Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

4334RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: agile vs Agile and the benefits of using Scrum over tranditional methods

Expand Messages
  • Doug Shimp
    Sep 1, 2004

      Hi Tim,

       

      >>  quantify the benefits of using agile over traditional to customers.

       

       Has anyone ever done this? Is the quantification for the traditional methods on any better ground as a basis for using in software development than Scrum or Agile?

       

      What has been measured

      The traditional methods have been marginally (at best) successful in justifying their position quantitatively. They have tried to measure the business value derived from producing a system and mapping it to the methods involved. At best, they have made rough large grained measurements of the benefit but, they have not made a reliable mapping to the individual methods involved.

       

      What is interesting is that we can still use their argument…

      Scrum/Agile practices can be considered as a subset of these traditional methods. Many of these traditional methods could be called the “IT Process of Everything”. We have found that these traditional methods are over complicated, create confusion and we spend far more energy tailoring them than using them. Scrum/Agile can be considered to focus on the minimal set of methods necessary to successfully achieve business objectives.

       

      How does Scrum help…

      Scrum helps us focus on what our product needs. Scrum/Agile is not something new; rather it is a clear minimal set of methods that our industry has found to be useful in getting the job done. Scrum helps us focus on those methods that are needed to produce product within our given environment and helps us eliminate those methods that get in the way. Our industry has found that it is far easier to extend a body of knowledge than it is to reduce it to what is needed. Scrum helps us by starting with a minimal set. That’s what makes it beautiful, enticing and useful.

       

       

       

       

      _________________________________

       

      Douglas Shimp

      Senior Consultant

      doug_shimp@...

      414.839.2933

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Garnett, Steve [mailto:steve.garnett@...]
      Sent
      : Wednesday, September 01, 2004 10:58 AM
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: agile vs Agile

       

      Tim,

       

      Yes, everyone associated with the project believes it has been brilliant. The business are far more confident and happy with the functionality built, its been built to budget, and we’ve been able to incorporate change by managing the product backlog effectively…

       

      My company is enthusiastic about using Scrum and XP on future projects, however, I can’t quantify the benefits of using agile over traditional to customers.

       

      The best we’ll have is an excellent case study, which is useful but it is the clear bottom-line quantification that is needed rather than customer and team testimonies.

       

      Cheers,

       

      Steve

       


      From: Tim Marston [mailto:t.marston@...]
      Sent: 01 September 2004 11:04
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: agile vs Agile

       

      Steve,

       

          Has this first project been a success, which you are now able to proffer as evidence to the less enthusiastic areas?

       

      Tim

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Garnett, Steve [mailto:steve.garnett@...]
      Sent: 01 September 2004 09:45
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: agile vs Agile

      Mike,

       

      I’ve been reading the thread on agile v Agile whilst trying to articulate and “sell” Agile within my company and to prospective customers. I have recently completed my first project as scrum master.

       

      The way I have begun to see scrum mastering versus traditional project management is similar to the difference between transactional and transformational leadership, and similar in consequence between hierarchical/process organizations and flat-structured/cultural organizations.

       

      It is by using “metaphors” such as these that I am finding some traction with the “unconverted hordes”.

       

      The problem I’m having with “selling” Agile is that most of my customers think in a traditional way, the rationalism of Weber… This is leading the marketing team to sell Agile techniques using traditional language.

       

      How can I articulate the difference that self-organization makes to a team versus command and control structures without evidence!

       

      I am swiftly coming to the conclusion that the only way we will “sell” Agile is to do so by example. Until there is clear proof of its value, the dominant logic of the IT industry will be to load the front-end of projects with planning, and play the “cover my back” game with risks and issues logs.

       

      I think the best way forward is to introduce Agile methods covertly, starting with the incremental introduction of XP development practices by the team and then over-laying it with Scrum once you’ve got enough stakeholders on board. There will always be some customers open to an Agile approach from the outset, but particularly in the UK these are few and far between.

       

      The important thing is to maintain groups like this, and particularly the agile alliance to ensure there is a “pure” source somewhere!

       

      Regards,

       

      Steve  

       


      From: Mike Beedle [mailto:beedlem@...]
      Sent: 31 August 2004 20:27
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: !RE: [scrumdevelopment] RE: agile vs Agile

       


      Ken/Daniel:

      Your postings reminded me of something I wrote a couple of years ago:

      "It troubles me that the _fundamental differences_ between traditional
      and agile processes are not highlighted, either by the creators
      and supporters of the Agile movement, or by traditional
      software development figure-heads."
      http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AgileRevolution


      " ...Agile Software Development will be in the 2000's what
      Defined-Process Software Development was in the 1980's. Everyone
      will be in favor of it. Every manufacturer will promote his
      products as supporting it. Every manager will pay lip service
      to it. Every programmer will practice it (differently).
      And no one will know just what it is."
      http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AgileRentschianThinking


      ..... unfortunately, "agile" is bound to go through that
      irreversible cycle of commercialization that tends to evaporate
      the meaning of valuable things as it has done with
      "structured programming", "functional programming",
      "object-oriented programming", "agent-technology", and now
      "service-oriented architecture".

