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Recommended number of participants in CSM course

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  • Gilad Bornstein
    Hi There, My company would like to certify several Scrum Masters. We are contemplateing whether to bring the training in-house or to send the people outside.
    Message 1 of 10 , Jun 27, 2006
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      Hi There,

      My company would like to certify several Scrum Masters.
      We are contemplateing whether to bring the training in-house or to send the people outside.

      I'm sure there's no black & white answer, but still - what is the recommended size (number of participants) in a CSM course?

      Thanks,

      -- Gilad
    • Alex Pukinskis
      Hi, Gilad: When we do a CSM course in-house for clients, we require a minimum of 10 and a maximum of 25 people. For fewer than 10 people you don¹t tend to
      Message 2 of 10 , Jun 27, 2006
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        Re: [scrumdevelopment] Recommended number of participants in CSM course Hi, Gilad:

        When we do a CSM course in-house for clients, we require a minimum of 10 and a maximum of 25 people.  For fewer than 10 people you don’t tend to get enough diversity of opinions and the discussions aren’t as good.  It’s difficult to do an effective training course over 2 days for more than 25 people; it seems like there’s a natural limit for interactive classes to about 25 participants.

        If you’re only certifying a few people, you should seriously consider sending them to a public course.  It’s really valuable to see how other companies are applying Scrum, see the issues they’ve come up with, and to understand that you’re not alone with the challenges you’re facing.  Also, there’s a lot to be said for having 2 days away from your company to think about process; physically leaving the building seems to unlock the mind for more creative thinking.

        -Alex

        --
        Alex Pukinskis - Agile Coach
        Rally Software Development - http://rallydev.com/

        On 06 27 2006 1:08 PM, "Gilad Bornstein" <giligen@...> wrote:


         
         

        Hi There,

        My company would like to certify several Scrum Masters.
        We are contemplateing whether to bring the training in-house or to send the people outside.

        I'm sure there's no black & white answer, but still - what is the recommended size (number of participants) in a CSM course?

        Thanks,

        -- Gilad
         
            



      • Mishkin Berteig
        I agree with Alex s assessment and I would like to add one more thing: the CSM course is not really designed for all team members to attend. It is (typically)
        Message 3 of 10 , Jun 27, 2006
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          I agree with Alex's assessment and I would like to add one more thing: the CSM course is not really designed for all team members to attend.  It is (typically) targetted to PMs, team leads, management and product managers.  That said, if someone is interested, they can certainly get value out of the course.  It's just that it's usually overkill to send everyone on a team to a CSM course.  There are plenty of providers of training that do team-oriented workshops or classes that are more effective.

          Alex Pukinskis <Alex.Pukinskis@...> wrote:
          Hi, Gilad:

          When we do a CSM course in-house for clients, we require a minimum of 10 and a maximum of 25 people.  For fewer than 10 people you don’t tend to get enough diversity of opinions and the discussions aren’t as good.  It’s difficult to do an effective training course over 2 days for more than 25 people; it seems like there’s a natural limit for interactive classes to about 25 participants.

          If you’re only certifying a few people, you should seriously consider sending them to a public course.  It’s really valuable to see how other companies are applying Scrum, see the issues they’ve come up with, and to understand that you’re not alone with the challenges you’re facing.  Also, there’s a lot to be said for having 2 days away from your company to think about process; physically leaving the building seems to unlock the mind for more creative thinking.

          -Alex

          --
          Alex Pukinskis - Agile Coach
          Rally Software Development - http://rallydev.com/

          On 06 27 2006 1:08 PM, "Gilad Bornstein" <giligen@...> wrote:


           
           

          Hi There,

          My company would like to certify several Scrum Masters.
          We are contemplateing whether to bring the training in-house or to send the people outside.

          I'm sure there's no black & white answer, but still - what is the recommended size (number of participants) in a CSM course?

          Thanks,

          -- Gilad
           
              






          Mishkin Berteig
          mishkin@...
          http://www.agileadvice.com/
          "Truthfulness is the foundation of all human virtues" - Baha'u'llah


          How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.

