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Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Role of a manager

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  • mpkirby@frontiernet.net
    ... External obstacles are dealt with by either the manager (if it is a organizational obstical , like the test group doesn t respond to calls, etc). Or the
    Message 1 of 24 , Apr 5, 2006
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      On 5 Apr 2006 at 0:50, Robin Dymond wrote:

      > Thewre are different types of managers, and different tasks for
      > each, as I see it. I think Ed's response is excellent - I think it
      > focuses on the important issues.
      >
      > Some questions you might consider for your organization:
      >
      > 1. How are obstacles to team progress being dealt with? Are these
      > cleared quickly? How engaged is management in clearing obstacles?

      External obstacles are dealt with by either the manager (if it is a "organizational obstical", like
      the test group doesn't respond to calls, etc). Or the scrum master if it is a "customer"
      obstacle (in our organization systems engineering clarification, system design clarification,
      etc).

      The problem is that each scrum doesn't have a "manager". The scrum might be composed
      of 6 people all of which work for 3 or 4 different people. Which manager do they go to? Any
      one will probabaly work, but it's a bit unclear.

      > 2. How aligned are your projects with the business goals? Do you
      > know the ROI/NPV/IRR for the features under development or the
      > release plan?

      very much so. I do believe that prioritization, focus of delivery are very well established. We
      generally know what we have to do, and in what order.

      > 3. What systemic organizational problems impact or slow down the
      > Agile teams?

      Ughh. I can break this into two categories.
      - Internal -- These are things like internal organizational politics, turf wars (where there
      should be no turf), too many chiefs (we have one scrum team that has a bunch of
      pontificators, and no workers), too much "rugged individualism". Cowboy programming, etc.

      - External -- We have a very "waterfallish" style development. For example, Business goal
      development (4 weeks), content balancing -- balance effort into prioritized product backlog
      for the release (4 weeks), system high level design (10 weeks), release planning -- this
      should go away when more teams adopt scrum-style planning (4 weeks), implementation (12
      weeks), test (many many weeks), customer gets the software (priceless).

      > 4. How well are the agile teams performing? What are they lacking to
      > become high performance teams?

      It's amazing. Same group, I have 2 teams that I think are turning the corner, one that is
      treading water, and one that is dysfunctional (my too-many-chiefs team).

      > 5. What additional skills do the team members need to become better
      > at what they do?

      - people skills
      - listening skills
      - organizational skills

      Not really the technical skills. Most are proficient in TDD (or are learning very very quick),
      understand our architecture, understand design concepts (patterns, etc). If I had to pick a
      technical skill they could pick up it's the understanding and developing of customer
      acceptance tests.

      > 6. How engaged are the customers with the teams? Is there need for
      > customer training?

      On a scale of 1-10, our customers are engaged at about a 4 (where 10 is living with us). But
      they are definitely engaged. THey show up at customer demos, they provide feedback, they
      are available during the iteration for clarification. They are even writing stories now
      (originally, I had to write all the stories, they j ust wrote "requirements").

      > 7. How are agile teams being rewarded? Does the current HR
      > performance management encourage destructive competitive behavior
      > amoung team members?

      Excellent question. Something I need to figure out.

      > 8. How is the Agile project portfolio doing? How are trade HR offs
      > being made for scarce resources so that they will maximizes ROI?

      I'm not sure I understand this question.

      Mike


      ---
      mpkirby@...
    • mpkirby@frontiernet.net
      Ed, Thank you for the response. A very well thought out response. From it, I sort of visualize a framework for managers in agile development organizations.
      Message 2 of 24 , Apr 5, 2006
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        Ed,

        Thank you for the response. A very well thought out response.

        From it, I sort of visualize a "framework" for managers in agile development organizations.
        Let's see I can play it back.

        Personnel Development -- Responsible for the technical and organizational development of
        the individuals. The use of pair programming, 1:1s, and lots of face time allow personal and
        technical growth characteristics to be mentored without serving as the "directive manager".

        Organizational Barrier Buster -- Organizational dysfunction is removed by the manager. In
        my case I would need to make sure each of the unit managers have a consistent approach to
        this. It would be weird if you got different results depending on who you went to.

        HR Issue Management -- Internal group dysfunction removal is the role of the manager.

        On the subject of "lead architect / technical lead" I found that when I was in that position I
        used pair programming as a way to exert my influence. My key rule was that I never
        produced a technical work product that wasn't done "pair programmed." THis way there was
        always a 2nd technical lead. Not only did it work well to transfer the technical vision I had,
        but should I get hit by some organizational sucking sound, the activity didn't stall because I
        wasn't available.

        Mike



        ---
        mpkirby@...
      • mike.dwyer1@comcast.net
        Very interesting. Let me get this straight, the team members don t like being disciplined by the Scrum Master, so the Manager has to do it. What if the team
        Message 3 of 24 , Apr 6, 2006
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          Very interesting.  Let me get this straight, the team members don't like being disciplined by the Scrum Master, so the Manager has to do it.  What if the team member is an impediment?  Are the team members objecting to the disciplining the disciplined or the onlookers?  If you need two people to lead an effort is that Miri, Mira or Muda?
           
          I also want to understand how being a scrum master can 'un-empower' someone.  Was it because it made the manager's actions transparent and theirs was a loss of mgt mystic?
           
