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Re: [Scouter_T] Digest Number 1854

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  • ed5870@aol.com
    Tnak you Jamie I was mis-led I see that the requirement that the Den Leader was a Boy Scout has been removed and I think that was a great idea. In a message
    Message 1 of 27 , Aug 14 4:02 AM
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      Tnak you Jamie I was mis-led I see that the requirement that the Den Leader
      was a Boy Scout has been removed and I think that was a great idea.


      In a message dated 8/12/2008 3:37:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
      JNDunnMN@... writes:




      "den aide" as an official position in a Cub Scout pack has been gone for
      many (10?) years. It disappeared from the Cub Scout leader book several
      editions
      ago. The requirement that a Venturer have been a Boy Scout in order to be a
      Den Chief was eliminated 2-3 years ago. Female Venturers *can* be den Chiefs.

      YiS,
      Jamie Niss Dunn
      Pack Trainer, P. 512
      Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
      Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner
      Cub Scout Training Coordinator
      3 Rivers District
      Scouting. Good for Life.

      In a message dated 8/12/2008 2:25:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
      _ed5870@..._ (mailto:ed5870@...) writes:

      >but a girl can be a Den Aide.

      ************************<WBR>**Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits
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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







      **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
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    • Don Wilson
      Have you ever been in a situation where you have to do something knowing full well that you will live to regret it? For me, this Den Chief thing has been like
      Message 2 of 27 , Aug 14 1:29 PM
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        Have you ever been in a situation where you have to do something
        knowing full well that you will live to regret it? For me, this Den
        Chief thing has been like the last piece of stake in a good meal.
        You pop that last bite into your mouth and begin savoring the rich
        steak flavor. However, laced through that bite was a piece of
        gristle. You know, the kind that grows with every chew until you
        think it fills your mouth. And what can you do? Can't talk around
        that now hugh piece of gristle, bad manners to spit it out on your
        plate, can't turn your head and spit it on the ground as we would if
        camping. Best option will be to use your napkin and slip that
        gristle into the napkin while daintily removing the excess juices
        from your face. That is where I am.

        I have reviewed the current Den Chief Handbook (3321B, 2005 printing)
        well, that is the current version at our Scout Shop), and the current
        Den Chief Training manual (34450C which I was given as the most
        current version) and must take a small exception concerning
        qualifications needed by a Den Chief.

        The Den Chief Handbook states that: "As a den chief, you are
        responsible for the following: (Pages 7 & 8)

        Knowing the purposes of Cub Scouting

        Helping boys achieve the purposes of Cub Scouting

        Being the activities assistant in den meetings

        Setting a good example through attitude and uniforming

        Taking part in weekly den meetings

        Assisting the den in its part of the monthly pack meeting program

        Being a friend to the boys in the den

        Meeting as needed with adult leaders"

        Seems rather straight forward, right?

        The Den Chief Training manual expands that list a bit on Page 1.
        " The den chief:
        1) Holds a leadership position in the troop, team, or crew......

        2) Is a model for the boys in the den as well as the entire pack

        3) Promptes Scouting in general and the local troop in particular

        4) Facilitates the transition of Webelos Scouts into Boy Scouting

        "In addition, a trained den chief:
        1)Is capable of effectively assisting the den leader with planning
        and conduction den meetings

        2) Understands the Cub Scouting program and the differences between
        Cub Scouting and Boy Scouting

        3) will be comfortable with the den leader's duties and confident in
        carrying them out

        4) Is familiar with resources for age-appropriate activities for Cub
        Scouts

        5) Has a repertoire of activities that Cub Scouts enjoy"

        OK, it is true that both the Den Chief Training manual and the Den
        Chief Handbook quickly lists the "Purposes of Cub Scouting", but
        neither dedicated any time to insure that the purposes are
        understood. The den chief duties require "understanding of the Cub
        Scout program and the differences between Cub Scouting and Boy
        Scouting." The den chief "promotes Scouting in general and the local
        troop in particular."

