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Re: Question: Splitting Product Backlog item for partial implementation

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  • Deb
    ... (rereading, late at night... missed a phrase) ... 9 ... and delete the original Product Backlog item or set to 0 hours.
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 7 9:53 PM
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      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Deb" <deborah@h...> wrote:
      (rereading, late at night... missed a phrase)
      >
      > (c) create new Product Backlog items, one for each of the remaining
      9
      > product lines, each with an estimate. ...

      and delete the original Product Backlog item or set to 0 hours.
    • bschatz@primavera.com
      Deb, I would suggest breaking into the 9 items, with an estimate for each. It seems like there is a possibility based on what occurred that you may need to
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 8 5:03 AM
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        Deb,

        I would suggest breaking into the 9 items, with an estimate for each. It
        seems like there is a possibility based on what occurred that you may need
        to choose again in the future which of the remaining 9 might be of higher
        priority than the others. Also, it helps when the team is picking their
        sprint backlog to have the activity already broken down for them.

        Bob



        "Deb"
        <deborah@hartmann To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        .net> cc:
        Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Question: Splitting Product Backlog item for partial
        07/08/2003 12:53 implementation
        AM
        Please respond to
        scrumdevelopment






        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Deb" <deborah@h...> wrote:
        (rereading, late at night... missed a phrase)
        >
        > (c) create new Product Backlog items, one for each of the remaining
        9
        > product lines, each with an estimate. ...

        and delete the original Product Backlog item or set to 0 hours.


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      • Mike Cohn
        I d do exactly what you describe. As long as (b) is easier to manage than (c) I d do that but if I didn t mind 9 extra items on the backlog I d do (c). Once
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 8 7:33 AM
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          I'd do exactly what you describe. As long as (b) is easier to manage than
          (c) I'd do that but if I didn't mind 9 extra items on the backlog I'd do
          (c). Once I'd added the feature to 2-3 products I'd just have separate items
          for all remaining products and would, as you suggest, just take guesses at
          the estimates.

          -Mike

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Deb [mailto:deborah@...]
          Sent: Monday, July 07, 2003 10:49 PM
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Question: Splitting Product Backlog item for
          partial implementation

          Hi, I know there may be discussion here on this, but couldn't think
          of search criteria that wouldn't turn up 200 items! (suggestions
          welcome)

          You have a "Feature Z" on the Product Backlog (100 hrs), and are
          looking at whether to put it in your next Sprint. As you discuss, you
          realise it's only top priority for your Home product line (12 hrs),
          and low priority for the remaining 9 product lines.

          It's a no-brainer to put "Feature Z - Home" into your next Sprint.
          The question then is: what do you do with the original Product
          Backlog item?

          (a) leave the name the same, reduce estimate by 12 hrs. (strong
          objection: name no longer clearly descriptive of work covered by
          estimate)

          (b) change the name to "Feature Z - except Home" and reduce estimate
          by 12 hrs. (mild objection: by the time you have implemented 4
          product lines in 4 sprints, this name could be unwieldy)

          (c) create new Product Backlog items, one for each of the remaining 9
          product lines, each with an estimate. (unsure: why take the time to
          estimate the 9 low-priority items? Or just guess?)

          I'd lean toward doing (b) because there are so many permutations,
          otherwise I guess I'd do (c).

          But is there some better alternative that I'm missing? Not sure what
          the recommended approach would be... what have you done in this
          situation?

          Thanks
          deb



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        • Dean Goodmanson
          Artima.com is hosting a new weblog aggregator feature under the heading Buzz Announcement: http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=5601 Currently
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 8 7:34 AM
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            Artima.com is hosting a new weblog aggregator feature
            under the heading "Buzz"

            Announcement:
            http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=5601

            Currently there are only 3 blogs in the Agile
            category:

            http://www.artima.com/buzz/community.jsp?forum=155

            with a minor Scrum note on this entry:
            http://gigavolt.net/blog/2003/07/01#renamingtdd ...
            looking forward to more.