          I know of several hyperproductive environments where the team voted the scrum master off the island, stating that there was no need to have two managers to tell them conflict statements.  In many cases the manager was a doer/leader type and they added skill and experience the scrummaster did not.  In another case the team voted the scrummaster off the island, and now is wondering how much value the manager adds.
           
          Is this self organization?
           
          --
          Perseverance is not a long race; it is many short races one after another. ~Walter Elliott, The Spiritual Life


          The greatest oak was once a little nut who held its ground. ~Author Unknown
           
          -------------- Original message --------------
          From: "Wolfgang Schulze-Zachau" <wolfgang@...>

          These are all very good questions. I would like to add to them.

          I am (in your terms) a unit manager (at least as far as team size goes) and scrum master at the same time and there is conflict.

          As a scrum master I should empower my team, as a team manager/leader I sometimes have to discipline them. They are confused.

          What adds to the confusion is that in the past (BS = Before Scrum) I also used to be the lead designer/architect and now they have to figure things out on their own (which also sometimes frustrates the hell out of the product owner).

          What have other people done in situations like this ?

           

          Regards,

           

          Wolfgang


          From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mpkirby@...
          Sent: 05 April 2006 01:30
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Role of a manager

           

          So what's the role of a manager in a scrum environment.

          Let's say I have a number of scrum teams under me, and a series of unit managers.  The
          nature of our product is such that the teams are more flexible than HR reporting relationships
          provide for, so our scrums are actually collections of indvidiuals with different reporting
          relationships.

          >From a scheduling point of view this is a good thing.  The best people work ont he most
          important work, and they are cross-trained in a variety of areas of the architecture so they are
          never "waiting" for the "gui team" to "fix the gui" before they release.

          Of course, I can't have 40 people directly reporting to me (or can I?  My HR says I can't
          anyway).

          So are the unit managers scrum masters? (we found that to be anti-empowering.. It didn't go
          over very well).

          Are unit managers responsible for "individual growth" and "HR stuff".  In which case, what do
          they do with the remaining 38 hours per week?

          Should the unit managers be responsible for managing and mentoring, particularly to deal
          with dysfunctional behavior (yes, I think so), then how do they know of this behavior?  Are
          they on the scrum?  All the scrums?  Do they use the "plan" to "manage" the individual?

          There is definitely a dissonance between "traditional" HR reporting relationsihps and Scrum-
          style empowerment. 

          What are some of the things other people have done?

          Mike

          ---
          mpkirby@...


        • Tobias Mayer
          ... Why have people on this list suddenly taken to using these terms (and misspelling them)? Surely there are English terms that would be better understood.
          Message 4 of 24 , Apr 6, 2006
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            mike.dwyer1@... wrote:
            > If you need two people to lead an effort is that Miri, Mira or Muda?
             
            Why have people on this list suddenly taken to using these terms (and misspelling them)?  Surely there are English terms that would be better understood.  I have looked these terms up now about 4-5 times now, and I still can't remember which is which, and am still not sure that they are being used in a consistent way by those who do use them, anyway.  Keep it simple - for simpletons like me.  Please
            Tobias
             
             
          • Jeff Heinen
            I second that. I have no idea what those words mean, and surprisingly Google returns nothing either. ________________________________ From:
            Message 5 of 24 , Apr 6, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              I second that. I have no idea what those words mean, and surprisingly Google returns nothing either.


              From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tobias Mayer
              Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 4:03 PM
              To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Whati, Whata and Whyi

              mike.dwyer1@... wrote:
              > If you need two people to lead an effort is that Miri, Mira or Muda?
               
              Why have people on this list suddenly taken to using these terms (and misspelling them)?  Surely there are English terms that would be better understood.  I have looked these terms up now about 4-5 times now, and I still can't remember which is which, and am still not sure that they are being used in a consistent way by those who do use them, anyway.  Keep it simple - for simpletons like me.  Please
              Tobias
               
               
            • Victor Szalvay
              +1 The citing of obscure arcana in posts turns me off from reading this list. whenever the discussion goes down that path i tend to tune out for a while until
              Message 6 of 24 , Apr 6, 2006
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                +1
                The citing of obscure arcana in posts turns me off from reading this
                list. whenever the discussion goes down that path i tend to tune out
                for a while until it returns to something relevant and understandable.
                Yes, I know you're free to post whatever you want, but please don't.

                -- Victor

                --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Heinen" <jheinen@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > I second that. I have no idea what those words mean, and surprisingly
                > Google returns nothing either.
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                >
                > From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                > [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tobias Mayer
                > Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 4:03 PM
                > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Whati, Whata and Whyi
                >
                >
                >
                > mike.dwyer1@... wrote:
                > > If you need two people to lead an effort is that Miri, Mira or
                > Muda?
                >
                > Why have people on this list suddenly taken to using these terms
                > (and misspelling them)? Surely there are English terms that would be
                > better understood. I have looked these terms up now about 4-5 times
                > now, and I still can't remember which is which, and am still not sure
                > that they are being used in a consistent way by those who do use them,
                > anyway. Keep it simple - for simpletons like me. Please.
                > Tobias
                >
                >
                >
                >
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              • Wolfgang Schulze Zachau
                Hmm, also very interesting. How can the team vote the scrum-master off the island ? Is that in their power ? I was under the impression that (within the
                Message 7 of 24 , Apr 7, 2006
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                  Hmm, also very interesting. How can the team vote the scrum-master off the island ? Is that in their power ? I was under the impression that (within the concept of self-organization) they can vote off individual team members that don’t pull their weight or otherwise refuse to play ball. Can the team also vote the product owner off the island ? Can the scrum-master ?

