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RE: [scrumdevelopment] Love/Hate Agile Metrics - was Re: Jeff Sutherland's paper on Distributed Scru...

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  • Mike Dwyer
    As to the us them issue. Chickens IMO self identify by not taking responsibility and committing to deliver or not engaging. I have never - repeat never - seen
    Message 1 of 20 , Apr 1, 2006
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      As to the us them issue.

      Chickens IMO self identify by not taking responsibility and committing to
      deliver or not engaging. I have never - repeat never - seen anyone who
      committed to getting things DONE not considered a Pig and treated as such,
      even to the point of people calling in on their own dime. It is has been my
      experience to see vendors enter the ring of commitment.

      At the same time I have repeatedly seen people whose names were on the
      masthead of a program and a project always have someplace else to be.

      The Scrum we practice has taken the high road on this. We chose to consider
      people to be chickens or pigs based on their actions and priorities and it
      is working well.

      People who show up, prepared, and working in, people who don't show up are
      out. People who show up to be seen - are. But no words are listened to.

      We commit to respectin everyone's priorities including our own. You don't
      show up prepared, then we assume that you don't have a desire to contribute
      and we also assume that you are OK with what we are doing and that you have
      nothing of priority concerning you. We commit to the rest of the team not
      to generate muda by trying to guess what you need so we work on only those
      things that the people present think are important.

      It comes down to it being respectful to all of us all of the time.

      Michael F. Dwyer

      "Planning constantly peers into the future for indications as to where a
      solution may emerge."
      "A Plan is a complex situation, adapting to an emerging solution."

      -----Original Message-----
      From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Deb
      Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 4:01 PM
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Love/Hate Agile Metrics - was Re: Jeff
      Sutherland's paper on Distributed Scru...

      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, mike.dwyer1@... wrote:
      >
      > Deb;
      > metrics in Agile and Scrum are simple.
      > ...
      >
      > Anything else is feed for a chicken meeting.
      > --

      So, Mike:

      Are "chicken meetings" less important? If the organization is
      well-aligned, everyone's meetings should be about delivering value,
      right? Ok, those in the non-agile parts of the organization may have
      waaaay more waste... but it can't be constructive to look down our
      noses at them (yes, it is tempting :-).

      Let's simply assume they don't know any better yet. And, if we can
      clearly show them the progress we are making, perhaps we can model a
      different approach to them? This would be my hope in increasing
      transparency through careful use of *value* metrics outside the team.

      Eventual goal: break down the us/them wall and all get on with
      delivering value...

      deb
      (someone's got to dream)





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    • Alexey Krivitsky
      Although the article was interested (provoking) in some aspects, I also have some skepticism, particularly about the inter-team Scrum meeting duration. It
      Message 2 of 20 , Apr 2, 2006
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        Although the article was interested (provoking) in some aspects, I also have some skepticism, particularly about the inter-team Scrum meeting duration.  It seems to me it is impossible to make this meeting within even half an hour for 50 pigs, even if the answers are prepared in a written form, which is yet another point I am sceptical with.

        Another point is:
        Being a ScrumMaster for a project with 6 developers, at some stage we have had problems making Scrum meetings interested for all pigs since the guys were working on different subsystems and didn't care what was happening in the neighbor subsystem. Now it has been improved since we share the task pool (via the Sprint Backlog) which made the guys collaborate tightly sharing the tasks and hence became interested in other's progress.
        For the project described in the article, did all the dev teams share the same Sprint Backlog, if not, then I can't actually see why to have the inter-team Scrum meetings?
        But if indeed they shared the same Sprint Backlog, then I would wonder by means of what practices it was made possible for 50 people (distributed around the globe) to do that: what the Sprint planning meetings looked like? what the retrospective meetings looked like? simply, how the developers from the distributed teams collaborate to sign up for tasks from the Sprint backlog? etc.

        Thanks.

        //Alexey

        On 3/28/06, Steven Gordon <sgordonphd@...> wrote:
        Mike and Jeff,

        Thanks for posting this paper and allowing it to be posted, respectively.

