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Re: [scrumdevelopment] updating tasks during scrum meetings?

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  • Hubert Smits
    Hi Jeff, I don t understand this, probably due to a mix up of words. You say use the sprint log as a focal point for the scrum I guess you mean the stand-up
    Message 1 of 27 , Feb 8, 2006
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      Hi Jeff,

      I don't understand this, probably due to a mix up of words. You say 'use the sprint log as a focal point for the scrum' I guess you mean the stand-up meeting. Anyway, I can't support this practice: you make the standup into a status meeting, which is not the goal. A standup is to exchange information between the teammembers. In my views you don't create enough teamspirit if you focus on the progress.

      My view on Rob's question: all options are good, I've seen them all work: before, during and separate from the stand-up meeting. Find out what works for the team.

      --Hubert

      On 2/8/06, Jeff Heinen <jheinen@...> wrote:
      What we typically do is make sure folks have updated the sprint tasks prior to the meeting, and then use the sprint backlog as a focal point for the scrum. We project the sprint detail chart (we use Scrumworks) on the wall and it helps maintain focus on the goals of the sprint (and also helps to highlight when people might be working on things that aren't contributing directly to the goals).
       
      -Jeff


      From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Molchon, Robert
      Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 11:20 AM
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] updating tasks during scrum meetings?

      Hello all,

       

      I just want some clarification. Is it considered good or bad practice for the team members to report back progress on task items during the scrum meeting?  For instance, "I want to change the time remaining for 'designing the database' from 8 hrs to 4hrs." Technically this is not one of the 3 questions.

       

      I was wondering how people deal with adjusting the sprint log daily. Should team members just tell the ScrumMaster? Should they update the spring log themselves?

       

      Thanks

      Rob

       

      Rob Molchon
      Senior Software Engineer
      Unicast
      The Advertising Group of
      Viewpoint Corporation (Nasdaq: VWPT)


      W: 212.201.0856
      M: 917.214.0551

      rmolchon@...

      498 7th Avenue
      New York, New York 10018

       



      To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
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    • Deb
      Hubert, this is interesting. I ve seen both - where team members interact with each other, and where team members essentially interact with the taskboard (the
      Message 2 of 27 , Feb 8, 2006
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        Hubert, this is interesting.

        I've seen both - where team members interact with each other, and
        where team members essentially interact with the taskboard (the
        equivalent of the "sprint backlog" below?) These two modes have
        totally different feel...

        Could you say more about your experience with this? What is the goal
        of the Scrum meeting and why does one format achieve it better?

        Thanks
        deb


        --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Hubert Smits
        <hubert.smits@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Jeff,
        >
        > I don't understand this, probably due to a mix up of words. You say
        'use the
        > sprint log as a focal point for the scrum' I guess you mean the stand-up
        > meeting. Anyway, I can't support this practice: you make the standup
        into a
        > status meeting, which is not the goal. A standup is to exchange
        information
        > between the teammembers. In my views you don't create enough
        teamspirit if
        > you focus on the progress.
        >
        > My view on Rob's question: all options are good, I've seen them all
        work:
        > before, during and separate from the stand-up meeting. Find out what
        works
        > for the team.
        >
        > --Hubert
        >
        > On 2/8/06, Jeff Heinen <jheinen@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > What we typically do is make sure folks have updated the sprint tasks
        > > prior to the meeting, and then use the sprint backlog as a focal
        point for
        > > the scrum. We project the sprint detail chart (we use Scrumworks)
        on the
        > > wall and it helps maintain focus on the goals of the sprint (and
        also helps
        > > to highlight when people might be working on things that aren't
        contributing
        > > directly to the goals).
        > >
        > > -Jeff
        > >
        > > ------------------------------
        > > *From:* scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
        > > scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Molchon, Robert
        > > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 08, 2006 11:20 AM
        > > *To:* scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
        > > *Subject:* [scrumdevelopment] updating tasks during scrum meetings?
        > >
        > > Hello all,
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > I just want some clarification. Is it considered good or bad
        practice for
        > > the team members to report back progress on task items during the
        scrum
        > > meeting? For instance, "I want to change the time remaining for
        'designing
        > > the database' from 8 hrs to 4hrs." Technically this is not one of
        the 3
        > > questions.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > I was wondering how people deal with adjusting the sprint log daily.
        > > Should team members just tell the ScrumMaster? Should they update
        the spring
        > > log themselves?
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Thanks
        > >
        > > Rob
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > *Rob Molchon**
        > > *Senior Software Engineer
        > > *[image: Unicast]
        > > **The Advertising Group of
        > > Viewpoint Corporation (Nasdaq: VWPT)**
        > >
        > > **W: 212.201.0856
        > > M: 917.214.0551**
        > > *rmolchon@...
        > >
        > > 498 7th Avenue
        > > New York, New York 10018
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
        > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
        > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
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      • Deb
        PS: regardless of how the standup is run, it is typical to have team members update time remaining before the meeting so that everyone can see what the
        Message 3 of 27 , Feb 8, 2006
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          PS: regardless of how the standup is run, it is typical to have team
          members update "time remaining" before the meeting so that everyone
          can see what the remaining workload looks like.

          --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Deb" <deborah@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hubert, this is interesting.
          >
          > I've seen both - where team members interact with each other, and
          > where team members essentially interact with the taskboard (the
          > equivalent of the "sprint backlog" below?) These two modes have
          > totally different feel...
          >
          > Could you say more about your experience with this? What is the goal
          > of the Scrum meeting and why does one format achieve it better?
          >
          > Thanks
          > deb
          >
          >
          > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Hubert Smits
          > <hubert.smits@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi Jeff,
          > >
          > > I don't understand this, probably due to a mix up of words. You say
          > 'use the
          > > sprint log as a focal point for the scrum' I guess you mean the
          stand-up
          > > meeting. Anyway, I can't support this practice: you make the standup
          > into a
          > > status meeting, which is not the goal. A standup is to exchange
          > information
          > > between the teammembers. In my views you don't create enough
          > teamspirit if
          > > you focus on the progress.
          > >
          > > My view on Rob's question: all options are good, I've seen them all
          > work:
          > > before, during and separate from the stand-up meeting. Find out what
          > works
          > > for the team.
          > >
          > > --Hubert
          > >
          > > On 2/8/06, Jeff Heinen <jheinen@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > What we typically do is make sure folks have updated the sprint
          tasks
          > > > prior to the meeting, and then use the sprint backlog as a focal
          > point for
          > > > the scrum. We project the sprint detail chart (we use Scrumworks)
          > on the
          > > > wall and it helps maintain focus on the goals of the sprint (and
          > also helps
          > > > to highlight when people might be working on things that aren't
          > contributing
          > > > directly to the goals).
          > > >
          > > > -Jeff
          > > >
          > > > ------------------------------
          > > > *From:* scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
          > > > scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Molchon, Robert
          > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 08, 2006 11:20 AM
          > > > *To:* scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
          > > > *Subject:* [scrumdevelopment] updating tasks during scrum meetings?
          > > >
          > > > Hello all,
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > I just want some clarification. Is it considered good or bad
          > practice for
          > > > the team members to report back progress on task items during the
          > scrum
          > > > meeting? For instance, "I want to change the time remaining for
          > 'designing
          > > > the database' from 8 hrs to 4hrs." Technically this is not one of
          > the 3
          > > > questions.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > I was wondering how people deal with adjusting the sprint log daily.
          > > > Should team members just tell the ScrumMaster? Should they update
          > the spring
          > > > log themselves?
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Thanks
          > > >
          > > > Rob
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > *Rob Molchon**
          > > > *Senior Software Engineer
          > > > *[image: Unicast]
          > > > **The Advertising Group of
          > > > Viewpoint Corporation (Nasdaq: VWPT)**
          > > >
          > > > **W: 212.201.0856
          > > > M: 917.214.0551**
          > > > *rmolchon@
          > > >
          > > > 498 7th Avenue
          > > > New York, New York 10018
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@
          > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
          > > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > SPONSORED LINKS
          > > >
          >
          Scrum<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Scrum&w1=Scrum&c=1&s=11&.sig=KvDTKhw7ncC9XbB25jdApQ>
          > > > ------------------------------
          > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > - Visit your group
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          > > > on the web.
          > > >
          > > > - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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          > > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > ------------------------------
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • Mark Striebeck
          We used to do it with the update. When somebody talked about the task he/she is working on they would also say how much work is left and I (scrum) master noted
          Message 4 of 27 , Feb 8, 2006
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            We used to do it with the update. When somebody talked about the task he/she is working on they would also say how much work is left and I (scrum) master noted that on the index card. After the standup I updated the burndown.

            It never occured to us that we could/should discuss overall progress in the daily standup.

                MarkS

            On 2/8/06, Deb < deborah@...> wrote:
            PS: regardless of how the standup is run, it is typical to have team
            members update "time remaining" before the meeting so that everyone
            can see what the remaining workload looks like.

