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Re: [scrumdevelopment] (unknown)

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  • Ron Jeffries
    ... I don t think that s consistent with history. Scrum was around before XP, and (historically) does not include technical practices, though current writers
    Message 1 of 28 , Nov 30, 2005
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      On Wednesday, November 30, 2005, at 12:06:29 PM, Ashraf Al Shafaki wrote:

      > With the growing popularity of XP, Scurm has repositioned itself now more
      > towards the project management aspects of software development projects in
      > order to fit itself in the technosphere as a complement to XP rather than a
      > competitor to it. I think this was a wise strategy and will work fine for
      > all parties involved.

      I don't think that's consistent with history.

      Scrum was around before XP, and (historically) does not include
      technical practices, though current writers are discussing them more
      and more.

      XP came after Scrum (an almost inevitable result of Scrum being
      there first) and has always included technical practices. XP also
      includes a planning and management approach which is very much like
      Scrum's, but was actually based on the project management of Jon
      Hopkins.

      Ron Jeffries
      www.XProgramming.com
      What is your dream? And knowing this, what have you
      done to work towards realizing it today? -- Les Brown
    • Mike Beedle
      ... Ron, With all due respct.... what a great piece of misinformation. I bet you were an enemy spy in your previous life :-) !!!! I vividly recall Kent Beck
      Message 2 of 28 , Dec 1, 2005
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        Ron Jeffries wrote:
        > XP came after Scrum (an almost inevitable result of Scrum being
        > there first) and has always included technical practices. XP also
        > includes a planning and management approach which is very much like
        > Scrum's, but was actually based on the project management of Jon
        > Hopkins.

        Ron,

        With all due respct.... what a great piece of misinformation.

        I bet you were an enemy spy in your previous life :-) !!!!

        I vividly recall Kent Beck proudly saying several times:

        I stole the management practices from Scrum and used them in XP
        (He said that loudly enough so that all the participants from
        the Snowbird 2001 could hear him, and they are all witnesses to
        that.)

        I thought it was an honest response, and I have always admired Kent
        for being honest... and for having enough insight and intelligence
        to steal the right thing: Scrum!

        All of us steal for our own use all the good ideas... no shame in
        admitting that, but it is a shame to try to hide that
        acknowledgedment.

        He also said that he didn't quoted any scrum publications because
        at the time there were only websites with Scrum information.

        Now that was almost true. (There was Ken's OOPSLA 96 paper, and
        later there was a paper published in the PLOP proceedings: SCRUM: An
        extension pattern language for hyperproductive software development
        http://jerry.cs.uiuc.edu/~plop/plop98/final_submissions/)

        But Kent, (like Einstein ignoring to acknowledge Mikowski SR and
        Clifford GR), understood the "packaging and branding game" more
        than any of us.... he did package the almost minimal set of
        right things first. (Coplien had a larger and better set earlier!
        Ward Cunningham had captured many of these patterns in Episodes.
        Scrum was a more minimal orthogonal set.... but it was tacit, and
        all of them mostly evolved from what Smalltalk developers had
        been doing since the late 70s early 80s!!!!)

        See http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?XpRoots .

        There is no magic to Scrum + 11 (XP), or plain Scrum, (Scrum + 4
        core engineering practices) or 42 practices... :-)

        Start with Scrum and choose whatever engineering practices makes
        sense for *you* in *your context* and call it anything you want.

        But one thing is clear: it is easier to start with less (Scrum)
        and add practices (Scrum + whatever you want), than to shoot for 12
        (XP),... miss and be called an "XP failure",

        - Mike
      • Ron Jeffries
        ... Bite me, you rude ... I had a similar although not so vivid recollection of him saying something like that, and until recently would have so
        Message 3 of 28 , Dec 2, 2005
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          On Friday, December 2, 2005, at 1:23:16 AM, Mike Beedle wrote:

          > I bet you were an enemy spy in your previous life :-) !!!!

          Bite me, you rude <deleted/>

          > I vividly recall Kent Beck proudly saying several times:

          > I stole the management practices from Scrum and used them in XP
          > (He said that loudly enough so that all the participants from
          > the Snowbird 2001 could hear him, and they are all witnesses to
          > that.)

          > I thought it was an honest response, and I have always admired Kent
          > for being honest... and for having enough insight and intelligence
          > to steal the right thing: Scrum!

          I had a similar although not so vivid recollection of him saying
          something like that, and until recently would have so reported.
          However:

          On the XP list, Wednesday, July 20, 2005, 3:03:44 AM, Beck said, and
          I quote in its entirety:

          I read the original paper on which Scrum is based before
          formulating XP. However, the iteration/release structure used in
          XP I copied from a heart pacemaker project led by Jon Hopkins.

          I choose to take a man at his word. If I thought he had stolen it
          from Scrum, I would have said so.

          Oh, and bite me. Did I mention that? I'm at least as honest as you
          are and damn near as smart.

          Ron Jeffries
          www.XProgramming.com
          Accroche toi a ton reve. --ELO
        • Mike Cohn
          Ron-- Do you know if anything was written on that project or was it stuff Kent picked up from a conversation with them? (Just to be clear: I m not asking
          Message 4 of 28 , Dec 2, 2005
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            Ron--
            Do you know if anything was written on that project or was it stuff
            Kent picked up from a conversation with them?

            (Just to be clear: I'm not asking because I want "proof" or even care
            where ideas originated; I'd just like to read about it if that
            project is documented anywhere.)

