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Re: [Scouter_T] Digest Number 1854

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  • Ilively@comcast.net
    I have not looked at the new information ... Just checking ... does it list Venturers as potential Den Chiefs? Ida
    Message 1 of 27 , Aug 12, 2008
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      I have not looked at the new information ...

      Just checking ... does it list Venturers as potential Den Chiefs?


      Ida
    • Lady T
      To that end, the question came up this past weekend at a Cub Leader training, can female venturers be den chiefs? Trisha E Munsch Cub Leader Training Chair
      Message 2 of 27 , Aug 12, 2008
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        To that end, the question came up this past weekend at a Cub Leader training, can female venturers be den chiefs?
        Trisha E Munsch
        Cub Leader Training Chair
        Chisholm Trail District
        Capitol Area Council
        Austin TX area



        ----- Original Message ----
        From: "Ilively@..." <Ilively@...>
        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 12:07:59 PM
        Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Digest Number 1854



        I have not looked at the new information ...

        Just checking ... does it list Venturers as potential Den Chiefs?

        Ida





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Staci Kilpatrick
        Trish, Checked out George s handbook (a Boy Scout who just took the class)  - there is a reference to She in his book.  In the quick glance I saw - it
        Message 3 of 27 , Aug 12, 2008
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          Trish,
          Checked out George's handbook (a Boy Scout who just took the class)  - there is a reference to "She" in his book.  In the quick glance I saw - it didn't say a girl couldn't....
          Qualifications:
          Be an older, experienced Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, or Venturer who has been a Boy Scout. Selected by the senior patrol leader and Scoutmaster, Varsity Scout Coach, or Venturing Advisor at the request of the Cubmaster or Webelos den leader. Preferably a former Cub Scout; ideally at least First Class rank. Approved by the Cubmaster and pack committee for recommendation to the Webelos den leader. Registered as a youth member of a troop, team, or crew.
          Staci Kilpatrick



          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Lady T <eagleladyt@...>
          To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 12:15:09 PM
          Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Digest Number 1854


          To that end, the question came up this past weekend at a Cub Leader training, can female venturers be den chiefs?
          Trisha E Munsch
          Cub Leader Training Chair
          Chisholm Trail District
          Capitol Area Council
          Austin TX area

          ----- Original Message ----
          From: "Ilively@comcast. net" <Ilively@comcast. net>
          To: scouter_t@yahoogrou ps.com
          Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 12:07:59 PM
          Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Digest Number 1854

          I have not looked at the new information ...

          Just checking ... does it list Venturers as potential Den Chiefs?

          Ida


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Eric Crimmins
          I ve never seen a female as a den chief, actually den chiefs in general are fairly rare in my district no matter how much we encourage them in training, and
          Message 4 of 27 , Aug 12, 2008
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            I've never seen a female as a den chief, actually den chiefs in general are fairly rare in my district no matter how much we encourage them in training, and venturering is even more rare, two crews with maybe a dozen youth so I've never had a cause to address this question here.  But based on this quote:  "Be an older, experienced Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, or Venturer who has been a Boy Scout." it would suggest that females can't be den chiefs.  For a Venturer to be a den chief they need to have been a Boy Scout.  Since females can't be Boy Scouts wouldn't that preclude them then from being a den chief?
             
            Eric






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • NeilLup@aol.com
            Hello Staci and Trish, I just checked the qualifications as currently listed on the BSA National web site for Den Chief. They are the following:
            Message 5 of 27 , Aug 12, 2008
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              Hello Staci and Trish,

              I just checked the qualifications as currently listed on the BSA National web
              site for Den Chief. They are the following:

              Qualifications: Is an older Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, or Venturer. Selected
              by the senior patrol leader and Scoutmaster, Varsity Scout Coach, or Venturing
              Advisor at the request of the Cubmaster. Approved by the Cubmaster and pack
              committee for recommendation to the den leader. Registered as a youth member of
              a troop, team, or crew.

              I note the very key absence in these qualifications of the words "who has
              been a Boy Scout." Perhaps those words were there previously, but they are
              not now. With my normal interpretation of "If the guidelines don't say you
              can't do something, you can" then I would say that these qualifications
              would include female Venturers. Go for it!

              Best wishes,

              Neil Lupton


              **************
              Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in
              your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.

              (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • ed5870@aol.com
              It does say a she can t if you read that it says has been a Boy Scout. Girls can not be a Boy Scout they can be Venturer s but a girl can be a Den Aide. In the
              Message 6 of 27 , Aug 12, 2008
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                It does say a she can't if you read that it says has been a Boy Scout. Girls can not be a Boy Scout they can be Venturer's but a girl can be a Den Aide.

                In the quick glance I saw - it didn't say a girl couldn't....
                Qualifications:
                Be an older, experienced Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, or Venturer who has been a Boy Scout.