            --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Deb" <deborah@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hubert, this is interesting.
            >
            > I've seen both - where team members interact with each other, and
            > where team members essentially interact with the taskboard (the
            > equivalent of the "sprint backlog" below?) These two modes have
            > totally different feel...
            >
            > Could you say more about your experience with this? What is the goal
            > of the Scrum meeting and why does one format achieve it better?
            >
            > Thanks
            > deb
            >
            >
            > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Hubert Smits
            > <hubert.smits@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi Jeff,
            > >
            > > I don't understand this, probably due to a mix up of words. You say
            > 'use the
            > > sprint log as a focal point for the scrum' I guess you mean the
            stand-up
            > > meeting. Anyway, I can't support this practice: you make the standup
            > into a
            > > status meeting, which is not the goal. A standup is to exchange
            > information
            > > between the teammembers. In my views you don't create enough
            > teamspirit if
            > > you focus on the progress.
            > >
            > > My view on Rob's question: all options are good, I've seen them all
            > work:
            > > before, during and separate from the stand-up meeting. Find out what
            > works
            > > for the team.
            > >
            > > --Hubert
            > >
            > > On 2/8/06, Jeff Heinen <jheinen@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > What we typically do is make sure folks have updated the sprint
            tasks
            > > > prior to the meeting, and then use the sprint backlog as a focal
            > point for
            > > > the scrum. We project the sprint detail chart (we use Scrumworks)
            > on the
            > > > wall and it helps maintain focus on the goals of the sprint (and
            > also helps
            > > > to highlight when people might be working on things that aren't
            > contributing
            > > > directly to the goals).
            > > >
            > > > -Jeff
            > > >
            > > >  ------------------------------
            > > > *From:* scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
            > > > scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Molchon, Robert
            > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 08, 2006 11:20 AM
            > > > *To:* scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
            > > > *Subject:* [scrumdevelopment] updating tasks during scrum meetings?
            > > >
            > > >  Hello all,
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > I just want some clarification. Is it considered good or bad
            > practice for
            > > > the team members to report back progress on task items during the
            > scrum
            > > > meeting?  For instance, "I want to change the time remaining for
            > 'designing
            > > > the database' from 8 hrs to 4hrs." Technically this is not one of
            > the 3
            > > > questions.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > I was wondering how people deal with adjusting the sprint log daily.
            > > > Should team members just tell the ScrumMaster? Should they update
            > the spring
            > > > log themselves?
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Thanks
            > > >
            > > > Rob
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > *Rob Molchon**
            > > > *Senior Software Engineer
            > > > *[image: Unicast]
            > > > **The Advertising Group of
            > > > Viewpoint Corporation (Nasdaq: VWPT)**
            > > >
            > > > **W: 212.201.0856
            > > > M: 917.214.0551**
            > > > *rmolchon@
            > > >
            > > > 498 7th Avenue
            > > > New York, New York 10018
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >  To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@
            > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
            > > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >  SPONSORED LINKS
            > > > 
            >
            Scrum<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Scrum&w1=Scrum&c=1&s=11&.sig=KvDTKhw7ncC9XbB25jdApQ >
            > > >  ------------------------------
            > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >    -  Visit your group
            > "scrumdevelopment<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scrumdevelopment>"
            > > >    on the web.
            > > >
            > > >    -  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > >   
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            > > >    Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
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            > > >  ------------------------------
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >







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          • Hubert Smits
            Hey Deb, I agree with the updating of the backlog: do where it works best, and before a standup gives you the opportunity to add a dot on the burndown chart on
            Message 5 of 27 , Feb 8, 2006
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              Hey Deb,

              I agree with the updating of the backlog: do where it works best, and
              before a standup gives you the opportunity to add a dot on the
              burndown chart on the wall.

              Reason that I do not like status reporting around a projected image is
              that it gives the wrong idea, the wrong starting point. Answering the
              three questions give the teammembers information about how the others
              are doing and where they need help. You create an admosphere of
              working together, team responsibility. Even when teammembers are not
              reporting well or even when they are not telling the truth, this
              becomes obvious and gives the CSM info on where to work on team
              morale.

              Working with the status report is looking at the individual
              achievements, Johnny is behind and Mary is ahead of plan. The power of
              the 3 questions is gone. It is a subtle psychological difference. I do
              promote standing around the taskboard for the standup, it does trigger
              questions and reporting. But (to quote you) interact with each other,
              not with the taskboard - it's about the people.

              Hope this helps,

              Hubert


              On 2/8/06, Deb <deborah@...> wrote:
              > PS: regardless of how the standup is run, it is typical to have team
              > members update "time remaining" before the meeting so that everyone
              > can see what the remaining workload looks like.
              >
              > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Deb" <deborah@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hubert, this is interesting.
              > >
              > > I've seen both - where team members interact with each other, and
              > > where team members essentially interact with the taskboard (the
              > > equivalent of the "sprint backlog" below?) These two modes have
              > > totally different feel...
              > >
              > > Could you say more about your experience with this? What is the goal
              > > of the Scrum meeting and why does one format achieve it better?
              > >
              > > Thanks
              > > deb
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Hubert Smits
              > > <hubert.smits@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Hi Jeff,
              > > >
              > > > I don't understand this, probably due to a mix up of words. You say
              > > 'use the
              > > > sprint log as a focal point for the scrum' I guess you mean the
              > stand-up
              > > > meeting. Anyway, I can't support this practice: you make the standup
              > > into a
              > > > status meeting, which is not the goal. A standup is to exchange
              > > information
              > > > between the teammembers. In my views you don't create enough
              > > teamspirit if
              > > > you focus on the progress.
              > > >
              > > > My view on Rob's question: all options are good, I've seen them all
              > > work:
              > > > before, during and separate from the stand-up meeting. Find out what
              > > works
              > > > for the team.
              > > >
              > > > --Hubert
              > > >
              > > > On 2/8/06, Jeff Heinen <jheinen@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > What we typically do is make sure folks have updated the sprint
              > tasks
              > > > > prior to the meeting, and then use the sprint backlog as a focal
              > > point for
              > > > > the scrum. We project the sprint detail chart (we use Scrumworks)
              > > on the
              > > > > wall and it helps maintain focus on the goals of the sprint (and
              > > also helps
              > > > > to highlight when people might be working on things that aren't
              > > contributing
              > > > > directly to the goals).
              > > > >
              > > > > -Jeff
              > > > >
              > > > > ------------------------------
              > > > > *From:* scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
              > > > > scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Molchon, Robert
              > > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 08, 2006 11:20 AM
              > > > > *To:* scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
              > > > > *Subject:* [scrumdevelopment] updating tasks during scrum meetings?
              > > > >
              > > > > Hello all,
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > I just want some clarification. Is it considered good or bad
              > > practice for
              > > > > the team members to report back progress on task items during the
              > > scrum
              > > > > meeting? For instance, "I want to change the time remaining for
              > > 'designing
              > > > > the database' from 8 hrs to 4hrs." Technically this is not one of
              > > the 3
              > > > > questions.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > I was wondering how people deal with adjusting the sprint log daily.
              > > > > Should team members just tell the ScrumMaster? Should they update
              > > the spring
              > > > > log themselves?
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > Thanks
              > > > >
              > > > > Rob
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > *Rob Molchon**
              > > > > *Senior Software Engineer
              > > > > *[image: Unicast]
              > > > > **The Advertising Group of
              > > > > Viewpoint Corporation (Nasdaq: VWPT)**
              > > > >
              > > > > **W: 212.201.0856
              > > > > M: 917.214.0551**
              > > > > *rmolchon@
              > > > >
              > > > > 498 7th Avenue
              > > > > New York, New York 10018
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@
              > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
              > > > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > SPONSORED LINKS
              > > > >
              > >
              > Scrum<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Scrum&w1=Scrum&c=1&s=11&.sig=KvDTKhw7ncC9XbB25jdApQ>
              > > > > ------------------------------
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              > > > >
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              > > > >
              > > > > ------------------------------
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
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            • Jeff Heinen
              We definately focus on team communication. The task board is helpful because it gets people to think in terms of the tasks that need to be done to acheive the
              Message 6 of 27 , Feb 8, 2006
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                We definately focus on team communication. The task board is helpful because it gets people to think in terms of the tasks that need to be done to acheive the goals. We actually started doing it because people would be talking about what they had done since the previous scrum, and very often they were working on things that had nothing to do with the team's goals (e.g. "pet" projects, favors for other people, etc.) Using the board as a focus keeps people thinking about what they have to get done, and other team members will often ask "what did that have to do with our goals?" when someone was working on things that weren't on the task board. Alternatively they would recognize that the task really should be on the backlog and the team took the opportunity to make sure that task got added so the sprint burndown accurately reflected the real work remaining.
                 
                I agree that the scrum is not about reporting status to the scrum master or to management, but I do think it is very much about reporting status to the rest of the team. Otherwise the only question you'd care about is "what impediments do you have?" Telling the team what you've worked on and what you're going to work on is a way to communicate how you are working to advance the teams's progress toward the goals, and it gives the team an opportunity to determine if they are being as productive as they could be and provide feedback to the individual team member.
                 
                -Jeff


                From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hubert Smits
                Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 11:50 AM
                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] updating tasks during scrum meetings?

                Hi Jeff,

                I don't understand this, probably due to a mix up of words. You say 'use the sprint log as a focal point for the scrum' I guess you mean the stand-up meeting. Anyway, I can't support this practice: you make the standup into a status meeting, which is not the goal. A standup is to exchange information between the teammembers. In my views you don't create enough teamspirit if you focus on the progress.

                My view on Rob's question: all options are good, I've seen them all work: before, during and separate from the stand-up meeting. Find out what works for the team.

                --Hubert

                On 2/8/06, Jeff Heinen <jheinen@...> wrote:
                What we typically do is make sure folks have updated the sprint tasks prior to the meeting, and then use the sprint backlog as a focal point for the scrum. We project the sprint detail chart (we use Scrumworks) on the wall and it helps maintain focus on the goals of the sprint (and also helps to highlight when people might be working on things that aren't contributing directly to the goals).
                 
                -Jeff


                From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Molchon, Robert
                Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 11:20 AM
                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [scrumdevelopment] updating tasks during scrum meetings?

                Hello all,

                 

                I just want some clarification. Is it considered good or bad practice for the team members to report back progress on task items during the scrum meeting?  For instance, "I want to change the time remaining for 'designing the database' from 8 hrs to 4hrs." Technically this is not one of the 3 questions.

                 

                I was wondering how people deal with adjusting the sprint log daily. Should team members just tell the ScrumMaster? Should they update the spring log themselves?

                 

                Thanks

                Rob

                 

                Rob Molchon
                Senior Software Engineer
                Unicast
                The Advertising Group of
                Viewpoint Corporation (Nasdaq: VWPT)


                W: 212.201.0856
                M: 917.214.0551

                rmolchon@...

                498 7th Avenue
                New York, New York 10018

                 



                To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...




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              • Jeff Heinen
                I thnk we are in agreement. Our teams all face each other and talk to each other during the scrum. The task board is there for focus.
                Message 7 of 27 , Feb 8, 2006
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                  I thnk we are in agreement. Our teams all face each other and talk to
                  each other during the scrum. The task board is there for focus.

