Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: ScrumMaster same as development manager?

Expand Messages
  • Sanjeev
    Happy new year to you too, Ron - I did toy with the idea of becoming scrum master for all the (16 or so) projects we have going on, but came to the conclusion
    Message 1 of 34 , Jan 1, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      Happy new year to you too, Ron - I did toy with the idea of becoming scrum master for all the (16 or so) projects we have going on, but came to the conclusion that:
      1. It may not be 'right' - A scrum master's role is to remove impediments.  At a structural level, I think it is important to get the diversity of resolutions from multiple people, rather than a monoculture.
      2. It may not be effective - part of my job, and I am sure of many other managers is to look at the wider process issues and other 'manager stuff', that takes up so much time, but is expected by the organization.
      3. The clincher - I wanted to build a second rung of converts quickly.

      I expect a lot of challenges going forward, but whoever said this was easy?  One tool I have found useful in bringing people on board is Peter Senge's Commitment <-> Apathy model, as outlined in the fifth fiscipline.  Everyone wants to be committed - it starts them thinking, at least.


      On 1/1/06, Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
      Happy new year, Sanjeev ...

      On Sunday, January 1, 2006, at 5:54:50 AM, Sanjeev wrote:

      > Hmmm, typically in in-house IT departments, we always seem to have more
      > projects at one go, than we would like, or even hope to service
      > effectively.  What this means is that all projects get delayed, deadlines
      > are missed and no one is happy, including the development team!  Scrum can
      > help even more than you think.  What I recommend is that you take up only as
      > many concurrent projects that you can slot your team for (if it is possible
      > to manage expectations).  The beauty of the product backlog means that you
      > will deliver the highest value, highest risk 'stories' first, which
      > *may*allow you to move from one project to another after a couple of
      > sprints.

      I share this concern quite deeply. To have a team working on more
      than one project at a time is disadvantageous in most every
      situation, and in many ways:

        * it reflects a failure to prioritize
        * at least some "wrong" things are clearly being worked on;
        * it is evidence that development and its customers are not
          communicating effectively;
      and worst of all
        * it slows return on investment for EVERY project.

      > So, rather than concurrently working on 10 different projects, you will be
      > able to get your team focussed on one or two important things, get those out
      > of the way, and into production and move on to the next projects on the
      > list.  I am moving to this kind of approach in the Bank where I work.  It
      > works!  Users are reasonable if given the entire picture, in a
      > non-threatening manner and are happy that 2 months later their project will
      > get undivided attention, rather than some hodge-podge being done right away.

      Excellent. I would expect this to become more true as the
      organization builds a reputation for keeping its promises.

      > I am, however, a bit skeptical about one person being the scrum master for
      > 20 projects simultaneously.

      I am as well. However, it seems to me that there could be some
      reasons and advantages, such as

        * He'll learn more quickly what's really going on;
        * He'll get a chance to observe all the teams in action;
        * He can choreograph all the dev managers, leads, whatever
          they are, to common actions to improve things;
        * He will see the chaos that results from having big-N projects.

      That said, over the longer term, it's not ideal.

      I've not seen a good solution to the multi-team, multi-level manager
      / lead / scrummaster issue ... maybe someone else has something they
      really like.

      Ron Jeffries
      Testing quality into a program is like spinning straw into gold.
        -- George Cameron.

      To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...



    • Boris Gloger
      Hi Tamara, I assume that this email is outdated but siting in an airplane is sometimes boring :) ... I do not believe that this is a general consensus. i can
      Message 34 of 34 , Jan 6, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Tamara,

        I assume that this email is outdated but siting in an airplane is sometimes boring :)

        On 05.01.2006, at 19:45, Tamara Sulaiman wrote:

        Oh, wait, there’s a general consensus that the project manager should not be the scrum master? 

        I do not believe that this is a general consensus. i can only say that the project manager should not be the Scrum Master --- and given by your definition, regardless if this is the right definition: You proofed that by yourself:

         Project Manager:  Responsible for budgets, reporting metrics, and command and control type areas.

        No -- that is the misleaded interpretation of everybody and starts always unnecessary discussions if a good project manager would be a good Scrum Master. 

        Scrum says that the Product Owner is 

        a) responsible for budgets & ROI - he drives the project from a business point of view
        b) He is in charge of aligning the organization to the project an vice versa. 
        c) He works with the team to get the results the organization wants to have

        btw - he can be absolutely comand and control driven. Would be a nice discussion what will happens if you have a comand and control product owner. Anyway, this would have been no impact because you do have a Scrum master who protects the team and makes sure that the Product Owner gets the information he needs.

        This role may or may not be needed for a scrum team depending on the environment, customer, etc.

        this role is essential - an I hope you get now that the Project Manager must become the Product Owner and Not the SCRUM master in case he is like you described above. 

        This role can easily be combined with the scrum master role, when team members do not report directly to the PM, for budget and schedule reporting responsibilities.

        And that is something that is abolutely nonsense - why do we have a legislature, a executive and a jurisdicative? We need someone who makes the rules: The product owner, who executes: the team and someone who controls both: the Scrum Master. And you do very well in not combining them into one person. 

        (Note: this is particularly applicable to ‘matrixed’ corporate environments.)  Yes, there is overlap in the PM role with the impediment removing, and external communication responsibilities with a scrum master role.  Every scrum project that I’ve been on had a scrum/project manager (that person wasn’t always me!

        I know this kind of set up, but why can you not be the Scrum Master for another team, and the product owner for your team? 

        We have set up our whole organization - I am part of the first line management or co-founder, in the way that I am the Product Owner and Scrum Coach for company but I installed a Scrum master ,my One Second liner, who will install the processes and I have one Product Owner, my second second liner: she will run the project that we get from outside as product owner. And every team gets his own Scrum Master coached by my seond liner.

        So I try to live that we do not get shared responsibilities within one person, but everybody has multiple roles.

        Development Manager = Resource Manager – team members report to this person.  IMHO, this is a no-no combing this role with the scrum master role. Defeats the purpose of having self organizing teams.

        Well, he coud become a scrum master, because he needs to make sure that he will have the resources available for the team. But he does not manage this team or the resources. But he would be the person with the right skills for a scrum master, right?

        Product Manger = can easily be a product owner. Team does not report directly to the product manager.  I’m neutral on the aspect of combining the scrum master with product manager role. Has anyone tried combining both the product downer and scrum master roles?  (this is different than having a scrum master assist the product owner with managing the product backlog....)


        Again we are in the conflicting roles. Do not do that. And yes a product manager would be the right product owner if he is inside the company. 

        Engineering Manager = Resource Manager.  Team members report directly to this person.  Please see above under development manager for my opinion on combining this role with scrum master role!


        Cancel that role or make a Scrum Master from him.

      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.