Ken, I knew it was only a matter of time before you submitted to
Microsoft as well.

There were a couple of very telling points from Randy Miller's
presentation that I saw last week.

- First generation Agile processes are Scrum, XP v1, FDD, and DSDM.
- First generation Agile processes "practice" to get everyone to work
together.
- Second generation Agile processes expand the number of roles, relax
communication (daily standups are optional), and add complexity.
- Second generation Agile processes are Enterprise Scrum, XP v2,
Crystal, and MSF for Agile SW Development.

I love the comment on "practice"; thats a classic.

How are Second generation Agile processes better??? More roles (I
didnt realize the TEAM role was exclusive), more complexity (always a
benefit), and less communication.

I may have to convert to MSF as well.

Thanks,
Ryan

--- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Schwaber"
<ken.schwaber@...> wrote:

>
> I'm working on a book for MS Press called Enterprise Scrum?
>
> Ken
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mitch Lacey
> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 11:12 PM
> To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Enterprise Scrum released???
>
>
>
> Ken gave a talk at Agile 2006 on Enterprise Scrum that several

Microsoft

> folks (me included) attended.
>
>
>
> Perhaps this is what was meant.
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of kesslerryan
> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 3:42 PM
> To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Enterprise Scrum released???
>
>
>
> I just heard from a Microsoft MSF architect that Enterprise Scrum

was

> just released. Can anyone shed any light on what this may mean? He
> made it sound like it was a new generation of the Scrum framework
> rather than a tool.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Ryan
>

kesslerryan wrote:

> Ken, I knew it was only a matter of time before you submitted to
> Microsoft as well.
>
> There were a couple of very telling points from Randy Miller's
> presentation that I saw last week.
>
> - First generation Agile processes are Scrum, XP v1, FDD, and DSDM.
> - First generation Agile processes "practice" to get everyone to work
> together.
> - Second generation Agile processes expand the number of roles, relax
> communication (daily standups are optional), and add complexity.

They are? Never heard of that.
How in the world do these second generation processes deal with
desyncronisation?

I think you're all generating rumours here, does anybody have facts?

--Hubert




--

All opinions in this message are my own, and are not necessarily shared by my employer.

Hi Ken,

I just said that you had discussed Enterprise Scrum at the Agile
Conference. I was there and I enjoyed your session.

Cheers,
Randy
PS Forgive my naivity, is there a Scrum 2.0?

--- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Schwaber"
<ken.schwaber@...> wrote:

>
> Microsoft's attempts to perjure Scrum led to Scrum 2.0. If the

people at

> Microsoft that are using Scrum to build product contributed, I'd be
> delighted. If the process people at Microsoft get piling on to

Scrum to

> prove their importance, I'll continue to regard it as irrelevant

but

> potentially disruptive.
>
> Ken
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kane Mar
> Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 2:06 AM
> To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Enterprise Scrum released???
>
>
>
> --- In scrumdevelopment@ <mailto:scrumdevelopment%

40yahoogroups.com>

> yahoogroups.com, "kesslerryan" <rkessler@>
> wrote:
> >
> > I just heard from a Microsoft MSF architect that Enterprise

Scrum was

> > just released. Can anyone shed any light on what this may mean?

He

> > made it sound like it was a new generation of the Scrum

framework

> > rather than a tool.
>
> MS released a tool that incorporated Scrum back in March. Ken made

a

> few comments that may be relevant to this discussion. You can find
> them here:
>
> http://groups.
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scrumdevelopment/message/10548>
> yahoo.com/group/scrumdevelopment/message/10548
>
> Best regards,
> Kane Mar
> W: http://www.Danube. <http://www.Danube.com> com
> B: http://KaneMar. <http://KaneMar.Wordpress.com> Wordpress.com
> G: http://www.frappr. <http://www.frappr.com/scrumtrainers>
> com/scrumtrainers
>

Hi Ryan,

I quoted Kent Beck from an XP Universe keynote when he said that
XP "out the box" was an "etude" or "musical Practice" to get
everyone to work together. He further went on to say that if you are
still using the same XP process (i.e. not adapting it) two or three
projects later, you may be missing something. Sorry if I wasn't
clear enough.

