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NLE Online

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  • Ida Lively
    I heard that there s an article in the latest Professional BSA Mag that the ONLY training accepted for NLE is those taught by a person. I know there is at
    Message 1 of 20 , Apr 12, 2008
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      I heard that there's an article in the latest Professional BSA Mag
      that the ONLY training accepted for NLE is those taught by a person.

      I know there is at least one council out there that has an amazing NLE
      online, but .... so says National, it's not acceptable for use to
      receive the Trained patch.


      Ida
    • Bill Kenton
      All, I think Crossroads Council, out of Indianapolis, created the original NLE online class that you re talking about. Several other councils around the U.S.
      Message 2 of 20 , Apr 13, 2008
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        All,
        I think Crossroads Council, out of Indianapolis, created the
        original NLE online class that you're talking about. Several other councils
        around the U.S. have linked to it as part of their training, also. However,
        I'd doublecheck that BSA article. I was talking to a lady in the training
        department at National a few weeks ago. She said they were still working on
        getting the front end programming put onto the Crossroads NLE online
        program. The front end would tie it into National's other courses where you
        have to put in your ID, and membership number. After completion the
        information would then be sent back to your local council. She said she had
        a note saying they were originally trying to get it done by the end of '07.
        So, I'm not sure what's really correct here.

        Bill

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ida Lively
        > Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2008 5:27 PM
        > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [Scouter_T] NLE Online
        >
        > I heard that there's an article in the latest Professional
        > BSA Mag that the ONLY training accepted for NLE is those
        > taught by a person.
        >
        > I know there is at least one council out there that has an
        > amazing NLE online, but .... so says National, it's not
        > acceptable for use to receive the Trained patch.
        >
        >
        > Ida
        >
      • Brian Sutilla
        Ida and all, You are correct in what you heard. The article was in the latest ProSpeak. The main point of the article was more about what is now required for
        Message 3 of 20 , Apr 13, 2008
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          Ida and all,

          You are correct in what you heard. The article was in the latest
          ProSpeak.

          The main point of the article was more about what is now required for
          Cub Scout Leaders to be considered trained, and be able to wear the
          trained patch (alright everyone get ready to be shocked):

          1. Fast Start for position (instructor led, online, video)
          2. New Leader Essentials (instructor led)
          3. Cub Scout Leader Specifics-for position (instructor led)
          4. Youth Protection (instructor led or online)


          Now, the last I heard and not to start the blazing fire on this topic
          again, but there are 3 methods for instructor led courses for
          participants to be trained:

          1. Take the course
          2. One-on-one (table top) training
          3. Self-study

          We all have our opinions on whether one is better than the other, that
          is not the point ( I will say, I have taken some instructor led
          courses that I wish I had been given the syllabus to read myself :) ).
          The last I read an these 3 methods are still valid.

          Ida, I do know a few council's out there that have made their own
          online version of NLE. Could this be considered self-study?

          Now why did national only put instructor led on NLE? Because they
          have not developed, and currently NO PLAN TO develop, a NLE module to
          be put into the Online Learning Center. (This is stated in the
          webmaster's section/maintenance logs on the national web site)

          I hope this helps to clarify this for you Ida.

          Yours in Scouting,
          Brian M. Sutilla
          Senior District Executive (for a few more days)
          (soon to be) District Director
          C-07-00 - Buffalo


          --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Ida Lively" <Ilively@...> wrote:
          >
          > I heard that there's an article in the latest Professional BSA Mag
          > that the ONLY training accepted for NLE is those taught by a person.
          >
          > I know there is at least one council out there that has an amazing NLE
          > online, but .... so says National, it's not acceptable for use to
          > receive the Trained patch.
          >
          >
          > Ida
          >
        • Margo Mead
          So does that mean we should not be handing out the trained patches at the end of LST? And, why is NLE listed 2nd and LST listed third, when the Oct. issue of
          Message 4 of 20 , Apr 14, 2008
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            So does that mean we should not be handing out the trained patches at the
            end of LST?



            And, why is NLE listed 2nd and LST listed third, when the Oct. issue of
            Scouter magazine stated that we were to have leaders take LST first, then
            NLE (after Fast Start of course)? Our district has not made this change yet.
            We are in the rut of doing NLE first for everyone and then splitting out
            into the different-length Cub, Varsity and Venturing trainings. We'll get
            there, and it will probably be faster than it is taking for the new Cub
            Scout training to come out.



