Re: Scrum Testing time management
- Sorry for the late response to this....
Shiego Shingo was the Industrial Engineer behind the Toyota
Production System. He worked hand-in-hand with Taiichi Ohno to
develop the details of the TPS. He has written many books, none of
which I could recommend since they are boring manufacturing stuff.
But in the one book of his that I studied when I was in
manufacturing, he says something that I think is very relevant to
Shiego Shingo said: Testing to find defects is waste. Testing to
prevent defects is essential. His whole idea was to mistake-proof
every step so that no mistake could move forward in the system, even
for a moment. To me, this is what test-first is all about.
I believe that if there are test-and-fix cycles at the end of
development, even at the end of a Sprint, then the testing is
occurring too late. If the purpose of testing is to find defects
instead of to prevent them, and that testing is waste.
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, Ron Jeffries
> On Thursday, February 23, 2006, at 1:36:31 AM, Jeff wrote:
> >> I can't speak for Scrum, but I think that having identified QA
> >> people on teams is a second- or third-class practice.
> > Um.. What does the above mean?
> It means that I, Ron Jeffries, think that while having people who
> are part of a QA organization, or who think of themselves as QA
> people (or even who think of themselves as testers) on a team is
> a bad thing, it is not the best thing.having
> > Is this coming from an XP perspective?
> It's coming from my perspective.
> You might now be wondering something that could politely be put as
> "Why?" So I put this article up on my web site:
> Designated QA People on the Team Ron Jeffries 02/23/2006
> Recently on the Scrum list, I characterized the practice of
> designated "QA" people on the team as a "second- or third-classand
> practice." Here's some expansion on that ...
> One of the most common problems I see Scrum teams have is the
> inability to be "done" at the end of the Sprint. We have just heard
> recently about having a whole 'nother Sprint to get things done.
> More commonly I just see teams who get most of their items "90
> percent" done, or who have a high defect rate.
> The "fix" for this problem starts with testing. All the backlog
> items need to be tested within the Sprint, if they are to be done
> within the Sprint. (As I write this, I realize that one would think
> that this would be obvious. Apparently it is not.)
> One common solution is to add "testers" or "QA" to a team, and it
> can improve things. However, it results in an inevitable testing
> crunch, usually at the end of the Sprint. Since testing is hard to
> estimate, the results are not ideal. Things improve, but it becomes
> common for the testers not to be done, and there is even the
> infamous "QA Sprint" that some teams use to "clean up" the work of
> the preceding Sprint.
> It turns out that what is going on is that testing is getting done
> mostly at the end of the development cycle of each backlog item,
> that it is being done primarily by the "testing people". Thisinherent
> results in a number of ill effects:
> * Developers don't test very effectively. (*)
> * A testing queue builds up, slowing things down.
> * Defect fixing becomes a large and unpredictable part of
> the team's work.
> * The burn chart is incorrect to some unknown degree, resulting
> in uncertainty about progress.
> What seems to work better is to have the Whole Team focused on on
> each story being fully tested by the end of the Sprint, rather than
> letting the developers feel that they're done and "waiting for QA".
> Teams with this focus wind up devising some very productive
> approaches. For example, they'll have their testing experts work
> early with the customers or product owners, to clarify up front how
> a backlog item will be tested. This builds greater understanding of
> what has to be done, which itself reduces defects.
> Then, teams with a team focus on stories being tested will tend to
> focus on each story until it is done, rather than the developers
> screaming through as much code as they can, while testers struggle
> to keep up, followed by developers fixing bugs late in the Sprint
> or, worse yet, in the next one.
> Finally, teams with this focus tend to develop much better
> automation techniques, as everyone is faced with the drudgery of
> manual testing, and everyone sees the value of repeating as many
> tests as possible, as often as possible.
> Therefore, while adding testing skills to a team is a very valuable
> thing, I find that adding those skills by providing individuals
> whose job is thought to be "testing" is not the strongest move. A
> stronger move is to bring the whole team to the realization that no
> feature, and no individual, is done until the testing is done.
> (*) Poor testing by developers is commonly thought to be an
> trait of developers, or to be a psychological effect due to theCarrison
> difficulty of effectively testing something one has created. The
> primary cause, I think, is simpler. If there are testers on the
> team, it is obviously the developers' job to give them things to
> test, and the testers' job to tell the developers if their code
> Ron Jeffries
> Accept your conditions, but not your fate. -- Rod Walsh & Dan
- Mary, this raises an odd question: aren't our Backlogs queues? But we
like our Backlogs. What is different about them?
--- In email@example.com, "Mary Poppendieck" <mary@...>
> Putting aside the theory of constraints, queuing theory says that things
> flow faster if and only if you remove queues. In Lean, queues are
> much regarded as evil and every effort is made to diminish them.Okay, so
> you need a few short queues (TOC would put a queue only at aconstraint) -
> but they should be few and they should be short, and they should beaccepted
> grudgingly as an impediment to flow. It is almost never a better idea to
> queue work to be done later.
> Mary Poppendieck