                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  > [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hubert Smits
                  > Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 1:18 PM
                  > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: updating tasks during
                  > scrum meetings?
                  >
                  > Hey Deb,
                  >
                  > I agree with the updating of the backlog: do where it works
                  > best, and before a standup gives you the opportunity to add a
                  > dot on the burndown chart on the wall.
                  >
                  > Reason that I do not like status reporting around a projected
                  > image is that it gives the wrong idea, the wrong starting
                  > point. Answering the three questions give the teammembers
                  > information about how the others are doing and where they
                  > need help. You create an admosphere of working together, team
                  > responsibility. Even when teammembers are not reporting well
                  > or even when they are not telling the truth, this becomes
                  > obvious and gives the CSM info on where to work on team morale.
                  >
                  > Working with the status report is looking at the individual
                  > achievements, Johnny is behind and Mary is ahead of plan. The
                  > power of the 3 questions is gone. It is a subtle
                  > psychological difference. I do promote standing around the
                  > taskboard for the standup, it does trigger questions and
                  > reporting. But (to quote you) interact with each other, not
                  > with the taskboard - it's about the people.
                  >
                  > Hope this helps,
                  >
                  > Hubert
                  >
                  >
                  > On 2/8/06, Deb <deborah@...> wrote:
                  > > PS: regardless of how the standup is run, it is typical to
                  > have team
                  > > members update "time remaining" before the meeting so that everyone
                  > > can see what the remaining workload looks like.
                  > >
                  > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Deb" <deborah@...> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Hubert, this is interesting.
                  > > >
                  > > > I've seen both - where team members interact with each other, and
                  > > > where team members essentially interact with the taskboard (the
                  > > > equivalent of the "sprint backlog" below?) These two modes have
                  > > > totally different feel...
                  > > >
                  > > > Could you say more about your experience with this? What
                  > is the goal
                  > > > of the Scrum meeting and why does one format achieve it better?
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks
                  > > > deb
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Hubert Smits
                  > > > <hubert.smits@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Hi Jeff,
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I don't understand this, probably due to a mix up of words. You
                  > > > > say
                  > > > 'use the
                  > > > > sprint log as a focal point for the scrum' I guess you mean the
                  > > stand-up
                  > > > > meeting. Anyway, I can't support this practice: you make the
                  > > > > standup
                  > > > into a
                  > > > > status meeting, which is not the goal. A standup is to exchange
                  > > > information
                  > > > > between the teammembers. In my views you don't create enough
                  > > > teamspirit if
                  > > > > you focus on the progress.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > My view on Rob's question: all options are good, I've seen them
                  > > > > all
                  > > > work:
                  > > > > before, during and separate from the stand-up meeting. Find out
                  > > > > what
                  > > > works
                  > > > > for the team.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --Hubert
                  > > > >
                  > > > > On 2/8/06, Jeff Heinen <jheinen@> wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > What we typically do is make sure folks have updated
                  > the sprint
                  > > tasks
                  > > > > > prior to the meeting, and then use the sprint backlog
                  > as a focal
                  > > > point for
                  > > > > > the scrum. We project the sprint detail chart (we use
                  > > > > > Scrumworks)
                  > > > on the
                  > > > > > wall and it helps maintain focus on the goals of the
                  > sprint (and
                  > > > also helps
                  > > > > > to highlight when people might be working on things
                  > that aren't
                  > > > contributing
                  > > > > > directly to the goals).
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > -Jeff
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > ------------------------------
                  > > > > > *From:* scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
                  > > > > > scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of
                  > *Molchon, Robert
                  > > > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 08, 2006 11:20 AM
                  > > > > > *To:* scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > > > *Subject:* [scrumdevelopment] updating tasks during
                  > scrum meetings?
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Hello all,
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I just want some clarification. Is it considered good or bad
                  > > > practice for
                  > > > > > the team members to report back progress on task items during
                  > > > > > the
                  > > > scrum
                  > > > > > meeting? For instance, "I want to change the time
                  > remaining for
                  > > > 'designing
                  > > > > > the database' from 8 hrs to 4hrs." Technically this
                  > is not one
                  > > > > > of
                  > > > the 3
                  > > > > > questions.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I was wondering how people deal with adjusting the
                  > sprint log daily.
                  > > > > > Should team members just tell the ScrumMaster? Should they
                  > > > > > update
                  > > > the spring
                  > > > > > log themselves?
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Thanks
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Rob
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > *Rob Molchon**
                  > > > > > *Senior Software Engineer
                  > > > > > *[image: Unicast]
                  > > > > > **The Advertising Group of
                  > > > > > Viewpoint Corporation (Nasdaq: VWPT)**
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > **W: 212.201.0856
                  > > > > > M: 917.214.0551**
                  > > > > > *rmolchon@
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > 498 7th Avenue
                  > > > > > New York, New York 10018
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@
                  > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  > > > > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS
                  > > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > Scrum<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Scrum&w1=Scrum&c=1&s=11&.sig
                  > > =KvDTKhw7ncC9XbB25jdApQ>
                  > > > > > ------------------------------
                  > > > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > - Visit your group
                  > > > "scrumdevelopment<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scrumdevelopment>"
                  > > > > > on the web.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                  > > ibe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                  > Yahoo! Terms of
                  > > > > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > ------------------------------
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
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                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
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                  > > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                  > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                  > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
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                  > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                  >
                • Hubert Smits
                  Let me challenge you. If the team achieves their commitments in the scenario that you paint (people doing pet projects). What is the problem? --Hubert
                  Message 8 of 27 , Feb 8, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Let me challenge you. If the team achieves their commitments in the scenario that you paint (people doing pet projects). What is the problem?

                    --Hubert

                    On 2/8/06, Jeff Heinen <jheinen@...> wrote:
                    We definately focus on team communication. The task board is helpful because it gets people to think in terms of the tasks that need to be done to acheive the goals. We actually started doing it because people would be talking about what they had done since the previous scrum, and very often they were working on things that had nothing to do with the team's goals (e.g. "pet" projects, favors for other people, etc.) Using the board as a focus keeps people thinking about what they have to get done, and other team members will often ask "what did that have to do with our goals?" when someone was working on things that weren't on the task board. Alternatively they would recognize that the task really should be on the backlog and the team took the opportunity to make sure that task got added so the sprint burndown accurately reflected the real work remaining.
                     
                    I agree that the scrum is not about reporting status to the scrum master or to management, but I do think it is very much about reporting status to the rest of the team. Otherwise the only question you'd care about is "what impediments do you have?" Telling the team what you've worked on and what you're going to work on is a way to communicate how you are working to advance the teams's progress toward the goals, and it gives the team an opportunity to determine if they are being as productive as they could be and provide feedback to the individual team member.
                     
                    -Jeff


                    From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hubert Smits
                    Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 11:50 AM
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] updating tasks during scrum meetings?

                    Hi Jeff,

                    I don't understand this, probably due to a mix up of words. You say 'use the sprint log as a focal point for the scrum' I guess you mean the stand-up meeting. Anyway, I can't support this practice: you make the standup into a status meeting, which is not the goal. A standup is to exchange information between the teammembers. In my views you don't create enough teamspirit if you focus on the progress.

                    My view on Rob's question: all options are good, I've seen them all work: before, during and separate from the stand-up meeting. Find out what works for the team.

                    --Hubert

                    On 2/8/06, Jeff Heinen <jheinen@...> wrote:
                    What we typically do is make sure folks have updated the sprint tasks prior to the meeting, and then use the sprint backlog as a focal point for the scrum. We project the sprint detail chart (we use Scrumworks) on the wall and it helps maintain focus on the goals of the sprint (and also helps to highlight when people might be working on things that aren't contributing directly to the goals).
                     
                    -Jeff


                    From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Molchon, Robert
                    Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 11:20 AM
                    To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [scrumdevelopment] updating tasks during scrum meetings?

                    Hello all,

                     

                    I just want some clarification. Is it considered good or bad practice for the team members to report back progress on task items during the scrum meeting?  For instance, "I want to change the time remaining for 'designing the database' from 8 hrs to 4hrs." Technically this is not one of the 3 questions.

                     

                    I was wondering how people deal with adjusting the sprint log daily. Should team members just tell the ScrumMaster? Should they update the spring log themselves?

                     

                    Thanks

                    Rob

                     

                    Rob Molchon
                    Senior Software Engineer
                    Unicast
                    The Advertising Group of
                    Viewpoint Corporation (Nasdaq: VWPT)


                    W: 212.201.0856
                    M: 917.214.0551

                    rmolchon@...

                    498 7th Avenue
                    New York, New York  10018

                     



                    To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                    To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...




                    SPONSORED LINKS
                    Scrum


                    YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS






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                  • Pete Behrens
                    Deb, I have also worked with many teams in both round-table standups and task board oriented standups. I have found that task board-based standups provide a
                    Message 9 of 27 , Feb 8, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Deb,

                      I have also worked with many teams in both round-table standups and
                      task board oriented standups. I have found that task board-based
                      standups provide a much higher degree of focus and attention from
                      the entire team. Essentially, team members take turns in front of
                      the task board talking about what they did yesterday, what they are
                      going to do today and what is blocking them. While they are doing
                      this, they update the board, write new estimates, move tasks, etc.
                      Other team members are focused looking at the person, the board and
                      the tasks at hand.

                      With round table-based discussions, I tend to see many of the team
                      members looking down and around because there is nothing to look at
                      other than the person speaking. This tends to defocus individuals
                      with what is actually being discussed and thus there is less
                      questions and discussions on dependencies, issues, etc. from other
                      team members.

                      I believe Hubert was refering to a projected image model-based
                      standup using a tool. I believe this is *very* different from
                      interacting with a task-board. Team members cannot manipulate the
                      projected image, they typically don't point to it or update it.
                      Thus, I agree that this model is much more likely to turn into a
                      status discussion.