                  My impression was so far that the scrum master is the one who ensures that everybody is playing ball. But what are his true powers?

                   

                  I didn’t say that anybody is objecting to any of the disciplining, I said that they are confused by the duality (trinity ?) of my role. Due to the fact that I take a lot of time doing the disciplining, i.e. I make sure that the disciplined one understands the reasons and negative impact his behaviour had, there is more often than not a positive outcome.

                   

                  And please explain to me who are Miri, Mira and Muda ?

                  Regards,

                   

                  Wolfgang


                  From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of mike.dwyer1@...
                  Sent: 06 April 2006 20:50
                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Role of a manager

                   

                  Very interesting.  Let me get this straight, the team members don't like being disciplined by the Scrum Master, so the Manager has to do it.  What if the team member is an impediment?  Are the team members objecting to the disciplining the disciplined or the onlookers?  If you need two people to lead an effort is that Miri, Mira or Muda?

                   

                  I also want to understand how being a scrum master can 'un-empower' someone.  Was it because it made the manager's actions transparent and theirs was a loss of mgt mystic?

                   

                  I know of several hyperproductive environments where the team voted the scrum master off the island, stating that there was no need to have two managers to tell them conflict statements.  In many cases the manager was a doer/leader type and they added skill and experience the scrummaster did not.  In another case the team voted the scrummaster off the island, and now is wondering how much value the manager adds.

                   

                  Is this self organization?

                   

                  --
                  Perseverance is not a long race; it is many short races one after another. ~Walter Elliott, The Spiritual Life


                  The greatest oak was once a little nut who held its ground. ~Author Unknown

                   

                  -------------- Original message --------------
                  From: "Wolfgang Schulze-Zachau" <wolfgang@...>

                  These are all very good questions. I would like to add to them.

                  I am (in your terms) a unit manager (at least as far as team size goes) and scrum master at the same time and there is conflict.

                  As a scrum master I should empower my team, as a team manager/leader I sometimes have to discipline them. They are confused.

                  What adds to the confusion is that in the past (BS = Before Scrum) I also used to be the lead designer/architect and now they have to figure things out on their own (which also sometimes frustrates the hell out of the product owner).

                  What have other people done in situations like this ?

                   

                  Regards,

                   

                  Wolfgang


                  From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of mpkirby@...
                  Sent: 05 April 2006 01:30
                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Role of a manager

                   

                  So what's the role of a manager in a scrum environment.

                  Let's say I have a number of scrum teams under me, and a series of unit managers.  The
                  nature of our product is such that the teams are more flexible than HR reporting relationships
                  provide for, so our scrums are actually collections of indvidiuals with different reporting
                  relationships.

                  >From a scheduling point of view this is a good thing.  The best people work ont he most
                  important work, and they are cross-trained in a variety of areas of the architecture so they are
                  never "waiting" for the "gui team" to "fix the gui" before they release.

                  Of course, I can't have 40 people directly reporting to me (or can I?  My HR says I can't
                  anyway).

                  So are the unit managers scrum masters? (we found that to be anti-empowering.. It didn't go
                  over very well).

                  Are unit managers responsible for "individual growth" and "HR stuff".  In which case, what do
                  they do with the remaining 38 hours per week?

                  Should the unit managers be responsible for managing and mentoring, particularly to deal
                  with dysfunctional behavior (yes, I think so), then how do they know of this behavior?  Are
                  they on the scrum?  All the scrums?  Do they use the "plan" to "manage" the individual?

                  There is definitely a dissonance between "traditional" HR reporting relationsihps and Scrum-
                  style empowerment. 

                  What are some of the things other people have done?

                  Mike

                  ---
                  mpkirby@...


                • Mike Dwyer
                  Once a team self organizes the role of the scrum master changes from sheep dog (to use a phrase Mike Cohn favors) to support system. One of the indicators is
                  Message 8 of 24 , Apr 7, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment

                    Once a team self organizes the role of the scrum master changes from sheep dog (to use a phrase Mike Cohn favors) to support system.  One of the indicators is the team moves ahead with out waiting for the scrum master and then the team decides they can do it better their way.

                     

                    Product owners vote them selves off by not making decisions.

                     

                    Why does disciplining take a long time?  Cut the PC patronization stuff.  Treat the person with some respect and transparency  Here is what is needed What do you need to be successful and these are the standards you work to.  If this doesn’t fit, let’s find you somelplace where you do.

                     

                    Michael F. Dwyer

                     

                    "Planning constantly peers into the future for indications as to where a solution may emerge."

                    "A Plan is a complex situation, adapting to an emerging solution." 

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wolfgang Schulze Zachau
                    Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 3:59 AM
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Role of a manager

                     

                    Hmm, also very interesting. How can the team vote the scrum-master off the island ? Is that in their power ? I was under the impression that (within the concept of self-organization) they can vote off individual team members that don’t pull their weight or otherwise refuse to play ball. Can the team also vote the product owner off the island ? Can the scrum-master ?

                    My impression was so far that the scrum master is the one who ensures that everybody is playing ball. But what are his true powers?

                     

                    I didn’t say that anybody is objecting to any of the disciplining, I said that they are confused by the duality (trinity ?) of my role. Due to the fact that I take a lot of time doing the disciplining, i.e. I make sure that the disciplined one understands the reasons and negative impact his behaviour had, there is more often than not a positive outcome.