            But ProSpeak should be there already, IMO. Especially if they're going to
            tell us something new like YPT is required to be considered trained. (On our
            council's training continuum, YPT shows up in the "Ongoing Supplemental
            Training" section, but we of course strongly encourage everyone to take it
            and offer it live immediately after LST. Does my council have this wrong?)



            Margo



            From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of Brian Sutilla
            Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 7:13 PM
            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: NLE Online



            Ida and all,

            You are correct in what you heard. The article was in the latest
            ProSpeak.

            The main point of the article was more about what is now required for
            Cub Scout Leaders to be considered trained, and be able to wear the
            trained patch (alright everyone get ready to be shocked):

            1. Fast Start for position (instructor led, online, video)
            2. New Leader Essentials (instructor led)
            3. Cub Scout Leader Specifics-for position (instructor led)
            4. Youth Protection (instructor led or online)

            Now, the last I heard and not to start the blazing fire on this topic
            again, but there are 3 methods for instructor led courses for
            participants to be trained:

            1. Take the course
            2. One-on-one (table top) training
            3. Self-study

            We all have our opinions on whether one is better than the other, that
            is not the point ( I will say, I have taken some instructor led
            courses that I wish I had been given the syllabus to read myself :) ).
            The last I read an these 3 methods are still valid.

            Ida, I do know a few council's out there that have made their own
            online version of NLE. Could this be considered self-study?

            Now why did national only put instructor led on NLE? Because they
            have not developed, and currently NO PLAN TO develop, a NLE module to
            be put into the Online Learning Center. (This is stated in the
            webmaster's section/maintenance logs on the national web site)

            I hope this helps to clarify this for you Ida.

            Yours in Scouting,
            Brian M. Sutilla
            Senior District Executive (for a few more days)
            (soon to be) District Director
            C-07-00 - Buffalo

            --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> , "Ida
            Lively" <Ilively@...> wrote:
            >
            > I heard that there's an article in the latest Professional BSA Mag
            > that the ONLY training accepted for NLE is those taught by a person.
            >
            > I know there is at least one council out there that has an amazing NLE
            > online, but .... so says National, it's not acceptable for use to
            > receive the Trained patch.
            >
            >
            > Ida
            >





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • corinnajones@hotmail.com
            Personally, I would suggest for all leaders and those in direct contact with scouts take YPT shortly after Fast Start. It s our church s (CO s) policy, and I
            Message 5 of 20 , Apr 14, 2008
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              Personally, I would suggest for all leaders and those in direct contact with
              scouts take YPT shortly after Fast Start. It's our church's (CO's) policy,
              and I don't think there's anything wrong with making YPT mandatory for being
              "trained". There is really no excuse not to do it.

              You're right about running NLE first, since all new leaders attending
              training need to take it. The breakouts will probably take different lengths
              of time based on syllabus and participants. It's part of valuing a
              volunteer's free time. Having people wait around for another group to finish
              the leader specific session or requiring seperate training days just doesn't
              sound right.

              Having started out in scouting with a pack that did not encourage leaders to
              get registered or trained, running a boring program with disillusioned
              leadership - turning it around with a new and larger group of leaders,
              registered, trained, and enthusiastic, running a strong program, retaining
              most and regularly adding new scouts through the year. In about a year it
              was a difference like day and night.

              Training is the key to so much we do, and still BSA seems so laid back if it
              comes down to having its program presented as intended, including a focus on
              safety (by requiring all leaders to get trained). The materials are there,
              but accessed by few. Making YPT "mandatory" will hopefully take things in
              the right direction.

              JMO,
              Corinna
            • Gerry Moon
              I m not nearly as well connected as many of you, but as a Cub trainer I can see how putting Position Specifics first and NLE afterward makes good sense. When
              Message 6 of 20 , Apr 14, 2008
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                I'm not nearly as well connected as many of you, but as a Cub
                trainer I can see how putting Position Specifics first and NLE
                afterward makes good sense. When we collect evals from leaders doing
                both in a day, the NLE evals always say "more specific to my job" -
                before they get the other half. And this even after 'splaining to
                tham that the first part is a superficial generic overview of the
                whole big organization then the 2d part hanes in on why they are
                there that day.