        Perhaps I am making things too simple, however, I doubt that a youth
        that has never been a Cub Scout or a Boy Scout would be able to
        fulfill those requirements.

        One of my goals as a Scoutmaster was to have a den chief working with
        Webelos Scouts (if I had only one den chief) to encourage them to
        transition into Boy Scouting, where the den chief would be present so
        that the new Boy Scout did not feel as if he were in a room of
        strange big boys. I am 100% certain that having a Boy Scout with
        whom the new Scouts already know and has formed a friendship will
        insure that retention is not a problem in the troop.

        So, if a 14 year old, regardless of gender, joins a team or crew
        without having the experience of Cub Scouting or Boy Scouting, how
        would they be able to fulfill the requirements of a den chief?

        OK, I spit the ball of gristle into my napkin. Please take no
        offense as none was intended. However, please have great sympathy
        with the council training chairman that has had to put up with me for
        almost 20 years.

        Don Wilson
        OHC 420


        So, if they have indeed removed the words "who has been a boy scout," am I safe in assuming that a male Venturer who has never had anything to do with scouting prior to Venturing is now able to be a den chief?
        Trish



        ----- Original Message ----
        From: "NeilLup@..." <NeilLup@...>
        To: staci_30@...; scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 12:54:47 PM
        Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Digest Number 1854


        Hello Staci and Trish,

        I just checked the qualifications as currently listed on the BSA National web
        site for Den Chief. They are the following:

        Qualifications: Is an older Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, or Venturer. Selected
        by the senior patrol leader and Scoutmaster, Varsity Scout Coach, or Venturing
        Advisor at the request of the Cubmaster. Approved by the Cubmaster and pack
        committeefor recommendation to the den leader. Registered as a youth
        member of
        a troop, team, or crew.

        I note the very key absence in these qualifications of the words "who
        has
        beena Boy Scout." Perhaps those words were there previously, but
        they are
        not now. With my normal interpretation of "If the guidelines don't
        say you
        can'tdo something, you can" then I would say that these
        qualifications
        wouldinclude female Venturers. Go for it!

        Bestwishes,

        NeilLupton

        **************
        Lookingfor a car that's sporty, fun and fits in
        yourbudget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.

        (http://autos.aol.com/cars- BMW-128-2008/ expert-review?
        ncid=aolaut00050 000000017 )

        [Non-textportions of this message have been removed]




        [Non-textportions of this message have been removed]


        -- Success is not the destination, it is the journey.
      • nuts4scouts
        I was never a Cub Scout, Boy Scout, or Venturer and yet I have managed to be an active leader, trainer, and UC, in the BSA for the last 13 years. I wonder how
        Message 3 of 27 , Aug 14 2:59 PM
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          I was never a Cub Scout, Boy Scout, or Venturer and yet I have managed
          to be an active leader, trainer, and UC, in the BSA for the last 13
          years.

          I wonder how on earth I managed?


          --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Don Wilson" <don-wilson@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > OK, it is true that both the Den Chief Training manual and the Den
          > Chief Handbook quickly lists the "Purposes of Cub Scouting", but
          > neither dedicated any time to insure that the purposes are
          > understood. The den chief duties require "understanding of the Cub
          > Scout program and the differences between Cub Scouting and Boy
          > Scouting." The den chief "promotes Scouting in general and the local
          > troop in particular."
          >
          > Perhaps I am making things too simple, however, I doubt that a youth
          > that has never been a Cub Scout or a Boy Scout would be able to
          > fulfill those requirements.
          >
        • Don Wilson
          Having never been a Cub Scout, Boy Scout or Explorer (Varsity and Venturing did not exist in the 1950 s) and yet served as an active Scoutmaster, Unit
          Message 4 of 27 , Aug 14 4:00 PM
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            Having never been a Cub Scout, Boy Scout or Explorer (Varsity and
            Venturing did not exist in the 1950's) and yet served as an active
            Scoutmaster, Unit Commissioner, trainer, District Training Chair,
            District Commissioner, and District Chairman over the past 20 years,
            I did it the same way you did. I was trained, often under the
            tutelage of Tom Travis, at every opportunity, having been a
            participate in every course available at the council level and have
            delivered training in almost every course. And a den chief that has
            not participated in the Cub Scouting and/or Boy Scouting programs,
            would also need to be trained in order to achieve the main goal of
            assisting the transition of a Scout through the ranks and retention
            in the Scouting program including troop, team and/or crew. Currrent
            material does not provide that training.

