Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: Is a QA Engineer necessary on a small team?

Expand Messages
  • Boris Gloger
    I do not want to argue :)) What I would like to add -- Scrum Master is the QA Person 1.) QA is responsible for processes and engineering quality standards 2.)
    Message 1 of 42 , Feb 2, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      I do not want to argue :)) What I would like to add -- 

      Scrum Master is the QA Person

      1.) QA  is responsible for processes and engineering quality standards
      2.) Scrum Master is responsible for process and meeting  engineering quality standard
      3.) So the Scrum Master is the QA person.

       q.e.d

      Boris Gloger
      www.sprint-it.de
      www.scrumeducation.com



      On 02.02.2006, at 15:00, Victor Szalvay wrote:

      Boris and Steve,

      I respectfully disagree with you two on this :)

      I agree that making QA/test the responsibility of a single individual
      is wrong.  The goal is cross-functional team members with equal
      responsibility for making sure the product is of high quality.

      However, that starts with cross-functionality at the team level.
      Having a QA/test person on team is vital to sparking the rest of the
      team to start thinking about quality issues, learning what makes a
      meaningful test, and expanding the team's ability to do more types of
      testing within the sprint.

      I'm thinking of Ken's CSM course slide on the definition of done and
      the concentric circles showing the scrum team steadily enveloping more
      and more of what is necessary get a product to production.  Having a
      QA team member is important if the team is going to learn to expand
      its definition of done in that fashion.

      -- Victor Szalvay

      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Boris Gloger <boris@...> wrote:
      >
      > I second Gordons remarks. A QA person might help on an enterprise 
      > level but not on a team level. Here you need people who working with 
      > the team doing TESTs build the testing frameworks and and and.
      >
      > Please have in mind: Responsible for Quality is:
      >
      > The Team  - product level
      > The Teams - on multi project level
      > The Development Manager or Head of Development on Department Level
      > The CTO on Enterprise Level.
      >
      > --- Boris
      >
      > On 02.02.2006, at 13:20, Steven Gordon wrote:
      >
      > > I respectfully disagree.  What you need is a versatile person who 
      > > can work as a developer and in the process teach your developers 
      > > what they all need to know and do to be responsible for quality as 
      > > a team.
      > >
      > > Making any aspect of software development the responsibility of 
      > > just one person makes the team less agile.  That includes:
      > > - Quality
      > > - Understanding requirements
      > > - Testing
      > > - Automation of testing
      > > - Automation of continuous integration
      > > - And even, the DBA work
      > >
      > > On-the-job cross-training is the way to go.
      > >
      > > Steven Gordon
      > >
      > >
      > > On 2/2/06, Dave Churchville <dchurchv@...> wrote:
      > > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Obone Kanobe
      > > <obone_kanobe@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Hi All,
      > > > I currently lead a small team of 7 developers and one dba. We work
      > > on small to enterprise size applications using J2EE and PHP.  I would
      > > like to hire a QA engineer to join the team. However, my boss told me
      > > that he thinks its better for me to get an additional developer than a
      > > QA engineer. He believes that rather than hiring a QA engineer, I and
      > > my developers should be  responsibilities for all QA activities.
      > > >
      > > > I was wondering what you all think about this subject?
      > > > Also, if you agree with me, then any pointers on how to make my case
      > > to the boss will be most apreciated.
      > >
      > > Hmmm...just posted a blog entry around this topic.  You really, really
      > > want to have someone with a pure QA/testing mindset who isn't a
      > > developer.  If there are other people in the company that can do this,
      > > great, otherwise I'd go with a versatile QA analyst (maybe who can
      > > write automated tests, do business analysis, write specs, or something
      > > else).
      > >
      > > The article:
      > > http://www.extremeplanner.com/blog/2006/02/is-qa-redundant-for-
      > > agile-software.html
      > >
      > >
      > > --Dave
      > >
      > > Dave Churchville
      > > ExtremePlanner Software
      > > http://www.extremeplanner.com
      > >
      > >
      > > To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
      > > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-
      > > unsubscribe@...
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > SPONSORED LINKS
      > > Scrum
      > >
      > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
      > >
      > >  Visit your group "scrumdevelopment" on the web.
      > >
      > >  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > >  scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > >
      > >  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      > >
      > >
      >






      To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...




      SPONSORED LINKS
      Scrum


      YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS





    • David H.
      ... I know :) But that is exactly my point. When all of the people refuse to work together, customer, business unit, analysis, the quality of the product will
      Message 42 of 42 , Feb 7, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        Steven Gordon wrote:
        > On 2/7/06, David H. <dmalloc@...> wrote:
        >> I do agree that people need to realise that most quality issues originate
        >> much
        >> higher up. Most of the time when the requirements are gathered.
        >
        >
        > David,
        >
        > In Scrum, when are the requirements "gathered"? Who participates? It's not
        > like a waterfall process where we can go blame some analyst.
        >
        I know :)
        But that is exactly my point. When all of the people refuse to work together,
        customer, business unit, analysis, the quality of the product will suffer.
        Often enough some software department has to deal with developing software for
        a domain they know nothing about. Yet there is no insider they are allowed to
        talk to. Now what will that do to Quality ?

        > It would be a process smell if the team depended on the QA person to ask the
        > difficult questions while all the developers just sat there daydreaming
        > about how they were going to code it.
        >
        Actually I was more thinking that the QA person is there to kick off the
        important act of questioning yourself. I do look at this from a more
        philosophical point of view than a technical one. Everyone can be the QA
        person in a team and I hope that all of us have a QA person in us. I know that
        I do QA aspects whenever I am Scrum Master for a project. However it helps
        when someone steps up and states. "Yepp I will have an eye on it, maybe more
        so than others"

        > If the developers cannot ask the right questions, the solution is not to
        > depend on somebody else to ask them, but to integrate somebody into the
        > team who can show them how.

        Yes, see above, I do believe we agree here.

        > Integrating that person into the team would
        > mean they do not do all the QA work and they do not just do QA work. If you
        > do not integrate that person, then the cross-training will be much less
        > effective.
        >
        Once more, yes, yes, yes :)

        -d
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.