                     

                    And please explain to me who are Miri, Mira and Muda ?

                    Regards,

                     

                    Wolfgang


                    From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mike.dwyer1@...
                    Sent: 06 April 2006 20:50
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Role of a manager

                     

                    Very interesting.  Let me get this straight, the team members don't like being disciplined by the Scrum Master, so the Manager has to do it.  What if the team member is an impediment?  Are the team members objecting to the disciplining the disciplined or the onlookers?  If you need two people to lead an effort is that Miri, Mira or Muda?

                     

                    I also want to understand how being a scrum master can 'un-empower' someone.  Was it because it made the manager's actions transparent and theirs was a loss of mgt mystic?

                     

                    I know of several hyperproductive environments where the team voted the scrum master off the island, stating that there was no need to have two managers to tell them conflict statements.  In many cases the manager was a doer/leader type and they added skill and experience the scrummaster did not.  In another case the team voted the scrummaster off the island, and now is wondering how much value the manager adds.

                     

                    Is this self organization?

                     

                    --
                    Perseverance is not a long race; it is many short races one after another. ~Walter Elliott, The Spiritual Life


                    The greatest oak was once a little nut who held its ground. ~Author Unknown

                     

                    -------------- Original message --------------
                    From: "Wolfgang Schulze-Zachau" <wolfgang@...>

                    These are all very good questions. I would like to add to them.

                    I am (in your terms) a unit manager (at least as far as team size goes) and scrum master at the same time and there is conflict.

                    As a scrum master I should empower my team, as a team manager/leader I sometimes have to discipline them. They are confused.

                    What adds to the confusion is that in the past (BS = Before Scrum) I also used to be the lead designer/architect and now they have to figure things out on their own (which also sometimes frustrates the hell out of the product owner).

                    What have other people done in situations like this ?

                     

                    Regards,

                     

                    Wolfgang


                    From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mpkirby@...
                    Sent: 05 April 2006 01:30
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Role of a manager

                     

                    So what's the role of a manager in a scrum environment.

                    Let's say I have a number of scrum teams under me, and a series of unit managers.  The
                    nature of our product is such that the teams are more flexible than HR reporting relationships
                    provide for, so our scrums are actually collections of indvidiuals with different reporting
                    relationships.

                    >From a scheduling point of view this is a good thing.  The best people work ont he most
                    important work, and they are cross-trained in a variety of areas of the architecture so they are
                    never "waiting" for the "gui team" to "fix the gui" before they release.

                    Of course, I can't have 40 people directly reporting to me (or can I?  My HR says I can't
                    anyway).

                    So are the unit managers scrum masters? (we found that to be anti-empowering.. It didn't go
                    over very well).

                    Are unit managers responsible for "individual growth" and "HR stuff".  In which case, what do
                    they do with the remaining 38 hours per week?

                    Should the unit managers be responsible for managing and mentoring, particularly to deal
                    with dysfunctional behavior (yes, I think so), then how do they know of this behavior?  Are
                    they on the scrum?  All the scrums?  Do they use the "plan" to "manage" the individual?

                    There is definitely a dissonance between "traditional" HR reporting relationsihps and Scrum-
                    style empowerment. 

                    What are some of the things other people have done?

                    Mike

                    ---
                    mpkirby@...



                  • Mike Dwyer
                    Wolfgang Please read Mary Poppendeick s work or give Joseph a ring. I believe they do a much more thorough job on the 3 M s. also try google Michael F.
                    Message 9 of 24 , Apr 7, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment

                      Wolfgang

                       

                      Please read Mary Poppendeick’s work or give Joseph a ring.  I believe they do a much more thorough job on the 3 ‘M’s.  also try google

                       

                      Michael F. Dwyer

                       

                      "Planning constantly peers into the future for indications as to where a solution may emerge."

                      "A Plan is a complex situation, adapting to an emerging solution." 

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Wolfgang Schulze Zachau
                      Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 3:59 AM
                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Role of a manager

                       

                      Hmm, also very interesting. How can the team vote the scrum-master off the island ? Is that in their power ? I was under the impression that (within the concept of self-organization) they can vote off individual team members that don’t pull their weight or otherwise refuse to play ball. Can the team also vote the product owner off the island ? Can the scrum-master ?

                      My impression was so far that the scrum master is the one who ensures that everybody is playing ball. But what are his true powers?

                       

                      I didn’t say that anybody is objecting to any of the disciplining, I said that they are confused by the duality (trinity ?) of my role. Due to the fact that I take a lot of time doing the disciplining, i.e. I make sure that the disciplined one understands the reasons and negative impact his behaviour had, there is more often than not a positive outcome.

                       

                      And please explain to me who are Miri, Mira and Muda ?

                      Regards,

                       

                      Wolfgang


                      From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mike.dwyer1@...
                      Sent: 06 April 2006 20:50
                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Role of a manager

                       

                      Very interesting.  Let me get this straight, the team members don't like being disciplined by the Scrum Master, so the Manager has to do it.  What if the team member is an impediment?  Are the team members objecting to the disciplining the disciplined or the onlookers?  If you need two people to lead an effort is that Miri, Mira or Muda?

                       

                      I also want to understand how being a scrum master can 'un-empower' someone.  Was it because it made the manager's actions transparent and theirs was a loss of mgt mystic?