            Scouter Hammond is certainly correct. My materials are current. I
            understand what the requirements state. And if your training
            programs for den chief has included a complete understanding of Cub
            Scouting and Boy Scouting programs, then the applicant is certainly
            qualified. We do have to remember that there is a program that falls
            between Cub Scouting and Venturing. That program is Boy Scouting,
            and we are challenged to insure that youth are retained in that
            program.

            See, I knew that I was going to regret writing the post. No offense
            intended.

            YIS

            Don Wilson
            OHC 427

            > I was never a Cub Scout, Boy Scout, or Venturer and yet I have managed
            > to be an active leader, trainer, and UC, in the BSA for the last 13
            > years.
            >
            > I wonder how on earth I managed?
            >
            >
            > --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Don Wilson" <don-wilson@...> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > OK, it is true that both the Den Chief Training manual and the Den
            > > Chief Handbook quickly lists the "Purposes of Cub Scouting", but
            > > neither dedicated any time to insure that the purposes are
            > > understood. The den chief duties require "understanding of the Cub
            > > Scout program and the differences between Cub Scouting and Boy
            > > Scouting." The den chief "promotes Scouting in general and the local
            > > troop in particular."
            > >
            > > Perhaps I am making things too simple, however, I doubt that a youth
            > > that has never been a Cub Scout or a Boy Scout would be able to
            > > fulfill those requirements.
          • Teresa Hall
            I m just amazed that some areas have such a wealth to choose from. There may be a perfect profile for a den chief, but around here it s either take the one
            Message 5 of 27 , Aug 14 5:16 PM
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              I'm just amazed that some areas have such a wealth to choose from. There may
              be a "perfect" profile for a den chief, but around here it's either take the
              one who has an interest and can make the schedule work, or do without.

              Teresa Hall
              Vulcan District Cub Training Coordinator
              Greater AL Council

              On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 4:59 PM, nuts4scouts <nuts4scouts@...> wrote:

              > I was never a Cub Scout, Boy Scout, or Venturer and yet I have managed
              > to be an active leader, trainer, and UC, in the BSA for the last 13
              > years.
              >
              > I wonder how on earth I managed?
              >
              >
              > --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Don Wilson" <don-wilson@...> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > OK, it is true that both the Den Chief Training manual and the Den
              > > Chief Handbook quickly lists the "Purposes of Cub Scouting", but
              > > neither dedicated any time to insure that the purposes are
              > > understood. The den chief duties require "understanding of the Cub
              > > Scout program and the differences between Cub Scouting and Boy
              > > Scouting." The den chief "promotes Scouting in general and the local
              > > troop in particular."
              > >
              > > Perhaps I am making things too simple, however, I doubt that a youth
              > > that has never been a Cub Scout or a Boy Scout would be able to
              > > fulfill those requirements.
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
              > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Olan Watkins
              Don Back in the dark ages when I was a Webelos leader and had a Den Chief from a Troop the idea was that the Den Chief would try to get the Webelos to move
              Message 6 of 27 , Aug 14 5:21 PM
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                Don

                Back in the dark ages when I was a Webelos leader and had a Den Chief from
                a Troop the idea was that the Den Chief would try to get the Webelos to
                move into the Troop as a group and the Den Chief would be their Patrol
                Leader for their first six months to a year.