        • Mike Cohn
          The statement that the course is targeted to PMs, team leads, management and product mangers is, I suspect, very specific to each instructor. My version of
          Message 4 of 10 , Jun 27, 2006
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            The statement that the course is targeted to "PMs, team leads, management and product mangers" is, I suspect, very specific to each instructor. My version of the Certified ScrumMaster course is very much targeted at the entire team. Most managers and team leads would have a difficult time helping their teams adopt Scrum if the team members themselves had not been trained in Scrum and the many subtle differences in how to think about problems that come about from adopting it.
            Regards,
            Mike Cohn
            Author:
              Agile Estimating and Planning
              User Stories Applied
            www.mountaingoatsoftware.com


            On Jun 27, 2006, at 4:08 PM, Mishkin Berteig wrote:

            I agree with Alex's assessment and I would like to add one more thing: the CSM course is not really designed for all team members to attend.  It is (typically) targetted to PMs, team leads, management and product managers.  That said, if someone is interested, they can certainly get value out of the course.  It's just that it's usually overkill to send everyone on a team to a CSM course.  There are plenty of providers of training that do team-oriented workshops or classes that are more effective.

            Alex Pukinskis <Alex.Pukinskis@...> wrote:

            Hi, Gilad:

            When we do a CSM course in-house for clients, we require a minimum of 10 and a maximum of 25 people.  For fewer than 10 people you don’t tend to get enough diversity of! opinions and the discussions aren’t as good.  It’s difficult to do an effective training course over 2 days for more than 25 people; it seems like there’s a natural limit for interactive classes to about 25 participants.

            If you’re only certifying a few people, you should seriously consider sending them to a public course.  It’s really valuable to see how other companies are applying Scrum, see the issues they’ve come up with, and to understand that you’re not alone with the challenges you’re facing.  Also, there’s a lot to be said for having 2 days away from your company to think about process; physically leaving the building seems to unlock the mind for more creative thinking.

            -Alex

            --
            Alex Pukinskis - Agile Coach
            Rally Software Development - http://rallydev.com/

            On 06 27 2006 1:08 PM, "Gilad Bornstein" <giligen@...> wrote:


             
             

            Hi There,

            My company would like to certify several Scrum Masters.
            We are contemplateing whether to bring the training in-house or to send the people outside.

            I'm sure there's no black & white answer, but still - what is the recommended size (number of participants) in a CSM course?

            Thanks,

            -- Gilad
             
                






            Mishkin Berteig
            mishkin@...
            http://www.agileadvice.com/
            "Truthfulness is the foundation of all human virtues" - Baha'u'llah


            How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger’s low PC-to-Phone call rates.


          • Lowell Lindstrom
            Hi Gilad- In my experience the sweet spot is 8-16. I have taught as few as 4, which works fine, but more voices are prefered. I try to cap my courses at 24.
            Message 5 of 10 , Jun 28, 2006
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              Hi Gilad-

              In my experience the sweet spot is 8-16. I have taught as few as 4, which
              works fine, but more voices are prefered. I try to cap my courses at 24.

              Public courses are excellent ways to hear from other teams at other
              companies. I find teams at smaller companies value the information from
              other teams immensely. Teams from larger companies often feel more
              constrained and sometimes find the outside stories less relevant. The
              decision to bring the course in house versus sending to a public course will
              come down to number of students, travel costs, and scheduling
              desire/aversion for outside sharing of project information during the
              course.

              As Mike pointed out, there is some variance in the course based on the
              instructor. I tailor mine to the students, bringing in team focused
              material if the attendees comprise the whole team (usually on-site) and
              focusing on CSM skills and topics for a largely PM, lead audience (usually
              public).

              Feel free to call if a chat would help.