Cheers,
Randy
--- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "kesslerryan"
<rkessler@...> wrote:

>
> Ken, I knew it was only a matter of time before you submitted to
> Microsoft as well.
>
> There were a couple of very telling points from Randy Miller's
> presentation that I saw last week.
>
> - First generation Agile processes are Scrum, XP v1, FDD, and DSDM.
> - First generation Agile processes "practice" to get everyone to

work

> together.
> - Second generation Agile processes expand the number of roles,

relax

> communication (daily standups are optional), and add complexity.
> - Second generation Agile processes are Enterprise Scrum, XP v2,
> Crystal, and MSF for Agile SW Development.
>
> I love the comment on "practice"; thats a classic.
>
> How are Second generation Agile processes better??? More roles (I
> didnt realize the TEAM role was exclusive), more complexity

(always a

> benefit), and less communication.
>
> I may have to convert to MSF as well.
>
> Thanks,
> Ryan
>
> --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Ken Schwaber"
> <ken.schwaber@> wrote:
> >
> > I'm working on a book for MS Press called Enterprise Scrum?
> >
> > Ken
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mitch

Lacey

> > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 11:12 PM
> > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Enterprise Scrum released???
> >
> >
> >
> > Ken gave a talk at Agile 2006 on Enterprise Scrum that several
> Microsoft
> > folks (me included) attended.
> >
> >
> >
> > Perhaps this is what was meant.
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of

kesslerryan

> > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 3:42 PM
> > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Enterprise Scrum released???
> >
> >
> >
> > I just heard from a Microsoft MSF architect that Enterprise

Scrum

> was
> > just released. Can anyone shed any light on what this may mean?

He

> > made it sound like it was a new generation of the Scrum

framework

> > rather than a tool.
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> > Ryan
> >
>

Hi Randy,

> He further went on to say that if you are
> still using the same XP process (i.e. not adapting it) two or three
> projects later, you may be missing something.

I would be puzzled if a team is using the same Agile process after the
first few iterations!

Marco Abis

"let's not talk about Type A Scrum unless we also want to talk
about Type W Scrum, which is more commonly called Waterfall" (Mike Cohn)

http://brainscrum.wordpress.com
http://www.agilemovement.it :: Italian Agile Movement

--- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "ggmillerxp" <ggmillerxp@...>
wrote:

>
> Hi Ryan,
>
> I quoted Kent Beck from an XP Universe keynote when he said that
> XP "out the box" was an "etude" or "musical Practice" to get
> everyone to work together. He further went on to say that if you are
> still using the same XP process (i.e. not adapting it) two or three
> projects later, you may be missing something. Sorry if I wasn't
> clear enough.
>
> Cheers,
> Randy

What a fascinating thread this is - like watching a train wreck in
slow motion. Thanks, Hubert, for your call for facts.

When I see a thread like this, I always wish I could invite the
participants to a chatroom (or a real room!) in real time, to actually
have a discussion. But I don't know of a large-ish, browser-based
chatroom we could use. I ran one for a while but the limit of 5
people was annoying...

deb

Hi,

I've read that in a multidimensional system (like the social system
that builds software), when any dimension changes by a factor of ten
(which you hope for with agile ethic, structure, and practice), the
whole system changes phases, so that what worked before no longer
works (think stirring ice!), so I can see where you'd be constantly
tweaking your practices -- isn't that what retrospectives are for?

Scrum just gives you a structural framework where that's not only
possible; it's expected.

Pam
see Jamshid Gharajedaghi -- Systems Thinking: Managing in Chaos and
Complexity: A Framework for Business Architecture

--- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Marco Abis" <abis@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Randy,
>
> > He further went on to say that if you are
> > still using the same XP process (i.e. not adapting it) two or three
> > projects later, you may be missing something.
>
> I would be puzzled if a team is using the same Agile process after the
> first few iterations!
>
> Marco Abis
>
> "let's not talk about Type A Scrum unless we also want to talk
> about Type W Scrum, which is more commonly called Waterfall" (Mike Cohn)
>
> http://brainscrum.wordpress.com
> http://www.agilemovement.it :: Italian Agile Movement
>

--- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "kesslerryan" <rkessler@...>
wrote:

>
> I just heard from a Microsoft MSF architect that Enterprise Scrum

was

> just released. Can anyone shed any light on what this may mean? He
> made it sound like it was a new generation of the Scrum framework
> rather than a tool.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Ryan
>

For first reference to "Enterprise Scrum" see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scrumdevelopment/message/6118

Technical Description:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scrumdevelopment/message/6116

History:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scrumdevelopment/message/7726

- Mike

This is a Randy Miller, a methodologist at Microsoft, going nuts.
We've talked with him before an said that Scrum is fine as is and that
the extensions he suggests remove the flexibility and inherent
benefits of Scrum. Apparently he felt a need to proceed and ignored
the advice of those of us who use Scrum.

This thread is elsewhere in scrumdevellopment and pretty well said
there. Anyway, you just can't stop methologists, but you can be
compassionate because they can't seem to help themselves.

Ken


--- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "kesslerryan" <rkessler@...>
wrote:

>
> I just heard from a Microsoft MSF architect that Enterprise Scrum was
> just released. Can anyone shed any light on what this may mean? He
> made it sound like it was a new generation of the Scrum framework
> rather than a tool.
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Ryan
>