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Re: Digest Number 1854lNeil/Trish.Den Chief

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  • nuts4scouts
    I was never a Cub Scout, Boy Scout, or Venturer and yet I have managed to be an active leader, trainer, and UC, in the BSA for the last 13 years. I wonder how
    Message 1 of 27 , Aug 14, 2008
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      I was never a Cub Scout, Boy Scout, or Venturer and yet I have managed
      to be an active leader, trainer, and UC, in the BSA for the last 13
      years.

      I wonder how on earth I managed?


      --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Don Wilson" <don-wilson@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > OK, it is true that both the Den Chief Training manual and the Den
      > Chief Handbook quickly lists the "Purposes of Cub Scouting", but
      > neither dedicated any time to insure that the purposes are
      > understood. The den chief duties require "understanding of the Cub
      > Scout program and the differences between Cub Scouting and Boy
      > Scouting." The den chief "promotes Scouting in general and the local
      > troop in particular."
      >
      > Perhaps I am making things too simple, however, I doubt that a youth
      > that has never been a Cub Scout or a Boy Scout would be able to
      > fulfill those requirements.
      >
    • Don Wilson
      Having never been a Cub Scout, Boy Scout or Explorer (Varsity and Venturing did not exist in the 1950 s) and yet served as an active Scoutmaster, Unit
      Message 2 of 27 , Aug 14, 2008
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        Having never been a Cub Scout, Boy Scout or Explorer (Varsity and
        Venturing did not exist in the 1950's) and yet served as an active
        Scoutmaster, Unit Commissioner, trainer, District Training Chair,
        District Commissioner, and District Chairman over the past 20 years,
        I did it the same way you did. I was trained, often under the
        tutelage of Tom Travis, at every opportunity, having been a
        participate in every course available at the council level and have
        delivered training in almost every course. And a den chief that has
        not participated in the Cub Scouting and/or Boy Scouting programs,
        would also need to be trained in order to achieve the main goal of
        assisting the transition of a Scout through the ranks and retention
        in the Scouting program including troop, team and/or crew. Currrent
        material does not provide that training.

        Scouter Hammond is certainly correct. My materials are current. I
        understand what the requirements state. And if your training
        programs for den chief has included a complete understanding of Cub
        Scouting and Boy Scouting programs, then the applicant is certainly
        qualified. We do have to remember that there is a program that falls
        between Cub Scouting and Venturing. That program is Boy Scouting,
        and we are challenged to insure that youth are retained in that
        program.

        See, I knew that I was going to regret writing the post. No offense
        intended.

        YIS

        Don Wilson
        OHC 427

        > I was never a Cub Scout, Boy Scout, or Venturer and yet I have managed
        > to be an active leader, trainer, and UC, in the BSA for the last 13
        > years.
        >
        > I wonder how on earth I managed?
        >
        >
        > --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Don Wilson" <don-wilson@...> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > OK, it is true that both the Den Chief Training manual and the Den
        > > Chief Handbook quickly lists the "Purposes of Cub Scouting", but
        > > neither dedicated any time to insure that the purposes are
        > > understood. The den chief duties require "understanding of the Cub
        > > Scout program and the differences between Cub Scouting and Boy
        > > Scouting." The den chief "promotes Scouting in general and the local
        > > troop in particular."
        > >
        > > Perhaps I am making things too simple, however, I doubt that a youth
        > > that has never been a Cub Scout or a Boy Scout would be able to
        > > fulfill those requirements.
      • Teresa Hall
        I m just amazed that some areas have such a wealth to choose from. There may be a perfect profile for a den chief, but around here it s either take the one
        Message 3 of 27 , Aug 14, 2008
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          I'm just amazed that some areas have such a wealth to choose from. There may
          be a "perfect" profile for a den chief, but around here it's either take the
          one who has an interest and can make the schedule work, or do without.

