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RE: [scrumdevelopment] ScrumMaster same as development manager?

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  • Steven Ropa
    ... To the contrary, this is good. I am starting to see what you are referring to. I can honestly say that I have a team of people that believe
    Message 1 of 34 , Jan 4, 2006
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      >-----Original Message-----
      >From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      >[mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Yuri Gadow
      >Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2006 12:24 PM
      >To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] ScrumMaster same as
      >development manager?
      >Steven Ropa wrote:
      >> I am still not understanding what potential the group might not be
      >> utilizing, though. Can someone maybe list some of the things the
      >> group might be doing differently if I were only a Scrum
      >Master and not
      >> a manager, or if we had a different team member act as scrum master?
      >> I want to look and see if maybe I'm just missing it. After all, I
      >> need to Inspect and Adapt, right?
      >Basically, I am just thinking of the team's "maximum
      >potential", that is, the best possible culmination of all
      >their individual strengths.
      >What I'm suggesting is that a manager's presence as an
      >integral part of the Scrum may limit that via the team
      >members' assumptions, fears, or hopes about the image they
      >project to "The One Who Controls Salary", or by any ingrained
      >habit to, perhaps unconsciously, follow the leader.
      >This may be exacerbated by me making direct suggestions,
      >because a percentage of people on just about any team will
      >feel uncomfortable telling me to take my idea and shove it,
      >since I have so much "authority". On the other hand, a CSM has
      >no authority and their suggestions can be discussed as would
      >any peer's.
      >As a manager outside the process, I can suggest, coach, or
      >whatever, quite a bit - with the personal comfort factor of
      >knowing that the Scrum process will generally tend to turn up
      >those things that I do that don't fully build on the team
      >members' strengths as being impediments - because the CSM's
      >are specifically selected for being people who are willing to
      >get in my face and tell me I'm wrong, evil, and must be
      >stopped. Without that separation, it would be me directly
      >interacting with those few people who are great software
      >developers, but just don't feel comfortable telling me,
      >personally, where to step off, leading to the Heisenberging of
      >team, and possibly the only thing that I really
      >fear: failure without understanding.
      >I'm still struggling to figure this out and articulate it to
      >myself, never mind others. So my apologies for lack of sense
      >on this thread.
      To the contrary, this is good. I am starting to see what you are
      referring to. I can honestly say that I have a team of people that
      believe wholeheartedly in telling me to Shove It! Maybe I'm just lucky.
      I will say, however, that I believe very strongly in Servant Leadership,
      which means I work for the team, not vice versa. I do hold the
      institutional authority, but I work very hard to keep it visible that I
      use that authority only to better their lives. Since I am the only CSM
      in this office, and probably couldn't get the money to get another one
      certified(VP to Steve:"why do we need two? That's what we hired you
      for.") I need to provide the CSM functionality. I spend a lot of energy
      testing just the items you mentioned above though, so I can comfortably
      say, at least for now, that the team is realizing their full potential,
      and using me as a tool to keep things smooth and happy. I will of
      course continue to Inspect and Adapt, though.


    • Boris Gloger
      Hi Tamara, I assume that this email is outdated but siting in an airplane is sometimes boring :) ... I do not believe that this is a general consensus. i can
      Message 34 of 34 , Jan 6, 2006
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        Hi Tamara,

        I assume that this email is outdated but siting in an airplane is sometimes boring :)

        On 05.01.2006, at 19:45, Tamara Sulaiman wrote:

        Oh, wait, there’s a general consensus that the project manager should not be the scrum master? 

        I do not believe that this is a general consensus. i can only say that the project manager should not be the Scrum Master --- and given by your definition, regardless if this is the right definition: You proofed that by yourself:

         Project Manager:  Responsible for budgets, reporting metrics, and command and control type areas.

        No -- that is the misleaded interpretation of everybody and starts always unnecessary discussions if a good project manager would be a good Scrum Master. 

        Scrum says that the Product Owner is 

        a) responsible for budgets & ROI - he drives the project from a business point of view
        b) He is in charge of aligning the organization to the project an vice versa. 
        c) He works with the team to get the results the organization wants to have

        btw - he can be absolutely comand and control driven. Would be a nice discussion what will happens if you have a comand and control product owner. Anyway, this would have been no impact because you do have a Scrum master who protects the team and makes sure that the Product Owner gets the information he needs.

        This role may or may not be needed for a scrum team depending on the environment, customer, etc.

        this role is essential - an I hope you get now that the Project Manager must become the Product Owner and Not the SCRUM master in case he is like you described above. 

        This role can easily be combined with the scrum master role, when team members do not report directly to the PM, for budget and schedule reporting responsibilities.

        And that is something that is abolutely nonsense - why do we have a legislature, a executive and a jurisdicative? We need someone who makes the rules: The product owner, who executes: the team and someone who controls both: the Scrum Master. And you do very well in not combining them into one person. 

        (Note: this is particularly applicable to ‘matrixed’ corporate environments.)  Yes, there is overlap in the PM role with the impediment removing, and external communication responsibilities with a scrum master role.  Every scrum project that I’ve been on had a scrum/project manager (that person wasn’t always me!

        I know this kind of set up, but why can you not be the Scrum Master for another team, and the product owner for your team? 

        We have set up our whole organization - I am part of the first line management or co-founder, in the way that I am the Product Owner and Scrum Coach for company but I installed a Scrum master ,my One Second liner, who will install the processes and I have one Product Owner, my second second liner: she will run the project that we get from outside as product owner. And every team gets his own Scrum Master coached by my seond liner.

        So I try to live that we do not get shared responsibilities within one person, but everybody has multiple roles.

        Development Manager = Resource Manager – team members report to this person.  IMHO, this is a no-no combing this role with the scrum master role. Defeats the purpose of having self organizing teams.

        Well, he coud become a scrum master, because he needs to make sure that he will have the resources available for the team. But he does not manage this team or the resources. But he would be the person with the right skills for a scrum master, right?

        Product Manger = can easily be a product owner. Team does not report directly to the product manager.  I’m neutral on the aspect of combining the scrum master with product manager role. Has anyone tried combining both the product downer and scrum master roles?  (this is different than having a scrum master assist the product owner with managing the product backlog....)


        Again we are in the conflicting roles. Do not do that. And yes a product manager would be the right product owner if he is inside the company. 

        Engineering Manager = Resource Manager.  Team members report directly to this person.  Please see above under development manager for my opinion on combining this role with scrum master role!


        Cancel that role or make a Scrum Master from him.

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