            Thanks,

            Mike Cohn
            Author:
            Agile Estimating and Planning
            User Stories Applied
            www.mountaingoatsoftware.com


            On Dec 2, 2005, at 2:32 AM, Ron Jeffries wrote:

            > On Friday, December 2, 2005, at 1:23:16 AM, Mike Beedle wrote:
            >
            >> I bet you were an enemy spy in your previous life :-) !!!!
            >
            > Bite me, you rude <deleted/>
            >
            >> I vividly recall Kent Beck proudly saying several times:
            >
            >> I stole the management practices from Scrum and used them in XP
            >> (He said that loudly enough so that all the participants from
            >> the Snowbird 2001 could hear him, and they are all witnesses to
            >> that.)
            >
            >> I thought it was an honest response, and I have always admired Kent
            >> for being honest... and for having enough insight and intelligence
            >> to steal the right thing: Scrum!
            >
            > I had a similar although not so vivid recollection of him saying
            > something like that, and until recently would have so reported.
            > However:
            >
            > On the XP list, Wednesday, July 20, 2005, 3:03:44 AM, Beck said, and
            > I quote in its entirety:
            >
            > I read the original paper on which Scrum is based before
            > formulating XP. However, the iteration/release structure used in
            > XP I copied from a heart pacemaker project led by Jon Hopkins.
            >
            > I choose to take a man at his word. If I thought he had stolen it
            > from Scrum, I would have said so.
            >
            > Oh, and bite me. Did I mention that? I'm at least as honest as you
            > are and damn near as smart.
            >
            > Ron Jeffries
            > www.XProgramming.com
            > Accroche toi a ton reve. --ELO
            >
            >
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            >
          • Ron Jeffries
            ... I m not aware of anything, and Jon has dropped off my radar. Too bad. I knew him before I knew Beck and he was way cool. Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com
            Message 5 of 28 , Dec 2, 2005
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              On Friday, December 2, 2005, at 4:46:19 AM, Mike Cohn wrote:

              > Do you know if anything was written on that project or was it stuff
              > Kent picked up from a conversation with them?

              > (Just to be clear: I'm not asking because I want "proof" or even care
              > where ideas originated; I'd just like to read about it if that
              > project is documented anywhere.)

              I'm not aware of anything, and Jon has dropped off my radar. Too
              bad. I knew him before I knew Beck and he was way cool.

              Ron Jeffries
              www.XProgramming.com
              Accept your conditions, but not your fate. -- Rod Walsh & Dan Carrison
            • Mike Cohn
              Ah, so this is an actual Jon Hopkins, not a university. Well, I m continuing my efforts to translate the ancient Minoan language Linear A. It s from around
              Message 6 of 28 , Dec 2, 2005
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                Ah, so this is an actual Jon Hopkins, not a university.

                Well, I'm continuing my efforts to translate the ancient Minoan
                language Linear A. It's from around 2000 BCE and has never been
                translated. I believe I'm the closest and so far my research says the
                ancient Minoans were writing about iterative planning, test-driven
                development, and continuous integration. If that proves true, we may
                have found the real source and can then perhaps all agree to call
                these "Ancient Minoan Engineering Practices."

                Regards,
                Mike
                www.CatastrophicMinoanEngineeringPractices.com


                On Dec 2, 2005, at 2:55 AM, Ron Jeffries wrote:

                > On Friday, December 2, 2005, at 4:46:19 AM, Mike Cohn wrote:
                >
                >> Do you know if anything was written on that project or was it stuff
                >> Kent picked up from a conversation with them?
                >
                >> (Just to be clear: I'm not asking because I want "proof" or even care
                >> where ideas originated; I'd just like to read about it if that
                >> project is documented anywhere.)
                >
                > I'm not aware of anything, and Jon has dropped off my radar. Too
                > bad. I knew him before I knew Beck and he was way cool.
                >
                > Ron Jeffries
                > www.XProgramming.com
                > Accept your conditions, but not your fate. -- Rod Walsh & Dan
                > Carrison
                >
                >
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              • Ron Jeffries
                ... I think this is a worthy effort. Since my only original contribution to the Agile arts is the word YAGNI , and that s disputed, I myself am not the least
                Message 7 of 28 , Dec 2, 2005
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                  On Friday, December 2, 2005, at 5:09:20 AM, Mike Cohn wrote:

                  > Well, I'm continuing my efforts to translate the ancient Minoan
                  > language Linear A. It's from around 2000 BCE and has never been
                  > translated. I believe I'm the closest and so far my research says the
                  > ancient Minoans were writing about iterative planning, test-driven
                  > development, and continuous integration. If that proves true, we may
                  > have found the real source and can then perhaps all agree to call
                  > these "Ancient Minoan Engineering Practices."

                  I think this is a worthy effort. Since my only original contribution
                  to the Agile arts is the word "YAGNI", and that's disputed, I myself
                  am not the least interested in who had it first.

                  I continue to be amazed at the intensity around primacy, and around
                  differences between methods which all appear to me to be blind men's
                  views of the same elephant.

                  Ron Jeffries
                  www.XProgramming.com
                  We know less about the project today than at any time in the future.
                  -- Chet Hendrickson
                  You mean today is the dumbest day of the rest of my life?
                  -- Ron Jeffries
                • Ron Jeffries
                  ... Yes. The university has a somewhat different name. And what the hell are you doing up at this hour? And what the hell am I? Ron Jeffries
                  Message 8 of 28 , Dec 2, 2005
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                    On Friday, December 2, 2005, at 5:09:20 AM, Mike Cohn wrote:

                    > Ah, so this is an actual Jon Hopkins, not a university.

                    Yes. The university has a somewhat different name. And what the hell
                    are you doing up at this hour? And what the hell am I?

                    Ron Jeffries
                    www.XProgramming.com
                    How do I know what I think until I hear what I say? -- E M Forster
                  • Mike Cohn
                    I m in Munich--it s not quite noon here. I was wondering what you re doing up. Mike
                    Message 9 of 28 , Dec 2, 2005
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                      I'm in Munich--it's not quite noon here. I was wondering what you're
                      doing up.

                      Mike


                      On Dec 2, 2005, at 3:29 AM, Ron Jeffries wrote:

                      > On Friday, December 2, 2005, at 5:09:20 AM, Mike Cohn wrote:
                      >
                      >> Ah, so this is an actual Jon Hopkins, not a university.
                      >
                      > Yes. The university has a somewhat different name. And what the hell
                      > are you doing up at this hour? And what the hell am I?
                      >
                      > Ron Jeffries
                      > www.XProgramming.com
                      > How do I know what I think until I hear what I say? -- E M Forster
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------
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                      > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                      > ~->
                      >
                      > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
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                      > unsubscribe@...
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                      >
                      >
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                    • Mike Beedle
                      ... Ron, Ah, I see not much has changed in this list lately... nothing like a warm, gentle, factual and scholarly discussion with good friends. ... But
                      Message 10 of 28 , Dec 2, 2005
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                        Ron responded with his usual rudeness:
                        > On Friday, December 2, 2005, at 1:23:16 AM, Mike Beedle wrote:
                        >
                        > > I bet you were an enemy spy in your previous life :-) !!!!
                        >
                        > Bite me, you rude <deleted/>

                        Ron,

                        Ah, I see not much has changed in this list lately... nothing like
                        a warm, gentle, factual and scholarly discussion with good friends.

