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Re: [Scouter_T] Digest Number 1854lNeil/Trish.Den Chief

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  • Don Wilson
    Have you ever been in a situation where you have to do something knowing full well that you will live to regret it? For me, this Den Chief thing has been like
    Message 1 of 27 , Aug 14, 2008
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      Have you ever been in a situation where you have to do something
      knowing full well that you will live to regret it? For me, this Den
      Chief thing has been like the last piece of stake in a good meal.
      You pop that last bite into your mouth and begin savoring the rich
      steak flavor. However, laced through that bite was a piece of
      gristle. You know, the kind that grows with every chew until you
      think it fills your mouth. And what can you do? Can't talk around
      that now hugh piece of gristle, bad manners to spit it out on your
      plate, can't turn your head and spit it on the ground as we would if
      camping. Best option will be to use your napkin and slip that
      gristle into the napkin while daintily removing the excess juices
      from your face. That is where I am.

      I have reviewed the current Den Chief Handbook (3321B, 2005 printing)
      well, that is the current version at our Scout Shop), and the current
      Den Chief Training manual (34450C which I was given as the most
      current version) and must take a small exception concerning
      qualifications needed by a Den Chief.

      The Den Chief Handbook states that: "As a den chief, you are
      responsible for the following: (Pages 7 & 8)

      Knowing the purposes of Cub Scouting

      Helping boys achieve the purposes of Cub Scouting

      Being the activities assistant in den meetings

      Setting a good example through attitude and uniforming

      Taking part in weekly den meetings

      Assisting the den in its part of the monthly pack meeting program

      Being a friend to the boys in the den

      Meeting as needed with adult leaders"

      Seems rather straight forward, right?

      The Den Chief Training manual expands that list a bit on Page 1.
      " The den chief:
      1) Holds a leadership position in the troop, team, or crew......

      2) Is a model for the boys in the den as well as the entire pack

      3) Promptes Scouting in general and the local troop in particular

      4) Facilitates the transition of Webelos Scouts into Boy Scouting

      "In addition, a trained den chief:
      1)Is capable of effectively assisting the den leader with planning
      and conduction den meetings

      2) Understands the Cub Scouting program and the differences between
      Cub Scouting and Boy Scouting

      3) will be comfortable with the den leader's duties and confident in
      carrying them out

      4) Is familiar with resources for age-appropriate activities for Cub
      Scouts

      5) Has a repertoire of activities that Cub Scouts enjoy"

      OK, it is true that both the Den Chief Training manual and the Den
      Chief Handbook quickly lists the "Purposes of Cub Scouting", but
      neither dedicated any time to insure that the purposes are
      understood. The den chief duties require "understanding of the Cub
      Scout program and the differences between Cub Scouting and Boy
      Scouting." The den chief "promotes Scouting in general and the local
      troop in particular."

      Perhaps I am making things too simple, however, I doubt that a youth
      that has never been a Cub Scout or a Boy Scout would be able to
      fulfill those requirements.

      One of my goals as a Scoutmaster was to have a den chief working with
      Webelos Scouts (if I had only one den chief) to encourage them to
      transition into Boy Scouting, where the den chief would be present so
      that the new Boy Scout did not feel as if he were in a room of
      strange big boys. I am 100% certain that having a Boy Scout with
      whom the new Scouts already know and has formed a friendship will
      insure that retention is not a problem in the troop.

      So, if a 14 year old, regardless of gender, joins a team or crew
      without having the experience of Cub Scouting or Boy Scouting, how
      would they be able to fulfill the requirements of a den chief?

      OK, I spit the ball of gristle into my napkin. Please take no
      offense as none was intended. However, please have great sympathy
      with the council training chairman that has had to put up with me for
      almost 20 years.

      Don Wilson
      OHC 420


      So, if they have indeed removed the words "who has been a boy scout," am I safe in assuming that a male Venturer who has never had anything to do with scouting prior to Venturing is now able to be a den chief?
      Trish



      ----- Original Message ----
      From: "NeilLup@..." <NeilLup@...>
      To: staci_30@...; scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 12:54:47 PM
      Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Digest Number 1854


      Hello Staci and Trish,

      I just checked the qualifications as currently listed on the BSA National web
      site for Den Chief. They are the following:

      Qualifications: Is an older Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, or Venturer. Selected
      by the senior patrol leader and Scoutmaster, Varsity Scout Coach, or Venturing
      Advisor at the request of the Cubmaster. Approved by the Cubmaster and pack
      committeefor recommendation to the den leader. Registered as a youth
      member of
      a troop, team, or crew.

