Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum and XP...

Expand Messages
  • Mishkin Berteig
    I generally agree with what you say Ron, but many of the Scrum teams that I have coached do not have access to the incredible tools used for TDD, continuous
    Message 1 of 13 , Mar 1, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      I generally agree with what you say Ron, but many of the Scrum teams that I have coached do not have access to the incredible tools used for TDD, continuous integration, etc.  This is usually due to the technologies involved not being compatible, but sometimes can be related to corporate standards that dis-allow open-source software.  Even with these barriers, as a coach I try to find ways for the team to do these things.  Sometimes that means building our own testing harness from scratch, for example.
       
      I came to Scrum via agile via XP.  I hold TDD, pair programming and other XP practices very dear to my heart.  For new software development, Scrum might be a good place to start, but XP is what makes things really hum.  When a team is doing things that aren't new software development, XP starts to make less and less sense.  A recent database migration project I was coaching had no need for some of the engineering practices that XP sets up.  Likewise for a software system upgrade project.  Both of those were done essentially using Scrum with some minor modifications.  And unfortunately (for little me who likes XP) there was no reasonable way to introduce XP practices given the various constraints.
       
      Mishkin Berteig


      Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
      On Tuesday, February 28, 2006, at 7:07:31 PM, Jeff wrote:

      > Do scrum teams end up migrating to XP?

      Many do. Much of what I've been doing lately is introducing XP
      practices to Scrum teams.

      The thing is that for Scrum to work, the team has to come up somehow
      with technical practices that let them produce software that is
      known to work by the end of each Sprint. XP offers core practices
      that are a good start at doing this.

      Some time ago, if I'm not mistaken, Mike Beedle talked about a blend
      of XP and Scrum that he called XP@Scrum. More recently he has taken
      the position that practices much like the XP practices have always
      been a part of Scrum. That may be the case, though they aren't
      mentioned in the Scrum books, as far as I know.

      But primacy of invention or whose name is on the book isn't what's
      important. What's important is that a Scrum team needs to come up
      with some coherent and effective set of technical practices, in
      order to do their jobs effectively. The XP literature offers one
      convenient package of practices that are a good start.

      Regards,

      Ron Jeffries
      www.XProgramming.com
      One test is worth a thousand expert opinions.
      -- Bill Nye (The Science Guy)



      To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
      Yahoo! Groups Links

      <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scrumdevelopment/

      <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

      <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/





      Yahoo! Mail
      Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.

    • John Brothers
      Indeed. We use Scrum, and the following XP practices along with it: 1) User Stories 2) Test-Driven Development 3) Continuous Integration 4) Heavy access to
      Message 2 of 13 , Mar 1, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        Indeed.  We use Scrum, and the following XP practices along with it:
         
        1) User Stories
        2) Test-Driven Development
        3) Continuous Integration
        4) Heavy access to customer proxy
        5) Optimize later instead of earlier
        6) Refactor as necessary
         
        So far I've been quite pleased with the results.
         
        John


        From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Jeffries
        Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 10:19 PM
        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum and XP...

        On Tuesday, February 28, 2006, at 7:07:31 PM, Jeff wrote:

        > Do scrum teams end up migrating to XP?

        Many do. Much of what I've been doing lately is introducing XP
        practices to Scrum teams.

        The thing is that for Scrum to work, the team has to come up somehow
        with technical practices that let them produce software that is
        known to work by the end of each Sprint. XP offers core practices
        that are a good start at doing this.

        Some time ago, if I'm not mistaken, Mike Beedle talked about a blend
        of XP and Scrum that he called XP@Scrum. More recently he has taken
        the position that practices much like the XP practices have always
        been a part of Scrum. That may be the case, though they aren't
        mentioned in the Scrum books, as far as I know.

        But primacy of invention or whose name is on the book isn't what's
        important. What's important is that a Scrum team needs to come up
        with some coherent and effective set of technical practices, in
        order to do their jobs effectively. The XP literature offers one
        convenient package of practices that are a good start.

        Regards,

        Ron Jeffries
        www.XProgramming.com
        One test is worth a thousand expert opinions.
          -- Bill Nye (The Science Guy)

      • Culpepper Rick
        Hello, everyone! I am a new member of this forum and am just learning about Scrum and XP. I have recently joined this organization, taking over a project that
        Message 3 of 13 , Mar 1, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello, everyone!

          I am a new member of this forum and am just learning about Scrum and XP.
          I have recently joined this organization, taking over a project that was
          badly off-track.

          I am interested in using both Scrum and XP to revamp our development
          process for a mission-critical internal application. I have one team
          member who has some experience with Scrum and XP who introduced me to
          Scrum. I was already somewhat familiar with XP, but had never used it on
          any projects.