                        I wrote:
                        > > I vividly recall Kent Beck proudly saying several times:
                        >
                        > > I stole the management practices from Scrum and used them in

                        Ron wrote:
                        > On the XP list, Wednesday, July 20, 2005, 3:03:44 AM, Beck said,
                        > and I quote in its entirety:
                        >
                        > I read the original paper on which Scrum is based before
                        > formulating XP. However, the iteration/release structure used in
                        > XP I copied from a heart pacemaker project led by Jon Hopkins.
                        >
                        > I choose to take a man at his word. If I thought he had stolen it
                        > from Scrum, I would have said so.

                        But that's the problem.... which of "his past words" is true?

                        Did he tell the truth at Snowbird or on Wednesday, July 20,
                        2005, 3:03:44 AM? (or at neither?)... they are mutually exclusive
                        answers -- both of them can't be true together.

                        I guess there is always the possiblithy of "yet another story"
                        coming out in the next few years. (Perhaps he *in fact* learned
                        these software management techniques from an alien encounter.. or
                        maybe he found them in a deep sea exploration trip in a set of
                        encrypted tablets; but some of us conjecture that is more likely
                        read them in a paper he read at OOPSLA, workshoped at PLOP, from a
                        Scrum web page, or talked about it with a friend.... circa 1997-98?

                        You see, this is a problem with the software industry:

                        for a field that is sometimes called "information management"
                        we do a *very poor* job of managing information!!!

                        We are terrible at giving credit to those that deserve it... and
                        we are not talking about going back 2000 years and translating
                        encrypted documents in rare extinct or arcane languages.... we are
                        talking about timeframes as early as 1997-2005.

                        Around this time, Beck went to every conference where this "previous
                        art" was exposed, in some cases reviewed or sheppered the papers,
                        co-mingled and discussed these ideas with others (Coplien,
                        Cunningham, Sutherland, Beedle, etc.)... and yet did not
                        credit *any of these works* on his "seminal work",
                        Extreme Programming (hmm!).

                        Quoting previous art is the accepted standard
                        in many fields (Physics, Mathematics, Medicine, etc.). (Not doing
                        this and using "previous art" in known by some as plagiarism.) Imo,
                        this time-honored ethical standard should apply to software
                        developers, software development and software engineering.

                        > Oh, and bite me. Did I mention that? I'm at least
                        > as honest as you are and damn near as smart.

                        You win -- you are as honest and as smart as I am but you are
                        also more rude,

                        - Mike
                      • Ron Jeffries
                        ... I protest: you started it with the spy accusation. ... Read your own accusatory words, Mike. I tire of them. ... I agree that the two statements, if he
                        Message 11 of 28 , Dec 2, 2005
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                          On Friday, December 2, 2005, at 12:52:01 PM, Mike Beedle wrote:

                          > Ron responded with his usual rudeness:

                          I protest: you started it with the spy accusation.

                          >> On Friday, December 2, 2005, at 1:23:16 AM, Mike Beedle wrote:
                          >>
                          >> > I bet you were an enemy spy in your previous life :-) !!!!
                          >>
                          >> Bite me, you rude <deleted/>

                          > Ron,

                          > Ah, I see not much has changed in this list lately... nothing like
                          > a warm, gentle, factual and scholarly discussion with good friends.

                          Read your own accusatory words, Mike. I tire of them.

                          > I wrote:
                          >> > I vividly recall Kent Beck proudly saying several times:
                          >>
                          >> > I stole the management practices from Scrum and used them in

                          > But that's the problem.... which of "his past words" is true?

                          > Did he tell the truth at Snowbird or on Wednesday, July 20,
                          > 2005, 3:03:44 AM? (or at neither?)... they are mutually exclusive
                          > answers -- both of them can't be true together.

                          I agree that the two statements, if he made the one as you recall
                          (and that I recall more vaguely) can't be true together. Why you
                          would elect to call me an enemy spy and rail at me for quoting the
                          most recent one, I cannot imagine.

                          > I guess there is always the possiblithy of "yet another story"
                          > coming out in the next few years. (Perhaps he *in fact* learned
                          > these software management techniques from an alien encounter.. or
                          > maybe he found them in a deep sea exploration trip in a set of
                          > encrypted tablets; but some of us conjecture that is more likely
                          > read them in a paper he read at OOPSLA, workshoped at PLOP, from a
                          > Scrum web page, or talked about it with a friend.... circa 1997-98?

                          It sounds to me as if you have a problem with Beck. I'd suggest that
                          you work that out with him, or with a counselor of your own
                          choosing.

                          > You see, this is a problem with the software industry:

                          > for a field that is sometimes called "information management"
                          > we do a *very poor* job of managing information!!!

                          > We are terrible at giving credit to those that deserve it... and
                          > we are not talking about going back 2000 years and translating
                          > encrypted documents in rare extinct or arcane languages.... we are
                          > talking about timeframes as early as 1997-2005.

                          As it happens, I try rather hard to give credit where it is due,
                          though I do not always know just where I learned one of the things
                          I've picked up in the last half-century of doing this stuff.

                          So I would appreciate it if you would not paint me with the brush
                          you reserve for Beck, or for the industry at large. I am not his
                          clone, his acolyte, nor even much of a supporter, though I certainly
                          admire what he has written down and accomplished, no matter what the
                          source.

                          > Around this time, Beck went to every conference where this "previous
                          > art" was exposed, in some cases reviewed or sheppered the papers,
                          > co-mingled and discussed these ideas with others (Coplien,
                          > Cunningham, Sutherland, Beedle, etc.)... and yet did not
                          > credit *any of these works* on his "seminal work",
                          > Extreme Programming (hmm!).

                          How did this get to be my problem?

                          > Quoting previous art is the accepted standard
                          > in many fields (Physics, Mathematics, Medicine, etc.). (Not doing
                          > this and using "previous art" in known by some as plagiarism.) Imo,
                          > this time-honored ethical standard should apply to software
                          > developers, software development and software engineering.

                          How did this get to be my problem?

                          >> Oh, and bite me. Did I mention that? I'm at least
                          >> as honest as you are and damn near as smart.