        I remain skeptical of the conclusions for 3 reasons:
        • Lines of code are not a reliable performance measure,
        • One cannot infer this is a better way to scale agile from a single example (the developers might be extraordinary rather than the configuration)
        • I just do not see how the geographically disperse teams cause much of a boost over crossfunctional colocated teams, given that the developers in the two locations appear to overlap in time about an hour a day, not providing enough time to pair-program or do collaborative design to make much of a difference.  They just appear to be two distinct teams that share a backlog and synch up once a day.  The speed up might just be due to each team being able to code 14-16 hours a day rather than Scrum++.

        Steven Gordon

        On 3/27/06, Mike Cohn < mike@...> wrote:
        If you want to read the paper that started the firestorm of
        discussions about Type A, B, and C Scrum, Jeff Sutherland has agreed
        to make that paper available on the Scrum Alliance website. It is
        available at

        http://www.scrumalliance.org/index.php/scrum_alliance/for_everyone/
        resources/scrum_articles
        or
        http://tinyurl.com/p9otd

        (The latter expands to the same URL but has been made tiny.)

        Regards,
        Mike Cohn
        Author:
           Agile Estimating and Planning
           User Stories Applied
        www.mountaingoatsoftware.com




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      • Ken Schwaber
        Another way to make their work interesting is to require that it integrates and passes an integration test at least daily. For worldwide meetings, a really
        Message 3 of 20 , Apr 2, 2006
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          Another way to make their work interesting is to require that it integrates and passes an integration test at least daily. For worldwide meetings, a really good idea is to have at least one person from each location be at a central location for the review and planning,

          Ken

           


          From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Alexey Krivitsky
          Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 9:25 AM
          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Jeff Sutherland's paper on Distributed Scrum now on ScrumAlliance.org

           

          Although the article was interested (provoking) in some aspects, I also have some skepticism, particularly about the inter-team Scrum meeting duration.  It seems to me it is impossible to make this meeting within even half an hour for 50 pigs, even if the answers are prepared in a written form, which is yet another point I am sceptical with.

          Another point is:
          Being a ScrumMaster for a project with 6 developers, at some stage we have had problems making Scrum meetings interested for all pigs since the guys were working on different subsystems and didn't care what was happening in the neighbor subsystem. Now it has been improved since we share the task pool (via the Sprint Backlog) which made the guys collaborate tightly sharing the tasks and hence became interested in other's progress.
          For the project described in the article, did all the dev teams share the same Sprint Backlog, if not, then I can't actually see why to have the inter-team Scrum meetings?
          But if indeed they shared the same Sprint Backlog, then I would wonder by means of what practices it was made possible for 50 people (distributed around the globe) to do that: what the Sprint planning meetings looked like? what the retrospective meetings looked like? simply, how the developers from the distributed teams collaborate to sign up for tasks from the Sprint backlog? etc.

          Thanks.

          //Alexey

          On 3/28/06, Steven Gordon <sgordonphd@...> wrote:

          Mike and Jeff,

          Thanks for posting this paper and allowing it to be posted, respectively.

          I remain skeptical of the conclusions for 3 reasons:

          • Lines of code are not a reliable performance measure,
          • One cannot infer this is a better way to scale agile from a single example (the developers might be extraordinary rather than the configuration)
          • I just do not see how the geographically disperse teams cause much of a boost over crossfunctional colocated teams, given that the developers in the two locations appear to overlap in time about an hour a day, not providing enough time to pair-program or do collaborative design to make much of a difference.  They just appear to be two distinct teams that share a backlog and synch up once a day.  The speed up might just be due to each team being able to code 14-16 hours a day rather than Scrum++.


          Steven Gordon

          On 3/27/06, Mike Cohn < mike@...> wrote:

          If you want to read the paper that started the firestorm of
          discussions about Type A, B, and C Scrum, Jeff Sutherland has agreed
          to make that paper available on the Scrum Alliance website. It is
          available at

          http://www.scrumalliance.org/index.php/scrum_alliance/for_everyone/
          resources/scrum_articles
          or
          http://tinyurl.com/p9otd

          (The latter expands to the same URL but has been made tiny.)