                       

                      I know of several hyperproductive environments where the team voted the scrum master off the island, stating that there was no need to have two managers to tell them conflict statements.  In many cases the manager was a doer/leader type and they added skill and experience the scrummaster did not.  In another case the team voted the scrummaster off the island, and now is wondering how much value the manager adds.

                       

                      Is this self organization?

                       

                      --
                      Perseverance is not a long race; it is many short races one after another. ~Walter Elliott, The Spiritual Life


                      The greatest oak was once a little nut who held its ground. ~Author Unknown

                       

                      -------------- Original message --------------
                      From: "Wolfgang Schulze-Zachau" <wolfgang@...>

                      These are all very good questions. I would like to add to them.

                      I am (in your terms) a unit manager (at least as far as team size goes) and scrum master at the same time and there is conflict.

                      As a scrum master I should empower my team, as a team manager/leader I sometimes have to discipline them. They are confused.

                      What adds to the confusion is that in the past (BS = Before Scrum) I also used to be the lead designer/architect and now they have to figure things out on their own (which also sometimes frustrates the hell out of the product owner).

                      What have other people done in situations like this ?

                       

                      Regards,

                       

                      Wolfgang


                      From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mpkirby@...
                      Sent: 05 April 2006 01:30
                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Role of a manager

                       

                      So what's the role of a manager in a scrum environment.

                      Let's say I have a number of scrum teams under me, and a series of unit managers.  The
                      nature of our product is such that the teams are more flexible than HR reporting relationships
                      provide for, so our scrums are actually collections of indvidiuals with different reporting
                      relationships.

                      >From a scheduling point of view this is a good thing.  The best people work ont he most
                      important work, and they are cross-trained in a variety of areas of the architecture so they are
                      never "waiting" for the "gui team" to "fix the gui" before they release.

                      Of course, I can't have 40 people directly reporting to me (or can I?  My HR says I can't
                      anyway).

                      So are the unit managers scrum masters? (we found that to be anti-empowering.. It didn't go
                      over very well).

                      Are unit managers responsible for "individual growth" and "HR stuff".  In which case, what do
                      they do with the remaining 38 hours per week?

                      Should the unit managers be responsible for managing and mentoring, particularly to deal
                      with dysfunctional behavior (yes, I think so), then how do they know of this behavior?  Are
                      they on the scrum?  All the scrums?  Do they use the "plan" to "manage" the individual?

                      There is definitely a dissonance between "traditional" HR reporting relationsihps and Scrum-
                      style empowerment. 

                      What are some of the things other people have done?

                      Mike

                      ---
                      mpkirby@...



                    • Mike Dwyer
                      Who ever designed this keyboard should not have put the U and the I next to each other. In fact, there are too many vowels on the keyboard period for
                      Message 10 of 24 , Apr 7, 2006
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                        Who ever designed this keyboard should not have put the ‘U’ and the “I” next to each other.  In fact, there are too many vowels on the keyboard period for someone my age. how about the Systems Programmer’s solution to this -> ACRONYMS!      I vote for 3M  (or is that already taken)

                         

                        Thanks for the catch Tobias.

                         

                        Michael F. Dwyer

                         

                        "Planning constantly peers into the future for indications as to where a solution may emerge."

                        "A Plan is a complex situation, adapting to an emerging solution." 

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tobias Mayer
                        Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 7:03 PM
                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Whati, Whata and Whyi

                         

                        mike.dwyer1@... wrote:

                        > If you need two people to lead an effort is that Miri, Mira or Muda?

                         

                        Why have people on this list suddenly taken to using these terms (and misspelling them)?  Surely there are English terms that would be better understood.  I have looked these terms up now about 4-5 times now, and I still can't remember which is which, and am still not sure that they are being used in a consistent way by those who do use them, anyway.  Keep it simple - for simpletons like me.  Please

                        Tobias

                         

                         


                      • Brent Barton
                        I agree that these feel like TLA s (Three Letter Acronyms) with a little Feng Shui for that harmonius sense of balance. They can be isolationist in nature.
                        Message 11 of 24 , Apr 7, 2006
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                          I agree that these feel like TLA's (Three Letter Acronyms) with a little Feng Shui for that harmonius sense of balance.  They can be isolationist in nature.
                           


                          From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Heinen
                          Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 4:06 PM
                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Whati, Whata and Whyi

                          I second that. I have no idea what those words mean, and surprisingly Google returns nothing either.


                          From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tobias Mayer
                          Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 4:03 PM
                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Whati, Whata and Whyi

                          mike.dwyer1@... wrote:
                          > If you need two people to lead an effort is that Miri, Mira or Muda?
                           
                          Why have people on this list suddenly taken to using these terms (and misspelling them)?  Surely there are English terms that would be better understood.  I have looked these terms up now about 4-5 times now, and I still can't remember which is which, and am still not sure that they are being used in a consistent way by those who do use them, anyway.  Keep it simple - for simpletons like me.  Please
                          Tobias
                           
                           
                        • Jeff Heinen
                          Waste, strain, and inconsistency. Seems like a whole lot more communication would happen if we all agreed to use those words instead of having to do mental
                          Message 12 of 24 , Apr 7, 2006
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                            Waste, strain, and inconsistency.  Seems like a whole lot more communication would happen if we all agreed to use those words instead of having to do mental gymnastics to figure out what someone's talking about.