                Ed Harvey
                Training Chair
                Dutchess District Hudson Valley Council
                Ever Scout deserves a Trained Leader


                -----Original Message-----
                From: Staci Kilpatrick <staci_30@...>
                To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 1:19 pm
                Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Digest Number 1854






                Trish,
                Checked out George's handbook (a Boy Scout who just took the class)? - there is a reference to "She" in his book.? In the quick glance I saw - it didn't say a girl couldn't....
                Qualifications:
                Be an older, experienced Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, or Venturer who has been a Boy Scout. Selected by the senior patrol leader and Scoutmaster, Varsity Scout Coach, or Venturing Advisor at the request of the Cubmaster or Webelos den leader. Preferably a former Cub Scout; ideally at least First Class rank. Approved by the Cubmaster and pack committee for recommendation to the Webelos den leader. Registered as a youth member of a troop, team, or crew.
                Staci Kilpatrick

                ----- Original Message ----
                From: Lady T <eagleladyt@...>
                To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 12:15:09 PM
                Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Digest Number 1854

                To that end, the question came up this past weekend at a Cub Leader training, can female venturers be den chiefs?
                Trisha E Munsch
                Cub Leader Training Chair
                Chisholm Trail District
                Capitol Area Council
                Austin TX area

                ----- Original Message ----
                From: "Ilively@comcast. net" <Ilively@comcast. net>
                To: scouter_t@yahoogrou ps.com
                Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 12:07:59 PM
                Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Digest Number 1854

                I have not looked at the new information ...

                Just checking ... does it list Venturers as potential Den Chiefs?

                Ida

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • JNDunnMN@aol.com
                den aide as an official position in a Cub Scout pack has been gone for many (10?) years. It disappeared from the Cub Scout leader book several editions ago.
                Message 7 of 27 , Aug 12, 2008
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                  "den aide" as an official position in a Cub Scout pack has been gone for
                  many (10?) years. It disappeared from the Cub Scout leader book several editions
                  ago. The requirement that a Venturer have been a Boy Scout in order to be a
                  Den Chief was eliminated 2-3 years ago. Female Venturers *can* be den Chiefs.

                  YiS,
                  Jamie Niss Dunn
                  Pack Trainer, P. 512
                  Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
                  Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner
                  Cub Scout Training Coordinator
                  3 Rivers District
                  Scouting. Good for Life.


                  In a message dated 8/12/2008 2:25:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
                  ed5870@... writes:

                  >but a girl can be a Den Aide.






                  **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
                  Read reviews on AOL Autos.
                  (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Lady T
                  So, if they have indeed removed the words who has been a boy scout, am I safe in assuming that a male Venturer who has never had anything to do with scouting
                  Message 8 of 27 , Aug 12, 2008
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                    So, if they have indeed removed the words "who has been a boy scout," am I safe in assuming that a male Venturer who has never had anything to do with scouting prior to Venturing is now able to be a den chief?
                    Trish



                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: "NeilLup@..." <NeilLup@...>
                    To: staci_30@...; scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 12:54:47 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Digest Number 1854


                    Hello Staci and Trish,

                    I just checked the qualifications as currently listed on the BSA National web
                    site for Den Chief. They are the following:

                    Qualifications: Is an older Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, or Venturer. Selected
                    by the senior patrol leader and Scoutmaster, Varsity Scout Coach, or Venturing
                    Advisor at the request of the Cubmaster. Approved by the Cubmaster and pack
                    committee for recommendation to the den leader. Registered as a youth member of
                    a troop, team, or crew.

                    I note the very key absence in these qualifications of the words "who has
                    been a Boy Scout." Perhaps those words were there previously, but they are
                    not now. With my normal interpretation of "If the guidelines don't say you
                    can't do something, you can" then I would say that these qualifications
                    would include female Venturers. Go for it!

                    Best wishes,

                    Neil Lupton

                    ************ **
                    Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in
                    your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.

                    (http://autos. aol.com/cars- BMW-128-2008/ expert-review? ncid=aolaut00050 000000017 )

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • NeilLup@aol.com
                    ... They would also appear to meet the qualifications. Best wishes, Neil Lupton ************** Looking for a car that s sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
                    Message 9 of 27 , Aug 12, 2008
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                      In a message dated 8/12/08 3:55:58 PM, eagleladyt@... writes:


                      >
                      > So, if they have indeed removed the words "who has been a boy scout," am I
                      > safe in assuming that a male Venturer who has never had anything to do with
                      > scouting prior to Venturing is now able to be a den chief?
                      > Tris
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      They would also appear to meet the qualifications.

                      Best wishes,

                      Neil Lupton


                      **************
                      Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in
                      your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.

