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RE: [scrumdevelopment] Re: IEEE SWEBOK Is Looking for Reviewers--They Don't Even Mention XP, Agile, etc.

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  • David J. Anderson
    Thanks for remining me of the name Zortech . I was straining to come up with it and just couldn t find it. Lost in the chemical network excuse for a memory I
    Message 1 of 37 , Jun 4, 2003
      Thanks for remining me of the name "Zortech". I was
      straining to come up with it and just couldn't find
      it. Lost in the chemical network excuse for a memory I
      keep inside my head.

      I lived in an "Objective C" snobland populated with
      Smalltalk academics during those years. Hence, there
      was a tendency to look down on C++. At the time, I was
      a 68000 programmer and was busy inventing object
      oriented macros to get re-use and repeatability.

      --- Mike Cohn <mike@...> wrote:

      We were doing CFront back then. C++ didn't get fun
      until Zortech in 88/89.

      Yes, we did "test first" because our training
      environment was simulating a
      high-cost environment. We were limited to 3 compiles a
      day. We had to submit
      our jobs to a simulated unfriendly IT department and
      would get printouts
      back hours later with our compile errors.

      As you say, desk-checking was a big part of what we
      did prior to submitting.

      Fortunately, I only had to live in those dark-ages for
      3 weeks and then I
      went back to a PC and C/C++ and 400 compiles a day!


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    • Mike Beedle
      ... From: Fabian Ritzmann [mailto:usefri@gmx.net] ... Oh, I don t know -- we are still sort of on topic. ... We call tests by the user acceptance tests or
      Message 37 of 37 , Jun 6, 2003
        -----Original Message-----
        From: Fabian Ritzmann [mailto:usefri@...]
        > Need to bring this back on topic for this list. :-)

        Oh, I don't know -- we are still sort of on topic.

        > --- Fabian Ritzmann <usefri@...> wrote:
        > XP as I understand it uses unit tests and system
        > tests, unit tests for unit testing and system tests for
        > whatever the users want to test, including quality
        > aspects like performance, reliability, etc.

        We call tests by the user "acceptance tests" or ATs.

        I think this is a valid definition across XP and
        Scrum but I don't know if other agile methods call
        them the same way.

        self wrote:
        > The combination is very powerful:
        > * test as _specification_ from Test-First, and
        > * program as executable _specification_ from
        > functional programming
        > Both strategies drive development more into the
        > quantifiable _what_ space, much more than worthless
        > "exhaustive requirements documents" or "models".
        > Perhaps, this is what we need to concentrate in
        > software architecture -- in patterns that tell us
        > _what_ to program and that are executable,

        Fabian wrote:
        >The principle problem is that provable (and executable)
        >specifications don't help if the specification is wrong.
        >And we all know that specifications always change,
        >that's why we do Scrum or another Agile development
        >method. Of course that shouldn't keep anybody from
        >improving the way we are programming these days.

        True. In our view, the need for acceptance tests
        conducted through people-2-people interaction
        never goes away for the exact reasons you list
        (and regardless the programming styles used):

        - making sure that the specification is not wrong
        - making sure that we keep up with changes
        for the specification
        - making sure that the user experience is
        comfortable i.e. timely, convenient, beautiful, etc.

        It is just easier, faster and even more economical
        in some paradigms of programming to do the above
        3 things,

        - Mike
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