            --
            Dean
            http://sqr.pycs.net


            __________________________________
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          • Marco Abis
            Hi everybody, I would like to know what those of you who know eXtreme Project Management think about it. I ve just read a lot of docs about XPM and I m not
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 11 2:33 AM
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              Hi everybody,

              I would like to know what those of you who know eXtreme Project Management think about it. I've just read a lot of docs about XPM and I'm not completely convinced. Maybe this is because I've never used it but at the end of my study on it I've two different but contemporary feelings:

              - nothing really new, just a lot of things taken from others Agile approaches;
              - a way to profit by the word eXtreme (contributing this way in making Agile just a buzz word);

              I look forward for someone who can explain me where and why I'm wrong (or I'm right). I'm asking this here instead of, for example, extremeprogramming group because it concerns the management so I think XPM is closer to Scrum than XP (despite the name).

              Cheers :)

              Marco Abis
              Agility SPI: Software Process Improvement
              abis@... - abis@...
              http://agilemovement.it
            • Ken Schwaber
              You are right. XPM isn t anything to do with extreme or agile, as much as a list of common sense practices that have been in books for years. Someone named
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 11 6:19 AM
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                You are right. XPM isn't anything to do with extreme or agile, as much as a
                list of common sense practices that have been in books for years. Someone
                named James McGovern is also calling himself the Father of Agile
                Outsourcing. We'll probably get to see a lot of presumptuousness mixed in
                with raw arrogance and greed. Something similar happened to CMM about this
                time.
                Ken

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Marco Abis [mailto:abis@...]
                Sent: Friday, July 11, 2003 5:34 AM
                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Questioning eXtreme Project Management




                Hi everybody,

                I would like to know what those of you who know eXtreme Project
                Management think about it. I've just read a lot of docs about XPM and I'm
                not completely convinced. Maybe this is because I've never used it but at
                the end of my study on it I've two different but contemporary feelings:

                - nothing really new, just a lot of things taken from others Agile
                approaches;
                - a way to profit by the word eXtreme (contributing this way in making Agile
                just a buzz word);

                I look forward for someone who can explain me where and why I'm wrong (or
                I'm right). I'm asking this here instead of, for example, extremeprogramming
                group because it concerns the management so I think XPM is closer to Scrum
                than XP (despite the name).

                Cheers :)

                Marco Abis
                Agility SPI: Software Process Improvement
                abis@... - abis@...
                http://agilemovement.it



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                To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
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              • Brad Appleton
                ... Can you be specific about which source you obtained the XPM info from? I ve seen no less than 4 or 5 different things calling themselves XPM and some of
                Message 7 of 16 , Jul 11 8:43 AM
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                  On Fri, Jul 11, 2003 at 11:33:45AM +0200, Marco Abis wrote:
                  > I would like to know what those of you who know eXtreme Project Management think about it. I've just read a lot of docs about XPM

                  Can you be specific about which source you obtained the XPM info from? I've seen no less than 4 or 5 different things calling themselves XPM and some of them have nothing to do with "agility".

                  Rob Thomsett has a book and a site about what he calls XPM. And I've heard a lot of good things about it from a lot of people in the agile community. I also have the book and it looks pretty good to me.

                  I agree a lot of it is nothing new. Then again, keep in mind a lot of what's in eXtreme Programming was nothing new. What was new is the particular combination of practices, and the emphasis on people and communication. Thomsett's XPM has borrowed some stuff from agile things, but agile borrowed some stuff from him too as he was writing about his stuff before we started using the word "agile" to describe these methods. I consider his stuff part of the agile movement rather than trying to piggyback on it. I've reason to think Highsmith would tend to agree with that to (but I should let Jim speak for himself :)

                  I guess I want to emphasize that (!new != !good). The whole idea behind software patterns was to disseminate common practices documented with uncommonly good insight. I think Thomsett does the same for XPM practices. I think he is not trying to take advantage of the 'Extreme' word anymore than XP is :-)
                  --
                  Brad Appleton <brad@...> www.bradapp.net
                  Software CM Patterns (www.scmpatterns.com)
                  Effective Teamwork, Practical Integration
                  "And miles to go before I sleep." -- Robert Frost
                • Marco Abis
                  ... really a lot of sources, just a few: - http://www.cutter.com/freestuff/epmr0102.html -
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jul 11 9:00 AM
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                    >Can you be specific about which source you obtained the XPM info from? I've seen no less than 4 or 5 different things calling themselves XPM and some of them have nothing to do with "agility".