                      Pete

                      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Hubert Smits
                      <hubert.smits@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hey Deb,
                      >
                      > I agree with the updating of the backlog: do where it works best,
                      and
                      > before a standup gives you the opportunity to add a dot on the
                      > burndown chart on the wall.
                      >
                      > Reason that I do not like status reporting around a projected
                      image is
                      > that it gives the wrong idea, the wrong starting point. Answering
                      the
                      > three questions give the teammembers information about how the
                      others
                      > are doing and where they need help. You create an admosphere of
                      > working together, team responsibility. Even when teammembers are
                      not
                      > reporting well or even when they are not telling the truth, this
                      > becomes obvious and gives the CSM info on where to work on team
                      > morale.
                      >
                      > Working with the status report is looking at the individual
                      > achievements, Johnny is behind and Mary is ahead of plan. The
                      power of
                      > the 3 questions is gone. It is a subtle psychological difference.
                      I do
                      > promote standing around the taskboard for the standup, it does
                      trigger
                      > questions and reporting. But (to quote you) interact with each
                      other,
                      > not with the taskboard - it's about the people.
                      >
                      > Hope this helps,
                      >
                      > Hubert
                      >
                      >
                      > On 2/8/06, Deb <deborah@...> wrote:
                      > > PS: regardless of how the standup is run, it is typical to have
                      team
                      > > members update "time remaining" before the meeting so that
                      everyone
                      > > can see what the remaining workload looks like.
                      > >
                      > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Deb" <deborah@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Hubert, this is interesting.
                      > > >
                      > > > I've seen both - where team members interact with each other,
                      and
                      > > > where team members essentially interact with the taskboard (the
                      > > > equivalent of the "sprint backlog" below?) These two modes have
                      > > > totally different feel...
                      > > >
                      > > > Could you say more about your experience with this? What is
                      the goal
                      > > > of the Scrum meeting and why does one format achieve it better?
                      > > >
                      > > > Thanks
                      > > > deb
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Hubert Smits
                      > > > <hubert.smits@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Hi Jeff,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I don't understand this, probably due to a mix up of words.
                      You say
                      > > > 'use the
                      > > > > sprint log as a focal point for the scrum' I guess you mean
                      the
                      > > stand-up
                      > > > > meeting. Anyway, I can't support this practice: you make the
                      standup
                      > > > into a
                      > > > > status meeting, which is not the goal. A standup is to
                      exchange
                      > > > information
                      > > > > between the teammembers. In my views you don't create enough
                      > > > teamspirit if
                      > > > > you focus on the progress.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > My view on Rob's question: all options are good, I've seen
                      them all
                      > > > work:
                      > > > > before, during and separate from the stand-up meeting. Find
                      out what
                      > > > works
                      > > > > for the team.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --Hubert
                      > > > >
                      > > > > On 2/8/06, Jeff Heinen <jheinen@> wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > What we typically do is make sure folks have updated the
                      sprint
                      > > tasks
                      > > > > > prior to the meeting, and then use the sprint backlog as a
                      focal
                      > > > point for
                      > > > > > the scrum. We project the sprint detail chart (we use
                      Scrumworks)
                      > > > on the
                      > > > > > wall and it helps maintain focus on the goals of the
                      sprint (and
                      > > > also helps
                      > > > > > to highlight when people might be working on things that
                      aren't
                      > > > contributing
                      > > > > > directly to the goals).
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > -Jeff
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > ------------------------------
                      > > > > > *From:* scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
                      > > > > > scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Molchon,
                      Robert
                      > > > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 08, 2006 11:20 AM
                      > > > > > *To:* scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > > *Subject:* [scrumdevelopment] updating tasks during scrum
                      meetings?
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Hello all,
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I just want some clarification. Is it considered good or
                      bad
                      > > > practice for
                      > > > > > the team members to report back progress on task items
                      during the
                      > > > scrum
                      > > > > > meeting? For instance, "I want to change the time
                      remaining for
                      > > > 'designing
                      > > > > > the database' from 8 hrs to 4hrs." Technically this is not
                      one of
                      > > > the 3
                      > > > > > questions.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I was wondering how people deal with adjusting the sprint
                      log daily.
                      > > > > > Should team members just tell the ScrumMaster? Should they
                      update
                      > > > the spring
                      > > > > > log themselves?
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Thanks
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Rob
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > *Rob Molchon**
                      > > > > > *Senior Software Engineer
                      > > > > > *[image: Unicast]
                      > > > > > **The Advertising Group of
                      > > > > > Viewpoint Corporation (Nasdaq: VWPT)**
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > **W: 212.201.0856
                      > > > > > M: 917.214.0551**
                      > > > > > *rmolchon@
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > 498 7th Avenue
                      > > > > > New York, New York 10018
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@
                      > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                      > > > > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS
                      > > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > Scrum<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                      t=ms&k=Scrum&w1=Scrum&c=1&s=11&.sig=KvDTKhw7ncC9XbB25jdApQ>
                      > > > > > ------------------------------
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                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > - Visit your group
                      > >
                      > "scrumdevelopment<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scrumdevelopment>"
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                      > > > > > - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                      unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
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                    • Jeff Heinen
                      That s the problem. They weren t. Now they are. ________________________________ From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                      Message 10 of 27 , Feb 8, 2006
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                        That's the problem. They weren't. Now they are.


                        From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hubert Smits
                        Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 1:30 PM
                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] updating tasks during scrum meetings?

                        Let me challenge you. If the team achieves their commitments in the scenario that you paint (people doing pet projects). What is the problem?

                        --Hubert

                        On 2/8/06, Jeff Heinen <jheinen@...> wrote:
                        We definately focus on team communication. The task board is helpful because it gets people to think in terms of the tasks that need to be done to acheive the goals. We actually started doing it because people would be talking about what they had done since the previous scrum, and very often they were working on things that had nothing to do with the team's goals (e.g. "pet" projects, favors for other people, etc.) Using the board as a focus keeps people thinking about what they have to get done, and other team members will often ask "what did that have to do with our goals?" when someone was working on things that weren't on the task board. Alternatively they would recognize that the task really should be on the backlog and the team took the opportunity to make sure that task got added so the sprint burndown accurately reflected the real work remaining.
                         
                        I agree that the scrum is not about reporting status to the scrum master or to management, but I do think it is very much about reporting status to the rest of the team. Otherwise the only question you'd care about is "what impediments do you have?" Telling the team what you've worked on and what you're going to work on is a way to communicate how you are working to advance the teams's progress toward the goals, and it gives the team an opportunity to determine if they are being as productive as they could be and provide feedback to the individual team member.
                         
                        -Jeff


                        From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hubert Smits
                        Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 11:50 AM
                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] updating tasks during scrum meetings?

                        Hi Jeff,

                        I don't understand this, probably due to a mix up of words. You say 'use the sprint log as a focal point for the scrum' I guess you mean the stand-up meeting. Anyway, I can't support this practice: you make the standup into a status meeting, which is not the goal. A standup is to exchange information between the teammembers. In my views you don't create enough teamspirit if you focus on the progress.

                        My view on Rob's question: all options are good, I've seen them all work: before, during and separate from the stand-up meeting. Find out what works for the team.

                        --Hubert

                        On 2/8/06, Jeff Heinen <jheinen@...> wrote:
                        What we typically do is make sure folks have updated the sprint tasks prior to the meeting, and then use the sprint backlog as a focal point for the scrum. We project the sprint detail chart (we use Scrumworks) on the wall and it helps maintain focus on the goals of the sprint (and also helps to highlight when people might be working on things that aren't contributing directly to the goals).
                         
                        -Jeff


                        From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Molchon, Robert
                        Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 11:20 AM
                        To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [scrumdevelopment] updating tasks during scrum meetings?

                        Hello all,

                         

                        I just want some clarification. Is it considered good or bad practice for the team members to report back progress on task items during the scrum meeting?  For instance, "I want to change the time remaining for 'designing the database' from 8 hrs to 4hrs." Technically this is not one of the 3 questions.

                         

                        I was wondering how people deal with adjusting the sprint log daily. Should team members just tell the ScrumMaster? Should they update the spring log themselves?

                         

                        Thanks

                        Rob

                         

                        Rob Molchon
                        Senior Software Engineer
                        Unicast
                        The Advertising Group of
                        Viewpoint Corporation (Nasdaq: VWPT)


                        W: 212.201.0856
                        M: 917.214.0551

                        rmolchon@...

                        498 7th Avenue
                        New York, New York  10018

                         



                        To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
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                      • Hubert Smits
                        Did the team learn this during the retrospective, and did they come up with the solution? Why didn t the problem get noticed by the CSM looking at the
                        Message 11 of 27 , Feb 8, 2006
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                          Did the team learn this during the retrospective, and did they come up with the solution? Why didn't the problem get noticed by the CSM looking at the burndown, and why didn't the team correct it during the standups?

                          --Hubert

                          On 2/8/06, Jeff Heinen <jheinen@...> wrote:
                          That's the problem. They weren't. Now they are.


                          From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hubert Smits
                          Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 1:30 PM
                          To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] updating tasks during scrum meetings?

                          Let me challenge you. If the team achieves their commitments in the scenario that you paint (people doing pet projects). What is the problem?

                          --Hubert

                          On 2/8/06, Jeff Heinen <jheinen@...> wrote:
                          We definately focus on team communication. The task board is helpful because it gets people to think in terms of the tasks that need to be done to acheive the goals. We actually started doing it because people would be talking about what they had done since the previous scrum, and very often they were working on things that had nothing to do with the team's goals (e.g. "pet" projects, favors for other people, etc.) Using the board as a focus keeps people thinking about what they have to get done, and other team members will often ask "what did that have to do with our goals?" when someone was working on things that weren't on the task board. Alternatively they would recognize that the task really should be on the backlog and the team took the opportunity to make sure that task got added so the sprint burndown accurately reflected the real work remaining.
                           
                          I agree that the scrum is not about reporting status to the scrum master or to management, but I do think it is very much about reporting status to the rest of the team. Otherwise the only question you'd care about is "what impediments do you have?" Telling the team what you've worked on and what you're going to work on is a way to communicate how you are working to advance the teams's progress toward the goals, and it gives the team an opportunity to determine if they are being as productive as they could be and provide feedback to the individual team member.
                           