                          > You win -- you are as honest and as smart as I am but you are
                          > also more rude,

                          I only wish I could rise to that standard. You started the
                          name-calling and ranting in response to a simple report on my part.
                          If this place had a moderator, I'd call the question.

                          Ron Jeffries
                          www.XProgramming.com
                          Show me the features!
                        • Mike Beedle
                          ... Ron, Accusing you of being an enemy spy in a previous life is obviously a joke. ... We are self-moderating, after all this is the scrum list. I plead
                          Message 12 of 28 , Dec 2, 2005
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                            Ron protested about my "enemy spy" joke:
                            > I protest: you started it with the spy accusation.
                            >
                            > >> On Friday, December 2, 2005, at 1:23:16 AM, Mike Beedle wrote:
                            > >>
                            > >> > I bet you were an enemy spy in your previous life :-) !!!!
                            > >>
                            > >> Bite me, you rude <deleted/>
                            >
                            > > Ron,
                            >
                            > > Ah, I see not much has changed in this list lately...
                            > > nothing like a warm, gentle, factual and scholarly discussion
                            > > with good friends.
                            >
                            > Read your own accusatory words, Mike. I tire of them.

                            Ron,

                            Accusing you of being "an enemy spy in a previous life" is obviously
                            a joke.

                            Ron wishes:
                            > I only wish I could rise to that standard. You started the
                            > name-calling and ranting in response to a simple report on my part.
                            > If this place had a moderator, I'd call the question.

                            We are self-moderating, after all this is the scrum list. I plead
                            for you to please get a sense of humor... I thought you had one.

                            But let's don't get distracted from the main fact being discussed
                            here:

                            Why aren't any XP authors, including Beck, acknowledging
                            "previous art" regarding agile development?

                            Why do we not see references to the previous contemporary work on
                            Scrum (OOPSLA, PLOP), which itself has an interesting lineage
                            DeGrace, P., and L. H. Stahl., Nonaka/Takeuchi, Rod Brooks, etc.,
                            Coplien (Org Patterns, PLOP), Cunningham (Episodes, PLOP), Smalltalk
                            culture, Opdyke's refactoring work and conclusions, etc?

                            So I ask, in all candor, what is wrong with acknoledging "the almost
                            contemporary source" of these ideas?

                            It seems wrong and dishonest not to do it,

                            - Mike
                          • Tobias Mayer
                            ... I agree, Mike. It does. And it strikes me as sinister, this almost pathological desire by some in the Agile communiy to act as if none of these practices
                            Message 13 of 28 , Dec 2, 2005
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                              Mike wrote:
                              So I ask, in all candor, what is wrong with acknoledging
                              > "the almost contemporary source" of these ideas?
                              > It seems wrong and dishonest not to do it,
                               
                              I agree, Mike.  It does.  And it strikes me as sinister, this almost pathological desire by some in the Agile communiy to act as if none of these practices existed before "Agile".  I don't really care about who invented which practice, but I'd like to see more recognition of some of the early pioneers of this way of working - and thinking, from Deming in manufacturing through, Brooks, Boehm, Parnas, Gilb, Glass... onward.  It can only serve us well, to show newcomers to agile methods the rich heritage of this way of thinking.  It wasn't invented; it emerged.
                              Tobias
                               


                              Mike Beedle <beedlem@...> wrote:

                              ...
                              But let's don't get distracted from the main fact being discussed
                              here:

                                 Why aren't any XP authors, including Beck, acknowledging
                                 "previous art" regarding agile development?

                              Why do we not see references to the previous contemporary work on
                              Scrum (OOPSLA, PLOP), which itself has an interesting lineage
                              DeGrace, P., and L. H. Stahl., Nonaka/Takeuchi, Rod Brooks, etc.,
                              Coplien (Org Patterns, PLOP), Cunningham (Episodes, PLOP), Smalltalk
                              culture,  Opdyke's refactoring work and conclusions, etc?

                              So I ask, in all candor, what is wrong with acknoledging "the almost
                              contemporary source" of these ideas?

                              It seems wrong and dishonest not to do it,

                              - Mike





                              To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
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                            • Ron Jeffries
                              ... I would commend to your attention the references in the back of /Extreme Programming Installed/, which extend 15 pages and include books by Highsmith,
                              Message 14 of 28 , Dec 2, 2005
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                                On Friday, December 2, 2005, at 2:44:35 PM, Tobias Mayer wrote:

                                > Mike wrote:
                                > > So I ask, in all candor, what is wrong with acknoledging
                                > > "the almost contemporary source" of these ideas?
                                >> It seems wrong and dishonest not to do it,
                                > I agree, Mike. It does. And it strikes me as sinister, this almost
                                > pathological desire by some in the Agile communiy to act as if
                                > none of these practices existed before "Agile". I don't really
                                > care about who invented which practice, but I'd like to see more
                                > recognition of some of the early pioneers of this way of working -
                                > and thinking, from Deming in manufacturing through, Brooks, Boehm,
                                > Parnas, Gilb, Glass... onward. It can only serve us well, to show
                                > newcomers to agile methods the rich heritage of this way of
                                > thinking. It wasn't invented; it emerged.

                                I would commend to your attention the references in the back of
                                /Extreme Programming Installed/, which extend 15 pages and include
                                books by Highsmith, Cockburn, Humphrey, Paulk, Weinberg and many
                                more, including such oldies but goodies as Gilb and Dijkstra.

                                We did not list the /Agile Software Development with Scrum/ book by
                                Schwaber and Beedle. The reason was a very good one: that Scrum book
                                came out a year or two after /Installed/.

                                I apologize for not waiting.

                                Ron Jeffries
                                www.XProgramming.com
                                Speak the affirmative; emphasize your choice
                                by utterly ignoring all that you reject. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
                              • Ron Jeffries
                                ... See previous email regarding 15 pages of references. ... We chose not to reference many papers because in general they did not impact the authors much at
                                Message 15 of 28 , Dec 2, 2005
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                                  On Friday, December 2, 2005, at 2:06:37 PM, Mike Beedle wrote:

                                  > But let's don't get distracted from the main fact being discussed
                                  > here:

                                  > Why aren't any XP authors, including Beck, acknowledging
                                  > "previous art" regarding agile development?

                                  See previous email regarding 15 pages of references.