                    really a lot of sources, just a few:

                    - http://www.cutter.com/freestuff/epmr0102.html
                    - http://www.informit.com/content/index.asp?product_id={B5CE5B8C-04DF-4572-84FA-FAF6FE32C74C}&session_id={948C285D-F9C9-4608-A99B-45B6946763C5}
                    - http://www.refresher.com/!extremereview.html

                    and some Yourdon papers (and a book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0130621102/edyourdonswebsitA/) and many more.

                    >I guess I want to emphasize that (!new != !good). The whole idea behind software patterns was to disseminate common practices documented with uncommonly good insight.

                    of course! But If a take some practices (loosing principles) from Scrum, something from Lean and something from ASD and I call it 'eXtreme Buzzing' this new approach isn't new and isn't also good (and I'll try also to sell it as my new, revolutionary silver bullet :)) But I'm not writing about Thomsett (I've ordered his book, not read yet).

                    >I think he is not trying to take advantage of the 'Extreme' word anymore than XP is :-)

                    Again I'm not speaking about Thomsett in praticlura but what I mean is that when XPers took the word 'extreme' they weren't referring to anything else while all this "new eXtreme Something" are clearly trying to take advantage of XP and not of the 'extreme' word itself.

                    Cheers



                    Marco Abis
                    Agility SPI: Software Process Improvement
                    abis@... - abis@...
                    http://agilemovement.it
                  • Brad Appleton
                    ... Okay - just keep in mind they are not all the same thing. Some of them are borrowing extreme because the word itself is sort of a buzzword (even before
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jul 11 9:18 AM
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                      On Fri, Jul 11, 2003 at 06:00:37PM +0200, Marco Abis wrote:
                      > really a lot of sources, just a few:

                      Okay - just keep in mind they are not all the same thing. Some of them are borrowing 'extreme' because the word itself is sort of a buzzword (even before XP used it - that as in fact one of the reasons why XP used it). Some of them are borrowing the word from XP.

                      > of course! But If a take some practices (losing principles) from Scrum, something from Lean and something from ASD and I call it 'eXtreme Buzzing' this new approach isn't new and isn't also good (and I'll try also to sell it as my new, revolutionary silver bullet :))

                      Yes. I think we need to evaluate on a case-by-case basis which
                      XPMs incarnations are doing that and which ones aren't. Some
                      of them aren't explicitly borrowing from so much as having
                      practices in common with them because they both discovered
                      they are good and that they work.

                      > Again I'm not speaking about Thomsett in praticlura but what I mean is that when XPers took the word 'extreme' they weren't referring to anything else while all this "new eXtreme Something" are clearly trying to take advantage of XP and not of the 'extreme' word itself.

                      Again, some of them are. But some of them aren't - a few of the 'XPM' incarnations them haven't even heard of 'extreme programming' or even of agile software methods.
                      --
                      Brad Appleton <brad@...> www.bradapp.net
                      Software CM Patterns (www.scmpatterns.com)
                      Effective Teamwork, Practical Integration
                      "And miles to go before I sleep." -- Robert Frost
                    • Marco Abis
                      Thanks Brad, could you (and/or anyone else) list all the different XPMs you ve heard/read about? So that I ll be able to separate them and study them in an
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jul 11 9:26 AM
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                        Thanks Brad,

                        could you (and/or anyone else) list all the different XPMs you've heard/read about? So that I'll be able to separate them and study them in an organic way.

                        Cheers

                        Marco Abis
                        Agility SPI: Software Process Improvement
                        abis@... - abis@...
                        http://agilemovement.it
                      • Brad Appleton
                        ... There is an XPM at http://www.extreme-pm.com that is no relation to the agile movement. Doug DeCarlo has a series of articles in his A Different Drummer
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jul 11 4:05 PM
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                          On Fri, Jul 11, 2003 at 06:26:39PM +0200, Marco Abis wrote:
                          > could you (and/or anyone else) list all the different XPMs you've heard/read about? So that I'll be able to separate them and study them in an organic way.

