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RE: [scrumdevelopment] ScrumMaster same as development manager?

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  • mpkirby@frontiernet.net
    My experience is similar to Tamara s. We did try to Scrummaster/Manager thing and it really didn´t work that well. It would seem to me that in the beginning,
    Message 1 of 34 , Jan 3, 2006
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      My experience is similar to Tamara's. We did try to Scrummaster/Manager thing and it
      really didn´t work that well.

      It would seem to me that in the beginning, the best people to have as scrum master would
      be opinion leaders on the team. That may or may not be the manager. And since one of
      the principle points behind scrum is empowering the team, having the manager serve in that
      capacity tends to associate scrum with a hierarchical command-and-control structure.

      Longer term (once scrum is established), I would think it's the individuals that care the most
      about the entire deliverable, those with the best personal relationship with the project
      manager. Perhaps QA people.

      Regarding the burndown, we've tried to take the attitude that the team owns the burndown,
      because the team is responsible for the deliverable. Not any specific individual.

      Mike


      On 2 Jan 2006 at 22:20, Molchon, Robert wrote:

      >
      > In regards to your first point, what person would you sugest for the
      > Scrum Master? Should it be
      > someone who previously acted as a Project Manager or Product
      > Manager? Can the scrum
      > master be someone who is contributing code to the project? can
      > someone else on the team other
      > than the S.M. own the burndown charts, etc?
      >
      > thanks
      > Rob
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Tamara
      > Sulaiman
      > Sent: Mon 1/2/2006 5:54 PM
      > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] ScrumMaster same as development
      > manager?
      >
      >
      > I would be very uncomfortable with having the development manager
      > as
      > the scrum master in the situation described below for 2 reasons:
      >
      > 1. The scrum master has no real authority. The scrum master's role
      > is
      > to guide the team on process, protect the team from outside
      > interference (like from dev managers...) and act as point of
      > contact
      > for outside communications. It would be difficult, if not
      > impossible,
      > for the team to separate the dev master role (managing direct
      > reports)
      > and the scrum master role. Having a dev manager act as scrum
      > master
      > seems to be very 'unscrum' to me.
      >
      > 2. Being scrum master for 20 projects would take a super human
      > effort to give them all the level of commitment and support for 20
      > teams. How would you actually attend 20 daily stand ups? How would
      > you be able to effectively remove impediments for 20 different
      > teams?
      > I think it would be ugly. Very ugly. I am very surprised to hear
      > that
      > someone who has actually had experience as a scrum master would
      > even
      > suggest this.
      >
      > My 2 cents, anyway.
      >
      >
      >
      > Tamara
      >
      >
      >
      > Message: 6
      > Date: Sun, 01 Jan 2006 09:20:57 -0000
      > From: "roguedog98" <roguedog98@...>
      > Subject: Re: ScrumMaster same as development manager?
      >
      > Hey Mike,
      >
      > Hmm... mostly correct deductions - the fact that we are involved
      > in
      > many projects and our senior engineers tend to be interrupt driven.
      > We
      > work on about 20 projects whose average time to complete is about
      > 2-3
      > months.
      >
      > The 5 people building powerpoints.. well.. not so on target. I
      > think
      > those are product managers not project managers.
      >
      > So.. a bit more information. I'm a project manager who has gotten
      > SM
      > certified but hasn't had an opportunity to use it. We've hired a
      > new
      > dev manager who has done scrum before. He's all fired up to
      > convert
      > us all to agile/scrum.
      >
      > To be truthful, I'm a bit sceptical since he's only been there for
      > 2
      > weeks and hasn't really been part of our current environment or
      > even
      > part of a project.. or to be truthful seen the team in it's
      > "normal"
      > life since it's been the holidays.
      >
      > I'm happy he wants to go scrum since I happen to have studied it.
      > I'm
      > sceptical that he's proposing this somewhat drastic change with
      > little
      > information and that he wants to be the scrum master for all
      > projects
      > as opposed to the project managers.
      >
      > But aside from all that, I wanted to ask the group if there is
      > some
      > sort of conflict or "unscrumness", if you will, of him taking on
      > this
      > role when he also has to manage about 25 developers?
      >
      > Maybe it's ok but.. I don't know since I've only studied scrum and
      > am
      > in no way an experienced scrum master. And, yes, I'm kinda
      > disappointed I don't get to use what I learned but I was interested
      > in
      > learning if this crossing of roles is ok in the scrum world or
      > perhaps
      > under certain conditions since nothing is absolute. And if our
      > environment meets those conditions and if it's good for the
      > company,
      > then awesome.
      >
      > Sorry Mike, I can't really answer your question about expectations.
      > I
      > can tell you my hopes for scrum.. and that's ... more
      > accountability,
      > more self management, more cross team communication, more projects
      > delivered on time... Basically, the typical list from a project
      > manager. I can't speak for the new dev mgr's expectation but I
      > think
      > it's the same...???
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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      ---
      mpkirby@...
    • Boris Gloger
      Hi Tamara, I assume that this email is outdated but siting in an airplane is sometimes boring :) ... I do not believe that this is a general consensus. i can
      Message 34 of 34 , Jan 6, 2006
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        Hi Tamara,