      I note the very key absence in these qualifications of the words "who
      has
      beena Boy Scout." Perhaps those words were there previously, but
      they are
      not now. With my normal interpretation of "If the guidelines don't
      say you
      can'tdo something, you can" then I would say that these
      qualifications
      wouldinclude female Venturers. Go for it!

      Bestwishes,

      NeilLupton

      **************
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      [Non-textportions of this message have been removed]


      -- Success is not the destination, it is the journey.
    • nuts4scouts
      I was never a Cub Scout, Boy Scout, or Venturer and yet I have managed to be an active leader, trainer, and UC, in the BSA for the last 13 years. I wonder how
      Message 2 of 27 , Aug 14, 2008
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        I was never a Cub Scout, Boy Scout, or Venturer and yet I have managed
        to be an active leader, trainer, and UC, in the BSA for the last 13
        years.

        I wonder how on earth I managed?


        --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Don Wilson" <don-wilson@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > OK, it is true that both the Den Chief Training manual and the Den
        > Chief Handbook quickly lists the "Purposes of Cub Scouting", but
        > neither dedicated any time to insure that the purposes are
        > understood. The den chief duties require "understanding of the Cub
        > Scout program and the differences between Cub Scouting and Boy
        > Scouting." The den chief "promotes Scouting in general and the local
        > troop in particular."
        >
        > Perhaps I am making things too simple, however, I doubt that a youth
        > that has never been a Cub Scout or a Boy Scout would be able to
        > fulfill those requirements.
        >
      • Don Wilson
        Having never been a Cub Scout, Boy Scout or Explorer (Varsity and Venturing did not exist in the 1950 s) and yet served as an active Scoutmaster, Unit
        Message 3 of 27 , Aug 14, 2008
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          Having never been a Cub Scout, Boy Scout or Explorer (Varsity and
          Venturing did not exist in the 1950's) and yet served as an active
          Scoutmaster, Unit Commissioner, trainer, District Training Chair,
          District Commissioner, and District Chairman over the past 20 years,
          I did it the same way you did. I was trained, often under the
          tutelage of Tom Travis, at every opportunity, having been a
          participate in every course available at the council level and have
          delivered training in almost every course. And a den chief that has
          not participated in the Cub Scouting and/or Boy Scouting programs,
          would also need to be trained in order to achieve the main goal of
          assisting the transition of a Scout through the ranks and retention
          in the Scouting program including troop, team and/or crew. Currrent
          material does not provide that training.

          Scouter Hammond is certainly correct. My materials are current. I
          understand what the requirements state. And if your training
          programs for den chief has included a complete understanding of Cub
          Scouting and Boy Scouting programs, then the applicant is certainly
          qualified. We do have to remember that there is a program that falls
          between Cub Scouting and Venturing. That program is Boy Scouting,
          and we are challenged to insure that youth are retained in that
          program.

          See, I knew that I was going to regret writing the post. No offense
          intended.

          YIS

          Don Wilson
          OHC 427

          > I was never a Cub Scout, Boy Scout, or Venturer and yet I have managed
          > to be an active leader, trainer, and UC, in the BSA for the last 13
          > years.
          >
          > I wonder how on earth I managed?
          >
          >
          > --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Don Wilson" <don-wilson@...> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > OK, it is true that both the Den Chief Training manual and the Den
          > > Chief Handbook quickly lists the "Purposes of Cub Scouting", but
          > > neither dedicated any time to insure that the purposes are
          > > understood. The den chief duties require "understanding of the Cub
          > > Scout program and the differences between Cub Scouting and Boy
          > > Scouting." The den chief "promotes Scouting in general and the local
          > > troop in particular."
          > >
          > > Perhaps I am making things too simple, however, I doubt that a youth
          > > that has never been a Cub Scout or a Boy Scout would be able to
          > > fulfill those requirements.
        • Teresa Hall
          I m just amazed that some areas have such a wealth to choose from. There may be a perfect profile for a den chief, but around here it s either take the one
          Message 4 of 27 , Aug 14, 2008
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            I'm just amazed that some areas have such a wealth to choose from. There may
            be a "perfect" profile for a den chief, but around here it's either take the
            one who has an interest and can make the schedule work, or do without.