                      (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ryan
                      ... am I safe in assuming that a male Venturer who has never had anything to do with scouting prior to Venturing is now able to be a den chief? This current
                      Message 10 of 27 , Aug 13, 2008
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                        Trish said:
                        > So, if they have indeed removed the words "who has been a boy scout,"
                        am I safe in assuming that a male Venturer who has never had anything
                        to do with scouting prior to Venturing is now able to be a den chief?

                        This current thread seems to be too stuck on a few words and losing
                        sight of the bigger picture. If a female Venturer is capable and
                        willing by all means she can be a Den Chief. Who cares that she wasn't
                        a Boy Scout. Who's checking? Who's going to tell you that you are
                        doing it wrong? Teaching Others is one of the methods of Venturing and
                        why do we want to stop that? Females can be Den Leaders despite having
                        never been Boy Scouts, so why not a Den Chief. Let's not put silly
                        barriers up that would prevent good from being done. I'd say the same
                        for a male Venturer who hasn't been a Boy Scout too. IF (big if) you
                        can find a Venturer who is interested, then why not use them?

                        Ryan
                        Ore-Ida Council
                      • whymel@cox.net
                        Well said Ryan! Wally SE Louisiana Council
                        Message 11 of 27 , Aug 13, 2008
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                          Well said Ryan!

                          Wally
                          SE Louisiana Council
                          ---- Ryan <rd_lancaster@...> wrote:
                          > Trish said:
                          > > So, if they have indeed removed the words "who has been a boy scout,"
                          > am I safe in assuming that a male Venturer who has never had anything
                          > to do with scouting prior to Venturing is now able to be a den chief?
                          >
                          > This current thread seems to be too stuck on a few words and losing
                          > sight of the bigger picture. If a female Venturer is capable and
                          > willing by all means she can be a Den Chief. Who cares that she wasn't
                          > a Boy Scout. Who's checking? Who's going to tell you that you are
                          > doing it wrong? Teaching Others is one of the methods of Venturing and
                          > why do we want to stop that? Females can be Den Leaders despite having
                          > never been Boy Scouts, so why not a Den Chief. Let's not put silly
                          > barriers up that would prevent good from being done. I'd say the same
                          > for a male Venturer who hasn't been a Boy Scout too. IF (big if) you
                          > can find a Venturer who is interested, then why not use them?
                          >
                          > Ryan
                          > Ore-Ida Council
                          >
                        • Kathie Heidenfelder
                          Hi, I m not sure why not............Explorer scouts always were eligible even if they had never been a Boy Scout. Kathie ... -- Kathie Heidenfelder EECS Office
                          Message 12 of 27 , Aug 13, 2008
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                            Hi,

                            I'm not sure why not............Explorer scouts always were eligible
                            even if they had never been a Boy Scout.

                            Kathie

                            whymel@... wrote:
                            >
                            > Well said Ryan!
                            >
                            > Wally
                            > SE Louisiana Council
                            > ---- Ryan <rd_lancaster@... <mailto:rd_lancaster%40yahoo.com>>
                            > wrote:
                            > > Trish said:
                            > > > So, if they have indeed removed the words "who has been a boy scout,"
                            > > am I safe in assuming that a male Venturer who has never had anything
                            > > to do with scouting prior to Venturing is now able to be a den chief?
                            > >
                            > > This current thread seems to be too stuck on a few words and losing
                            > > sight of the bigger picture. If a female Venturer is capable and
                            > > willing by all means she can be a Den Chief. Who cares that she wasn't
                            > > a Boy Scout. Who's checking? Who's going to tell you that you are
                            > > doing it wrong? Teaching Others is one of the methods of Venturing and
                            > > why do we want to stop that? Females can be Den Leaders despite having
                            > > never been Boy Scouts, so why not a Den Chief. Let's not put silly
                            > > barriers up that would prevent good from being done. I'd say the same
                            > > for a male Venturer who hasn't been a Boy Scout too. IF (big if) you
                            > > can find a Venturer who is interested, then why not use them?
                            > >
                            > > Ryan
                            > > Ore-Ida Council
                            > >
                            >
                            >


                            --
                            Kathie Heidenfelder
                            EECS Office of Graduate Studies
                            Northwestern University
                            2145 Sheridan Rd.
                            Evanston, IL 60208-3118
                            1-847-467-2172
                          • ed5870@aol.com
                            Tnak you Jamie I was mis-led I see that the requirement that the Den Leader was a Boy Scout has been removed and I think that was a great idea. In a message
                            Message 13 of 27 , Aug 14, 2008
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                              Tnak you Jamie I was mis-led I see that the requirement that the Den Leader
                              was a Boy Scout has been removed and I think that was a great idea.


                              In a message dated 8/12/2008 3:37:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                              JNDunnMN@... writes:




                              "den aide" as an official position in a Cub Scout pack has been gone for
                              many (10?) years. It disappeared from the Cub Scout leader book several
                              editions
                              ago. The requirement that a Venturer have been a Boy Scout in order to be a
                              Den Chief was eliminated 2-3 years ago. Female Venturers *can* be den Chiefs.