                            From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brent Barton
                            Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 7:37 AM
                            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Whati, Whata and Whyi

                            I agree that these feel like TLA's (Three Letter Acronyms) with a little Feng Shui for that harmonius sense of balance.  They can be isolationist in nature.
                             


                            From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Heinen
                            Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 4:06 PM
                            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Whati, Whata and Whyi

                            I second that. I have no idea what those words mean, and surprisingly Google returns nothing either.


                            From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tobias Mayer
                            Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 4:03 PM
                            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Whati, Whata and Whyi

                            mike.dwyer1@... wrote:
                            > If you need two people to lead an effort is that Miri, Mira or Muda?
                             
                            Why have people on this list suddenly taken to using these terms (and misspelling them)?  Surely there are English terms that would be better understood.  I have looked these terms up now about 4-5 times now, and I still can't remember which is which, and am still not sure that they are being used in a consistent way by those who do use them, anyway.  Keep it simple - for simpletons like me.  Please
                            Tobias
                             
                             
                          • news.gmane.org
                            ... They are 3 legendary Japanese geisha who created the scrum process
                            Message 13 of 24 , Apr 7, 2006
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                              > And please explain to me who are Miri, Mira and Muda ?

                              They are 3 legendary Japanese geisha who created the scrum process
                            • Ron Jeffries
                              ... I m down with this. Clarity about what I need and want as a manager is almost always all it takes to get what I need and want as a manager. When it
                              Message 14 of 24 , Apr 7, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                On Friday, April 7, 2006, at 7:03:33 AM, Mike Dwyer wrote:

                                > Why does disciplining take a long time? Cut the PC patronization stuff.
                                > Treat the person with some respect and transparency Here is what is needed
                                > What do you need to be successful and these are the standards you work to.
                                > If this doesn't fit, let's find you somelplace where you do.

                                I'm down with this. Clarity about what I need and want as a manager
                                is almost always all it takes to get what I need and want as a
                                manager. When it doesn't, the people in question tend to select out.

                                Ron Jeffries
                                www.XProgramming.com
                                Accept your conditions, but not your fate. -- Rod Walsh & Dan Carrison
                              • bmstallings
                                Well, the subject line for this message got me giggling Tobias! I appreciate the humor. With so many diverse backgrounds, this group is a community of so much
                                Message 15 of 24 , Apr 8, 2006
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                                  Well, the subject line for this message got me giggling Tobias! I
                                  appreciate the humor.

                                  With so many diverse backgrounds, this group is a community of so
                                  much knowledge and experience. I don't understand half of what many
                                  of you write about and so I end up researching something all the
                                  time. Now with this message, besides a good laugh, a lot of us have
                                  learned some Lean / Six Sigma / Quality terms that are common lingo
                                  to others.

                                  Come here...let me tell you a secret...I think Mike likes to be
                                  secretively cryptic...part of his mystique I'm guessing.

                                  Well, I gotta run, I'm doing some research on white box / black box
                                  testing.

                                  All my best,
                                  Bryan

                                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Heinen" <jheinen@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Waste, strain, and inconsistency. Seems like a whole lot more
                                  > communication would happen if we all agreed to use those words
                                  instead
                                  > of having to do mental gymnastics to figure out what someone's
                                  talking
                                  > about.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ________________________________
                                  >
                                  > From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                  > [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Brent Barton
                                  > Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 7:37 AM
                                  > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Whati, Whata and Whyi
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I agree that these feel like TLA's (Three Letter Acronyms)
                                  with
                                  > a little Feng Shui for that harmonius sense of balance. They can
                                  be
                                  > isolationist in nature.
                                  >
                                  > Here is link to definiitions.
                                  > http://www.isixsigma.com/dictionary/glossary.asp#M
                                  >
                                  > ________________________________
                                  >
                                  > From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                  > [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeff Heinen
                                  > Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 4:06 PM
                                  > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] Whati, Whata and Whyi
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I second that. I have no idea what those words mean, and
                                  > surprisingly Google returns nothing either.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ________________________________
                                  >
                                  > From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                  > [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tobias Mayer
                                  > Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 4:03 PM
                                  > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Whati, Whata and Whyi
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > mike.dwyer1@... wrote:
                                  > > If you need two people to lead an effort is that
                                  Miri,
                                  > Mira or Muda?
                                  >
                                  > Why have people on this list suddenly taken to using
                                  > these terms (and misspelling them)? Surely there are English
                                  terms that
                                  > would be better understood. I have looked these terms up now
                                  about 4-5
                                  > times now, and I still can't remember which is which, and am still
                                  not
                                  > sure that they are being used in a consistent way by those who do
                                  use
                                  > them, anyway. Keep it simple - for simpletons like me. Please.
                                  > Tobias
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                                  > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                  > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ________________________________
                                  >
                                  > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > * Visit your group "scrumdevelopment
                                  > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scrumdevelopment> " on the web.
                                  >
                                  > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > <mailto:scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?
                                  subject=Unsubscribe
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                  > Terms of Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/> .
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ________________________________
                                  >
                                • mpkirby@frontiernet.net
                                  ... So help me understand this. When I see terms like discipline, and Clarity of what I need , I m not thinking empowered work-group. I m thinking Manager
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Apr 8, 2006
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                                    On 7 Apr 2006 at 19:31, Ron Jeffries wrote:

                                    > I'm down with this. Clarity about what I need and want as a manager is
                                    > almost always all it takes to get what I need and want as a manager.
                                    > When it doesn't, the people in question tend to select out.