                          There is an XPM at http://www.extreme-pm.com that is no relation
                          to the agile movement.

                          Doug DeCarlo has a series of articles in his "A Different
                          Drummer" column on "extreme project management" at
                          http://www.projectconnections.com/knowhow/columns/#decarlo
                          - I think he has some knowledge of agile methods but
                          thats not where he got the word 'extreme' from, and
                          while what he writes is applicable to agile methods,
                          it usually isn't knowingly taken from agile or XP (tho
                          he does use the word 'agile' sometimes in the sense of
                          agile organization/business). See also an outline at
                          <http://vsbabu.org/mt/archives/2003/05/16/guide_to_extreme_project_management.html>

                          There is a website http://ShootTheProjectManager.com/ that
                          sometimes uses the word "extreme" and "radical" that is also
                          not derived from agile or XP but is certainly applicable to
                          the issues of people, high collaboration, and managing rapidly
                          changing stakeholder expectations/requirements

                          Donna Fitgerald has a "Nimble Project
                          Manager" column at Builder.com (see articles at
                          http://builder.com.com/columns.jhtml?browseParam=nblpromr) where
                          she too is aware of agile, but her stuff really isn't so much
                          part of that - even tho parts of it are applicable. I think her
                          use of "Nimble" comes from Darryl Conner's book "Leading at the
                          Edge of Chaos: the art and practice of t he nimble organization"
                          which comes from the domain of organizational agility

                          Shaun Ajani has a bunch of articles on
                          "Extreme Project Management" you can see at
                          http://www.refresher.com/archives37.html He also has a book
                          coming out entitled "Extreme Project Management: Unique
                          Methodologies - Resolute Principles - Astounding Results".
                          I read the description on Amazon and it seemed very PMI-based
                          and heavy or counter-agile to me - but I can't claim to have
                          looked at it closely enough. Glen Alleman reviewed the book
                          at http://www.niwotridge.com/BookReviews/ExtremePM.htm
                          and based on what I've seen from Glen I would be inclined to
                          trust his judgement 100%.

                          Ed Yourdon has a site/seminar on XPM at
                          http://www.yourdon.com/seminars/XPM.HTML which is about
                          project management for high-intensity projects (and he has a
                          book of the same name about managing high-intensity internet
                          projects), including but not limited to agile and XP projects.
                          I think Ed did take the 'extreme' directly from XP - but at the
                          same time, a lot of the stuff he talks about is stuff from his
                          own vast knowledge and experience (he is one of "the" software
                          gurus in the field, on a par with Gerry Weinberg) and some of
                          his stuff is in common with agile and not necessarily stolen
                          (but some of it is just plain borrowed - which is okay). Even
                          tho some of his stuff is borrowed - it is still good, and deserves
                          looking into. Its not simply rewarmed "hype" to make money. Ed's
                          been around the block longer than most and knows what of he writes.

                          And of course Rob Thomsett has a book on XPM
                          entitled "Radical Project Management" and a website at
                          http://www.thomsett.com.au/. You can read more about Rob's
                          "XPM" at his website or on Amazon or at InformIT.com (which
                          has several articles). Rob is also a senior advisor to cutter
                          consortium (invited I think by Jim Highsmith) so Rob'x XPMis
                          "the real deal" and NOT some cheap knock-off trying to exploit
                          XP/Agile. Glen Alleman has reviewed this book too at
                          http://www.niwotridge.com/BookReviews/RadicalPM.htm
                          he says the book is actually some pretty traditional PM with
                          some "radical" thrown in and has some older essays are a bit
                          outdated. I think Thomsett's more recent stuff for Cutter is
                          perhaps more up-to-date.

                          Hope that helps! I'm sure there are some other "XPM" or "Agile
                          PM" methods out and about. Maybe someone will post them if
                          they know of them.