                In general, the Den Chief position was a young Scout and their first
                leadership position and only a year or two years older than the Webelos.

                Today, if I were a Webelos Leader and had a young lady Venturing member as
                a Den Chief, I guess that I would require that she attend a Den Chief
                training and perhaps even at least the fast start training for Scouts and
                Cubs so that she would understand the Cub and Boy Scout programs.

                Since the young lady would not be a member of a Troop, she could not push
                for moving into any one Troop, but perhaps that might be a good thing.

                I could see it being a possible problem for over night den campouts,
                Webelos Summer Camps, perhaps even for all day den trips to zoos or other
                places for visits.

                Perhaps some one with experience with having a Venturing Den Chief will
                speak up and let us know how it is working out.

                Olan Watkins
              • maria@inkspot.net
                I think I feel the same way, about female den chiefs as I do female Scout Masters. Beggers can t be choosers. If you live in an area with enough boys and men
                Message 7 of 27 , Aug 14 6:03 PM
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                  I think I feel the same way, about female den chiefs as I do female
                  Scout Masters. Beggers can't be choosers.

                  If you live in an area with enough boys and men to do the job -
                  great. But if you don't and a woman or a girl will step up to help
                  make the program, as long as they are following the program, I don't
                  have a problem with it.

                  M Hurley


                  > I'm just amazed that some areas have such a wealth to choose from. There may
                  > be a "perfect" profile for a den chief, but around here it's either take the
                  > one who has an interest and can make the schedule work, or do without.
                  >
                  > Teresa Hall
                • Lisa
                  What problems would there be that we wouldn t have with a female den leader? ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Message 8 of 27 , Aug 14 7:08 PM
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                    What problems would there be that we wouldn't have with a female den leader?



                    Olan Watkins wrote:
                    > I could see it being a possible problem for over night den campouts,
                    > Webelos Summer Camps, perhaps even for all day den trips to zoos or other
                    > places for visits.
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Olan Watkins
                    As someone said, in general Den Chiefs are not in super supply, so you pretty much have to take what you can get. Being a Den Chief is not the most popular
                    Message 9 of 27 , Aug 15 9:51 AM
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                      As someone said, in general Den Chiefs are not in super supply, so you
                      pretty much have to take what you can get. Being a Den Chief is not the
                      most popular leadership job in a Troop and not too many kids will take the
                      job.

                      A good Den Chief can be worth their weight in gold, or they can just be
                      another kid in the den for the leader to look after.

                      I have been on both sides of the fence, as a Webelos Den Leader with a Den
                      Chief and as a Scout Master trying to get kids to take on the job of Den
                      Chief.

                      Having a Den Chief with a Webelos Den can be the most effective recruiting
                      method that a Troop can have, so it is to the Troops advantage to supply as
                      good a Scout as is possible to have.

                      When I was a Webelos leader, I had a very good Den Chief that set a very
                      good example of how Scouts should act and was a good role model. He acted
                      pretty much the same as a Patrol Leader. We did quite a bit of camping and
                      activities and he did a good job of teaching them how to cook, pitch tents,
                      and so on such that when we moved into the Troop they were able to hit the
                      ground running as Boy Scouts.

                      I guess it would be possible to have a Den Chief with Bear and Wolf Dens,
                      but I don't think I have ever know of one.

                      As some one said with a female den leader, having a female Venturing Den
                      Chief should not be a problem for over night campouts.

                      Olan Watkins
                    • Kevin Pate
                      ... Rightly or wrongly, our society and our organization are fine with two or three moms taking some Webelos and a male den chief to the woods, but the fine
                      Message 10 of 27 , Aug 15 9:55 AM
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                        > What problems would there be that we wouldn't have with a female
                        > den leader?