                          -Jeff

                        • Jeff Heinen
                          It was sort of a combination. The CSM noticed the problem, and suggested the team try using the task board. The team found it easier to stay focused on the
                          Message 12 of 27 , Feb 8, 2006
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                            It was sort of a combination. The CSM noticed the problem, and suggested the team try using the task board. The team found it easier to stay focused on the goals when they had them in front of them as part of the stand-up. It also helped the team keep their estimates up to date. Previously the burn down would go flat because they wouldn't keep the backlog up to date. This prevented them from having an accurate picture of whether or not they were on track to succeed. By using the task board as a focus, they tended to keep the estimates current because they knew they were going to talk about it. Every team doesn't need to do this, but I think if you are having problems with focusing on the goals then using the task board can be a big help.


                            From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hubert Smits
                            Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 3:19 PM
                            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] updating tasks during scrum meetings?

                            Did the team learn this during the retrospective, and did they come up with the solution? Why didn't the problem get noticed by the CSM looking at the burndown, and why didn't the team correct it during the standups?

                            --Hubert

                            On 2/8/06, Jeff Heinen <jheinen@...> wrote:
                            That's the problem. They weren't. Now they are.


                            From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Hubert Smits
                            Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 1:30 PM
                            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] updating tasks during scrum meetings?

                            Let me challenge you. If the team achieves their commitments in the scenario that you paint (people doing pet projects). What is the problem?

                            --Hubert

                            On 2/8/06, Jeff Heinen <jheinen@...> wrote:
                            We definately focus on team communication. The task board is helpful because it gets people to think in terms of the tasks that need to be done to acheive the goals. We actually started doing it because people would be talking about what they had done since the previous scrum, and very often they were working on things that had nothing to do with the team's goals (e.g. "pet" projects, favors for other people, etc.) Using the board as a focus keeps people thinking about what they have to get done, and other team members will often ask "what did that have to do with our goals?" when someone was working on things that weren't on the task board. Alternatively they would recognize that the task really should be on the backlog and the team took the opportunity to make sure that task got added so the sprint burndown accurately reflected the real work remaining.
                             
                            I agree that the scrum is not about reporting status to the scrum master or to management, but I do think it is very much about reporting status to the rest of the team. Otherwise the only question you'd care about is "what impediments do you have?" Telling the team what you've worked on and what you're going to work on is a way to communicate how you are working to advance the teams's progress toward the goals, and it gives the team an opportunity to determine if they are being as productive as they could be and provide feedback to the individual team member.
                             
                            -Jeff

                          • Jeff Heinen
                            I would a agree that a projected image isn t the best route to take, although in our situation the image is projected at eye-level and we don t have a
                            Message 13 of 27 , Feb 8, 2006
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                              I would a agree that a projected image isn't the best route to take,
                              although in our situation the image is projected at eye-level and we
                              don't have a conference table in the middle of the team. So what tends
                              to happen is people point to the board, tell the CSM to move in item,
                              add a task, revise an estimate etc., and the CSM obliges as a scribe.
                              This team also initially was using a cork board with cards, so in
                              hindsight I guess that was already an established pattern that
                              translated to the projection.

                              > -----Original Message-----
                              > From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              > [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Pete Behrens
                              > Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 1:35 PM
                              > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: updating tasks during scrum meetings?
                              >
                              > Deb,
                              >
                              > I have also worked with many teams in both round-table
                              > standups and task board oriented standups. I have found that
                              > task board-based standups provide a much higher degree of
                              > focus and attention from the entire team. Essentially, team
                              > members take turns in front of the task board talking about
                              > what they did yesterday, what they are going to do today and
                              > what is blocking them. While they are doing this, they update
                              > the board, write new estimates, move tasks, etc.
                              > Other team members are focused looking at the person, the
                              > board and the tasks at hand.
                              >
                              > With round table-based discussions, I tend to see many of the
                              > team members looking down and around because there is nothing
                              > to look at other than the person speaking. This tends to
                              > defocus individuals with what is actually being discussed and
                              > thus there is less questions and discussions on dependencies,
                              > issues, etc. from other team members.
                              >
                              > I believe Hubert was refering to a projected image
                              > model-based standup using a tool. I believe this is *very*
                              > different from interacting with a task-board. Team members
                              > cannot manipulate the projected image, they typically don't
                              > point to it or update it.
                              > Thus, I agree that this model is much more likely to turn
                              > into a status discussion.
                              >
                              > Pete
                              >
                              > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Hubert Smits
                              > <hubert.smits@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hey Deb,
                              > >
                              > > I agree with the updating of the backlog: do where it works best,
                              > and
                              > > before a standup gives you the opportunity to add a dot on the
                              > > burndown chart on the wall.
                              > >
                              > > Reason that I do not like status reporting around a projected
                              > image is
                              > > that it gives the wrong idea, the wrong starting point. Answering
                              > the
                              > > three questions give the teammembers information about how the
                              > others
                              > > are doing and where they need help. You create an admosphere of
                              > > working together, team responsibility. Even when teammembers are
                              > not
                              > > reporting well or even when they are not telling the truth, this
                              > > becomes obvious and gives the CSM info on where to work on team
                              > > morale.
                              > >
                              > > Working with the status report is looking at the individual
                              > > achievements, Johnny is behind and Mary is ahead of plan. The
                              > power of
                              > > the 3 questions is gone. It is a subtle psychological difference.
                              > I do
                              > > promote standing around the taskboard for the standup, it does
                              > trigger
                              > > questions and reporting. But (to quote you) interact with each
                              > other,
                              > > not with the taskboard - it's about the people.
                              > >
                              > > Hope this helps,
                              > >
                              > > Hubert
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > On 2/8/06, Deb <deborah@...> wrote:
                              > > > PS: regardless of how the standup is run, it is typical to have
                              > team
                              > > > members update "time remaining" before the meeting so that
                              > everyone
                              > > > can see what the remaining workload looks like.
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Deb" <deborah@> wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Hubert, this is interesting.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I've seen both - where team members interact with each other,
                              > and
                              > > > > where team members essentially interact with the taskboard (the
                              > > > > equivalent of the "sprint backlog" below?) These two modes have
                              > > > > totally different feel...
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Could you say more about your experience with this? What is
                              > the goal
                              > > > > of the Scrum meeting and why does one format achieve it better?
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Thanks
                              > > > > deb
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Hubert Smits
                              > > > > <hubert.smits@> wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Hi Jeff,
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > I don't understand this, probably due to a mix up of words.
                              > You say
                              > > > > 'use the
                              > > > > > sprint log as a focal point for the scrum' I guess you mean
                              > the
                              > > > stand-up
                              > > > > > meeting. Anyway, I can't support this practice: you make the
                              > standup
                              > > > > into a
                              > > > > > status meeting, which is not the goal. A standup is to
                              > exchange
                              > > > > information
                              > > > > > between the teammembers. In my views you don't create enough
                              > > > > teamspirit if
                              > > > > > you focus on the progress.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > My view on Rob's question: all options are good, I've seen
                              > them all
                              > > > > work:
                              > > > > > before, during and separate from the stand-up meeting. Find
                              > out what
                              > > > > works
                              > > > > > for the team.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > --Hubert
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > On 2/8/06, Jeff Heinen <jheinen@> wrote:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > What we typically do is make sure folks have updated the
                              > sprint
                              > > > tasks
                              > > > > > > prior to the meeting, and then use the sprint backlog as a
                              > focal
                              > > > > point for
                              > > > > > > the scrum. We project the sprint detail chart (we use
                              > Scrumworks)
                              > > > > on the
                              > > > > > > wall and it helps maintain focus on the goals of the
                              > sprint (and
                              > > > > also helps
                              > > > > > > to highlight when people might be working on things that
                              > aren't
                              > > > > contributing
                              > > > > > > directly to the goals).
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > -Jeff
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > ------------------------------
                              > > > > > > *From:* scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
                              > > > > > > scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Molchon,
                              > Robert
                              > > > > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 08, 2006 11:20 AM
                              > > > > > > *To:* scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > > > > *Subject:* [scrumdevelopment] updating tasks during scrum
                              > meetings?
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Hello all,
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > I just want some clarification. Is it considered good or
                              > bad
                              > > > > practice for
                              > > > > > > the team members to report back progress on task items
                              > during the
                              > > > > scrum
                              > > > > > > meeting? For instance, "I want to change the time
                              > remaining for
                              > > > > 'designing
                              > > > > > > the database' from 8 hrs to 4hrs." Technically this is not
                              > one of
                              > > > > the 3
                              > > > > > > questions.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > I was wondering how people deal with adjusting the sprint
                              > log daily.
                              > > > > > > Should team members just tell the ScrumMaster? Should they
                              > update
                              > > > > the spring
                              > > > > > > log themselves?
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Thanks
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Rob
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > *Rob Molchon**
                              > > > > > > *Senior Software Engineer
                              > > > > > > *[image: Unicast]
                              > > > > > > **The Advertising Group of
                              > > > > > > Viewpoint Corporation (Nasdaq: VWPT)**
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > **W: 212.201.0856
                              > > > > > > M: 917.214.0551**
                              > > > > > > *rmolchon@
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > 498 7th Avenue
                              > > > > > > New York, New York 10018
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@
                              > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
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                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > Scrum<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
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                            • David H.
                              ... Why? The team Members do not report to the Scrum Master. ... Yes of course, why not? -d
                              Message 14 of 27 , Feb 8, 2006
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                                Molchon, Robert wrote:
                                > Hello all,

                                >
                                >
                                > I was wondering how people deal with adjusting the sprint log daily.
                                > Should team members just tell the ScrumMaster?

                                Why? The team Members do not "report" to the Scrum Master.

                                > Should they update the
                                > spring log themselves?
                                >
                                Yes of course, why not?

                                -d
                              • Hubert Smits
                                Wasn t this the question that started this thread? Do read it, there are good answers to your question. --Hubert
                                Message 15 of 27 , Feb 8, 2006
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                                  Wasn't this the question that started this thread? Do read it, there are good answers to your question.

                                  --Hubert

                                  On 2/8/06, Molchon, Robert < rmolchon@...> wrote:

                                  Hello all,

                                   

                                  I just want some clarification. Is it considered good or bad practice for the team members to report back progress on task items during the scrum meeting?  For instance, "I want to change the time remaining for 'designing the database' from 8 hrs to 4hrs." Technically this is not one of the 3 questions.