        I assume that this email is outdated but siting in an airplane is sometimes boring :)


        On 05.01.2006, at 19:45, Tamara Sulaiman wrote:

        Oh, wait, there’s a general consensus that the project manager should not be the scrum master? 


        I do not believe that this is a general consensus. i can only say that the project manager should not be the Scrum Master --- and given by your definition, regardless if this is the right definition: You proofed that by yourself:

         Project Manager:  Responsible for budgets, reporting metrics, and command and control type areas.

        No -- that is the misleaded interpretation of everybody and starts always unnecessary discussions if a good project manager would be a good Scrum Master. 

        Scrum says that the Product Owner is 

        a) responsible for budgets & ROI - he drives the project from a business point of view
        b) He is in charge of aligning the organization to the project an vice versa. 
        c) He works with the team to get the results the organization wants to have

        btw - he can be absolutely comand and control driven. Would be a nice discussion what will happens if you have a comand and control product owner. Anyway, this would have been no impact because you do have a Scrum master who protects the team and makes sure that the Product Owner gets the information he needs.

        This role may or may not be needed for a scrum team depending on the environment, customer, etc.


        this role is essential - an I hope you get now that the Project Manager must become the Product Owner and Not the SCRUM master in case he is like you described above. 

        This role can easily be combined with the scrum master role, when team members do not report directly to the PM, for budget and schedule reporting responsibilities.

        And that is something that is abolutely nonsense - why do we have a legislature, a executive and a jurisdicative? We need someone who makes the rules: The product owner, who executes: the team and someone who controls both: the Scrum Master. And you do very well in not combining them into one person. 

        (Note: this is particularly applicable to ‘matrixed’ corporate environments.)  Yes, there is overlap in the PM role with the impediment removing, and external communication responsibilities with a scrum master role.  Every scrum project that I’ve been on had a scrum/project manager (that person wasn’t always me!

        I know this kind of set up, but why can you not be the Scrum Master for another team, and the product owner for your team? 

        We have set up our whole organization - I am part of the first line management or co-founder, in the way that I am the Product Owner and Scrum Coach for company but I installed a Scrum master ,my One Second liner, who will install the processes and I have one Product Owner, my second second liner: she will run the project that we get from outside as product owner. And every team gets his own Scrum Master coached by my seond liner.

        So I try to live that we do not get shared responsibilities within one person, but everybody has multiple roles.


        Development Manager = Resource Manager – team members report to this person.  IMHO, this is a no-no combing this role with the scrum master role. Defeats the purpose of having self organizing teams.


        Well, he coud become a scrum master, because he needs to make sure that he will have the resources available for the team. But he does not manage this team or the resources. But he would be the person with the right skills for a scrum master, right?

        Product Manger = can easily be a product owner. Team does not report directly to the product manager.  I’m neutral on the aspect of combining the scrum master with product manager role. Has anyone tried combining both the product downer and scrum master roles?  (this is different than having a scrum master assist the product owner with managing the product backlog....)

         

        Again we are in the conflicting roles. Do not do that. And yes a product manager would be the right product owner if he is inside the company. 

        Engineering Manager = Resource Manager.  Team members report directly to this person.  Please see above under development manager for my opinion on combining this role with scrum master role!

         

        Cancel that role or make a Scrum Master from him.

        Boris
        www.scrumeducation.com
        www.sprint-it.com
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