            Teresa Hall
            Vulcan District Cub Training Coordinator
            Greater AL Council

            On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 4:59 PM, nuts4scouts <nuts4scouts@...> wrote:

            > I was never a Cub Scout, Boy Scout, or Venturer and yet I have managed
            > to be an active leader, trainer, and UC, in the BSA for the last 13
            > years.
            >
            > I wonder how on earth I managed?
            >
            >
            > --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Don Wilson" <don-wilson@...> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > OK, it is true that both the Den Chief Training manual and the Den
            > > Chief Handbook quickly lists the "Purposes of Cub Scouting", but
            > > neither dedicated any time to insure that the purposes are
            > > understood. The den chief duties require "understanding of the Cub
            > > Scout program and the differences between Cub Scouting and Boy
            > > Scouting." The den chief "promotes Scouting in general and the local
            > > troop in particular."
            > >
            > > Perhaps I am making things too simple, however, I doubt that a youth
            > > that has never been a Cub Scout or a Boy Scout would be able to
            > > fulfill those requirements.
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
            > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Olan Watkins
            Don Back in the dark ages when I was a Webelos leader and had a Den Chief from a Troop the idea was that the Den Chief would try to get the Webelos to move
            Message 5 of 27 , Aug 14, 2008
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              Don

              Back in the dark ages when I was a Webelos leader and had a Den Chief from
              a Troop the idea was that the Den Chief would try to get the Webelos to
              move into the Troop as a group and the Den Chief would be their Patrol
              Leader for their first six months to a year.

              In general, the Den Chief position was a young Scout and their first
              leadership position and only a year or two years older than the Webelos.

              Today, if I were a Webelos Leader and had a young lady Venturing member as
              a Den Chief, I guess that I would require that she attend a Den Chief
              training and perhaps even at least the fast start training for Scouts and
              Cubs so that she would understand the Cub and Boy Scout programs.

              Since the young lady would not be a member of a Troop, she could not push
              for moving into any one Troop, but perhaps that might be a good thing.

              I could see it being a possible problem for over night den campouts,
              Webelos Summer Camps, perhaps even for all day den trips to zoos or other
              places for visits.

              Perhaps some one with experience with having a Venturing Den Chief will
              speak up and let us know how it is working out.

              Olan Watkins
            • maria@inkspot.net
              I think I feel the same way, about female den chiefs as I do female Scout Masters. Beggers can t be choosers. If you live in an area with enough boys and men
              Message 6 of 27 , Aug 14, 2008
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                I think I feel the same way, about female den chiefs as I do female
                Scout Masters. Beggers can't be choosers.

                If you live in an area with enough boys and men to do the job -
                great. But if you don't and a woman or a girl will step up to help
                make the program, as long as they are following the program, I don't
                have a problem with it.

                M Hurley


                > I'm just amazed that some areas have such a wealth to choose from. There may
                > be a "perfect" profile for a den chief, but around here it's either take the
                > one who has an interest and can make the schedule work, or do without.
                >
                > Teresa Hall
              • Lisa
                What problems would there be that we wouldn t have with a female den leader? ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                Message 7 of 27 , Aug 14, 2008
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                  What problems would there be that we wouldn't have with a female den leader?



                  Olan Watkins wrote:
                  > I could see it being a possible problem for over night den campouts,
                  > Webelos Summer Camps, perhaps even for all day den trips to zoos or other
                  > places for visits.
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Olan Watkins
                  As someone said, in general Den Chiefs are not in super supply, so you pretty much have to take what you can get. Being a Den Chief is not the most popular
                  Message 8 of 27 , Aug 15, 2008
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                    As someone said, in general Den Chiefs are not in super supply, so you
                    pretty much have to take what you can get. Being a Den Chief is not the
                    most popular leadership job in a Troop and not too many kids will take the
                    job.

                    A good Den Chief can be worth their weight in gold, or they can just be
                    another kid in the den for the leader to look after.

                    I have been on both sides of the fence, as a Webelos Den Leader with a Den
                    Chief and as a Scout Master trying to get kids to take on the job of Den
                    Chief.

                    Having a Den Chief with a Webelos Den can be the most effective recruiting
                    method that a Troop can have, so it is to the Troops advantage to supply as
                    good a Scout as is possible to have.