                                   

                                  I was wondering how people deal with adjusting the sprint log daily. Should team members just tell the ScrumMaster? Should they update the spring log themselves?

                                   

                                  Thanks

                                  Rob

                                   

                                  Rob Molchon
                                  Senior Software Engineer
                                  Unicast
                                  The Advertising Group of
                                  Viewpoint Corporation (Nasdaq: VWPT)


                                  W: 212.201.0856
                                  M: 917.214.0551

                                  rmolchon@...

                                  498 7th Avenue
                                  New York , New York  10018

                                   



                                  To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                                  To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...




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                                • Hubert Smits
                                  Jeff, If it works, it works, so hang on to it. Same goes for using the taskboard as a driver. You took away my concern that the team wasn t involved in the
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Feb 8, 2006
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                                    Jeff,

                                    If it works, it works, so hang on to it. Same goes for using the
                                    taskboard as a driver. You took away my concern that the team wasn't
                                    involved in the decision making, and the discovery of the process
                                    flaw. Keep Scrumming!

                                    --Hubert

                                    On 2/8/06, Jeff Heinen <jheinen@...> wrote:
                                    > I would a agree that a projected image isn't the best route to take,
                                    > although in our situation the image is projected at eye-level and we
                                    > don't have a conference table in the middle of the team. So what tends
                                    > to happen is people point to the board, tell the CSM to move in item,
                                    > add a task, revise an estimate etc., and the CSM obliges as a scribe.
                                    > This team also initially was using a cork board with cards, so in
                                    > hindsight I guess that was already an established pattern that
                                    > translated to the projection.
                                    >
                                    > > -----Original Message-----
                                    > > From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Pete Behrens
                                    > > Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2006 1:35 PM
                                    > > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: updating tasks during scrum meetings?
                                    > >
                                    > > Deb,
                                    > >
                                    > > I have also worked with many teams in both round-table
                                    > > standups and task board oriented standups. I have found that
                                    > > task board-based standups provide a much higher degree of
                                    > > focus and attention from the entire team. Essentially, team
                                    > > members take turns in front of the task board talking about
                                    > > what they did yesterday, what they are going to do today and
                                    > > what is blocking them. While they are doing this, they update
                                    > > the board, write new estimates, move tasks, etc.
                                    > > Other team members are focused looking at the person, the
                                    > > board and the tasks at hand.
                                    > >
                                    > > With round table-based discussions, I tend to see many of the
                                    > > team members looking down and around because there is nothing
                                    > > to look at other than the person speaking. This tends to
                                    > > defocus individuals with what is actually being discussed and
                                    > > thus there is less questions and discussions on dependencies,
                                    > > issues, etc. from other team members.
                                    > >
                                    > > I believe Hubert was refering to a projected image
                                    > > model-based standup using a tool. I believe this is *very*
                                    > > different from interacting with a task-board. Team members
                                    > > cannot manipulate the projected image, they typically don't
                                    > > point to it or update it.
                                    > > Thus, I agree that this model is much more likely to turn
                                    > > into a status discussion.
                                    > >
                                    > > Pete
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Hubert Smits
                                    > > <hubert.smits@...> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Hey Deb,
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I agree with the updating of the backlog: do where it works best,
                                    > > and
                                    > > > before a standup gives you the opportunity to add a dot on the
                                    > > > burndown chart on the wall.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Reason that I do not like status reporting around a projected
                                    > > image is
                                    > > > that it gives the wrong idea, the wrong starting point. Answering
                                    > > the
                                    > > > three questions give the teammembers information about how the
                                    > > others
                                    > > > are doing and where they need help. You create an admosphere of
                                    > > > working together, team responsibility. Even when teammembers are
                                    > > not
                                    > > > reporting well or even when they are not telling the truth, this
                                    > > > becomes obvious and gives the CSM info on where to work on team
                                    > > > morale.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Working with the status report is looking at the individual
                                    > > > achievements, Johnny is behind and Mary is ahead of plan. The
                                    > > power of
                                    > > > the 3 questions is gone. It is a subtle psychological difference.
                                    > > I do
                                    > > > promote standing around the taskboard for the standup, it does
                                    > > trigger
                                    > > > questions and reporting. But (to quote you) interact with each
                                    > > other,
                                    > > > not with the taskboard - it's about the people.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Hope this helps,
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Hubert
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > On 2/8/06, Deb <deborah@...> wrote:
                                    > > > > PS: regardless of how the standup is run, it is typical to have
                                    > > team
                                    > > > > members update "time remaining" before the meeting so that
                                    > > everyone
                                    > > > > can see what the remaining workload looks like.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Deb" <deborah@> wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Hubert, this is interesting.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > I've seen both - where team members interact with each other,
                                    > > and
                                    > > > > > where team members essentially interact with the taskboard (the
                                    > > > > > equivalent of the "sprint backlog" below?) These two modes have
                                    > > > > > totally different feel...
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Could you say more about your experience with this? What is
                                    > > the goal
                                    > > > > > of the Scrum meeting and why does one format achieve it better?
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Thanks
                                    > > > > > deb
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Hubert Smits
                                    > > > > > <hubert.smits@> wrote:
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Hi Jeff,
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > I don't understand this, probably due to a mix up of words.
                                    > > You say
                                    > > > > > 'use the
                                    > > > > > > sprint log as a focal point for the scrum' I guess you mean
                                    > > the
                                    > > > > stand-up
                                    > > > > > > meeting. Anyway, I can't support this practice: you make the
                                    > > standup
                                    > > > > > into a
                                    > > > > > > status meeting, which is not the goal. A standup is to
                                    > > exchange
                                    > > > > > information
                                    > > > > > > between the teammembers. In my views you don't create enough
                                    > > > > > teamspirit if
                                    > > > > > > you focus on the progress.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > My view on Rob's question: all options are good, I've seen
                                    > > them all
                                    > > > > > work:
                                    > > > > > > before, during and separate from the stand-up meeting. Find
                                    > > out what
                                    > > > > > works
                                    > > > > > > for the team.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > --Hubert
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > On 2/8/06, Jeff Heinen <jheinen@> wrote:
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > What we typically do is make sure folks have updated the
                                    > > sprint
                                    > > > > tasks
                                    > > > > > > > prior to the meeting, and then use the sprint backlog as a
                                    > > focal
                                    > > > > > point for
                                    > > > > > > > the scrum. We project the sprint detail chart (we use
                                    > > Scrumworks)
                                    > > > > > on the
                                    > > > > > > > wall and it helps maintain focus on the goals of the
                                    > > sprint (and
                                    > > > > > also helps
                                    > > > > > > > to highlight when people might be working on things that
                                    > > aren't
                                    > > > > > contributing
                                    > > > > > > > directly to the goals).
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > -Jeff
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > ------------------------------
                                    > > > > > > > *From:* scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
                                    > > > > > > > scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Molchon,
                                    > > Robert
                                    > > > > > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 08, 2006 11:20 AM
                                    > > > > > > > *To:* scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > > > > > > *Subject:* [scrumdevelopment] updating tasks during scrum
                                    > > meetings?
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > Hello all,
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > I just want some clarification. Is it considered good or
                                    > > bad
                                    > > > > > practice for
                                    > > > > > > > the team members to report back progress on task items
                                    > > during the
                                    > > > > > scrum
                                    > > > > > > > meeting? For instance, "I want to change the time
                                    > > remaining for
                                    > > > > > 'designing
                                    > > > > > > > the database' from 8 hrs to 4hrs." Technically this is not
                                    > > one of
                                    > > > > > the 3
                                    > > > > > > > questions.
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > I was wondering how people deal with adjusting the sprint
                                    > > log daily.
                                    > > > > > > > Should team members just tell the ScrumMaster? Should they
                                    > > update
                                    > > > > > the spring
                                    > > > > > > > log themselves?
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > Thanks
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > Rob
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > *Rob Molchon**
                                    > > > > > > > *Senior Software Engineer
                                    > > > > > > > *[image: Unicast]
                                    > > > > > > > **The Advertising Group of
                                    > > > > > > > Viewpoint Corporation (Nasdaq: VWPT)**
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > **W: 212.201.0856
                                    > > > > > > > M: 917.214.0551**
                                    > > > > > > > *rmolchon@
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > 498 7th Avenue
                                    > > > > > > > New York, New York 10018
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@
                                    > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                    > > > > > > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > Scrum<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                    > > t=ms&k=Scrum&w1=Scrum&c=1&s=11&.sig=KvDTKhw7ncC9XbB25jdApQ>
                                    > > > > > > > ------------------------------ YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > - Visit your group
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > "scrumdevelopment<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scrumdevelopment>"
                                    > > > > > > > on the web.
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > - To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<scrumdevelopment-
                                    > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > - Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                    > > Terms of
                                    > > > > > > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > ------------------------------
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                                    > > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-
                                    > > unsubscribe@...
                                    > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                                    > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                    > > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    > >
                                    > >
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                                    > >
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                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                                    > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
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                                  • mpkirby@frontiernet.net
                                    ... So I m the customer. I start hearing that developers are working on cool new features but they are things that aren t in the current iteration. In
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Feb 8, 2006
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                                      On 8 Feb 2006 at 14:30, Hubert Smits wrote:

                                      > Let me challenge you. If the team achieves their commitments in the
                                      > scenario that you paint (people doing pet projects). What is the
                                      > problem?

                                      So I'm the customer. I start hearing that developers are working on "cool new features" but
                                      they are things that aren't in the current iteration. In fact, these "pet projects" aren't even on
                                      the product backlog.

                                      Yet, the team is still meeting its deliverables. I could have a number of reactions.

                                      1) The team is sandbagging their estimates so they can do "fun stuff" that isn't high priority to
                                      me.

                                      2) The team is over-achieving (and is focusing their resources on innovative things that will
                                      help drive the product forward that I might not have thought about.

                                      3) The team is dropping things I want them to work on in favor of things they want to work on.

                                      In the 3rd case, it shows up in the burndown.