          I need some help getting started and wonder what approaches others have
          used to bootstrap Scrum and/or XP in their organizations. I'm open to
          training or consulting or whatever other means people have used to
          successfully transition to Scrum/XP in other organizations.

          Any help and/or advice that anyone can offer is very welcome.

          Thanks!

          Rick Culpepper
          Rick.Culpepper@...
        • Ron Jeffries
          ... I would suggest ScrumMaster training for yourself and perhaps other key people in the organization, and would suggest that you bring in a competent coach
          Message 4 of 13 , Mar 1, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            On Wednesday, March 1, 2006, at 7:03:39 AM, Culpepper Rick wrote:

            > I need some help getting started and wonder what approaches others have
            > used to bootstrap Scrum and/or XP in their organizations. I'm open to
            > training or consulting or whatever other means people have used to
            > successfully transition to Scrum/XP in other organizations.

            I would suggest ScrumMaster training for yourself and perhaps other
            key people in the organization, and would suggest that you bring in
            a competent coach in Agile Software Development. This individual
            would introduce all the stakeholders to Agile, and would be able to
            assess your existing situation from an Agile viewpoint and suggest
            first and continuing steps toward improvement.

            Ron Jeffries
            www.XProgramming.com
            Comments lie. Code doesn't.
          • Stephen J. Bobick
            ... Scrum and XP best-practices are complementary, not mutually exclusive. I prefer to use Scrum and incorporate best practices like TDD, continuous
            Message 5 of 13 , Mar 1, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              On Tuesday, February 28, 2006, at 7:07:31 PM, Jeff wrote:
              >
              >> Do scrum teams end up migrating to XP?

              Scrum and XP best-practices are complementary, not mutually exclusive.

              I prefer to use Scrum and incorporate best practices like TDD, continuous integration, and pair programming. Scrum provides an excellent structure for planning, executing, and reviewing iterations. Without this structure, or an analogous replacement, XP best-practices in isolation becomes chaotic at worst, and lose focus of the bigger picture at best.

              -- Stephen
            • Clinton Keith
              Also keep in mind that many Scrum teams are not exclusively composed of programmers. Our Scrum teams average about 50/50. The programmers pair and do TDD,
              Message 6 of 13 , Mar 1, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Also keep in mind that many Scrum teams are not exclusively composed of
                programmers. Our Scrum teams average about 50/50. The programmers pair
                and do TDD, but planning and tasks breakdown follow Scrum practices.

                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                > [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeff
                > Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 7:08 PM
                > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum and XP...
                >
                >
                > Another scrum question...
                >
                > The more I "do scrum" the more I suspect XP is more appropriate for
                > applying
                > scrum-like methodology to developing software.
                >
                > After all, scrum (afaict) embodies a lot of XP's "project methodology"
                > aspects, though scrum does not address any coding/programming aspects.
                >
                > I'm starting to find that effective scrum requires programming models
                such
                > as TDD. XP already has this all sorted out.
                >
                > Do scrum teams end up migrating to XP?
                >
                > Jeff
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-
                > unsubscribe@...
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Schiel, James (MED US)
                Ditto...this is exactly the structure that we ve set up in my company. Jim Schiel________________________________From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                Message 7 of 13 , Mar 7, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  Ditto...this is exactly the structure that we've set up in my company.
                   
                  Jim Schiel


                  From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Stephen J. Bobick
                  Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 1:58 PM
                  To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Scrum and XP...

                  On Tuesday, February 28, 2006, at 7:07:31 PM, Jeff wrote:
                  >
                  >> Do scrum teams end up migrating to XP?

                  Scrum and XP best-practices are complementary, not mutually exclusive.

                  I prefer to use Scrum and incorporate best practices like TDD, continuous integration, and pair programming.  Scrum provides an excellent structure for planning, executing, and reviewing iterations.  Without this structure, or an analogous replacement, XP best-practices in isolation becomes chaotic at worst, and lose focus of the bigger picture at best.

                  -- Stephen

                  -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  This message and any included attachments are from Siemens Medical Solutions
                  USA, Inc. and are intended only for the addressee(s).
                  The information contained herein may include trade secrets or privileged or
                  otherwise confidential information. Unauthorized review, forwarding, printing,
                  copying, distributing, or using such information is strictly prohibited and may
                  be unlawful. If you received this message in error, or have reason to believe
                  you are not authorized to receive it, please promptly delete this message and
                  notify the sender by e-mail with a copy to Central.SecurityOffice@...

                  Thank you
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.