                              YiS,
                              Jamie Niss Dunn
                              Pack Trainer, P. 512
                              Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
                              Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner
                              Cub Scout Training Coordinator
                              3 Rivers District
                              Scouting. Good for Life.

                              In a message dated 8/12/2008 2:25:30 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
                              _ed5870@..._ (mailto:ed5870@...) writes:

                              >but a girl can be a Den Aide.

                              ************************<WBR>**Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits
                              Read reviews on AOL Autos.
                              (_http://autos.http://autos.http://autos.http://autos.http://autos.<WBhttp://a
                              u_
                              (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017) )

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                              **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget?
                              Read reviews on AOL Autos.
                              (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 )


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Don Wilson
                              Have you ever been in a situation where you have to do something knowing full well that you will live to regret it? For me, this Den Chief thing has been like
                              Message 14 of 27 , Aug 14, 2008
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                                Have you ever been in a situation where you have to do something
                                knowing full well that you will live to regret it? For me, this Den
                                Chief thing has been like the last piece of stake in a good meal.
                                You pop that last bite into your mouth and begin savoring the rich
                                steak flavor. However, laced through that bite was a piece of
                                gristle. You know, the kind that grows with every chew until you
                                think it fills your mouth. And what can you do? Can't talk around
                                that now hugh piece of gristle, bad manners to spit it out on your
                                plate, can't turn your head and spit it on the ground as we would if
                                camping. Best option will be to use your napkin and slip that
                                gristle into the napkin while daintily removing the excess juices
                                from your face. That is where I am.

                                I have reviewed the current Den Chief Handbook (3321B, 2005 printing)
                                well, that is the current version at our Scout Shop), and the current
                                Den Chief Training manual (34450C which I was given as the most
                                current version) and must take a small exception concerning
                                qualifications needed by a Den Chief.

                                The Den Chief Handbook states that: "As a den chief, you are
                                responsible for the following: (Pages 7 & 8)

                                Knowing the purposes of Cub Scouting

                                Helping boys achieve the purposes of Cub Scouting

                                Being the activities assistant in den meetings

                                Setting a good example through attitude and uniforming

                                Taking part in weekly den meetings

                                Assisting the den in its part of the monthly pack meeting program

                                Being a friend to the boys in the den

                                Meeting as needed with adult leaders"

                                Seems rather straight forward, right?

                                The Den Chief Training manual expands that list a bit on Page 1.
                                " The den chief:
                                1) Holds a leadership position in the troop, team, or crew......

                                2) Is a model for the boys in the den as well as the entire pack

                                3) Promptes Scouting in general and the local troop in particular

                                4) Facilitates the transition of Webelos Scouts into Boy Scouting

                                "In addition, a trained den chief:
                                1)Is capable of effectively assisting the den leader with planning
                                and conduction den meetings

                                2) Understands the Cub Scouting program and the differences between
                                Cub Scouting and Boy Scouting

                                3) will be comfortable with the den leader's duties and confident in
                                carrying them out

                                4) Is familiar with resources for age-appropriate activities for Cub
                                Scouts

                                5) Has a repertoire of activities that Cub Scouts enjoy"

                                OK, it is true that both the Den Chief Training manual and the Den
                                Chief Handbook quickly lists the "Purposes of Cub Scouting", but
                                neither dedicated any time to insure that the purposes are
                                understood. The den chief duties require "understanding of the Cub
                                Scout program and the differences between Cub Scouting and Boy
                                Scouting." The den chief "promotes Scouting in general and the local
                                troop in particular."

                                Perhaps I am making things too simple, however, I doubt that a youth
                                that has never been a Cub Scout or a Boy Scout would be able to
                                fulfill those requirements.

                                One of my goals as a Scoutmaster was to have a den chief working with
                                Webelos Scouts (if I had only one den chief) to encourage them to
                                transition into Boy Scouting, where the den chief would be present so
                                that the new Boy Scout did not feel as if he were in a room of
                                strange big boys. I am 100% certain that having a Boy Scout with
                                whom the new Scouts already know and has formed a friendship will
                                insure that retention is not a problem in the troop.

                                So, if a 14 year old, regardless of gender, joins a team or crew
                                without having the experience of Cub Scouting or Boy Scouting, how
                                would they be able to fulfill the requirements of a den chief?

                                OK, I spit the ball of gristle into my napkin. Please take no
                                offense as none was intended. However, please have great sympathy
                                with the council training chairman that has had to put up with me for
                                almost 20 years.