                                  > Why do we not see references to the previous contemporary work on
                                  > Scrum (OOPSLA, PLOP), which itself has an interesting lineage
                                  > DeGrace, P., and L. H. Stahl., Nonaka/Takeuchi, Rod Brooks, etc.,
                                  > Coplien (Org Patterns, PLOP), Cunningham (Episodes, PLOP), Smalltalk
                                  > culture, Opdyke's refactoring work and conclusions, etc?

                                  We chose not to reference many papers because in general they did
                                  not impact the authors much at all, owing to our reading and
                                  conference attending patterns. We did in fact list a few of the
                                  authors above, of whom we were aware. I was vaguely aware of Jeff
                                  Sutherland's work, but only vaguely. I suppose it might be that the
                                  ideas you would like us to have referenced were in the ether, but we
                                  listed every significant document we could remember.

                                  It may be regrettable that none of those documents were about Scrum,
                                  but they were not. Whether Beck based his process on Scrum or not --
                                  which I do not for a moment believe -- our book was based on what
                                  the three of us actually did on real projects.

                                  And again, we referenced everything we could think of that had
                                  influenced us. I didn't even know who Mike Beedle was until I met
                                  him on the ride to Snowbird in 2001. I don't recall whether I had
                                  met Ken prior to that or not, but I don't think so.

                                  I wish to acknowledge, belatedly, that these individuals and many
                                  others have surely thought many thoughts that I have, and quite
                                  often first, and that I cannot prove that I did not receive those
                                  thoughts by reading or mental telepathy or other means. I do assert
                                  that I quote my sources when I know them. And anyone who has paid
                                  any attention to my work knows that.

                                  Ron Jeffries
                                  www.XProgramming.com
                                  Improvement stops when we start believing that
                                  ideas about how to improve are insulting.
                                • Tobias Mayer
                                  Ron, Don t take this personally. My comment was not about your book (or you), or Kent Beck s book, which also lists an extensive - and charmingly offbeat -
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Dec 2, 2005
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                                    Ron,
                                    Don't take this personally.  My comment was not about your book (or you), or Kent Beck's book, which also lists an extensive - and charmingly offbeat - bibliography.  It was about the attitude of a few people I have met in the Agile community (more often, not actively in) , who appear to have a desire to deny the history of this thing - as if it just apeared from nowhere when XP Explained was released.  Makes them feel special, or something.  I dunno.  Actually, it is proably more often the case they don't know the history, and have no wish to explore it.  Which is sad.  By reading back, and around some of these early ideas, practitioners of Agile would be able to go into organizations with a Bigger Picture, and not be bound by what many are now calling "The Scrum Methodology" or "the XP Process"  That's all I'm getting at. 
                                    Tobias


                                    Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...> wrote:
                                    On Friday, December 2, 2005, at 2:44:35 PM, Tobias Mayer wrote:

                                    > Mike wrote:
                                    >   >  So I ask, in all candor, what is wrong with acknoledging
                                    >   > "the almost contemporary source" of these ideas?
                                    >> It seems wrong and dishonest not to do it,
                                    > I agree, Mike. It does. And it strikes me as sinister, this almost
                                    > pathological desire by some in the Agile communiy to act as if
                                    > none of these practices existed before "Agile". I don't really
                                    > care about who invented which practice, but I'd like to see more
                                    > recognition of some of the early pioneers of this way of working -
                                    > and thinking, from Deming in manufacturing through, Brooks, Boehm,
                                    > Parnas, Gilb, Glass... onward. It can only serve us well, to show
                                    > newcomers to agile methods the rich heritage of this way of
                                    > thinking. It wasn't invented; it emerged.

                                    I would commend to your attention the references in the back of
                                    /Extreme Programming Installed/, which extend 15 pages and include
                                    books by Highsmith, Cockburn, Humphrey, Paulk, Weinberg and many
                                    more, including such oldies but goodies as Gilb and Dijkstra.

                                    We did not list the /Agile Software Development with Scrum/ book by
                                    Schwaber and Beedle. The reason was a very good one: that Scrum book
                                    came out a year or two after /Installed/.

                                    I apologize for not waiting.

                                    Ron Jeffries
                                    www.XProgramming.com
                                    Speak the affirmative; emphasize your choice
                                    by utterly ignoring all that you reject. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

                                  • Dave Bly
                                    Good point, Tobias. Somewhere earlier in this thread, I saw an allusion to Isaac Newton s famous quote, If I have seen further it is by standing on the
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Dec 2, 2005
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                                      Good point, Tobias.

                                       

                                      Somewhere earlier in this thread, I saw an allusion to Isaac Newton’s famous quote, “If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants.”  Good stuff, that.

                                       

                                      In our field of software development, we have witnessed a remarkable evolution in the school of thought about how to develop software better.  Agile is a step in that evolution, but it owes its existence to the trials and errors of all those who have come before, who wrestled with the same beasts, who won some and lost some.  It’s all part of the journey.  Let us not lose sight of that and let us honor our predecessors (oops, my PM is showing).  My hat’s off to all of them, famous, infamous, anonymous and ignominious.

                                       

                                      Especially, let’s recognize that Agile won’t be the end of the evolutionary progress either.

                                       

                                      Dave

                                      - Learning from my mistakes for 25 years now and counting.

                                       

                                       

                                       


                                      From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com [mailto: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Tobias Mayer
                                      Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 11:45 AM
                                      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: (unknown)

                                       

                                      Mike wrote:

                                      So I ask, in all candor, what is wrong with acknoledging

                                      > "the almost contemporary source" of these ideas?

                                      > It seems wrong and dishonest not to do it,

                                       

                                      I agree, Mike.  It does.  And it strikes me as sinister, this almost pathological desire by some in the Agile communiy to act as if none of these practices existed before "Agile".  I don't really care about who invented which practice, but I'd like to see more recognition of some of the early pioneers of this way of working - and thinking, from Deming in manufacturing through, Brooks, Boehm, Parnas, Gilb, Glass... onward.  It can only serve us well, to show newcomers to agile methods the rich heritage of this way of thinking.  It wasn't invented; it emerged.

                                      Tobias

                                       



                                      Mike Beedle <beedlem@...> wrote:


                                      ...
                                      But let's don't get distracted from the main fact being discussed
                                      here:

                                         Why aren't any XP authors, including Beck, acknowledging
                                         "previous art" regarding agile development?