          Regards,
          Mike Cohn
          Author:
             Agile Estimating and Planning
             User Stories Applied
          www.mountaingoatsoftware.com




          To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
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        • Øystein Mehus
          ... My understanding is that there were 5 teams, of which 3 had members from the St. Petersburg office and that each team had separate scrum meetings. ... The
          Message 4 of 20 , Apr 2, 2006
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            On 2006-04-02 15:25, Alexey Krivitsky wrote:
            > Although the article was interested (provoking) in some aspects, I also
            > have some skepticism, particularly about the inter-team Scrum meeting
            > duration. It seems to me it is impossible to make this meeting within
            > even half an hour for 50 pigs, even if the answers are prepared in a
            > written form, which is yet another point I am sceptical with.

            My understanding is that there were 5 teams, of which 3 had members from
            the St. Petersburg office and that each team had separate scrum meetings.

            > For the project described in the article, did all the dev teams share
            > the same Sprint Backlog, if not, then I can't actually see why to have
            > the inter-team Scrum meetings?

            The teams were split across functional areas of the library (catalogue,
            serials, circulation, search, reporting), so the backlog would most
            likely be split among teams, which doesn't preclude the PO's to keep a
            global large backlog, though. The article mentions that any team member
            on a team, independent of geographical location, could work on any of
            that team's tasks; maybe that's what confused you?
            --
            Øystein
          • Hubert Smits
            Alexey, You can do this kind of stand-up meeting, seen it (for 2 years) done it (for 9 months) got the t-shirt. No written preps, just everybody being there
            Message 5 of 20 , Apr 3, 2006
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              Alexey,

              You can do this kind of stand-up meeting, seen it (for 2 years) done it (for 9 months) got the t-shirt. No written preps, just everybody being there (on time) and an "uber scrummaster" who measured barely 5' but refused to let to the team go of-track (had nothing to do with the whip in her handbag of course.)

              --Hubert

              On 4/2/06, Alexey Krivitsky <alexeykrivitsky@...> wrote:
              Although the article was interested (provoking) in some aspects, I also have some skepticism, particularly about the inter-team Scrum meeting duration.  It seems to me it is impossible to make this meeting within even half an hour for 50 pigs, even if the answers are prepared in a written form, which is yet another point I am sceptical with.

              Another point is:
              Being a ScrumMaster for a project with 6 developers, at some stage we have had problems making Scrum meetings interested for all pigs since the guys were working on different subsystems and didn't care what was happening in the neighbor subsystem. Now it has been improved since we share the task pool (via the Sprint Backlog) which made the guys collaborate tightly sharing the tasks and hence became interested in other's progress.
              For the project described in the article, did all the dev teams share the same Sprint Backlog, if not, then I can't actually see why to have the inter-team Scrum meetings?
              But if indeed they shared the same Sprint Backlog, then I would wonder by means of what practices it was made possible for 50 people (distributed around the globe) to do that: what the Sprint planning meetings looked like? what the retrospective meetings looked like? simply, how the developers from the distributed teams collaborate to sign up for tasks from the Sprint backlog? etc.

              Thanks.

              //Alexey


              On 3/28/06, Steven Gordon <sgordonphd@... > wrote:
              Mike and Jeff,

              Thanks for posting this paper and allowing it to be posted, respectively.

              I remain skeptical of the conclusions for 3 reasons:
              • Lines of code are not a reliable performance measure,
              • One cannot infer this is a better way to scale agile from a single example (the developers might be extraordinary rather than the configuration)
              • I just do not see how the geographically disperse teams cause much of a boost over crossfunctional colocated teams, given that the developers in the two locations appear to overlap in time about an hour a day, not providing enough time to pair-program or do collaborative design to make much of a difference.  They just appear to be two distinct teams that share a backlog and synch up once a day.  The speed up might just be due to each team being able to code 14-16 hours a day rather than Scrum++.

              Steven Gordon

              On 3/27/06, Mike Cohn <mike@...> wrote:
              If you want to read the paper that started the firestorm of
              discussions about Type A, B, and C Scrum, Jeff Sutherland has agreed
              to make that paper available on the Scrum Alliance website. It is
              available at

              http://www.scrumalliance.org/index.php/scrum_alliance/for_everyone/
              resources/scrum_articles
              or
              http://tinyurl.com/p9otd

              (The latter expands to the same URL but has been made tiny.)

              Regards,
              Mike Cohn
              Author:
                 Agile Estimating and Planning
                 User Stories Applied
              www.mountaingoatsoftware.com




              To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
              To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
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              --

              All opinions in this message are my own, and are not necessarily shared by my employer.
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