                                Don Wilson
                                OHC 420


                                So, if they have indeed removed the words "who has been a boy scout," am I safe in assuming that a male Venturer who has never had anything to do with scouting prior to Venturing is now able to be a den chief?
                                Trish



                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: "NeilLup@..." <NeilLup@...>
                                To: staci_30@...; scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 12:54:47 PM
                                Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Digest Number 1854


                                Hello Staci and Trish,

                                I just checked the qualifications as currently listed on the BSA National web
                                site for Den Chief. They are the following:

                                Qualifications: Is an older Boy Scout, Varsity Scout, or Venturer. Selected
                                by the senior patrol leader and Scoutmaster, Varsity Scout Coach, or Venturing
                                Advisor at the request of the Cubmaster. Approved by the Cubmaster and pack
                                committeefor recommendation to the den leader. Registered as a youth
                                member of
                                a troop, team, or crew.

                                I note the very key absence in these qualifications of the words "who
                                has
                                beena Boy Scout." Perhaps those words were there previously, but
                                they are
                                not now. With my normal interpretation of "If the guidelines don't
                                say you
                                can'tdo something, you can" then I would say that these
                                qualifications
                                wouldinclude female Venturers. Go for it!

                                Bestwishes,

                                NeilLupton

                                **************
                                Lookingfor a car that's sporty, fun and fits in
                                yourbudget? Read reviews on AOL Autos.

                                (http://autos.aol.com/cars- BMW-128-2008/ expert-review?
                                ncid=aolaut00050 000000017 )

                                [Non-textportions of this message have been removed]




                                [Non-textportions of this message have been removed]


                                -- Success is not the destination, it is the journey.
                              • nuts4scouts
                                I was never a Cub Scout, Boy Scout, or Venturer and yet I have managed to be an active leader, trainer, and UC, in the BSA for the last 13 years. I wonder how
                                Message 15 of 27 , Aug 14, 2008
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                                  I was never a Cub Scout, Boy Scout, or Venturer and yet I have managed
                                  to be an active leader, trainer, and UC, in the BSA for the last 13
                                  years.

                                  I wonder how on earth I managed?


                                  --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Don Wilson" <don-wilson@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > OK, it is true that both the Den Chief Training manual and the Den
                                  > Chief Handbook quickly lists the "Purposes of Cub Scouting", but
                                  > neither dedicated any time to insure that the purposes are
                                  > understood. The den chief duties require "understanding of the Cub
                                  > Scout program and the differences between Cub Scouting and Boy
                                  > Scouting." The den chief "promotes Scouting in general and the local
                                  > troop in particular."
                                  >
                                  > Perhaps I am making things too simple, however, I doubt that a youth
                                  > that has never been a Cub Scout or a Boy Scout would be able to
                                  > fulfill those requirements.
                                  >
                                • Don Wilson
                                  Having never been a Cub Scout, Boy Scout or Explorer (Varsity and Venturing did not exist in the 1950 s) and yet served as an active Scoutmaster, Unit
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Aug 14, 2008
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                                    Having never been a Cub Scout, Boy Scout or Explorer (Varsity and
                                    Venturing did not exist in the 1950's) and yet served as an active
                                    Scoutmaster, Unit Commissioner, trainer, District Training Chair,
                                    District Commissioner, and District Chairman over the past 20 years,
                                    I did it the same way you did. I was trained, often under the
                                    tutelage of Tom Travis, at every opportunity, having been a
                                    participate in every course available at the council level and have
                                    delivered training in almost every course. And a den chief that has
                                    not participated in the Cub Scouting and/or Boy Scouting programs,
                                    would also need to be trained in order to achieve the main goal of
                                    assisting the transition of a Scout through the ranks and retention
                                    in the Scouting program including troop, team and/or crew. Currrent
                                    material does not provide that training.

                                    Scouter Hammond is certainly correct. My materials are current. I
                                    understand what the requirements state. And if your training
                                    programs for den chief has included a complete understanding of Cub
                                    Scouting and Boy Scouting programs, then the applicant is certainly
                                    qualified. We do have to remember that there is a program that falls
                                    between Cub Scouting and Venturing. That program is Boy Scouting,
                                    and we are challenged to insure that youth are retained in that
                                    program.

                                    See, I knew that I was going to regret writing the post. No offense
                                    intended.

                                    YIS

                                    Don Wilson
                                    OHC 427

                                    > I was never a Cub Scout, Boy Scout, or Venturer and yet I have managed
                                    > to be an active leader, trainer, and UC, in the BSA for the last 13
                                    > years.
                                    >
                                    > I wonder how on earth I managed?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Don Wilson" <don-wilson@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > OK, it is true that both the Den Chief Training manual and the Den
                                    > > Chief Handbook quickly lists the "Purposes of Cub Scouting", but
                                    > > neither dedicated any time to insure that the purposes are
                                    > > understood. The den chief duties require "understanding of the Cub
                                    > > Scout program and the differences between Cub Scouting and Boy
                                    > > Scouting." The den chief "promotes Scouting in general and the local
                                    > > troop in particular."
                                    > >
                                    > > Perhaps I am making things too simple, however, I doubt that a youth
                                    > > that has never been a Cub Scout or a Boy Scout would be able to
                                    > > fulfill those requirements.
                                  • Teresa Hall
                                    I m just amazed that some areas have such a wealth to choose from. There may be a perfect profile for a den chief, but around here it s either take the one
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Aug 14, 2008
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                                      I'm just amazed that some areas have such a wealth to choose from. There may
                                      be a "perfect" profile for a den chief, but around here it's either take the
                                      one who has an interest and can make the schedule work, or do without.