                                      Why do we not see references to the previous contemporary work on
                                      Scrum (OOPSLA, PLOP), which itself has an interesting lineage
                                      DeGrace, P., and L. H. Stahl., Nonaka/Takeuchi, Rod Brooks, etc.,
                                      Coplien (Org Patterns, PLOP), Cunningham (Episodes, PLOP), Smalltalk
                                      culture,  Opdyke's refactoring work and conclusions, etc?

                                      So I ask, in all candor, what is wrong with acknoledging "the almost
                                      contemporary source" of these ideas?

                                      It seems wrong and dishonest not to do it,

                                      - Mike





                                      To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
                                      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...



                                       


                                    • Ron Jeffries
                                      ... If you think his is offbeat, read ours. Don t miss You Don t Eat Spiders . ... Well, I don t know. The people I hang with are all variously well-read but
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Dec 2, 2005
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                                        On Friday, December 2, 2005, at 5:16:38 PM, Tobias Mayer wrote:

                                        > Don't take this personally. My comment was not about your book (or
                                        > you), or Kent Beck's book, which also lists an extensive - and
                                        > charmingly offbeat - bibliography.

                                        If you think his is offbeat, read ours. Don't miss "You Don't Eat
                                        Spiders".

                                        > It was about the attitude of a few people I have met in the Agile
                                        > community (more often, not actively in) , who appear to have a
                                        > desire to deny the history of this thing - as if it just apeared
                                        > from nowhere when XP Explained was released. Makes them feel
                                        > special, or something. I dunno. Actually, it is proably more often
                                        > the case they don't know the history, and have no wish to explore
                                        > it. Which is sad. By reading back, and around some of these early
                                        > ideas, practitioners of Agile would be able to go into
                                        > organizations with a Bigger Picture, and not be bound by what many
                                        > are now calling "The Scrum Methodology" or "the XP Process" That's
                                        > all I'm getting at.

                                        Well, I don't know. The people I hang with are all variously
                                        well-read but at least know most of the other people in the
                                        community and something of their work. I certainly don't know
                                        everything, and expect that most people are the same, though we may
                                        be fortunate enough to have an exception right here on this group.

                                        It seems to me that none of us reads everything he might, nor
                                        remembers everything he'd like to. I don't see a lot of people
                                        acting as if they invented everything, and when they do I am more
                                        inclined to smile than I am to go chaotic. But that's just me.

                                        Ron Jeffries
                                        www.XProgramming.com
                                        I could be wrong, of course. It's just not the way to bet.
                                      • Paul Beckford
                                        I m not an historian, and I weren t involved in the promotion of Agile ideas, but is it not possible that similar ideas began to gel in several minds all at
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Dec 2, 2005
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                                          I'm not an historian, and I weren't involved in the promotion of Agile
                                          ideas, but is it not possible that similar ideas began to gel in several
                                          minds all at about the same time? I know that it wouldn't have been the
                                          first time in history that something like that had happened. I like many
                                          experience developers considered myself to be Agile long before "Agile"
                                          was invented. It was the way things actually got done. Yet I don't
                                          expect to be referenced anywhere :^)

                                          One of the successes of XP is its clever packaging and marketing. This
                                          packaging IMO is also the biggest weaknesses of XP. There is a lot more
                                          to Agility then 12 neatly packaged practices. The sad fact is that we
                                          live in a world where marketing and PR counts, and Kent Beck did a good
                                          job at that.

                                          "The truth" is a lot more complex then XP. It is as complex as the
                                          myriad of organisations and people out there. For those interested in
                                          knowing the truth then XP is just a starting place. From there SCRUM is
                                          often the next step, standing back and seeing the bigger picture. I find
                                          the work of Alistair Cockburn real useful when it comes to the softer
                                          people issues within teams. And so the quest for knowlege and
                                          understanding continues...

                                          If software development has taught me one thing, that is humility. Every
                                          time I think I've come across the final answer to everything, something
                                          happens to show me that I've still have a lot to learn. I think this
                                          applies to all of us. In my opinion it is partially a lack of humility
                                          by software practitioners that got us into this (waterfall) mess in the
                                          first place.

                                          So does it really matter who wrote what when? Haven't we all
                                          contributed to change in some small way? And don't we all still have a
                                          lot to learn and understand?

                                          Paul.

                                          Tobias Mayer wrote:

                                          > Ron,
                                          > Don't take this personally. My comment was not about your book (or
                                          > you), or Kent Beck's book, which also lists an extensive -
                                          > and charmingly offbeat - bibliography. It was about the attitude of a
                                          > few people I have met in the Agile community (more often, not
                                          > /actively/ in) , who appear to have a desire to deny the history of
                                          > this thing - as if it just apeared from nowhere when XP Explained was
                                          > released. Makes them feel special, or something. I dunno. Actually,
                                          > it is proably more often the case they don't know the history, and
                                          > have no wish to explore it. Which is sad. By reading back, and
                                          > around some of these early ideas, practitioners of Agile would be able
                                          > to go into organizations with a Bigger Picture, and not be bound by
                                          > what many are now calling "The Scrum Methodology" or "the XP Process"
                                          > That's all I'm getting at.
                                          > Tobias
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > */Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@...>/* wrote:
                                          >
                                          > On Friday, December 2, 2005, at 2:44:35 PM, Tobias Mayer wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > Mike wrote:
                                          > > > So I ask, in all candor, what is wrong with acknoledging
                                          > > > "the almost contemporary source" of these ideas?
                                          > >> It seems wrong and dishonest not to do it,
                                          > > I agree, Mike. It does. And it strikes me as sinister, this almost
                                          > > pathological desire by some in the Agile communiy to act as if
                                          > > none of these practices existed before "Agile". I don't really
                                          > > care about who invented which practice, but I'd like to see more
                                          > > recognition of some of the early pioneers of this way of working -
                                          > > and thinking, from Deming in manufacturing through, Brooks, Boehm,
                                          > > Parnas, Gilb, Glass... onward. It can only serve us well, to show
                                          > > newcomers to agile methods the rich heritage of this way of
                                          > > thinking. It wasn't invented; it emerged.
                                          >
                                          > I would commend to your attention the references in the back of
                                          > /Extreme Programming Installed/, which extend 15 pages and include
                                          > books by Highsmith, Cockburn, Humphrey, Paulk, Weinberg and many
                                          > more, including such oldies but goodies as Gilb and Dijkstra.
                                          >
                                          > We did not list the /Agile Software Development with Scrum/ book by
                                          > Schwaber and Beedle. The reason was a very good one: that Scrum book
                                          > came out a year or two after /Installed/.
                                          >
                                          > I apologize for not waiting.
                                          >
                                          > Ron Jeffries
                                          > www.XProgramming.com
                                          > Speak the affirmative; emphasize your choice
                                          > by utterly ignoring all that you reject. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                                          > To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                          > scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
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                                          > Scrum
                                          > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Scrum&w1=Scrum&c=1&s=11&.sig=KvDTKhw7ncC9XbB25jdApQ>
                                          >
                                          >
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                                        • Mike Dwyer
                                          Hmm that explains a lot. Do Xp Trainers get a chance to swim in a variety of fermented bit buckets too? Michael F. Dwyer Planning constantly peers into the
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Dec 2, 2005
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                                            Hmm that explains a lot. Do Xp Trainers get a chance to swim in a variety of
                                            fermented bit buckets too?

