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RE: [scrumdevelopment] UP was Re: [XP] Agile 2.0

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  • Ken Schwaber
    Yes, I had a chance to consider it and to look at the materials. As I indicated in later postings, I view the work to be changing an organization to use the
    Message 1 of 57 , Aug 3, 2006
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      Yes, I had a chance to consider it and to look at the materials. As I indicated in later postings, I view the work to be changing an organization to use the Agile principles. The particular changes are removing waterfall thinking, believing in self-management, implementing true team cross-functionality, and introducing the value and quality concepts to managing time/date/cost based project management. And more, of course.

       

      I believe that all the rest of the process stuff is piling it on and is quite unnecessary. It only confuses everyone into believing that this is a process issue that process will solve. The fewer process people and the more change agents the better.

       

      Inadvertently, since solving problems with abstractions is our profession, I think that those who introduce more processes and unification processes and process frameworks are absolutely missing the point. Since a good number of these people also have reputations, they go beyond missing the point and confuse those that rely on them for guidance.

       

      Regards,

      Ken

       


      From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Ambler
      Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 1:04 PM
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] UP was Re: [XP] Agile 2.0

       

      Ken, I was wondering if you had a chance to consider the questions I
      posed below. It seems fair to me that you should at least indicate
      whether or not you had even read it before attacking it.

      Thanks in advance.

      - Scott

      --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com, "Scott Ambler" <swa@...>
      wrote:

      >
      > --- In scrumdevelopment@ yahoogroups. com,
      "Ken Schwaber" wrote:
      >
      > <snip>
      > > "Look at me, this is a great Agile
      > > approach. Pay me. "
      etc. has nothing to do with improving the
      software
      > > development profession, it has to do with making money, market
      > position,
      > > etc. EUP, AUP, etc. are such. They just don't get that Agile
      isn't
      > > prescriptive, and every step toward commercialization,
      > specialization is a step toward prescription.
      >
      > Ken, thank you for attacking my work publicly without bothering to
      > copy me on it. Be that as it may, I have a few questions for you.
      >
      > First, regarding the AUP:
      > 1. Have you even looked at it? It can be downloaded free of
      charge at
      > http://www.ambysoft .com/unifiedproc ess/agileUP. html
      if you haven't
      yet
      > done so.
      > 2. If you have, could you please explain to me the
      commercialization
      > aspects surrounding the AUP. It is available free of charge and
      > always has been.
      > 3. If you have, could you please explain to me its prescriptive
      > nature? As you can see, the disciplines (e.g. Model, Implement)
      are
      > described as a collection of tips (e.g. model just in time) and
      > suggested issues that you should consider addressing throughout
      the
      > various project phases. Granted, I suppose you could consider the
      > fact that I insist on a minimum of 8 deliverables (radical things
      such
      > as the system itself, tests, source code, and minimal supporting
      > documenation) to be prescriptive, but is that really so bad?
      >
      > Second, regarding the EUP:
      > 1. Have you ever read the book? An overview of it is available at
      > http://www.ambysoft .com/books/ enterpriseUnifie dProcess. html
      > 2. Could you please point me to where I claimed that the EUP is an
      > agile process? In fact, I seem to remember clearly stating that
      it's
      > typically instantiated as a prescriptive process, although perhaps
      I'm
      > confused on this issue. Granted, in the EUP book we did try to
      steer
      > people towards being as agile as possible, but at the enterprise
      level
      > that can be difficult at times.
      > 3. Could you please point me towards writings about enterprise
      issues
      > soch as enterprise architecture, reuse, portfolio management, and
      so
      > on where they've managed to go into more depth regarding how to
      make
      > these things even more agile?
      > 4. Once again, I'm a bit confused about the commercialization
      issue.
      > At www.enterpriseunifi edprocess. com I've gone out of my way to
      provide
      > free information about the EUP. Granted, I am trying to motivate
      > people to buy the book which provides far more details.
      >
      > Thanks in advance for answering these questions. I'm a little
      > confused as to why you'd make such sweeping statements about the
      AUP
      > and EUP without backing them up.
      >
      > - Scott
      >

    • Ron Jeffries
      Hello Eb, Thank you for your email. On Wednesday, August 9, 2006, at 5:06:12 ... Well, my point really is that I think courses don t make anyone Agile. All
      Message 57 of 57 , Aug 9, 2006
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        Hello Eb,

        Thank you for your email. On Wednesday, August 9, 2006, at 5:06:12
        PM, you wrote:

        > Courses may not be for you - after all you give 'em, and I guess
        > you've given so many maybe it feels like they don't have the impact
        > you once hoped they would? Though I'd wager that they are helpful for
        > those of us in need of some guidance. I did a CSM last October and it
        > was the beginning of really exciting journey for me, so far it's led
        > me here (amongst other places)...

        Well, my point really is that I think courses don't make anyone
        Agile. All they do -- and this certainly has value -- is offer ideas
        which people might try. As you say ... the course is the beginning
        of a journey. But it's the journey that matters.

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future. -- Niels Bohr
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