          Teresa Hall
          Vulcan District Cub Training Coordinator
          Greater AL Council

          On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 4:59 PM, nuts4scouts <nuts4scouts@...> wrote:

          > I was never a Cub Scout, Boy Scout, or Venturer and yet I have managed
          > to be an active leader, trainer, and UC, in the BSA for the last 13
          > years.
          >
          > I wonder how on earth I managed?
          >
          >
          > --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Don Wilson" <don-wilson@...> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > OK, it is true that both the Den Chief Training manual and the Den
          > > Chief Handbook quickly lists the "Purposes of Cub Scouting", but
          > > neither dedicated any time to insure that the purposes are
          > > understood. The den chief duties require "understanding of the Cub
          > > Scout program and the differences between Cub Scouting and Boy
          > > Scouting." The den chief "promotes Scouting in general and the local
          > > troop in particular."
          > >
          > > Perhaps I am making things too simple, however, I doubt that a youth
          > > that has never been a Cub Scout or a Boy Scout would be able to
          > > fulfill those requirements.
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
          > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Olan Watkins
          Don Back in the dark ages when I was a Webelos leader and had a Den Chief from a Troop the idea was that the Den Chief would try to get the Webelos to move
          Message 4 of 27 , Aug 14, 2008
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            Don

            Back in the dark ages when I was a Webelos leader and had a Den Chief from
            a Troop the idea was that the Den Chief would try to get the Webelos to
            move into the Troop as a group and the Den Chief would be their Patrol
            Leader for their first six months to a year.

            In general, the Den Chief position was a young Scout and their first
            leadership position and only a year or two years older than the Webelos.

            Today, if I were a Webelos Leader and had a young lady Venturing member as
            a Den Chief, I guess that I would require that she attend a Den Chief
            training and perhaps even at least the fast start training for Scouts and
            Cubs so that she would understand the Cub and Boy Scout programs.

            Since the young lady would not be a member of a Troop, she could not push
            for moving into any one Troop, but perhaps that might be a good thing.

            I could see it being a possible problem for over night den campouts,
            Webelos Summer Camps, perhaps even for all day den trips to zoos or other
            places for visits.

            Perhaps some one with experience with having a Venturing Den Chief will
            speak up and let us know how it is working out.

            Olan Watkins
          • maria@inkspot.net
            I think I feel the same way, about female den chiefs as I do female Scout Masters. Beggers can t be choosers. If you live in an area with enough boys and men
            Message 5 of 27 , Aug 14, 2008
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              I think I feel the same way, about female den chiefs as I do female
              Scout Masters. Beggers can't be choosers.

              If you live in an area with enough boys and men to do the job -
              great. But if you don't and a woman or a girl will step up to help
              make the program, as long as they are following the program, I don't
              have a problem with it.

              M Hurley


              > I'm just amazed that some areas have such a wealth to choose from. There may
              > be a "perfect" profile for a den chief, but around here it's either take the
              > one who has an interest and can make the schedule work, or do without.
              >
              > Teresa Hall
            • Lisa
              What problems would there be that we wouldn t have with a female den leader? ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Message 6 of 27 , Aug 14, 2008
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                What problems would there be that we wouldn't have with a female den leader?



                Olan Watkins wrote:
                > I could see it being a possible problem for over night den campouts,
                > Webelos Summer Camps, perhaps even for all day den trips to zoos or other
                > places for visits.
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Olan Watkins
                As someone said, in general Den Chiefs are not in super supply, so you pretty much have to take what you can get. Being a Den Chief is not the most popular
                Message 7 of 27 , Aug 15, 2008
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                  As someone said, in general Den Chiefs are not in super supply, so you
                  pretty much have to take what you can get. Being a Den Chief is not the
                  most popular leadership job in a Troop and not too many kids will take the
                  job.

                  A good Den Chief can be worth their weight in gold, or they can just be
                  another kid in the den for the leader to look after.

                  I have been on both sides of the fence, as a Webelos Den Leader with a Den
                  Chief and as a Scout Master trying to get kids to take on the job of Den
                  Chief.

                  Having a Den Chief with a Webelos Den can be the most effective recruiting
                  method that a Troop can have, so it is to the Troops advantage to supply as
                  good a Scout as is possible to have.

                  When I was a Webelos leader, I had a very good Den Chief that set a very
                  good example of how Scouts should act and was a good role model. He acted
                  pretty much the same as a Patrol Leader. We did quite a bit of camping and
                  activities and he did a good job of teaching them how to cook, pitch tents,
                  and so on such that when we moved into the Troop they were able to hit the
                  ground running as Boy Scouts.

