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RE: [scrumdevelopment] Re: ScrumMaster same as development manager?

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  • Mike Dwyer
    Again folks, combine the two roles making managers scrum masters. To do this organize the daily scrum meeting so that the team (not the scrum master) updates
    Message 1 of 34 , Jan 3, 2006
      Again folks, combine the two roles making managers scrum masters. To do
      this organize the daily scrum meeting so that the team (not the scrum
      master) updates the manager after the daily meeting. If the manager has
      more than one team working then the team member - representative - from each
      team all meet with the manager at the same time.

      This may sound like a scrum of scrum meetings. - it is. But more importantly
      it starts to turn over the responsiblilty of a scrum master - 'to plow the
      road' of impediments.

      The scrum master role shifts from driving the scrum process to infusing the
      core of scrum - close communication - into the organization. This allows
      the SM to become a force multiplier.

      It works, too. 6 managers, 2 directors, 3 senior directors, a CIO and a
      COO are now in the loop - every day. The managers have no choice about the
      daily meeting and communicating what happened as their phones start ringing.

      Michael F. Dwyer

      "Planning constantly peers into the future for indications as to where a
      solution may emerge."
      "A Plan is a complex situation, adapting to an emerging solution."

      -----Original Message-----
      From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of news.gmane.org
      Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 1:05 PM
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: ScrumMaster same as development manager?

      mpkirby@... wrote:
      > My experience is similar to Tamara's. We did try to Scrummaster/Manager
      thing and it
      > really didn´t work that well.
      > It would seem to me that in the beginning, the best people to have as
      scrum master would
      > be opinion leaders on the team. That may or may not be the manager. And
      since one of
      > the principle points behind scrum is empowering the team, having the
      manager serve in that
      > capacity tends to associate scrum with a hierarchical command-and-control
      > Longer term (once scrum is established), I would think it's the
      individuals that care the most
      > about the entire deliverable, those with the best personal relationship
      with the project
      > manager. Perhaps QA people.
      > Regarding the burndown, we've tried to take the attitude that the team
      owns the burndown,
      > because the team is responsible for the deliverable. Not any specific
      > Mike

      Hi Mike and everyone else on this thread

      Have you found that if the Scrum master is not the development manager,
      then the development manager has more time to either:
      (i) do development !
      (ii) have more people reporting to him/her as line manager?

      Your experience in this would be interesting



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    • Boris Gloger
      Hi Tamara, I assume that this email is outdated but siting in an airplane is sometimes boring :) ... I do not believe that this is a general consensus. i can
      Message 34 of 34 , Jan 6, 2006
        Hi Tamara,

        I assume that this email is outdated but siting in an airplane is sometimes boring :)

        On 05.01.2006, at 19:45, Tamara Sulaiman wrote:

        Oh, wait, there’s a general consensus that the project manager should not be the scrum master? 

        I do not believe that this is a general consensus. i can only say that the project manager should not be the Scrum Master --- and given by your definition, regardless if this is the right definition: You proofed that by yourself:

         Project Manager:  Responsible for budgets, reporting metrics, and command and control type areas.

        No -- that is the misleaded interpretation of everybody and starts always unnecessary discussions if a good project manager would be a good Scrum Master. 

        Scrum says that the Product Owner is 

        a) responsible for budgets & ROI - he drives the project from a business point of view
        b) He is in charge of aligning the organization to the project an vice versa. 
        c) He works with the team to get the results the organization wants to have

        btw - he can be absolutely comand and control driven. Would be a nice discussion what will happens if you have a comand and control product owner. Anyway, this would have been no impact because you do have a Scrum master who protects the team and makes sure that the Product Owner gets the information he needs.

        This role may or may not be needed for a scrum team depending on the environment, customer, etc.

        this role is essential - an I hope you get now that the Project Manager must become the Product Owner and Not the SCRUM master in case he is like you described above. 

        This role can easily be combined with the scrum master role, when team members do not report directly to the PM, for budget and schedule reporting responsibilities.

        And that is something that is abolutely nonsense - why do we have a legislature, a executive and a jurisdicative? We need someone who makes the rules: The product owner, who executes: the team and someone who controls both: the Scrum Master. And you do very well in not combining them into one person. 

        (Note: this is particularly applicable to ‘matrixed’ corporate environments.)  Yes, there is overlap in the PM role with the impediment removing, and external communication responsibilities with a scrum master role.  Every scrum project that I’ve been on had a scrum/project manager (that person wasn’t always me!

        I know this kind of set up, but why can you not be the Scrum Master for another team, and the product owner for your team? 

        We have set up our whole organization - I am part of the first line management or co-founder, in the way that I am the Product Owner and Scrum Coach for company but I installed a Scrum master ,my One Second liner, who will install the processes and I have one Product Owner, my second second liner: she will run the project that we get from outside as product owner. And every team gets his own Scrum Master coached by my seond liner.

        So I try to live that we do not get shared responsibilities within one person, but everybody has multiple roles.

        Development Manager = Resource Manager – team members report to this person.  IMHO, this is a no-no combing this role with the scrum master role. Defeats the purpose of having self organizing teams.

        Well, he coud become a scrum master, because he needs to make sure that he will have the resources available for the team. But he does not manage this team or the resources. But he would be the person with the right skills for a scrum master, right?

        Product Manger = can easily be a product owner. Team does not report directly to the product manager.  I’m neutral on the aspect of combining the scrum master with product manager role. Has anyone tried combining both the product downer and scrum master roles?  (this is different than having a scrum master assist the product owner with managing the product backlog....)


        Again we are in the conflicting roles. Do not do that. And yes a product manager would be the right product owner if he is inside the company. 

        Engineering Manager = Resource Manager.  Team members report directly to this person.  Please see above under development manager for my opinion on combining this role with scrum master role!


        Cancel that role or make a Scrum Master from him.

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