                    When I was a Webelos leader, I had a very good Den Chief that set a very
                    good example of how Scouts should act and was a good role model. He acted
                    pretty much the same as a Patrol Leader. We did quite a bit of camping and
                    activities and he did a good job of teaching them how to cook, pitch tents,
                    and so on such that when we moved into the Troop they were able to hit the
                    ground running as Boy Scouts.

                    I guess it would be possible to have a Den Chief with Bear and Wolf Dens,
                    but I don't think I have ever know of one.

                    As some one said with a female den leader, having a female Venturing Den
                    Chief should not be a problem for over night campouts.

                    Olan Watkins
                  • Kevin Pate
                    ... Rightly or wrongly, our society and our organization are fine with two or three moms taking some Webelos and a male den chief to the woods, but the fine
                    Message 9 of 27 , Aug 15, 2008
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                      > What problems would there be that we wouldn't have with a female
                      > den leader?

                      Rightly or wrongly, our society and our organization are fine with two or three moms taking some Webelos and a male den chief to the woods, but the fine vanishes rapidly when it is two or three dads taking some Webelos and a female Venturer to the woods.
                    • maria@inkspot.net
                      My understanding is that if there is a female Venturer, than there has to be a female leader, if overnights are involved. I maybe wrong, but I believe that s
                      Message 10 of 27 , Aug 15, 2008
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                        My understanding is that if there is a female Venturer, than there
                        has to be a female leader, if overnights are involved. I maybe wrong,
                        but I believe that's why our council is doing such a push to get
                        woman involved in Venturing.

                        I know groups have had to nearly cancel trips until they got a
                        trained woman to join them.

                        M Hurley
                      • NeilLup@aol.com
                        ... I believe that, per G2SS, if there is a female Venturer as a Den Chief, there would need to be both male and female adult leadership for the event. I
                        Message 11 of 27 , Aug 15, 2008
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                          In a message dated 8/15/08 12:55:47 PM, kevinpate@... writes:


                          > Rightly or wrongly, our society and our organization are fine with two or
                          > three moms taking some Webelos and a male den chief to the woods, but the fine
                          > vanishes rapidly when it is two or three dads taking some Webelos and a
                          > female Venturer to the woods
                          >

                          I believe that, per G2SS, if there is a female Venturer as a Den Chief,
                          there would need to be both male and female adult leadership for the event.
                          I would suggest that a female Venturer and male Cub Scouts would make it a
                          "coed" event.

                          That's not a "problem" it's complying with the guidelines.

                          And I have heard it asked whether is becomes a coed event if there are female
                          adults on a Boy Scout or Cub Scout outing meaning that there would need to be
                          a male adult present too. Not discussing whether it's a good idea or not
                          (it is) but whether it is required by G2SS.


                          Best wishes,

                          Neil Lupton


                          **************
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                        • Ben
                          This is a topic that recently came up for the various units I m involved with. I m a Cubmaster for a small pack that usually feeds into a pretty large troop
                          Message 12 of 27 , Aug 15, 2008
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                            This is a topic that recently came up for the various units I'm
                            involved with.

                            I'm a Cubmaster for a small pack that usually feeds into a pretty
                            large troop nearby. We utilized a den chief for the first time last
                            year with our Webelos I den. It worked out extremely well.

                            This year, I put in a request to the troop for den chiefs for our
                            Webelos II, Webelos I and Bear dens. All of the boys from the troop
                            will have to be interviewed by the Cub committee before they assume
                            their positions.

                            I also submitted a request to our local crew for Den chiefs for our
                            Wolf and Tiger dens asnd got two female Crew members who
                            volunteered.
                            They will go through the same process as the boys from the troop.

                            Now, in my mind, that's great because I have older scouts who will
                            be able to help out the junior den leaders corral those rowdy Tigers
                            and Wolves. And I've got Boy scouts from the troop who will provide
                            that role model and bridge for the boys who are getting ready to
                            transition over to the Troops. Plus, having Venturing females in
                            uniform at Pack and district events gives the added bonus of
                            promoting Venturing throughout the community.

                            Bottom line is having female youth in leadership positions is a win-
                            win.

                            Starting next month, I'll have den chiefs for each of my dens as
                            well as a "Pack" den chief. "Wait? A what?" you might say.