                  I guess it would be possible to have a Den Chief with Bear and Wolf Dens,
                  but I don't think I have ever know of one.

                  As some one said with a female den leader, having a female Venturing Den
                  Chief should not be a problem for over night campouts.

                  Olan Watkins
                • Kevin Pate
                  ... Rightly or wrongly, our society and our organization are fine with two or three moms taking some Webelos and a male den chief to the woods, but the fine
                  Message 8 of 27 , Aug 15, 2008
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                    > What problems would there be that we wouldn't have with a female
                    > den leader?

                    Rightly or wrongly, our society and our organization are fine with two or three moms taking some Webelos and a male den chief to the woods, but the fine vanishes rapidly when it is two or three dads taking some Webelos and a female Venturer to the woods.
                  • maria@inkspot.net
                    My understanding is that if there is a female Venturer, than there has to be a female leader, if overnights are involved. I maybe wrong, but I believe that s
                    Message 9 of 27 , Aug 15, 2008
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                      My understanding is that if there is a female Venturer, than there
                      has to be a female leader, if overnights are involved. I maybe wrong,
                      but I believe that's why our council is doing such a push to get
                      woman involved in Venturing.

                      I know groups have had to nearly cancel trips until they got a
                      trained woman to join them.

                      M Hurley
                    • NeilLup@aol.com
                      ... I believe that, per G2SS, if there is a female Venturer as a Den Chief, there would need to be both male and female adult leadership for the event. I
                      Message 10 of 27 , Aug 15, 2008
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                        In a message dated 8/15/08 12:55:47 PM, kevinpate@... writes:


                        > Rightly or wrongly, our society and our organization are fine with two or
                        > three moms taking some Webelos and a male den chief to the woods, but the fine
                        > vanishes rapidly when it is two or three dads taking some Webelos and a
                        > female Venturer to the woods
                        >

                        I believe that, per G2SS, if there is a female Venturer as a Den Chief,
                        there would need to be both male and female adult leadership for the event.
                        I would suggest that a female Venturer and male Cub Scouts would make it a
                        "coed" event.

                        That's not a "problem" it's complying with the guidelines.

                        And I have heard it asked whether is becomes a coed event if there are female
                        adults on a Boy Scout or Cub Scout outing meaning that there would need to be
                        a male adult present too. Not discussing whether it's a good idea or not
                        (it is) but whether it is required by G2SS.


                        Best wishes,

                        Neil Lupton


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                      • Ben
                        This is a topic that recently came up for the various units I m involved with. I m a Cubmaster for a small pack that usually feeds into a pretty large troop
                        Message 11 of 27 , Aug 15, 2008
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                          This is a topic that recently came up for the various units I'm
                          involved with.

                          I'm a Cubmaster for a small pack that usually feeds into a pretty
                          large troop nearby. We utilized a den chief for the first time last
                          year with our Webelos I den. It worked out extremely well.

                          This year, I put in a request to the troop for den chiefs for our
                          Webelos II, Webelos I and Bear dens. All of the boys from the troop
                          will have to be interviewed by the Cub committee before they assume
                          their positions.

                          I also submitted a request to our local crew for Den chiefs for our
                          Wolf and Tiger dens asnd got two female Crew members who
                          volunteered.
                          They will go through the same process as the boys from the troop.

                          Now, in my mind, that's great because I have older scouts who will
                          be able to help out the junior den leaders corral those rowdy Tigers
                          and Wolves. And I've got Boy scouts from the troop who will provide
                          that role model and bridge for the boys who are getting ready to
                          transition over to the Troops. Plus, having Venturing females in
                          uniform at Pack and district events gives the added bonus of
                          promoting Venturing throughout the community.

                          Bottom line is having female youth in leadership positions is a win-
                          win.

                          Starting next month, I'll have den chiefs for each of my dens as
                          well as a "Pack" den chief. "Wait? A what?" you might say.

