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331RE: [scrumdevelopment] Re: [XP] Scrum and XP

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  • Mike Beedle
    May 15, 2002
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      Great response.  You make a couple of very good points about the separation of
      concerns (management/engineering) and about the scope of each.
      However, let me focus on your question:  "Is Scrum going to end up just being part of XP?"
      Here is my take:  not a chance.  If anything, XP might eventually adopt a "full Scrum"
      approach, and eventually get closer to a full gene mix of XP and Scrum.  But many of
      us have already passed that level even 2 years ago.
      However, XP@Scrum and XBreed have gone beyond that level by seeking very specific goals
      that will contribute with more agile practices/patterns.
      In the case of XP@Scrum the new extra practices will come from the emphasis on
      "Business-Value Driven Development".  I am anxious to get a copy of Ken and Kane's
      new book on  Business-Value Driven Development.  Ken, do you guys have concrete
      date for when we might expect this book?  
      In the case of XBreed, the new practices will come from the goal of creating a
      layered framework of reusable components shared among many contributing teams.
      - Mike 
      -----Original Message-----
      From: andycirillo [mailto:acirillo@...]
      Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2002 1:37 AM
      To: scrumdevelopment@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [scrumdevelopment] Re: [XP] Scrum and XP

      I won't attempt to answer your question because I'm kind of wondering
      the same thing (except that my version is 'Isn't the XP planning game
      just a scaled-down version of Scrum?')

      I would like to make a few comments in support of Scrum however:

      1.  Scrum is scalable.  There are precedents for having Scrums of
      Scrums of Scrums, which is critical if you want to use agile methods
      across an organization, or on very large teams.

      2.  I think the Scrum concept of a backlog is more sophisticated than
      anything on the XP side.  The flow from Product Backlog to Version
      Backlog to Sprint Backlog gives you a nice clean way to manage a
      product roadmap without sacrificing flexibility.

      3.  Scrum is something that professional managers can relate to. 
      These guys don't care about continuous integration or unit testing. 
      XP is largely outside of their world, which means that they will have
      a hard time relating to development.  Scrum is something they can
      sink their teeth into, and it can act as a 'contract' between them
      and development that both sides can understand.

      4.  Like you said, Scrum can be an easier way to "go agile" than XP. 
      If you're walking into an environment with no unit tests, no
      continuous integration and developers that break out in hives at the
      mention of pair programming, you can still implement Scrum fairly

      My impression is that both XP and Scrum have crude 'stubs' of each
      other built into them, which suggests that they were meant to be used
      together - which begs the question, "Is Scrum going to end up just
      being part of XP?"

      --- In scrumdevelopment@y..., Lowell Lindstrom <lindstrom@o...> wrote:
      > I can't seem to find a substantial difference between the XP
      Planning Game
      > and Scrum.  There are subtle differences, but if the team is
      adapting their
      > work as they proceed, I can't see why I starting with one versus
      the other
      > would have make any difference in the outcome of the project.
      > I can see how Scrum would be a way to move towards XP in a "non-XP-
      > environment or simply a way to be Agile, if I not using XP
      > practices.
      > If I am in an "XP-friendly" environment, I would not want to
      > things by introducing Scrum terminology for project management,
      which is
      > largely redundant to the Planning Game.
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: kschwaber [mailto:ken.schwaber@v...]
      > > Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 2:00 PM
      > > To: extremeprogramming@y...
      > > Subject: [XP] Scrum and XP
      > >
      > >
      > > On May 12, Ron Jefferies wrote:
      > >
      > > >> What does Scrum seem to have that XP does not? It seems to me
      > > >> Scrum is a subset of XP.
      > >
      > > I used to think that XP was a subset of Scrum until I understood
      > > better. Then I understood that Scrum is a set of business and
      > > management practices, XP is a set of engineering practices. They
      > > use iterations, increments, emergence, self-organization, and
      > > collaboration, so I've been able to use each of them to make up
      > > what the other doesn't address.
      > >
      > > Ken Schwaber
      > >

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