                            Due to the largeness of our local troop, they have few opportunities
                            for leadership positions for the youth other than the usual. After
                            working with the local scoutmaster, (and a comment during a training
                            session at summer camp) we implemented the idea of having
                            an expierenced den chief serve as a "Pack" chief. Basically, He's
                            the "head" den chief. He'll help out at Pack meetings, fill in for
                            den chiefs when the assigned ones can't make a meeting due to
                            unforseen circumstance or schedule conflicts, he'll also offer
                            advice and leadership to the first year den chiefs as well as
                            checking to make sure they are fulfilling the requirements of the
                            position.

                            Myself and the scoutmaster think it will work out pretty well.
                            Either way, with the Pack chief and the female den chiefs, it'll be
                            a fun year!

                            YiS&V
                            Ben K.

                            Cubmaster - Pack 578
                            MB Counselor - Troop 1717
                            Advisor - Crew 1717
                            I used to be an Antelope....
                          • Lady T
                            Wow!  I m AWESTRUCK! Wish we could get this much participation/involvement in our area! Trish ... From: Ben To:
                            Message 13 of 27 , Aug 15, 2008
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                              Wow!  I'm AWESTRUCK!
                              Wish we could get this much participation/involvement in our area!
                              Trish



                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: Ben <benjamin.klinefelter@...>
                              To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 12:12:31 PM
                              Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Digest Number 1854lNeil/Trish.Den Chief


                              This is a topic that recently came up for the various units I'm
                              involved with.

                              I'm a Cubmaster for a small pack that usually feeds into a pretty
                              large troop nearby. We utilized a den chief for the first time last
                              year with our Webelos I den. It worked out extremely well.

                              This year, I put in a request to the troop for den chiefs for our
                              Webelos II, Webelos I and Bear dens. All of the boys from the troop
                              will have to be interviewed by the Cub committee before they assume
                              their positions.

                              I also submitted a request to our local crew for Den chiefs for our
                              Wolf and Tiger dens asnd got two female Crew members who
                              volunteered.
                              They will go through the same process as the boys from the troop.

                              Now, in my mind, that's great because I have older scouts who will
                              be able to help out the junior den leaders corral those rowdy Tigers
                              and Wolves. And I've got Boy scouts from the troop who will provide
                              that role model and bridge for the boys who are getting ready to
                              transition over to the Troops. Plus, having Venturing females in
                              uniform at Pack and district events gives the added bonus of
                              promoting Venturing throughout the community.

                              Bottom line is having female youth in leadership positions is a win-
                              win.

                              Starting next month, I'll have den chiefs for each of my dens as
                              well as a "Pack" den chief. "Wait? A what?" you might say.

                              Due to the largeness of our local troop, they have few opportunities
                              for leadership positions for the youth other than the usual. After
                              working with the local scoutmaster, (and a comment during a training
                              session at summer camp) we implemented the idea of having
                              an expierenced den chief serve as a "Pack" chief. Basically, He's
                              the "head" den chief. He'll help out at Pack meetings, fill in for
                              den chiefs when the assigned ones can't make a meeting due to
                              unforseen circumstance or schedule conflicts, he'll also offer
                              advice and leadership to the first year den chiefs as well as
                              checking to make sure they are fulfilling the requirements of the
                              position.

                              Myself and the scoutmaster think it will work out pretty well.
                              Either way, with the Pack chief and the female den chiefs, it'll be
                              a fun year!

                              YiS&V
                              Ben K.

                              Cubmaster - Pack 578
                              MB Counselor - Troop 1717
                              Advisor - Crew 1717
                              I used to be an Antelope....






                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • ed5870@aol.com
                              In a message dated 8/15/2008 10:59:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, maria@inkspot.net writes: If you live in an area with enough boys and men to do the job -
                              Message 14 of 27 , Aug 16, 2008
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                                In a message dated 8/15/2008 10:59:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                                maria@... writes:

                                If you live in an area with enough boys and men to do the job -
                                great. But if you don't and a woman or a girl will step up to help
                                make the program, as long as they are following the program, I don't
                                have a problem with it.



                                I have known many great female leaders. I think female or male it doesn't
                                matter as long as the leader is trained and follows the program. No begging
                                about it.

                                Ed Harvey
                                Training Chair Dutchess District
                                Every Cub Scout deserves a Trained Leader
                                THE HEART OF SCOUTING IS TRAINING
                                Hudson Valley Council
                                I used to be an Antelope



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