                          --
                          Brad Appleton <brad@...> www.bradapp.net
                          Software CM Patterns (www.scmpatterns.com)
                          Effective Teamwork, Practical Integration
                          "And miles to go before I sleep." -- Robert Frost
                        • Mike Beedle
                          ... gement.html Brad: When we were at Snowbird I proposed to use the word agile to describe what we perceived to be a different kind of software
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jul 11 10:29 PM
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                            Brad wrote:
                            >Doug DeCarlo has a series of articles in his "A Different
                            >Drummer" column on "extreme project management" at
                            >http://www.projectconnections.com/knowhow/columns/#decarlo
                            >- I think he has some knowledge of agile methods but
                            >Thats not where he got the word 'extreme' from, and
                            >While what he writes is applicable to agile methods,
                            >it usually isn't knowingly taken from agile or XP (tho
                            >he does use the word 'agile' sometimes in the sense of
                            >agile organization/business). See also an outline at
                            ><http://vsbabu.org/mt/archives/2003/05/16/guide_to_extreme_project_mana
                            gement.html>


                            Brad:

                            When we were at Snowbird I proposed to use the word
                            "agile" to describe what we perceived to be "a different
                            kind of software development already practiced
                            for years by some", because we were looking for a word that
                            executives and software development management
                            _already knew_ and recognized but that they could
                            associate as being "people-oriented, lightweight, adaptable,
                            self-organizing, flexible, and high performance". Basically
                            we were searching for a business friendly word that would
                            describe accurately the nature of the kind of
                            software development we were talking about and was
                            recognizable by who we perceived to be the ultimate decision
                            makers of the fate of anything in software:

                            the business, IT and software management
                            (The rule is: if these people don't buy <x> it dies.)

                            There were in fact many other words flying around
                            in the room: adaptable, synergistic, lightweight,
                            lean, extreme, self-organizing, etc. But we consciously
                            tried to choose a word that would make the
                            "<X> movement" with a the "<X> manifesto" successful.

                            We put different words to a vote and "agile" won
                            its way into history because in our perception, it
                            was already recognized by business and software
                            management, from the "Agile Manufacturing"
                            and "Agile Enterprise" concepts that came after BPR (business
                            process reengineering) but before "Knowledge Management",
                            and was associated with success (or at least it
                            wasn't associated with the perceived massive failures
                            of BPR, Knowledge Management, Business Intelligence,
                            etc.)

                            So as it turns out to be, we, the Agile Software Developers
                            of the world, also use the word "agile" as in:

                            Agile Organization
                            Agile Business
                            Agile Enterprise
                            Agile Manufacturing
                            Etc.

                            That's why we chose the word.

                            From a more technical perspective, Stu Kauffman argues that:

                            Coevolving systems optimize their capacity to
                            coevolve by mutually attaining the edge of chaos.

                            So that still our hope for the future:

                            _agile businesses_ that coevolve
                            with _agile development_ and _agile applications_

                            - Mike
                          • Mike Beedle
                            ... Brad: When we were at Snowbird I proposed to use the word agile to describe what we perceived to be a different kind of software development already
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jul 11 10:31 PM
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                              Brad wrote:
                              >Doug DeCarlo has a series of articles in his "A Different Drummer"
                              >column on "extreme project management" at
                              >http://www.projectconnections.com/knowhow/columns/#decarlo
                              >- I think he has some knowledge of agile methods but
                              >Thats not where he got the word 'extreme' from, and
                              >While what he writes is applicable to agile methods,
                              >it usually isn't knowingly taken from agile or XP (tho
                              >he does use the word 'agile' sometimes in the sense of
                              >agile organization/business). See also an outline at
                              ><http://vsbabu.org/mt/archives/2003/05/16/guide_to_extreme_project_mana
                              >gement.html>


                              Brad:

                              When we were at Snowbird I proposed to use the word
                              "agile" to describe what we perceived to be "a different
                              kind of software development already practiced
                              for years by some", because we were looking for a word that
                              executives and software development management _already knew_
                              and recognized but that they could associate as being
                              "people-oriented, lightweight, adaptable, self-organizing,
                              flexible, and high performance". Basically
                              we were searching for a business friendly word that would
                              describe accurately the nature of the kind of
                              software development we were talking about and was
                              recognizable by who we perceived to be the ultimate decision
                              makers of the fate of anything in software:

                              the business, IT and software management
                              (The rule is: if these people don't buy <x> it dies.)