      Just like everything else that our industry has managed to
      mangle, obfuscate, obscure, but simultaneously glamorize and
      idolize, "agile development", like any other wave, will be
      the prey of commercialization, opportunism, envy,
      silver-bulleting, .... and the rest of the socio-economic
      diseases of our time.

      Agile is dead, Long live Agile!

      - Mike

      (For some reason this discussion makes me think of the following poem
      ;-)

      Could Be

      I only sang
      because the lonely road was long;
      and now the road and I are gone
      but not the song.
      I only spoke
      the verse to pay for borrowed time
      and now the clock and I are broken
      but not the rhyme.
      Possibly,
      the self not being fundamental,
      eternity
      breathes only on the incidental.

            -- Ernesto Galarza (1905-1984)

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Daniel Gackle [mailto:gackle@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 12:10 PM
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] RE: agile vs Agile


      Ken,

      I agree. Reading those articles, I was astonished at how contentless
      they are.  It's impossible to figure out what they mean by "agile"
      because, IMHO, they don't mean anything by it. A precise translation
      might be "buzz buzz buzz".

      Perhaps this is an inevitable stage in the lifecycle of any movement
      that reaches a certain mass. If so, we can expect this wave of
      misunderstanding to continue. What matters is that enough of the core
      value manage to survive it. The key place to preserve this value is in
      our own individual and team practice.

      This relates to the conversation about "selling agile". The risk in
      selling agile is that only the word will be bought and exchanged, not
      the core. (For this we now have Exhibit A: CIO magazine.) This will make
      some people some money, but it will not bring what many of us would most
      like to see from Agile, which someone expressed to me recently as
      "making software projects less soul-destroying".

      You can bottle the bathwater, but not the baby.

      - Daniel


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 1:34 am
      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Digest Number 701

      There is a whole issue of CIO magazine devoted to "agile"
      (http://www.cio.com/archive/081504/index.html). When we held the meeting
      in Snowbird in 2001, Martin Fowler suggested that we name the thing
      "quackenpoof" rather than "agile" to discourage other people from
      cheaply using the name, as the have in this issue of CIO. "Oh, yes,
      goodness sakes, we are doing much better in my "100 Most Agile"
      organization... we now get the software out the door sometimes."

      I'd have been so much more pleased if one of these people had a clue
      about Agile rather than just the word agile. So, remember that when you
      discuss agile, if you are referring to the commercialization fad that
      will fade in about two years, use the small "a" agile. When you are
      referring to something that comforms to the Agile movement and the Agile
      manifesto, use the capital "A" Agile.

      Scrum on,
      Ken




      To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to:
      scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...


      Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
      ADVERTISEMENT






      Yahoo! Groups Links

      To visit your group on the web, go to:
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scrumdevelopment/
       
      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
       
      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.




      To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...



      _____________________________________________________________________
      This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by MessageLabs. The information contained in this message is confidential and is intended for the addressee only. If you have received this message in error, please notify Conchango plc as soon as possible. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is prohibited and may be unlawful. The internet cannot guarantee the integrity of this message and therefore Conchango plc will not be liable for the message if modified.

      Reg. Heritage House, Church Road, Egham, Surrey, TW20 9QD T 44 (0) 1784 222 222 F 44 (0) 1784 222 200 E talktous@... No. 2598884


      To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...



      To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...




      _____________________________________________________________________
      This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by MessageLabs. The information contained in this message is confidential and is intended for the addressee only. If you have received this message in error, please notify Conchango plc as soon as possible. The unauthorised use, disclosure, copying or alteration of this message is prohibited and may be unlawful. The internet cannot guarantee the integrity of this message and therefore Conchango plc will not be liable for the message if modified.

      Reg. Heritage House, Church Road, Egham, Surrey, TW20 9QD T 44 (0) 1784 222 222 F 44 (0) 1784 222 200 E talktous@... No. 2598884


      To Post a message, send it to:   scrumdevelopment@...
      To Unsubscribe, send a blank message to: scrumdevelopment-unsubscribe@...





      ______________________________________________________________________
      This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
      For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
      ______________________________________________________________________

    • Show all 25 messages in this topic