.au/. You can read more about Rob's
                    "XPM" at his website or on Amazon or at InformIT.com (which
                    has several articles). Rob is also a senior advisor to cutter
                    consortium (invited I think by Jim Highsmith) so Rob'x XPMis
                    "the real deal" and NOT some cheap knock-off trying to exploit
                    XP/Agile. Glen Alleman has reviewed this book too at
                    http://www.niwotridge.com/BookReviews/RadicalPM.htm
                    he says the book is actually some pretty traditional PM with
                    some "radical" thrown in and has some older essays are a bit
                    outdated. I think Thomsett's more recent stuff for Cutter is
                    perhaps more up-to-date.

                    Hope that helps! I'm sure there are some other "XPM" or "Agile
                    PM" methods out and about. Maybe someone will post them if
                    they know of them.

                    --
                    Brad Appleton <brad@...> www.bradapp.net
                    Software CM Patterns (www.scmpatterns.com)
                    Effective Teamwork, Practical Integration
                    "And miles to go before I sleep." -- Robert Frost
                  • Mike Beedle
                    ... gement.html Brad: When we were at Snowbird I proposed to use the word agile to describe what we perceived to be a different kind of software
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jul 11, 2003
                      Brad wrote:
                      >Doug DeCarlo has a series of articles in his "A Different
                      >Drummer" column on "extreme project management" at
                      >http://www.projectconnections.com/knowhow/columns/#decarlo
                      >- I think he has some knowledge of agile methods but
                      >Thats not where he got the word 'extreme' from, and
                      >While what he writes is applicable to agile methods,
                      >it usually isn't knowingly taken from agile or XP (tho
                      >he does use the word 'agile' sometimes in the sense of
                      >agile organization/business). See also an outline at
                      ><http://vsbabu.org/mt/archives/2003/05/16/guide_to_extreme_project_mana
                      gement.html>


                      Brad:

                      When we were at Snowbird I proposed to use the word
                      "agile" to describe what we perceived to be "a different
                      kind of software development already practiced
                      for years by some", because we were looking for a word that
                      executives and software development management
                      _already knew_ and recognized but that they could
                      associate as being "people-oriented, lightweight, adaptable,
                      self-organizing, flexible, and high performance". Basically
                      we were searching for a business friendly word that would
                      describe accurately the nature of the kind of
                      software development we were talking about and was
                      recognizable by who we perceived to be the ultimate decision
                      makers of the fate of anything in software:

                      the business, IT and software management
                      (The rule is: if these people don't buy <x> it dies.)

                      There were in fact many other words flying around
                      in the room: adaptable, synergistic, lightweight,
                      lean, extreme, self-organizing, etc. But we consciously
                      tried to choose a word that would make the
                      "<X> movement" with a the "<X> manifesto" successful.

                      We put different words to a vote and "agile" won
                      its way into history because in our perception, it
                      was already recognized by business and software
                      management, from the "Agile Manufacturing"
                      and "Agile Enterprise" concepts that came after BPR (business
                      process reengineering) but before "Knowledge Management",
                      and was associated with success (or at least it
                      wasn't associated with the perceived massive failures
                      of BPR, Knowledge Management, Business Intelligence,
                      etc.)

                      So as it turns out to be, we, the Agile Software Developers
                      of the world, also use the word "agile" as in:

                      Agile Organization
                      Agile Business
                      Agile Enterprise
                      Agile Manufacturing
                      Etc.

                      That's why we chose the word.

                      From a more technical perspective, Stu Kauffman argues that:

                      Coevolving systems optimize their capacity to
                      coevolve by mutually attaining the edge of chaos.

                      So that still our hope for the future:

                      _agile businesses_ that coevolve
                      with _agile development_ and _agile applications_

                      - Mike
                    • Mike Beedle
                      ... Brad: When we were at Snowbird I proposed to use the word agile to describe what we perceived to be a different kind of software development already
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jul 11, 2003
                        Brad wrote:
                        >Doug DeCarlo has a series of articles in his "A Different Drummer"
                        >column on "extreme project management" at
                        >http://www.projectconnections.com/knowhow/columns/#decarlo
                        >- I think he has some knowledge of agile methods but
                        >Thats not where he got the word 'extreme' from, and
                        >While what he writes is applicable to agile methods,
                        >it usually isn't knowingly taken from agile or XP (tho
                        >he does use the word 'agile' sometimes in the sense of
                        >agile organization/business). See also an outline at
                        ><http://vsbabu.org/mt/archives/2003/05/16/guide_to_extreme_project_mana
                        >gement.html>