                              There were in fact many other words flying around
                              in the room: adaptable, synergistic, lightweight,
                              lean, extreme, self-organizing, etc. But we consciously
                              tried to choose a word that would make the
                              "<X> movement" with a the "<X> manifesto" successful.

                              We put different words to a vote and "agile" won
                              its way into history because in our perception, it
                              was already recognized by business and software
                              management, from the "Agile Manufacturing"
                              and "Agile Enterprise" concepts that came after BPR (business
                              process reengineering) but before "Knowledge Management",
                              and was associated with success (or at least it
                              wasn't associated with the perceived massive failures
                              of BPR, Knowledge Management, Business Intelligence,
                              etc.)

                              So as it turns out to be, we, the Agile Software Developers
                              of the world, also use the word "agile" as in:

                              Agile Organization
                              Agile Business
                              Agile Enterprise
                              Agile Manufacturing
                              Etc.

                              That's why we chose the word.

                              From a more technical perspective, Stu Kauffman argues that:

                              Coevolving systems optimize their capacity to
                              coevolve by mutually attaining the edge of chaos.

                              So that still our hope for the future:

                              _agile businesses_ that coevolve
                              with _agile development_ and _agile applications_

                              - Mike
                            • Brad Appleton
                              ... Thanks Mike! (I actually knew that :). I was just trying to clarify where some of those other folks borrowed the use of extreme from (they all borrowed
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jul 12 12:29 AM
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                                On Sat, Jul 12, 2003 at 12:29:49AM -0500, Mike Beedle wrote:
                                > So as it turns out to be, we, the Agile Software Developers
                                > of the world, also use the word "agile" as in:
                                >
                                > Agile Organization
                                > Agile Business
                                > Agile Enterprise
                                > Agile Manufacturing
                                > Etc.
                                >
                                > That's why we chose the word.

                                Thanks Mike! (I actually knew that :). I was just trying to clarify where some of those other folks borrowed the use of 'extreme' from (they all borrowed it from something, and often even indirectly from the same underlying source. But some got it 'directly' from different sources other than agile SW methods"

                                I like "agile" myself better than most of those other alternatives (thank goodness "nimble" wasn't in the list - sorry but to me the word itself has a sound that evokes the image of a guy named "Jack" doing some rather unintelligent-sounding athletic maneuver that would unnecessarily and undesirably engage in thermodynamic heat transfer to his posterior :)

                                --
                                Brad Appleton <brad@...> www.bradapp.net
                                Software CM Patterns (www.scmpatterns.com)
                                Effective Teamwork, Practical Integration
                                "And miles to go before I sleep." -- Robert Frost
                              • castnerca
                                ... Doug s point of view/process was presented on an PMI
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jul 25 3:04 PM
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                                  <Snip from Brad>
                                  > Doug DeCarlo has a series of articles in his "A Different
                                  > Drummer" column on "extreme project management" at
                                  > http://www.projectconnections.com/knowhow/columns/#decarlo
                                  > - I think he has some knowledge of agile methods but
                                  > thats not where he got the word 'extreme' from, and
                                  > while what he writes is applicable to agile methods,
                                  > it usually isn't knowingly taken from agile or XP (tho
                                  > he does use the word 'agile' sometimes in the sense of
                                  > agile organization/business). See also an outline at
                                  >
                                  <http://vsbabu.org/mt/archives/2003/05/16/guide_to_extreme_project_man
                                  agement.html>



                                  Doug's point of view/process was presented on an PMI Information
                                  Systems SIG Webinar yesterday. The discussion that accompanied his
                                  powerpoint show showed that his thoughts, if not his descriptions,
                                  are closer to what I am learning about Agile (via this users group).
                                  It is a departure from the typical waterfall, lock-step that PMBOK
                                  forces on traditional PMs. However, I don't think he truly "gets"
                                  agileness.

                                  Catherine
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