                                    So help me understand this. When I see terms like "discipline," and "Clarity of what I need",
                                    I'm not thinking empowered work-group.

                                    I'm thinking Manager telling employee what to do.

                                    In general, I thought that the customer tells the employee "what" to do, the scrum master isn't
                                    the manager. In other words, in traditional terms, they do not manage the people. They
                                    manage the burndown within the iteration, facilitate communication with the customer, etc.

                                    Of course that leaves the manager. Which I've generally associated with skills coaching and
                                    dealing with dysfunctional behavior (which I suppose is still in the discipline camp, but much
                                    reduced from traditional hierarchical organizations).

                                    But this leads to potentially confusiong scenarios.

                                    A scrum is made up of 4 people. Each person could conceivably have a different HR
                                    manager. In addition the scrum has a scrum master. Even if they only have a single HR
                                    manager, is the HR manager the scrum master? maybe not. Again, clarity of roles becomes
                                    important.

                                    If I think about this organization in terms of a design, isn't this a confusing design? Bad
                                    coupling springs to mind.

                                    Mike

                                    ---
                                    mpkirby@...
                                  • Ron Jeffries
                                    ... I don t think I said discipline , but it seems to me that any individual or team needs to behave in a disciplined fashion to accomplish much. As for what
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Apr 8, 2006
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                                      On Saturday, April 8, 2006, at 9:45:51 AM, mpkirby@... wrote:

                                      >> I'm down with this. Clarity about what I need and want as a manager is
                                      >> almost always all it takes to get what I need and want as a manager.
                                      >> When it doesn't, the people in question tend to select out.

                                      > So help me understand this. When I see terms like "discipline,"
                                      > and "Clarity of what I need", I'm not thinking empowered
                                      > work-group.

                                      I don't think I said "discipline", but it seems to me that any
                                      individual or team needs to behave in a disciplined fashion to
                                      accomplish much. As for "what I need", I mean that the manager's job
                                      is to be sure that teams know what they need to accomplish to be
                                      successful.

                                      If my job is to manage the people, which it may or may not be, I do
                                      so by telling them what has to be accomplished, not how to
                                      accomplish it.

                                      > I'm thinking Manager telling employee what to do.

                                      I'm thinking telling employee critical boundaries on what needs to
                                      be accomplished.

                                      > In general, I thought that the customer tells the employee "what"
                                      > to do, the scrum master isn't the manager. In other words, in
                                      > traditional terms, they do not manage the people. They manage the
                                      > burndown within the iteration, facilitate communication with the
                                      > customer, etc.

                                      I don't think the scrum master is the manager either. I think it's
                                      potentially dangerous if they are.

                                      > Of course that leaves the manager. Which I've generally associated
                                      > with skills coaching and dealing with dysfunctional behavior
                                      > (which I suppose is still in the discipline camp, but much reduced
                                      > from traditional hierarchical organizations).

                                      I was taught that management = { planning, organizing, staffing,
                                      directing, controlling }. Some of those things still need to be done
                                      in most organizations.

                                      Agile might lead someday to a corporate organization like that of
                                      Semco or GE Durham. But for most organizations, that's a long ways
                                      off.

                                      > But this leads to potentially confusiong scenarios.

                                      Life is complex, even that of an organization.

                                      > A scrum is made up of 4 people. Each person could conceivably have
                                      > a different HR manager. In addition the scrum has a scrum master.
                                      > Even if they only have a single HR manager, is the HR manager the
                                      > scrum master? maybe not. Again, clarity of roles becomes
                                      > important.

                                      Yes. That doesn't mean that all the roles don't exist. If the
                                      company has a more or less typical hierarchic management, that fact
                                      has to be acknowledged and dealt with.

                                      > If I think about this organization in terms of a design, isn't
                                      > this a confusing design? Bad coupling springs to mind.

                                      I don't think I'd have much trouble with it if I were called upon to
                                      manage agile teams. Nonetheless I would not generally recommend that
                                      each Agile team have a direct manager.

                                      Ron Jeffries
                                      www.XProgramming.com
                                      The man happy in his work is not the narrow specialist,
                                      nor the well-rounded man, but the man who is doing
                                      what he loves to do. You must fall in love with some activity.
                                      --Richard P. Feynman
                                    • Mike Dwyer
                                      Mike: If we put the prefix self in front of discipline does that help? Personally that is the only way I see a group organizing themselves, that is putting
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Apr 8, 2006
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                                        Mike:
                                        If we put the prefix self in front of discipline does that help? Personally
                                        that is the only way I see a group organizing themselves, that is putting
                                        self in charge of discipline.

                                        Michael F. Dwyer

                                        "Planning constantly peers into the future for indications as to where a
                                        solution may emerge."
                                        "A Plan is a complex situation, adapting to an emerging solution."

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                        [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Jeffries
                                        Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 12:54 PM
                                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Role of a manager

                                        On Saturday, April 8, 2006, at 9:45:51 AM, mpkirby@... wrote:

                                        >> I'm down with this. Clarity about what I need and want as a manager is
                                        >> almost always all it takes to get what I need and want as a manager.
                                        >> When it doesn't, the people in question tend to select out.

                                        > So help me understand this. When I see terms like "discipline,"
                                        > and "Clarity of what I need", I'm not thinking empowered
                                        > work-group.