                                      Teresa Hall
                                      Vulcan District Cub Training Coordinator
                                      Greater AL Council

                                      On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 4:59 PM, nuts4scouts <nuts4scouts@...> wrote:

                                      > I was never a Cub Scout, Boy Scout, or Venturer and yet I have managed
                                      > to be an active leader, trainer, and UC, in the BSA for the last 13
                                      > years.
                                      >
                                      > I wonder how on earth I managed?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Don Wilson" <don-wilson@...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > OK, it is true that both the Den Chief Training manual and the Den
                                      > > Chief Handbook quickly lists the "Purposes of Cub Scouting", but
                                      > > neither dedicated any time to insure that the purposes are
                                      > > understood. The den chief duties require "understanding of the Cub
                                      > > Scout program and the differences between Cub Scouting and Boy
                                      > > Scouting." The den chief "promotes Scouting in general and the local
                                      > > troop in particular."
                                      > >
                                      > > Perhaps I am making things too simple, however, I doubt that a youth
                                      > > that has never been a Cub Scout or a Boy Scout would be able to
                                      > > fulfill those requirements.
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                                      > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                                      >
                                      > Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Olan Watkins
                                      Don Back in the dark ages when I was a Webelos leader and had a Den Chief from a Troop the idea was that the Den Chief would try to get the Webelos to move
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Aug 14, 2008
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                                        Don

                                        Back in the dark ages when I was a Webelos leader and had a Den Chief from
                                        a Troop the idea was that the Den Chief would try to get the Webelos to
                                        move into the Troop as a group and the Den Chief would be their Patrol
                                        Leader for their first six months to a year.

                                        In general, the Den Chief position was a young Scout and their first
                                        leadership position and only a year or two years older than the Webelos.

                                        Today, if I were a Webelos Leader and had a young lady Venturing member as
                                        a Den Chief, I guess that I would require that she attend a Den Chief
                                        training and perhaps even at least the fast start training for Scouts and
                                        Cubs so that she would understand the Cub and Boy Scout programs.

                                        Since the young lady would not be a member of a Troop, she could not push
                                        for moving into any one Troop, but perhaps that might be a good thing.

                                        I could see it being a possible problem for over night den campouts,
                                        Webelos Summer Camps, perhaps even for all day den trips to zoos or other
                                        places for visits.

                                        Perhaps some one with experience with having a Venturing Den Chief will
                                        speak up and let us know how it is working out.

                                        Olan Watkins
                                      • maria@inkspot.net
                                        I think I feel the same way, about female den chiefs as I do female Scout Masters. Beggers can t be choosers. If you live in an area with enough boys and men
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Aug 14, 2008
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                                          I think I feel the same way, about female den chiefs as I do female
                                          Scout Masters. Beggers can't be choosers.

                                          If you live in an area with enough boys and men to do the job -
                                          great. But if you don't and a woman or a girl will step up to help
                                          make the program, as long as they are following the program, I don't
                                          have a problem with it.

                                          M Hurley


                                          > I'm just amazed that some areas have such a wealth to choose from. There may
                                          > be a "perfect" profile for a den chief, but around here it's either take the
                                          > one who has an interest and can make the schedule work, or do without.
                                          >
                                          > Teresa Hall
                                        • Lisa
                                          What problems would there be that we wouldn t have with a female den leader? ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Aug 14, 2008
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                                            What problems would there be that we wouldn't have with a female den leader?



                                            Olan Watkins wrote:
                                            > I could see it being a possible problem for over night den campouts,
                                            > Webelos Summer Camps, perhaps even for all day den trips to zoos or other
                                            > places for visits.
                                            >


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Olan Watkins
                                            As someone said, in general Den Chiefs are not in super supply, so you pretty much have to take what you can get. Being a Den Chief is not the most popular
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Aug 15, 2008
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                                              As someone said, in general Den Chiefs are not in super supply, so you
                                              pretty much have to take what you can get. Being a Den Chief is not the
                                              most popular leadership job in a Troop and not too many kids will take the
                                              job.

                                              A good Den Chief can be worth their weight in gold, or they can just be
                                              another kid in the den for the leader to look after.