                                      But in the 1st and 2nd case, it doesn't. Choice 1 is the negative way to look at it, and choice
                                      2 is the positive way to look at it.

                                      But here's the question back to you.

                                      Shouldn't the innovative work be on the burndown? Shouldn't I write a story for investigating
                                      the neat new technology that will do wonders for my customer? Shouldn't I get the customer
                                      to agree (or at least acknowledge) that it might have so me value before I comitt 50 hours to
                                      it?

                                      Mike

                                      ---
                                      mpkirby@...
                                    • Ron Jeffries
                                      ... In some sense, it seems to me that this must be true. ... They might be doing great stuff. But it s your job to decide the priorities. You should be
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Feb 8, 2006
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                                        On Wednesday, February 8, 2006, at 10:56:21 PM, mpkirby@... wrote:

                                        >> Let me challenge you. If the team achieves their commitments in the
                                        >> scenario that you paint (people doing pet projects). What is the
                                        >> problem?

                                        > So I'm the customer. I start hearing that developers are working
                                        > on "cool new features" but they are things that aren't in the
                                        > current iteration. In fact, these "pet projects" aren't even on
                                        > the product backlog.

                                        > Yet, the team is still meeting its deliverables. I could have a
                                        > number of reactions.

                                        > 1) The team is sandbagging their estimates so they can do "fun
                                        > stuff" that isn't high priority to me.

                                        In some sense, it seems to me that this must be true.

                                        > 2) The team is over-achieving (and is focusing their resources on
                                        > innovative things that will help drive the product forward that I
                                        > might not have thought about.

                                        They might be doing great stuff. But it's your job to decide the
                                        priorities. You should be informed, and should be deciding.

                                        > 3) The team is dropping things I want them to work on in favor of
                                        > things they want to work on.

                                        They are at least taking resources off the table that COULD be used
                                        to work on your stuff.

                                        > In the 3rd case, it shows up in the burndown.

                                        > But in the 1st and 2nd case, it doesn't. Choice 1 is the negative
                                        > way to look at it, and choice 2 is the positive way to look at it.

                                        The way I look at it, the team is doing things that are not guided
                                        by the business people. That's not positive as I understand it.

                                        > But here's the question back to you.

                                        > Shouldn't the innovative work be on the burndown? Shouldn't I
                                        > write a story for investigating the neat new technology that will
                                        > do wonders for my customer? Shouldn't I get the customer to agree
                                        > (or at least acknowledge) that it might have so me value before I
                                        > comitt 50 hours to it?

                                        If the team is doing what they are asked, and more work as well, but
                                        the product owner isn't defining that work, that seems wrong to me.
                                        It seems to me that Scrum teams are supposed to work solely on the
                                        backlog and on whatever technical stuff is needed to support it.

                                        Ron Jeffries
                                        www.XProgramming.com
                                        Adapt, improvise, overcome.
                                        --Gunnery Sergeant Tom Highway (Heartbreak Ridge)
                                      • Hubert Smits
                                        Yes to all your questions (research should go into the backlog (not the burndown)). In my company we have time reserved to do these things without being
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Feb 8, 2006
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                                          Yes to all your questions (research should go into the backlog (not
                                          the burndown)).

                                          In my company we have time reserved to do these things without being
                                          planned, we call 'm hackatons, and the developers can freely spend a
                                          few days on their research, which is then be shared with the product
                                          owner and evaluated.

                                          And for first your responses: the SM has now a task to challenge the
                                          team to take on more work in the next sprint, without bullying them
                                          into commitment. Tricky.

                                          --Hubert

                                          On 2/8/06, mpkirby@... <mpkirby@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > On 8 Feb 2006 at 14:30, Hubert Smits wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > Let me challenge you. If the team achieves their commitments in the
                                          > > scenario that you paint (people doing pet projects). What is the
                                          > > problem?
                                          >
                                          > So I'm the customer. I start hearing that developers are working on "cool new features" but
                                          > they are things that aren't in the current iteration. In fact, these "pet projects" aren't even on
                                          > the product backlog.
                                          >
                                          > Yet, the team is still meeting its deliverables. I could have a number of reactions.
                                          >
                                          > 1) The team is sandbagging their estimates so they can do "fun stuff" that isn't high priority to
                                          > me.
                                          >
                                          > 2) The team is over-achieving (and is focusing their resources on innovative things that will
                                          > help drive the product forward that I might not have thought about.
                                          >
                                          > 3) The team is dropping things I want them to work on in favor of things they want to work on.
                                          >
                                          > In the 3rd case, it shows up in the burndown.
                                          >
                                          > But in the 1st and 2nd case, it doesn't. Choice 1 is the negative way to look at it, and choice
                                          > 2 is the positive way to look at it.
                                          >
                                          > But here's the question back to you.
                                          >
                                          > Shouldn't the innovative work be on the burndown? Shouldn't I write a story for investigating
                                          > the neat new technology that will do wonders for my customer? Shouldn't I get the customer
                                          > to agree (or at least acknowledge) that it might have so me value before I comitt 50 hours to
                                          > it?
                                          >
                                          > Mike
                                          >
                                          > ---
                                          > mpkirby@...
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                                          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • Hubert Smits
                                          Hey Ron, Ken made you an Honorary ScrumMaster for the right reasons! I agree with all your comments, assuming that you is the product owner, not the
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Feb 8, 2006
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                                            Hey Ron,

                                            Ken made you an Honorary ScrumMaster for the right reasons! I agree
                                            with all your comments, assuming that 'you' is the product owner, not
                                            the ScrumMaster.

                                            --Hubert

                                            On 2/8/06, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
                                            > On Wednesday, February 8, 2006, at 10:56:21 PM, mpkirby@... wrote:
                                            >
                                            > >> Let me challenge you. If the team achieves their commitments in the
                                            > >> scenario that you paint (people doing pet projects). What is the
                                            > >> problem?
                                            >
                                            > > So I'm the customer. I start hearing that developers are working
                                            > > on "cool new features" but they are things that aren't in the
                                            > > current iteration. In fact, these "pet projects" aren't even on
                                            > > the product backlog.
                                            >
                                            > > Yet, the team is still meeting its deliverables. I could have a
                                            > > number of reactions.
                                            >
                                            > > 1) The team is sandbagging their estimates so they can do "fun
                                            > > stuff" that isn't high priority to me.
                                            >
                                            > In some sense, it seems to me that this must be true.
                                            >
                                            > > 2) The team is over-achieving (and is focusing their resources on
                                            > > innovative things that will help drive the product forward that I
                                            > > might not have thought about.
                                            >
                                            > They might be doing great stuff. But it's your job to decide the
                                            > priorities. You should be informed, and should be deciding.
                                            >
                                            > > 3) The team is dropping things I want them to work on in favor of
                                            > > things they want to work on.
                                            >
                                            > They are at least taking resources off the table that COULD be used
                                            > to work on your stuff.
                                            >
                                            > > In the 3rd case, it shows up in the burndown.
                                            >
                                            > > But in the 1st and 2nd case, it doesn't. Choice 1 is the negative
                                            > > way to look at it, and choice 2 is the positive way to look at it.
                                            >
                                            > The way I look at it, the team is doing things that are not guided
                                            > by the business people. That's not positive as I understand it.
                                            >
                                            > > But here's the question back to you.
                                            >
                                            > > Shouldn't the innovative work be on the burndown? Shouldn't I
                                            > > write a story for investigating the neat new technology that will
                                            > > do wonders for my customer? Shouldn't I get the customer to agree
                                            > > (or at least acknowledge) that it might have so me value before I
                                            > > comitt 50 hours to it?
                                            >
                                            > If the team is doing what they are asked, and more work as well, but
                                            > the product owner isn't defining that work, that seems wrong to me.
                                            > It seems to me that Scrum teams are supposed to work solely on the
                                            > backlog and on whatever technical stuff is needed to support it.
                                            >
                                            > Ron Jeffries
                                            > www.XProgramming.com
                                            > Adapt, improvise, overcome.
                                            > --Gunnery Sergeant Tom Highway (Heartbreak Ridge)
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                                            > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • Ron Jeffries
                                            ... He subsequently removed the Honorary . As far as I know, he left the ScrumMaster . ;- Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com It s easier to act your way into
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Feb 9, 2006
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                                              On Wednesday, February 8, 2006, at 11:10:43 PM, Hubert Smits wrote:

                                              > Ken made you an Honorary ScrumMaster for the right reasons! I agree
                                              > with all your comments, assuming that 'you' is the product owner, not
                                              > the ScrumMaster.

                                              He subsequently removed the "Honorary". As far as I know, he left
                                              the "ScrumMaster". ;->

                                              Ron Jeffries
                                              www.XProgramming.com
                                              It's easier to act your way into a new way of thinking
                                              than to think your way into a new way of acting. --Millard Fuller
                                            • mpkirby@frontiernet.net
                                              ... Sorry -- terminology slip. ... We have something similar, but it is for competency center use. And they tend to be bigger. We were originally 2
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Feb 9, 2006
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                                                On 8 Feb 2006 at 21:08, Hubert Smits wrote:

                                                > Yes to all your questions (research should go into the backlog (not
                                                > the burndown)).

                                                Sorry -- terminology slip.

                                                > In my company we have time reserved to do these things without being
                                                > planned, we call 'm hackatons, and the developers can freely spend a
                                                > few days on their research, which is then be shared with the product
                                                > owner and evaluated.

                                                We have something similar, but it is for "competency center" use. And they tend to be
                                                bigger. We were originally 2 products, but the long term goal is to merge the two products
                                                (That did very similar things) into a single product.

                                                THus interface changes, infrastructure changes, etc are planned into a bunch of
                                                "infrastructure stories". These stories are limited to 10% of the total spend, so each release
                                                we make progress (albiet, slow progress) toward the organizational goal of a single
                                                implementation for both products.

                                                > And for first your responses: the SM has now a task to challenge the
                                                > team to take on more work in the next sprint, without bullying them
                                                > into commitment. Tricky.

                                                It would seem to me to focus on the "is the work that we are doing a story in the backlog". If
                                                it isn't, perhaps the simplest thing to do is just write the story, estimate it, and immediately
                                                dump it into this month's iteration (I realize that this violates the scrum principles, but work
                                                with me).