                        Brad:

                        When we were at Snowbird I proposed to use the word
                        "agile" to describe what we perceived to be "a different
                        kind of software development already practiced
                        for years by some", because we were looking for a word that
                        executives and software development management _already knew_
                        and recognized but that they could associate as being
                        "people-oriented, lightweight, adaptable, self-organizing,
                        flexible, and high performance". Basically
                        we were searching for a business friendly word that would
                        describe accurately the nature of the kind of
                        software development we were talking about and was
                        recognizable by who we perceived to be the ultimate decision
                        makers of the fate of anything in software:

                        the business, IT and software management
                        (The rule is: if these people don't buy <x> it dies.)

                        There were in fact many other words flying around
                        in the room: adaptable, synergistic, lightweight,
                        lean, extreme, self-organizing, etc. But we consciously
                        tried to choose a word that would make the
                        "<X> movement" with a the "<X> manifesto" successful.

                        We put different words to a vote and "agile" won
                        its way into history because in our perception, it
                        was already recognized by business and software
                        management, from the "Agile Manufacturing"
                        and "Agile Enterprise" concepts that came after BPR (business
                        process reengineering) but before "Knowledge Management",
                        and was associated with success (or at least it
                        wasn't associated with the perceived massive failures
                        of BPR, Knowledge Management, Business Intelligence,
                        etc.)

                        So as it turns out to be, we, the Agile Software Developers
                        of the world, also use the word "agile" as in:

                        Agile Organization
                        Agile Business
                        Agile Enterprise
                        Agile Manufacturing
                        Etc.

                        That's why we chose the word.

                        From a more technical perspective, Stu Kauffman argues that:

                        Coevolving systems optimize their capacity to
                        coevolve by mutually attaining the edge of chaos.

                        So that still our hope for the future:

                        _agile businesses_ that coevolve
                        with _agile development_ and _agile applications_

                        - Mike
                      • Brad Appleton
                        ... Thanks Mike! (I actually knew that :). I was just trying to clarify where some of those other folks borrowed the use of extreme from (they all borrowed
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jul 12, 2003
                          On Sat, Jul 12, 2003 at 12:29:49AM -0500, Mike Beedle wrote:
                          > So as it turns out to be, we, the Agile Software Developers
                          > of the world, also use the word "agile" as in:
                          >
                          > Agile Organization
                          > Agile Business
                          > Agile Enterprise
                          > Agile Manufacturing
                          > Etc.
                          >
                          > That's why we chose the word.

                          Thanks Mike! (I actually knew that :). I was just trying to clarify where some of those other folks borrowed the use of 'extreme' from (they all borrowed it from something, and often even indirectly from the same underlying source. But some got it 'directly' from different sources other than agile SW methods"

                          I like "agile" myself better than most of those other alternatives (thank goodness "nimble" wasn't in the list - sorry but to me the word itself has a sound that evokes the image of a guy named "Jack" doing some rather unintelligent-sounding athletic maneuver that would unnecessarily and undesirably engage in thermodynamic heat transfer to his posterior :)

                          --
                          Brad Appleton <brad@...> www.bradapp.net
                          Software CM Patterns (www.scmpatterns.com)
                          Effective Teamwork, Practical Integration
                          "And miles to go before I sleep." -- Robert Frost
                        • castnerca
                          ... Doug s point of view/process was presented on an PMI
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jul 25, 2003
                            <Snip from Brad>
                            > Doug DeCarlo has a series of articles in his "A Different
                            > Drummer" column on "extreme project management" at
                            > http://www.projectconnections.com/knowhow/columns/#decarlo
                            > - I think he has some knowledge of agile methods but
                            > thats not where he got the word 'extreme' from, and
                            > while what he writes is applicable to agile methods,
                            > it usually isn't knowingly taken from agile or XP (tho
                            > he does use the word 'agile' sometimes in the sense of
                            > agile organization/business). See also an outline at
                            >
                            <http://vsbabu.org/mt/archives/2003/05/16/guide_to_extreme_project_man
                            agement.html>



                            Doug's point of view/process was presented on an PMI Information
                            Systems SIG Webinar yesterday. The discussion that accompanied his
                            powerpoint show showed that his thoughts, if not his descriptions,
                            are closer to what I am learning about Agile (via this users group).
                            It is a departure from the typical waterfall, lock-step that PMBOK
                            forces on traditional PMs. However, I don't think he truly "gets"
                            agileness.

                            Catherine
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.