                                        I don't think I said "discipline", but it seems to me that any
                                        individual or team needs to behave in a disciplined fashion to
                                        accomplish much. As for "what I need", I mean that the manager's job
                                        is to be sure that teams know what they need to accomplish to be
                                        successful.

                                        If my job is to manage the people, which it may or may not be, I do
                                        so by telling them what has to be accomplished, not how to
                                        accomplish it.

                                        > I'm thinking Manager telling employee what to do.

                                        I'm thinking telling employee critical boundaries on what needs to
                                        be accomplished.

                                        > In general, I thought that the customer tells the employee "what"
                                        > to do, the scrum master isn't the manager. In other words, in
                                        > traditional terms, they do not manage the people. They manage the
                                        > burndown within the iteration, facilitate communication with the
                                        > customer, etc.

                                        I don't think the scrum master is the manager either. I think it's
                                        potentially dangerous if they are.

                                        > Of course that leaves the manager. Which I've generally associated
                                        > with skills coaching and dealing with dysfunctional behavior
                                        > (which I suppose is still in the discipline camp, but much reduced
                                        > from traditional hierarchical organizations).

                                        I was taught that management = { planning, organizing, staffing,
                                        directing, controlling }. Some of those things still need to be done
                                        in most organizations.

                                        Agile might lead someday to a corporate organization like that of
                                        Semco or GE Durham. But for most organizations, that's a long ways
                                        off.

                                        > But this leads to potentially confusiong scenarios.

                                        Life is complex, even that of an organization.

                                        > A scrum is made up of 4 people. Each person could conceivably have
                                        > a different HR manager. In addition the scrum has a scrum master.
                                        > Even if they only have a single HR manager, is the HR manager the
                                        > scrum master? maybe not. Again, clarity of roles becomes
                                        > important.

                                        Yes. That doesn't mean that all the roles don't exist. If the
                                        company has a more or less typical hierarchic management, that fact
                                        has to be acknowledged and dealt with.

                                        > If I think about this organization in terms of a design, isn't
                                        > this a confusing design? Bad coupling springs to mind.

                                        I don't think I'd have much trouble with it if I were called upon to
                                        manage agile teams. Nonetheless I would not generally recommend that
                                        each Agile team have a direct manager.

                                        Ron Jeffries
                                        www.XProgramming.com
                                        The man happy in his work is not the narrow specialist,
                                        nor the well-rounded man, but the man who is doing
                                        what he loves to do. You must fall in love with some activity.
                                        --Richard P. Feynman



                                        To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                                        To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                        scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      • mpkirby@frontiernet.net
                                        ... Indeed. I suppose that s the difference between the traditional manager (otherwise known as the bad manager), and a more empowered manager , Although
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Apr 8, 2006
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                                          On 8 Apr 2006 at 12:54, Ron Jeffries wrote:

                                          > If my job is to manage the people, which it may or may not be, I do so
                                          > by telling them what has to be accomplished, not how to accomplish it.
                                          >
                                          > > I'm thinking Manager telling employee what to do.
                                          >
                                          > I'm thinking telling employee critical boundaries on what needs to be
                                          > accomplished.

                                          Indeed. I suppose that's the difference between the "traditional" manager (otherwise known
                                          as the bad manager), and a more "empowered manager", Although being an empowered
                                          individual is different than being a member of an empowered team.

                                          > Life is complex, even that of an organization.
                                          >
                                          > > A scrum is made up of 4 people. Each person could conceivably have a
                                          > > different HR manager. In addition the scrum has a scrum master. Even
                                          > > if they only have a single HR manager, is the HR manager the scrum
                                          > > master? maybe not. Again, clarity of roles becomes important.
                                          >
                                          > Yes. That doesn't mean that all the roles don't exist. If the
                                          > company has a more or less typical hierarchic management, that fact
                                          > has to be acknowledged and dealt with.
                                          >
                                          > > If I think about this organization in terms of a design, isn't
                                          > > this a confusing design? Bad coupling springs to mind.
                                          >
                                          > I don't think I'd have much trouble with it if I were called upon to
                                          > manage agile teams. Nonetheless I would not generally recommend that
                                          > each Agile team have a direct manager.

                                          I appreciate the insight. You always have good food for thought (even if I don't always agree,
                                          you at least make me think).

                                          So, if I can summarize -- Managing individuals in an agile team as part of a traditional
                                          organization may very well lead to complexity. But it is complexity that is manageable, and
                                          the benefits outweigh the costs.




                                          ---
                                          mpkirby@...
                                        • Ron Jeffries
                                          ... Good: that s my purpose. ... I agree that it s manageable, and I ve been talking about some ways to manage it. I am not suggesting any specific solution
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Apr 8, 2006
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                                            On Saturday, April 8, 2006, at 1:51:57 PM, mpkirby@... wrote:

                                            > I appreciate the insight. You always have good food for thought
                                            > (even if I don't always agree, you at least make me think).

                                            Good: that's my purpose.

                                            > So, if I can summarize -- Managing individuals in an agile team as
                                            > part of a traditional organization may very well lead to
                                            > complexity. But it is complexity that is manageable, and the
                                            > benefits outweigh the costs.

                                            I agree that it's manageable, and I've been talking about some ways
                                            to manage it. I am not suggesting any specific solution regarding
                                            whether there should be management, but more about how to do it if
                                            there is.

                                            Ron Jeffries
                                            www.XProgramming.com
                                            Speculation or experimentation - which is more likely to give the correct answer?
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