                                                Then at the end of the month 2 things can be observed.
                                                - Hey Look how much stuff we got done in total! (much more than we thought we could)
                                                - Hey look how much of this stuff we got done was "interrupt driven" That is wasn't originally
                                                planned.

                                                Then perhaps trying to plan the items next time (with some input from the customer).

                                                Mike

                                                ---
                                                mpkirby@...
                                              • Victor Szalvay
                                                Hubert, This may be a tangential point, but I think it s still worth exploring. From your statement here I m not sure if you are OK with people doing pet
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Feb 9, 2006
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                                                  Hubert,
                                                  This may be a tangential point, but I think it's still worth
                                                  exploring. From your statement here I'm not sure if you are OK with
                                                  people doing pet projects or merely doing some socratic questioning :)
                                                  but I would find "pet projects" to be a big problem, whether or not
                                                  the sprint goals are met.

                                                  First, if the developers are just adding pet features to the system on
                                                  their own they are shouldering the decision making and risk management
                                                  for the product owner. Those "pet features" added will forever need
                                                  to be maintained in the code base at the expense of the product owner
                                                  who never really wanted the features to begin with. This happened to
                                                  me once on a project so I (as PO) asked the team to remove those
                                                  features the following sprint.

                                                  Also, the team seems to be buffering their capacity in anticipation of
                                                  doing pet projects, taking on favors from others, etc. Again, scrum
                                                  is all about full transparency and honesty--this will damage the
                                                  team's relationship with the PO who will feel the team hid important
                                                  information about their capacity.

                                                  Maybe I read this incorrectly, but I just wanted to clarify.

                                                  -- Victor Szalvay
                                                  Danube Technologies, Inc.
                                                  http://www.danube.com

                                                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Hubert Smits
                                                  <hubert.smits@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Let me challenge you. If the team achieves their commitments in the
                                                  scenario
                                                  > that you paint (people doing pet projects). What is the problem?
                                                  >
                                                  > --Hubert
                                                  >
                                                  > On 2/8/06, Jeff Heinen <jheinen@...> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > We definately focus on team communication. The task board is helpful
                                                  > > because it gets people to think in terms of the tasks that need to
                                                  be done
                                                  > > to acheive the goals. We actually started doing it because people
                                                  would be
                                                  > > talking about what they had done since the previous scrum, and
                                                  very often
                                                  > > they were working on things that had nothing to do with the team's
                                                  goals (
                                                  > > e.g. "pet" projects, favors for other people, etc.) Using the
                                                  board as a
                                                  > > focus keeps people thinking about what they have to get done, and
                                                  other team
                                                  > > members will often ask "what did that have to do with our goals?" when
                                                  > > someone was working on things that weren't on the task board.
                                                  Alternatively
                                                  > > they would recognize that the task really should be on the backlog
                                                  and the
                                                  > > team took the opportunity to make sure that task got added so the
                                                  sprint
                                                  > > burndown accurately reflected the real work remaining.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I agree that the scrum is not about reporting status *to the scrum
                                                  master
                                                  > > or to management*, but I do think it is very much about reporting
                                                  status
                                                  > > to the rest of the team. Otherwise the only question you'd care
                                                  about is
                                                  > > "what impediments do you have?" Telling the team what you've
                                                  worked on and
                                                  > > what you're going to work on is a way to communicate how you are
                                                  working to
                                                  > > advance the teams's progress toward the goals, and it gives the
                                                  team an
                                                  > > opportunity to determine if they are being as productive as they
                                                  could be
                                                  > > and provide feedback to the individual team member.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > -Jeff
                                                  > >
                                                  > > ------------------------------
                                                  > > *From:* scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
                                                  > > scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Hubert Smits
                                                  > > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 08, 2006 11:50 AM
                                                  > > *To:* scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > *Subject:* Re: [scrumdevelopment] updating tasks during scrum
                                                  meetings?
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Hi Jeff,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I don't understand this, probably due to a mix up of words. You
                                                  say 'use
                                                  > > the sprint log as a focal point for the scrum' I guess you mean
                                                  the stand-up
                                                  > > meeting. Anyway, I can't support this practice: you make the
                                                  standup into a
                                                  > > status meeting, which is not the goal. A standup is to exchange
                                                  information
                                                  > > between the teammembers. In my views you don't create enough
                                                  teamspirit if
                                                  > > you focus on the progress.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > My view on Rob's question: all options are good, I've seen them
                                                  all work:
                                                  > > before, during and separate from the stand-up meeting. Find out
                                                  what works
                                                  > > for the team.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --Hubert
                                                  > >
                                                  > > On 2/8/06, Jeff Heinen <jheinen@...> wrote:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > What we typically do is make sure folks have updated the sprint
                                                  tasks
                                                  > > > prior to the meeting, and then use the sprint backlog as a focal
                                                  point for
                                                  > > > the scrum. We project the sprint detail chart (we use
                                                  Scrumworks) on the
                                                  > > > wall and it helps maintain focus on the goals of the sprint (and
                                                  also helps
                                                  > > > to highlight when people might be working on things that aren't
                                                  contributing
                                                  > > > directly to the goals).
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > -Jeff
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > ------------------------------
                                                  > > > *From:* scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
                                                  > > > scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Molchon, Robert
                                                  > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, February 08, 2006 11:20 AM
                                                  > > > *To:* scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > > > *Subject:* [scrumdevelopment] updating tasks during scrum meetings?
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Hello all,
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > I just want some clarification. Is it considered good or bad
                                                  practice
                                                  > > > for the team members to report back progress on task items
                                                  during the scrum
                                                  > > > meeting? For instance, "I want to change the time remaining for
                                                  'designing
                                                  > > > the database' from 8 hrs to 4hrs." Technically this is not one
                                                  of the 3
                                                  > > > questions.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > I was wondering how people deal with adjusting the sprint log daily.
                                                  > > > Should team members just tell the ScrumMaster? Should they
                                                  update the spring
                                                  > > > log themselves?
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Thanks
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > Rob
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > *Rob Molchon**
                                                  > > > *Senior Software Engineer
                                                  > > > *[image: Unicast]
                                                  > > > **The Advertising Group of
                                                  > > > Viewpoint Corporation (Nasdaq: VWPT)**
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > **W: 212.201.0856
                                                  > > > M: 917.214.0551**
                                                  > > > *rmolchon@...
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > 498 7th Avenue
                                                  > > > New York, New York 10018
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                                                  > > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
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                                                  > > > ------------------------------
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                                                  > > >
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                                                  "scrumdevelopment<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scrumdevelopment>"
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                                                  > > >
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                                                  > > ------------------------------
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                                                  > >
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                                                  > > - Visit your group
                                                  "scrumdevelopment<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scrumdevelopment>"
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                                                  > > ------------------------------
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                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                • David A Barrett
                                                  I find it most expedient to get updates to the Sprint Backlog at the end of the Daily Scrum. We do the usual; around the table with what you did, what you re
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Feb 9, 2006
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                                                    I find it most expedient to get updates to the Sprint Backlog at the end of
                                                    the Daily Scrum.

                                                    We do the usual; around the table with what you did, what you're planning,
                                                    and impediments. Then, after that, I take a minute to go down the burndown
                                                    chart and get new numbers. Sometimes, developing the updated estimate for
                                                    a task becomes a group effort, so I see some extra value in doing this as
                                                    part of the Daily Scrum.

                                                    After the meeting, I update the Burndown Chart, print it and post it on the
                                                    wall in the team area. The chart is printed in colour, and we have
                                                    developed a colour coding scheme to identify the status of each task. For
                                                    instance, task progressing as planned are in green, ones that are completed
                                                    are in blue, ones that are in danger of slipping are in yellow and ones
                                                    that have been dropped, failed or in some other way gone off the rails are
                                                    in red.


                                                    Dave Barrett,
                                                    Lawyers' Professional Indemnity Company
                                                  • Hubert Smits
                                                    Hi Victor, I think we fully agree on everything, let me reply to you in your message below. Thanks for clarifying this. --Hubert ... No, pet projects are not
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Feb 9, 2006
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                                                      Hi Victor,

                                                      I think we fully agree on everything, let me reply to you in your
                                                      message below. Thanks for clarifying this.

                                                      --Hubert

                                                      On 2/9/06, Victor Szalvay <victor@...> wrote:
                                                      > Hubert,
                                                      > This may be a tangential point, but I think it's still worth
                                                      > exploring. From your statement here I'm not sure if you are OK with
                                                      > people doing pet projects or merely doing some socratic questioning :)
                                                      > but I would find "pet projects" to be a big problem, whether or not
                                                      > the sprint goals are met.

                                                      No, pet projects are not good. Work on the backlog is never a pet
                                                      (well, developers can like/love the work), and the work we do in our
                                                      'hackatons' is not really a pet, it is related to the product, but
                                                      enables developers to explore roads that the product owner hasn't
                                                      approved. For us that works, but it doesn't have to work everywhere.

                                                      > First, if the developers are just adding pet features to the system on
                                                      > their own they are shouldering the decision making and risk management
                                                      > for the product owner. Those "pet features" added will forever need
                                                      > to be maintained in the code base at the expense of the product owner
                                                      > who never really wanted the features to begin with. This happened to
                                                      > me once on a project so I (as PO) asked the team to remove those
                                                      > features the following sprint.

                                                      Fully agree!

                                                      > Also, the team seems to be buffering their capacity in anticipation of
                                                      > doing pet projects, taking on favors from others, etc. Again, scrum
                                                      > is all about full transparency and honesty--this will damage the
                                                      > team's relationship with the PO who will feel the team hid important
                                                      > information about their capacity.

                                                      Fully agree, somehow I must have raised an impression of allowing pet
                                                      projects to grow into products, which was never the intention. Sorry
                                                      for the confusion.

                                                      > Maybe I read this incorrectly, but I just wanted to clarify.
                                                      >
                                                      > -- Victor Szalvay
                                                      > Danube Technologies, Inc.
                                                      > http://www.danube.com
                                                      >
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