                                              I have been on both sides of the fence, as a Webelos Den Leader with a Den
                                              Chief and as a Scout Master trying to get kids to take on the job of Den
                                              Chief.

                                              Having a Den Chief with a Webelos Den can be the most effective recruiting
                                              method that a Troop can have, so it is to the Troops advantage to supply as
                                              good a Scout as is possible to have.

                                              When I was a Webelos leader, I had a very good Den Chief that set a very
                                              good example of how Scouts should act and was a good role model. He acted
                                              pretty much the same as a Patrol Leader. We did quite a bit of camping and
                                              activities and he did a good job of teaching them how to cook, pitch tents,
                                              and so on such that when we moved into the Troop they were able to hit the
                                              ground running as Boy Scouts.

                                              I guess it would be possible to have a Den Chief with Bear and Wolf Dens,
                                              but I don't think I have ever know of one.

                                              As some one said with a female den leader, having a female Venturing Den
                                              Chief should not be a problem for over night campouts.

                                              Olan Watkins
                                            • Kevin Pate
                                              ... Rightly or wrongly, our society and our organization are fine with two or three moms taking some Webelos and a male den chief to the woods, but the fine
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Aug 15, 2008
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                                                > What problems would there be that we wouldn't have with a female
                                                > den leader?

                                                Rightly or wrongly, our society and our organization are fine with two or three moms taking some Webelos and a male den chief to the woods, but the fine vanishes rapidly when it is two or three dads taking some Webelos and a female Venturer to the woods.
                                              • maria@inkspot.net
                                                My understanding is that if there is a female Venturer, than there has to be a female leader, if overnights are involved. I maybe wrong, but I believe that s
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Aug 15, 2008
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                                                  My understanding is that if there is a female Venturer, than there
                                                  has to be a female leader, if overnights are involved. I maybe wrong,
                                                  but I believe that's why our council is doing such a push to get
                                                  woman involved in Venturing.

                                                  I know groups have had to nearly cancel trips until they got a
                                                  trained woman to join them.

                                                  M Hurley
                                                • NeilLup@aol.com
                                                  ... I believe that, per G2SS, if there is a female Venturer as a Den Chief, there would need to be both male and female adult leadership for the event. I
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Aug 15, 2008
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                                                    In a message dated 8/15/08 12:55:47 PM, kevinpate@... writes:


                                                    > Rightly or wrongly, our society and our organization are fine with two or
                                                    > three moms taking some Webelos and a male den chief to the woods, but the fine
                                                    > vanishes rapidly when it is two or three dads taking some Webelos and a
                                                    > female Venturer to the woods
                                                    >

                                                    I believe that, per G2SS, if there is a female Venturer as a Den Chief,
                                                    there would need to be both male and female adult leadership for the event.
                                                    I would suggest that a female Venturer and male Cub Scouts would make it a
                                                    "coed" event.

                                                    That's not a "problem" it's complying with the guidelines.

                                                    And I have heard it asked whether is becomes a coed event if there are female
                                                    adults on a Boy Scout or Cub Scout outing meaning that there would need to be
                                                    a male adult present too. Not discussing whether it's a good idea or not
                                                    (it is) but whether it is required by G2SS.


                                                    Best wishes,

                                                    Neil Lupton


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                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  • Ben
                                                    This is a topic that recently came up for the various units I m involved with. I m a Cubmaster for a small pack that usually feeds into a pretty large troop
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Aug 15, 2008
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                                                      This is a topic that recently came up for the various units I'm
                                                      involved with.

                                                      I'm a Cubmaster for a small pack that usually feeds into a pretty
                                                      large troop nearby. We utilized a den chief for the first time last
                                                      year with our Webelos I den. It worked out extremely well.

                                                      This year, I put in a request to the troop for den chiefs for our
                                                      Webelos II, Webelos I and Bear dens. All of the boys from the troop
                                                      will have to be interviewed by the Cub committee before they assume
                                                      their positions.

                                                      I also submitted a request to our local crew for Den chiefs for our
                                                      Wolf and Tiger dens asnd got two female Crew members who
                                                      volunteered.
                                                      They will go through the same process as the boys from the troop.

                                                      Now, in my mind, that's great because I have older scouts who will
                                                      be able to help out the junior den leaders corral those rowdy Tigers
                                                      and Wolves. And I've got Boy scouts from the troop who will provide
                                                      that role model and bridge for the boys who are getting ready to
                                                      transition over to the Troops. Plus, having Venturing females in
                                                      uniform at Pack and district events gives the added bonus of
                                                      promoting Venturing throughout the community.

                                                      Bottom line is having female youth in leadership positions is a win-
                                                      win.

                                                      Starting next month, I'll have den chiefs for each of my dens as
                                                      well as a "Pack" den chief. "Wait? A what?" you might say.