                        Rightly or wrongly, our society and our organization are fine with two or three moms taking some Webelos and a male den chief to the woods, but the fine vanishes rapidly when it is two or three dads taking some Webelos and a female Venturer to the woods.
                      • maria@inkspot.net
                        My understanding is that if there is a female Venturer, than there has to be a female leader, if overnights are involved. I maybe wrong, but I believe that s
                        Message 11 of 27 , Aug 15 10:02 AM
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                          My understanding is that if there is a female Venturer, than there
                          has to be a female leader, if overnights are involved. I maybe wrong,
                          but I believe that's why our council is doing such a push to get
                          woman involved in Venturing.

                          I know groups have had to nearly cancel trips until they got a
                          trained woman to join them.

                          M Hurley
                        • NeilLup@aol.com
                          ... I believe that, per G2SS, if there is a female Venturer as a Den Chief, there would need to be both male and female adult leadership for the event. I
                          Message 12 of 27 , Aug 15 10:02 AM
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                            In a message dated 8/15/08 12:55:47 PM, kevinpate@... writes:


                            > Rightly or wrongly, our society and our organization are fine with two or
                            > three moms taking some Webelos and a male den chief to the woods, but the fine
                            > vanishes rapidly when it is two or three dads taking some Webelos and a
                            > female Venturer to the woods
                            >

                            I believe that, per G2SS, if there is a female Venturer as a Den Chief,
                            there would need to be both male and female adult leadership for the event.
                            I would suggest that a female Venturer and male Cub Scouts would make it a
                            "coed" event.

                            That's not a "problem" it's complying with the guidelines.

                            And I have heard it asked whether is becomes a coed event if there are female
                            adults on a Boy Scout or Cub Scout outing meaning that there would need to be
                            a male adult present too. Not discussing whether it's a good idea or not
                            (it is) but whether it is required by G2SS.


                            Best wishes,

                            Neil Lupton


                            **************
                            Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in
                            your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.

                            (http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 )


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                          • Ben
                            This is a topic that recently came up for the various units I m involved with. I m a Cubmaster for a small pack that usually feeds into a pretty large troop
                            Message 13 of 27 , Aug 15 10:12 AM
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                              This is a topic that recently came up for the various units I'm
                              involved with.

                              I'm a Cubmaster for a small pack that usually feeds into a pretty
                              large troop nearby. We utilized a den chief for the first time last
                              year with our Webelos I den. It worked out extremely well.

                              This year, I put in a request to the troop for den chiefs for our
                              Webelos II, Webelos I and Bear dens. All of the boys from the troop
                              will have to be interviewed by the Cub committee before they assume
                              their positions.

                              I also submitted a request to our local crew for Den chiefs for our
                              Wolf and Tiger dens asnd got two female Crew members who
                              volunteered.
                              They will go through the same process as the boys from the troop.

                              Now, in my mind, that's great because I have older scouts who will
                              be able to help out the junior den leaders corral those rowdy Tigers
                              and Wolves. And I've got Boy scouts from the troop who will provide
                              that role model and bridge for the boys who are getting ready to
                              transition over to the Troops. Plus, having Venturing females in
                              uniform at Pack and district events gives the added bonus of
                              promoting Venturing throughout the community.

                              Bottom line is having female youth in leadership positions is a win-
                              win.

                              Starting next month, I'll have den chiefs for each of my dens as
                              well as a "Pack" den chief. "Wait? A what?" you might say.

                              Due to the largeness of our local troop, they have few opportunities
                              for leadership positions for the youth other than the usual. After
                              working with the local scoutmaster, (and a comment during a training
                              session at summer camp) we implemented the idea of having
                              an expierenced den chief serve as a "Pack" chief. Basically, He's
                              the "head" den chief. He'll help out at Pack meetings, fill in for
                              den chiefs when the assigned ones can't make a meeting due to
                              unforseen circumstance or schedule conflicts, he'll also offer
                              advice and leadership to the first year den chiefs as well as
                              checking to make sure they are fulfilling the requirements of the
                              position.

