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Re: ScrumMaster same as development manager?

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  • roguedog98
    Hey Mike, Hmm... mostly correct deductions - the fact that we are involved in many projects and our senior engineers tend to be interrupt driven. We work on
    Message 1 of 34 , Jan 1, 2006
      Hey Mike,

      Hmm... mostly correct deductions - the fact that we are involved in
      many projects and our senior engineers tend to be interrupt driven. We
      work on about 20 projects whose average time to complete is about 2-3

      The 5 people building powerpoints.. well.. not so on target. I think
      those are product managers not project managers.

      So.. a bit more information. I'm a project manager who has gotten SM
      certified but hasn't had an opportunity to use it. We've hired a new
      dev manager who has done scrum before. He's all fired up to convert
      us all to agile/scrum.

      To be truthful, I'm a bit sceptical since he's only been there for 2
      weeks and hasn't really been part of our current environment or even
      part of a project.. or to be truthful seen the team in it's "normal"
      life since it's been the holidays.

      I'm happy he wants to go scrum since I happen to have studied it. I'm
      sceptical that he's proposing this somewhat drastic change with little
      information and that he wants to be the scrum master for all projects
      as opposed to the project managers.

      But aside from all that, I wanted to ask the group if there is some
      sort of conflict or "unscrumness", if you will, of him taking on this
      role when he also has to manage about 25 developers?

      Maybe it's ok but.. I don't know since I've only studied scrum and am
      in no way an experienced scrum master. And, yes, I'm kinda
      disappointed I don't get to use what I learned but I was interested in
      learning if this crossing of roles is ok in the scrum world or perhaps
      under certain conditions since nothing is absolute. And if our
      environment meets those conditions and if it's good for the company,
      then awesome.

      Sorry Mike, I can't really answer your question about expectations. I
      can tell you my hopes for scrum.. and that's ... more accountability,
      more self management, more cross team communication, more projects
      delivered on time... Basically, the typical list from a project
      manager. I can't speak for the new dev mgr's expectation but I think
      it's the same...???

      --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, "Mike Dwyer"
      <mike.dwyer1@c...> wrote:
      > What you have told me is that there are 70 people working on between
      50 - 75
      > projects and that 5 people have project oversite of teams ranging
      from 1 to
      > n people and that each person is involved in more than one project.
      > So I gather that people are unable to focus due to the interrupts,
      spend a
      > lot of time in meetings asking and answering "where are we?" and
      whom ever
      > in charge is far too busy building powerpoints using data that is at
      least 2
      > weeks old.
      > Now tell me why you think Scrum or Agile can help? (Serious
      question - I
      > need to know what your expectations are.)
      > Michael F. Dwyer
      > "Planning constantly peers into the future for indications as to where a
      > solution may emerge."
      > "A Plan is a complex situation, adapting to an emerging solution."
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of roguedog98
      > Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 12:04 AM
      > To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: ScrumMaster same as development manager?
      > Can you talk about the fine line? My company has never done Scrum
      > before. We have about 50 developers and about 20 systems folks. 5
      > project managers.
      > Can one be a good, effective manager if one is also the scrum master
      > for some 10-15 "projects"?
      > --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Mark Striebeck
      > <mark.striebeck@g...> wrote:
      > >
      > > I've been development manager and scrum master at my last company.
      > It's a
      > > very fine line to walk. But in our case it worked really well. But
      > it was a
      > > fairly small company and team. I.e. we didn't have many political
      > games and
      > > our product manager (aka product owner) was very good in shielding
      > the team
      > > from outsiders too.
      > >
      > > I think one of the most important things was that I've never been
      a very
      > > "directive" manager - even before scrum. If the engineering manager
      > has the
      > > tendency to direct people then it's probably not a good idea.
      > >
      > > MarkS
      > >
      > > On 12/30/05, roguedog98 <roguedog98@y...> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Is it "good" or "bad" that the scrum master is the same person
      as the
      > > > development manager?
      > > >
      > > > Or perhaps.. what are the pros or cons?
      > > >
      > > > Thoughts?
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
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    • Boris Gloger
      Hi Tamara, I assume that this email is outdated but siting in an airplane is sometimes boring :) ... I do not believe that this is a general consensus. i can
      Message 34 of 34 , Jan 6, 2006
        Hi Tamara,

        I assume that this email is outdated but siting in an airplane is sometimes boring :)

        On 05.01.2006, at 19:45, Tamara Sulaiman wrote:

        Oh, wait, there’s a general consensus that the project manager should not be the scrum master? 

        I do not believe that this is a general consensus. i can only say that the project manager should not be the Scrum Master --- and given by your definition, regardless if this is the right definition: You proofed that by yourself:

         Project Manager:  Responsible for budgets, reporting metrics, and command and control type areas.

        No -- that is the misleaded interpretation of everybody and starts always unnecessary discussions if a good project manager would be a good Scrum Master. 

        Scrum says that the Product Owner is 

        a) responsible for budgets & ROI - he drives the project from a business point of view
        b) He is in charge of aligning the organization to the project an vice versa. 
        c) He works with the team to get the results the organization wants to have

        btw - he can be absolutely comand and control driven. Would be a nice discussion what will happens if you have a comand and control product owner. Anyway, this would have been no impact because you do have a Scrum master who protects the team and makes sure that the Product Owner gets the information he needs.

        This role may or may not be needed for a scrum team depending on the environment, customer, etc.

        this role is essential - an I hope you get now that the Project Manager must become the Product Owner and Not the SCRUM master in case he is like you described above. 

        This role can easily be combined with the scrum master role, when team members do not report directly to the PM, for budget and schedule reporting responsibilities.

        And that is something that is abolutely nonsense - why do we have a legislature, a executive and a jurisdicative? We need someone who makes the rules: The product owner, who executes: the team and someone who controls both: the Scrum Master. And you do very well in not combining them into one person. 

        (Note: this is particularly applicable to ‘matrixed’ corporate environments.)  Yes, there is overlap in the PM role with the impediment removing, and external communication responsibilities with a scrum master role.  Every scrum project that I’ve been on had a scrum/project manager (that person wasn’t always me!

        I know this kind of set up, but why can you not be the Scrum Master for another team, and the product owner for your team? 

        We have set up our whole organization - I am part of the first line management or co-founder, in the way that I am the Product Owner and Scrum Coach for company but I installed a Scrum master ,my One Second liner, who will install the processes and I have one Product Owner, my second second liner: she will run the project that we get from outside as product owner. And every team gets his own Scrum Master coached by my seond liner.

        So I try to live that we do not get shared responsibilities within one person, but everybody has multiple roles.

        Development Manager = Resource Manager – team members report to this person.  IMHO, this is a no-no combing this role with the scrum master role. Defeats the purpose of having self organizing teams.

        Well, he coud become a scrum master, because he needs to make sure that he will have the resources available for the team. But he does not manage this team or the resources. But he would be the person with the right skills for a scrum master, right?

        Product Manger = can easily be a product owner. Team does not report directly to the product manager.  I’m neutral on the aspect of combining the scrum master with product manager role. Has anyone tried combining both the product downer and scrum master roles?  (this is different than having a scrum master assist the product owner with managing the product backlog....)


        Again we are in the conflicting roles. Do not do that. And yes a product manager would be the right product owner if he is inside the company. 

        Engineering Manager = Resource Manager.  Team members report directly to this person.  Please see above under development manager for my opinion on combining this role with scrum master role!


        Cancel that role or make a Scrum Master from him.

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