                          Due to the largeness of our local troop, they have few opportunities
                          for leadership positions for the youth other than the usual. After
                          working with the local scoutmaster, (and a comment during a training
                          session at summer camp) we implemented the idea of having
                          an expierenced den chief serve as a "Pack" chief. Basically, He's
                          the "head" den chief. He'll help out at Pack meetings, fill in for
                          den chiefs when the assigned ones can't make a meeting due to
                          unforseen circumstance or schedule conflicts, he'll also offer
                          advice and leadership to the first year den chiefs as well as
                          checking to make sure they are fulfilling the requirements of the
                          position.

                          Myself and the scoutmaster think it will work out pretty well.
                          Either way, with the Pack chief and the female den chiefs, it'll be
                          a fun year!

                          YiS&V
                          Ben K.

                          Cubmaster - Pack 578
                          MB Counselor - Troop 1717
                          Advisor - Crew 1717
                          I used to be an Antelope....
                        • Lady T
                          Wow!  I m AWESTRUCK! Wish we could get this much participation/involvement in our area! Trish ... From: Ben To:
                          Message 12 of 27 , Aug 15, 2008
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                            Wow!  I'm AWESTRUCK!
                            Wish we could get this much participation/involvement in our area!
                            Trish



                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: Ben <benjamin.klinefelter@...>
                            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 12:12:31 PM
                            Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Digest Number 1854lNeil/Trish.Den Chief


                            This is a topic that recently came up for the various units I'm
                            involved with.

                            I'm a Cubmaster for a small pack that usually feeds into a pretty
                            large troop nearby. We utilized a den chief for the first time last
                            year with our Webelos I den. It worked out extremely well.

                            This year, I put in a request to the troop for den chiefs for our
                            Webelos II, Webelos I and Bear dens. All of the boys from the troop
                            will have to be interviewed by the Cub committee before they assume
                            their positions.

                            I also submitted a request to our local crew for Den chiefs for our
                            Wolf and Tiger dens asnd got two female Crew members who
                            volunteered.
                            They will go through the same process as the boys from the troop.

                            Now, in my mind, that's great because I have older scouts who will
                            be able to help out the junior den leaders corral those rowdy Tigers
                            and Wolves. And I've got Boy scouts from the troop who will provide
                            that role model and bridge for the boys who are getting ready to
                            transition over to the Troops. Plus, having Venturing females in
                            uniform at Pack and district events gives the added bonus of
                            promoting Venturing throughout the community.

                            Bottom line is having female youth in leadership positions is a win-
                            win.

                            Starting next month, I'll have den chiefs for each of my dens as
                            well as a "Pack" den chief. "Wait? A what?" you might say.

                            Due to the largeness of our local troop, they have few opportunities
                            for leadership positions for the youth other than the usual. After
                            working with the local scoutmaster, (and a comment during a training
                            session at summer camp) we implemented the idea of having
                            an expierenced den chief serve as a "Pack" chief. Basically, He's
                            the "head" den chief. He'll help out at Pack meetings, fill in for
                            den chiefs when the assigned ones can't make a meeting due to
                            unforseen circumstance or schedule conflicts, he'll also offer
                            advice and leadership to the first year den chiefs as well as
                            checking to make sure they are fulfilling the requirements of the
                            position.

                            Myself and the scoutmaster think it will work out pretty well.
                            Either way, with the Pack chief and the female den chiefs, it'll be
                            a fun year!

                            YiS&V
                            Ben K.

                            Cubmaster - Pack 578
                            MB Counselor - Troop 1717
                            Advisor - Crew 1717
                            I used to be an Antelope....






                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • ed5870@aol.com
                            In a message dated 8/15/2008 10:59:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, maria@inkspot.net writes: If you live in an area with enough boys and men to do the job -
                            Message 13 of 27 , Aug 16, 2008
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                              In a message dated 8/15/2008 10:59:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                              maria@... writes:

                              If you live in an area with enough boys and men to do the job -
                              great. But if you don't and a woman or a girl will step up to help
                              make the program, as long as they are following the program, I don't
                              have a problem with it.



                              I have known many great female leaders. I think female or male it doesn't
                              matter as long as the leader is trained and follows the program. No begging
                              about it.

                              Ed Harvey
                              Training Chair Dutchess District
                              Every Cub Scout deserves a Trained Leader
                              THE HEART OF SCOUTING IS TRAINING
                              Hudson Valley Council
                              I used to be an Antelope



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