                                                      Due to the largeness of our local troop, they have few opportunities
                                                      for leadership positions for the youth other than the usual. After
                                                      working with the local scoutmaster, (and a comment during a training
                                                      session at summer camp) we implemented the idea of having
                                                      an expierenced den chief serve as a "Pack" chief. Basically, He's
                                                      the "head" den chief. He'll help out at Pack meetings, fill in for
                                                      den chiefs when the assigned ones can't make a meeting due to
                                                      unforseen circumstance or schedule conflicts, he'll also offer
                                                      advice and leadership to the first year den chiefs as well as
                                                      checking to make sure they are fulfilling the requirements of the
                                                      position.

                                                      Myself and the scoutmaster think it will work out pretty well.
                                                      Either way, with the Pack chief and the female den chiefs, it'll be
                                                      a fun year!

                                                      YiS&V
                                                      Ben K.

                                                      Cubmaster - Pack 578
                                                      MB Counselor - Troop 1717
                                                      Advisor - Crew 1717
                                                      I used to be an Antelope....
                                                    • Lady T
                                                      Wow!  I m AWESTRUCK! Wish we could get this much participation/involvement in our area! Trish ... From: Ben To:
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Aug 15, 2008
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                                                        Wow!  I'm AWESTRUCK!
                                                        Wish we could get this much participation/involvement in our area!
                                                        Trish



                                                        ----- Original Message ----
                                                        From: Ben <benjamin.klinefelter@...>
                                                        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 12:12:31 PM
                                                        Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Digest Number 1854lNeil/Trish.Den Chief


                                                        This is a topic that recently came up for the various units I'm
                                                        involved with.

                                                        I'm a Cubmaster for a small pack that usually feeds into a pretty
                                                        large troop nearby. We utilized a den chief for the first time last
                                                        year with our Webelos I den. It worked out extremely well.

                                                        This year, I put in a request to the troop for den chiefs for our
                                                        Webelos II, Webelos I and Bear dens. All of the boys from the troop
                                                        will have to be interviewed by the Cub committee before they assume
                                                        their positions.

                                                        I also submitted a request to our local crew for Den chiefs for our
                                                        Wolf and Tiger dens asnd got two female Crew members who
                                                        volunteered.
                                                        They will go through the same process as the boys from the troop.

                                                        Now, in my mind, that's great because I have older scouts who will
                                                        be able to help out the junior den leaders corral those rowdy Tigers
                                                        and Wolves. And I've got Boy scouts from the troop who will provide
                                                        that role model and bridge for the boys who are getting ready to
                                                        transition over to the Troops. Plus, having Venturing females in
                                                        uniform at Pack and district events gives the added bonus of
                                                        promoting Venturing throughout the community.

                                                        Bottom line is having female youth in leadership positions is a win-
                                                        win.

                                                        Starting next month, I'll have den chiefs for each of my dens as
                                                        well as a "Pack" den chief. "Wait? A what?" you might say.

                                                        Due to the largeness of our local troop, they have few opportunities
                                                        for leadership positions for the youth other than the usual. After
                                                        working with the local scoutmaster, (and a comment during a training
                                                        session at summer camp) we implemented the idea of having
                                                        an expierenced den chief serve as a "Pack" chief. Basically, He's
                                                        the "head" den chief. He'll help out at Pack meetings, fill in for
                                                        den chiefs when the assigned ones can't make a meeting due to
                                                        unforseen circumstance or schedule conflicts, he'll also offer
                                                        advice and leadership to the first year den chiefs as well as
                                                        checking to make sure they are fulfilling the requirements of the
                                                        position.

                                                        Myself and the scoutmaster think it will work out pretty well.
                                                        Either way, with the Pack chief and the female den chiefs, it'll be
                                                        a fun year!

                                                        YiS&V
                                                        Ben K.

                                                        Cubmaster - Pack 578
                                                        MB Counselor - Troop 1717
                                                        Advisor - Crew 1717
                                                        I used to be an Antelope....






                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      • ed5870@aol.com
                                                        In a message dated 8/15/2008 10:59:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, maria@inkspot.net writes: If you live in an area with enough boys and men to do the job -
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Aug 16, 2008
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                                                          In a message dated 8/15/2008 10:59:51 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                                                          maria@... writes:

                                                          If you live in an area with enough boys and men to do the job -
                                                          great. But if you don't and a woman or a girl will step up to help
                                                          make the program, as long as they are following the program, I don't
                                                          have a problem with it.



                                                          I have known many great female leaders. I think female or male it doesn't
                                                          matter as long as the leader is trained and follows the program. No begging
                                                          about it.

                                                          Ed Harvey
                                                          Training Chair Dutchess District
                                                          Every Cub Scout deserves a Trained Leader
                                                          THE HEART OF SCOUTING IS TRAINING
                                                          Hudson Valley Council
                                                          I used to be an Antelope



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