              Regards,

              Lowell

              _________________________________________

              Lowell Lindstrom
              oobeya group
              email: lowell@...
              phone: 630.335.0889 fax: 630.547.4202
              MSN/Yahoo/Skype: lowelllindstrom
              AIM: lowell8281
              www.oobeyagroup.com blog.oobeyagroup.com
              _________________________________________






              >
              > 1a. Recommended number of participants in CSM course
              > Posted by: "Gilad Bornstein" giligen@... bgilad
              > Date: Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:31 pm (PDT)
              >
              > Hi There,
              >
              > My company would like to certify several Scrum Masters.
              > We are contemplateing whether to bring the training in-house
              > or to send the people outside.
              >
              > I'm sure there's no black & white answer, but still - what is
              > the recommended size (number of participants) in a CSM course?
              >
              > Thanks,
              >
              > -- Gilad
              >
            • Michael Vizdos
              Hi, I agree with Mike and Lowell (and others who have responded. Usually 16 is the sweet spot for me on any training. Please drop me a line or check out
              Message 6 of 10 , Jun 28, 2006
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                Hi,
                 
                I agree with Mike and Lowell (and others who have responded.
                 
                Usually 16 is the sweet spot for me on any training.  Please drop me a line or check out www.michaelvizdos.com/scrum for more information about my upcoming public courses.  An entire list can be found at www.scrumalliance.org and almost all of the available certified trainers -- including myself -- conduct private in-house workshops.  We all teach the same concept but each has a different -- and unique -- way of presenting the information.  Find one that suits *your* environment :).
                 
                - mike vizdos
                On 6/28/06, Lowell Lindstrom <groups@...> wrote:

                Hi Gilad-

                In my experience the sweet spot is 8-16. I have taught as few as 4, which
                works fine, but more voices are prefered. I try to cap my courses at 24.

                Public courses are excellent ways to hear from other teams at other
                companies. I find teams at smaller companies value the information from
                other teams immensely. Teams from larger companies often feel more
                constrained and sometimes find the outside stories less relevant. The
                decision to bring the course in house versus sending to a public course will
                come down to number of students, travel costs, and scheduling
                desire/aversion for outside sharing of project information during the
                course.

                As Mike pointed out, there is some variance in the course based on the
                instructor. I tailor mine to the students, bringing in team focused
                material if the attendees comprise the whole team (usually on-site) and
                focusing on CSM skills and topics for a largely PM, lead audience (usually
                public).

                Feel free to call if a chat would help.

                Regards,

                Lowell

                _________________________________________

                Lowell Lindstrom
                oobeya group
                email: lowell@...
                phone: 630.335.0889 fax: 630.547.4202
                MSN/Yahoo/Skype: lowelllindstrom
                AIM: lowell8281
                www.oobeyagroup.com blog.oobeyagroup.com
                _________________________________________

                >
                > 1a. Recommended number of participants in CSM course
                > Posted by: "Gilad Bornstein" giligen@... bgilad
                > Date: Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:31 pm (PDT)


                >
                > Hi There,
                >
                > My company would like to certify several Scrum Masters.
                > We are contemplateing whether to bring the training in-house
                > or to send the people outside.
                >
                > I'm sure there's no black & white answer, but still - what is
                > the recommended size (number of participants) in a CSM course?
                >
                > Thanks,
                >
                > -- Gilad
                >


              • Heinrich Breedt
                Hello Michael, I m in South Africa, trying my best, and succeeding mostly i think, with the Scrum framework. (Of course, as a rugby fanatic, what other
                Message 7 of 10 , Jun 28, 2006
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                  Hello Michael,

                  I'm in South Africa, trying my best, and succeeding mostly i think, with
                  the Scrum framework. (Of course, as a rugby fanatic, what other framework
                  could i possibly consider :p ).

                  What is the best way for me to get scrum certified. Attending a course in
                  Europe or America will be just too expensive.

                  Thanks
                  Heinrich
                • Jens Østergaard
                  Heinrich, Actually Boris and me are comming to South Africa to do certified ScrumMaster Training. We had a Soth African participant in our recent Stockholm
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jun 29, 2006
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                    Heinrich,

                    Actually Boris and me are comming to South Africa to do certified
                    ScrumMaster Training. We had a Soth African participant in our
                    recent Stockholm class and he wants us to come to SA and will help
                    us promote the event.

                    I have set up 2 classes, one in Johannesbur and one in Cape Town.
                    You can see more on www.scrumalliance.org, go to the bottom and
                    click on view all classes. Or you can go directly to
                    www.scrumeducation.com and register.


                    As for the other question regarding the number of participants for
                    an internal class, I agree with Rally that it is usuable to go to a
                    public class and share your experience with other Scrum users. The
                    flip side is that an internal class gives you the possibility to
                    target more of the problems you have in your company.