                                            Michael F. Dwyer

                                            "Planning constantly peers into the future for indications as to where a
                                            solution may emerge."
                                            "A Plan is a complex situation, adapting to an emerging solution."

                                            -----Original Message-----
                                            From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                            [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Jeffries
                                            Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 7:16 PM
                                            To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: (unknown)

                                            On Friday, December 2, 2005, at 5:16:38 PM, Tobias Mayer wrote:

                                            > Don't take this personally. My comment was not about your book (or
                                            > you), or Kent Beck's book, which also lists an extensive - and
                                            > charmingly offbeat - bibliography.

                                            If you think his is offbeat, read ours. Don't miss "You Don't Eat
                                            Spiders".

                                            > It was about the attitude of a few people I have met in the Agile
                                            > community (more often, not actively in) , who appear to have a
                                            > desire to deny the history of this thing - as if it just apeared
                                            > from nowhere when XP Explained was released. Makes them feel
                                            > special, or something. I dunno. Actually, it is proably more often
                                            > the case they don't know the history, and have no wish to explore
                                            > it. Which is sad. By reading back, and around some of these early
                                            > ideas, practitioners of Agile would be able to go into
                                            > organizations with a Bigger Picture, and not be bound by what many
                                            > are now calling "The Scrum Methodology" or "the XP Process" That's
                                            > all I'm getting at.

                                            Well, I don't know. The people I hang with are all variously
                                            well-read but at least know most of the other people in the
                                            community and something of their work. I certainly don't know
                                            everything, and expect that most people are the same, though we may
                                            be fortunate enough to have an exception right here on this group.

                                            It seems to me that none of us reads everything he might, nor
                                            remembers everything he'd like to. I don't see a lot of people
                                            acting as if they invented everything, and when they do I am more
                                            inclined to smile than I am to go chaotic. But that's just me.

                                            Ron Jeffries
                                            www.XProgramming.com
                                            I could be wrong, of course. It's just not the way to bet.



                                            To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                                            To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                            scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          • Ron Jeffries
                                            ... I don t understand the question. Have you been swimming in the fermented grain bucket? ;- Ron Jeffries www.XProgramming.com Do we learn more through
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Dec 2, 2005
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                                              On Friday, December 2, 2005, at 8:36:48 PM, Mike Dwyer wrote:

                                              > Hmm that explains a lot. Do Xp Trainers get a chance to swim in a
                                              > variety of fermented bit buckets too?

                                              I don't understand the question. Have you been swimming in the
                                              fermented grain bucket? ;->

                                              Ron Jeffries
                                              www.XProgramming.com
                                              Do we learn more through cynicism, or through some other mental posture?
                                            • Mike Dwyer
                                              Only the Backstroke. I once held off 50 men who tried to rescue me - fools. Michael F. Dwyer Planning constantly peers into the future for indications as to
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Dec 3, 2005
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                                                Only the Backstroke. I once held off 50 men who tried to rescue me - fools.

                                                Michael F. Dwyer

                                                "Planning constantly peers into the future for indications as to where a
                                                solution may emerge."
                                                "A Plan is a complex situation, adapting to an emerging solution."

                                                -----Original Message-----
                                                From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                [mailto:scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ron Jeffries
                                                Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 10:07 PM
                                                To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: Re: [scrumdevelopment] Re: (unknown)

                                                On Friday, December 2, 2005, at 8:36:48 PM, Mike Dwyer wrote:

                                                > Hmm that explains a lot. Do Xp Trainers get a chance to swim in a
                                                > variety of fermented bit buckets too?

                                                I don't understand the question. Have you been swimming in the
                                                fermented grain bucket? ;->

                                                Ron Jeffries
                                                www.XProgramming.com
                                                Do we learn more through cynicism, or through some other mental posture?



                                                To Post a message, send it to: scrumdevelopment@...
                                                To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
                                                scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...
                                                Yahoo! Groups Links
                                              • Mike Beedle
                                                Paul, I am not a historian either. Of course, in general, it is possible that similar ideas can gel into several minds about the same time, but in this case
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Dec 6, 2005
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                                                  Paul,

                                                  I am not a historian either. Of course, in general, it is possible
                                                  that similar ideas can gel into several minds about the same time,
                                                  but in this case it is _not_ the case.

                                                  Here are some facts that should help convince you:

                                                  1) The first Scrum project was in 1993. The first XP project was
                                                  later in 1997.

                                                  2) The first referreed Scrum papers were in 1996 (Ken's OOPSLA
                                                  paper), and 1997 (Beedle, Devos, Sharon, Schwaber, Sutherland). The
                                                  first refereed publication on XP was in 1999, the book "Extreme
                                                  Programming". (Kent was in many cases a participant in workshops
                                                  where these papers were presented or discussed.)

                                                  3) Kent was in every conference (OOPSLA and PLOP), and every mailing
                                                  list (patterns-discussion, organizational-patterns, etc.), where
                                                  Scrum was discussed since 1994. (I met Kent in the early 90s. It
                                                  was his idea to use the Alexanderian ideas for software development
                                                  as far back as 1987. Others followed, but he started that.)

                                                  4) Kent actively seek the help of Jeff Sutherland when he was
                                                  running the C3 project. (All of us were looking for the equivalent
                                                  of "The Oregon Experiment" process in the Alexanderian
                                                  architecture. Scrum is such a process!)