                              Myself and the scoutmaster think it will work out pretty well.
                              Either way, with the Pack chief and the female den chiefs, it'll be
                              a fun year!

                              YiS&V
                              Ben K.

                              Cubmaster - Pack 578
                              MB Counselor - Troop 1717
                              Advisor - Crew 1717
                              I used to be an Antelope....
                            • Lady T
                              Wow!  I m AWESTRUCK! Wish we could get this much participation/involvement in our area! Trish ... From: Ben To:
                              Message 14 of 27 , Aug 15 10:24 AM
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                                Wow!  I'm AWESTRUCK!
                                Wish we could get this much participation/involvement in our area!
                                Trish



                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: Ben <benjamin.klinefelter@...>
                                To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 12:12:31 PM
                                Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Digest Number 1854lNeil/Trish.Den Chief


                                This is a topic that recently came up for the various units I'm
                                involved with.

                                I'm a Cubmaster for a small pack that usually feeds into a pretty
                                large troop nearby. We utilized a den chief for the first time last
                                year with our Webelos I den. It worked out extremely well.

                                This year, I put in a request to the troop for den chiefs for our
                                Webelos II, Webelos I and Bear dens. All of the boys from the troop
                                will have to be interviewed by the Cub committee before they assume
                                their positions.

                                I also submitted a request to our local crew for Den chiefs for our
                                Wolf and Tiger dens asnd got two female Crew members who
                                volunteered.
                                They will go through the same process as the boys from the troop.

                                Now, in my mind, that's great because I have older scouts who will
                                be able to help out the junior den leaders corral those rowdy Tigers
                                and Wolves. And I've got Boy scouts from the troop who will provide
                                that role model and bridge for the boys who are getting ready to
                                transition over to the Troops. Plus, having Venturing females in
                                uniform at Pack and district events gives the added bonus of
                                promoting Venturing throughout the community.

                                Bottom line is having female youth in leadership positions is a win-
                                win.

                                Starting next month, I'll have den chiefs for each of my dens as
                                well as a "Pack" den chief. "Wait? A what?" you might say.

                                Due to the largeness of our local troop, they have few opportunities
                                for leadership positions for the youth other than the usual. After
                                working with the local scoutmaster, (and a comment during a training
                                session at summer camp) we implemented the idea of having
                                an expierenced den chief serve as a "Pack" chief. Basically, He's
                                the "head" den chief. He'll help out at Pack meetings, fill in for
                                den chiefs when the assigned ones can't make a meeting due to
                                unforseen circumstance or schedule conflicts, he'll also offer
                                advice and leadership to the first year den chiefs as well as
                                checking to make sure they are fulfilling the requirements of the
                                position.

                                Myself and the scoutmaster think it will work out pretty well.
                                Either way, with the Pack chief and the female den chiefs, it'll be
                                a fun year!

                                YiS&V
                                Ben K.

                                Cubmaster - Pack 578
                                MB Counselor - Troop 1717
                                Advisor - Crew 1717
                                I used to be an Antelope....






                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • ed5870@aol.com
                                In a message dated 8/15/2008 10:59:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, maria@inkspot.net writes: If you live in an area with enough boys and men to do the job -
                                Message 15 of 27 , Aug 16 4:51 AM
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                                  In a message dated 8/15/2008 10:59:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                                  maria@... writes:

                                  If you live in an area with enough boys and men to do the job -
                                  great. But if you don't and a woman or a girl will step up to help
                                  make the program, as long as they are following the program, I don't
                                  have a problem with it.



                                  I have known many great female leaders. I think female or male it doesn't
                                  matter as long as the leader is trained and follows the program. No begging
                                  about it.

                                  Ed Harvey
                                  Training Chair Dutchess District
                                  Every Cub Scout deserves a Trained Leader
                                  THE HEART OF SCOUTING IS TRAINING
                                  Hudson Valley Council
                                  I used to be an Antelope



                                  **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
                                  Read reviews on AOL Autos.
                                  (http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 )


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