                    As from experience of the number of participants in an internal
                    class, I suggest 12 - 20, divided into 4 teams with 3 - 5 in each
                    team. Seems to give the best discussions.

                    Cheers
                    Jens


                    --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Heinrich Breedt
                    <heinrich@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello Michael,
                    >
                    > I'm in South Africa, trying my best, and succeeding mostly i
                    think, with
                    > the Scrum framework. (Of course, as a rugby fanatic, what other
                    framework
                    > could i possibly consider :p ).
                    >
                    > What is the best way for me to get scrum certified. Attending a
                    course in
                    > Europe or America will be just too expensive.
                    >
                    > Thanks
                    > Heinrich
                    >
                  • Michael Vizdos
                    Heinrich, I see that Jens / Boris has replied to you. If the timing works out, awesome! Keep checking on www.scrumalliance.org for upcoming classes and/or
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jun 29, 2006
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                      Heinrich,
                       
                      I see that Jens / Boris has replied to you.  If the timing works out, awesome!  Keep checking on www.scrumalliance.org for upcoming classes and/or workshops as we, the available trainers, are constantly updating that site and travel around this very small world of ours.
                       
                      Thank you,
                       
                      - mike vizdos
                      On 6/29/06, Heinrich Breedt <heinrich@...> wrote:

                      Hello Michael,

                      I'm in South Africa, trying my best, and succeeding mostly i think, with
                      the Scrum framework. (Of course, as a rugby fanatic, what other framework
                      could i possibly consider :p ).

                      What is the best way for me to get scrum certified. Attending a course in
                      Europe or America will be just too expensive.

                      Thanks
                      Heinrich


                    • jay_conne
                      I like Mike s point. I m currently helping an A-level organization establish Scrum as cultural norm. The intent is to have all understand what we teach CSMs
                      Message 10 of 10 , Jul 3, 2006
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                        I like Mike's point. I'm currently helping an A-level organization
                        establish Scrum as cultural norm. The intent is to have all
                        understand what we teach CSMs about the WHY and the HOW of Scrum.
                        That will facilitate maximum understanding and collaboration.

                        Under the leadership of a strong, practical and visionary VP of Eng.
                        and another Eng. Mgr., they first selected Agile and then
                        specificlly Scrum as a framework. They have 2 teams (splitting to
                        3) doing their first approximations at Scrum with a lot of missing
                        details and therefore a lot of missing benefits.

                        I'm training everyone I can and will be coaching starting-up teams
                        shortly. So far, the buzz is very good! For starters, I'm doing 1-
                        hour lunch-time introductions every day I'm on site, that are open
                        to all, from execs to business folks, to all development team
                        members. We've also had some more focused sessions including:
                        - PM/SMs,
                        - PO's,
                        - Bus. and Eng. leads for a specific business
                        - An all Eng and Q/A session to address their integration vs 'over
                        the 'wall' practices. The focus was on them selecting next steps to
                        do this integration while attending to the valuing of all parties,
                        ala self-organizing.

                        One of the open questions is how to take the in-process teams and
                        get the training integrated into their ongoing commitments. Do we
                        do a training mini-sprint? - or just call it a training
                        interuption? Do we do some JIT components of the training to
                        address a dimension at a time?

                        It's NOT boring :-). The politics is driving open, transparent
                        communication and safe place for bad news to travel up including all
                        the team safety issues for continuous learning.

                        Jay

                        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Mike Cohn <mike@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > The statement that the course is targeted to "PMs, team leads,
                        > management and product mangers" is, I suspect, very specific to
                        each
                        > instructor. My version of the Certified ScrumMaster course is
                        very
                        > much targeted at the entire team. Most managers and team leads
                        would
                        > have a difficult time helping their teams adopt Scrum if the team
                        > members themselves had not been trained in Scrum and the many
                        subtle
                        > differences in how to think about problems that come about from
                        > adopting it.
                        > Regards,
                        > Mike Cohn
                        > Author:
                        > Agile Estimating and Planning
                        > User Stories Applied
                        > www.mountaingoatsoftware.com
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