                                                  but foremost,

                                                  5) Many of us were in a room full of people -- a group that included
                                                  Ron Jeffries, at Snowbird 2001 when Kent Beck said: I stole Scrum
                                                  and used Scrum in XP (paraphrasing).

                                                  I have always have admired his honesty. This makes it the best
                                                  compliment to Scrum, but denying that claim now, makes Beck a
                                                  plagiarist (which he is not in my mind, since he gave proper credit
                                                  at least verbally).


                                                  ***

                                                  Why is it important? Well, we wouldn't have inventors (think
                                                  Edison, Bardeen, etc.), or Nobel Prize winners (Dirac, Feynman,
                                                  Einstein, Nambu, etc.), or in general, for that mattter a system for
                                                  giving *proper credit to those who deserve it*.

                                                  One of the reasons I am interested in this discussion is to make
                                                  sure that respect is provided for those who deserve it. As it is
                                                  fair to give credit to Nambu, Susskind and Nielsen for the invention
                                                  of Strings for example; it is fair to give Jeff Sutherland credit
                                                  for the invention of Scrum, and to give Ken Schwaber credit for his
                                                  significant contributions,

                                                  - Mike



                                                  --- In scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com, Paul Beckford
                                                  <beckfordp@b...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > I'm not an historian, and I weren't involved in the promotion of
                                                  Agile
                                                  > ideas, but is it not possible that similar ideas began to gel in
                                                  several
                                                  > minds all at about the same time? I know that it wouldn't have
                                                  been the
                                                  > first time in history that something like that had happened. I
                                                  like many
                                                  > experience developers considered myself to be Agile long
                                                  before "Agile"
                                                  > was invented. It was the way things actually got done. Yet I don't
                                                  > expect to be referenced anywhere :^)
                                                  >
                                                  > One of the successes of XP is its clever packaging and marketing.
                                                  This
                                                  > packaging IMO is also the biggest weaknesses of XP. There is a lot
                                                  more
                                                  > to Agility then 12 neatly packaged practices. The sad fact is
                                                  that we
                                                  > live in a world where marketing and PR counts, and Kent Beck did a
                                                  good
                                                  > job at that.
                                                  >
                                                  > "The truth" is a lot more complex then XP. It is as complex as the
                                                  > myriad of organisations and people out there. For those interested
                                                  in
                                                  > knowing the truth then XP is just a starting place. From there
                                                  SCRUM is
                                                  > often the next step, standing back and seeing the bigger picture.
                                                  I find
                                                  > the work of Alistair Cockburn real useful when it comes to the
                                                  softer
                                                  > people issues within teams. And so the quest for knowlege and
                                                  > understanding continues...
                                                  >
                                                  > If software development has taught me one thing, that is humility.
                                                  Every
                                                  > time I think I've come across the final answer to everything,
                                                  something
                                                  > happens to show me that I've still have a lot to learn. I think
                                                  this
                                                  > applies to all of us. In my opinion it is partially a lack of
                                                  humility
                                                  > by software practitioners that got us into this (waterfall) mess
                                                  in the
                                                  > first place.
                                                  >
                                                  > So does it really matter who wrote what when? Haven't we all
                                                  > contributed to change in some small way? And don't we all still
                                                  have a
                                                  > lot to learn and understand?
                                                  >
                                                  > Paul.
                                                  >
                                                  > Tobias Mayer wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > > Ron,
                                                  > > Don't take this personally. My comment was not about your book
                                                  (or
                                                  > > you), or Kent Beck's book, which also lists an extensive -
                                                  > > and charmingly offbeat - bibliography. It was about the
                                                  attitude of a
                                                  > > few people I have met in the Agile community (more often, not
                                                  > > /actively/ in) , who appear to have a desire to deny the history
                                                  of
                                                  > > this thing - as if it just apeared from nowhere when XP
                                                  Explained was
                                                  > > released. Makes them feel special, or something. I dunno.
                                                  Actually,
                                                  > > it is proably more often the case they don't know the history,
                                                  and
                                                  > > have no wish to explore it. Which is sad. By reading back, and
                                                  > > around some of these early ideas, practitioners of Agile would
                                                  be able
                                                  > > to go into organizations with a Bigger Picture, and not be bound
                                                  by
                                                  > > what many are now calling "The Scrum Methodology" or "the XP
                                                  Process"
                                                  > > That's all I'm getting at.
                                                  > > Tobias
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > */Ron Jeffries <ronjeffries@X...>/* wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > On Friday, December 2, 2005, at 2:44:35 PM, Tobias Mayer
                                                  wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > > Mike wrote:
                                                  > > > > So I ask, in all candor, what is wrong with
                                                  acknoledging
                                                  > > > > "the almost contemporary source" of these ideas?
                                                  > > >> It seems wrong and dishonest not to do it,
                                                  > > > I agree, Mike. It does. And it strikes me as sinister,
                                                  this almost
                                                  > > > pathological desire by some in the Agile communiy to act
                                                  as if
                                                  > > > none of these practices existed before "Agile". I don't
                                                  really
                                                  > > > care about who invented which practice, but I'd like to
                                                  see more
                                                  > > > recognition of some of the early pioneers of this way of
                                                  working -
                                                  > > > and thinking, from Deming in manufacturing through,
                                                  Brooks, Boehm,
                                                  > > > Parnas, Gilb, Glass... onward. It can only serve us well,
                                                  to show
                                                  > > > newcomers to agile methods the rich heritage of this way of
                                                  > > > thinking. It wasn't invented; it emerged.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I would commend to your attention the references in the back
                                                  of
                                                  > > /Extreme Programming Installed/, which extend 15 pages and
                                                  include
                                                  > > books by Highsmith, Cockburn, Humphrey, Paulk, Weinberg and
                                                  many
                                                  > > more, including such oldies but goodies as Gilb and Dijkstra.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > We did not list the /Agile Software Development with Scrum/
                                                  book by
                                                  > > Schwaber and Beedle. The reason was a very good one: that
                                                  Scrum book
                                                  > > came out a year or two after /Installed/.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I apologize for not waiting.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Ron Jeffries
                                                  > > www.XProgramming.com
                                                  > > Speak the affirmative; emphasize your choice
                                                  > > by utterly ignoring all that you reject. -- Ralph Waldo
                                                  Emerson
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
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