                For leaders that can take only one part at a time, I think it better
                to opt for Position Specifics forst - since that is where the "meat"
                is - while a brand new leader, say a Tiger Cub DL, is thrown stuff
                about Boy Scouts and Venturing in the first hour or two and they
                wind up confused and somewhat bewildered.

                Not to lessen NLE's importance, but just to say that were I once
                again a green newbie novice on my first day of training, I can see
                how PST would benefit me and calm ny nerves if it were presented
                prior to NLE.

                I would applaud a national mandate for YP being required for all
                leaders to be considered trained, too.

                Gerry Moon
                Orlando, FL

                --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, <corinnajones@...> wrote:
                >
                > Personally, I would suggest for all leaders and those in direct
                contact with
                > scouts take YPT shortly after Fast Start. It's our church's (CO's)
                policy,
                > and I don't think there's anything wrong with making YPT mandatory
                for being
                > "trained". There is really no excuse not to do it.
                >
                > You're right about running NLE first, since all new leaders
                attending
                > training need to take it. The breakouts will probably take
                different lengths
                > of time based on syllabus and participants. It's part of valuing a
                > volunteer's free time. Having people wait around for another group
                to finish
                > the leader specific session or requiring seperate training days
                just doesn't
                > sound right.
                >
                > Having started out in scouting with a pack that did not encourage
                leaders to
                > get registered or trained, running a boring program with
                disillusioned
                > leadership - turning it around with a new and larger group of
                leaders,
                > registered, trained, and enthusiastic, running a strong program,
                retaining
                > most and regularly adding new scouts through the year. In about a
                year it
                > was a difference like day and night.
                >
                > Training is the key to so much we do, and still BSA seems so laid
                back if it
                > comes down to having its program presented as intended, including
                a focus on
                > safety (by requiring all leaders to get trained). The materials
                are there,
                > but accessed by few. Making YPT "mandatory" will hopefully take
                things in
                > the right direction.
                >
                > JMO,
                > Corinna
                >
              • JNDunnMN@aol.com
                In a message dated 4/14/2008 10:14:30 AM Central Daylight Time, meadclan@comcast.net writes:
                Message 7 of 20 , Apr 14, 2008
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                  In a message dated 4/14/2008 10:14:30 AM Central Daylight Time,
                  meadclan@... writes:

                  <<And, why is NLE listed 2nd and LST listed third, when the Oct. issue of
                  Scouter magazine stated that we were to have leaders take LST first, then
                  NLE (after Fast Start of course)? Our district has not made this change yet.
                  We are in the rut of doing NLE first for everyone and then splitting out
                  into the different-length Cub, Varsity and Venturing trainings. We'll get
                  there, and it will probably be faster than it is taking for the new Cub
                  Scout training to come out. >>
                  I have heard that this change in order recommendation is to be implemented
                  with the mythical new Cub Scout Leader Training syllabus. I went back and
                  looked at the online version of the October issue of Scouting and could not find
                  this recommendation, but I'm really tired after teaching at our Univ of
                  Scouting this weekend, and so may have missed it.



                  YiS,
                  Jamie Niss Dunn
                  Pack Trainer, P. 512
                  Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
                  Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner
                  Cub Scout Training Coordinator
                  3 Rivers District
                  Scouting. Good for Life.



                  **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money &
                  Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolcmp00300000002850)


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Ilively@comcast.net
                  From my time at Philmont last summer, I can say that we were told that National wants to revamp NLE, because what it is (currently) does not fit what most
                  Message 8 of 20 , Apr 14, 2008
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                    From my time at Philmont last summer, I can say that we were told that National wants to revamp NLE, because what it is (currently) does not fit what most leaders think of as "NLE".

                    In 2004, we were told that we were allowed to create our own 'essentials' course as deemed necessary.

                    I can't count the times I've taught NLE, and most of them have been to Cub Scout Leaders .... but, thinking of NLE as a 'whole', I think it fits. It tells a bit of history, covers ideals, aims and methods of scouting, a bit of keeping scouting safe (the corny 'too deep'), drivers (who wants to ride with this guy?), how Scouting progresses through the life of youth (Ages and Stages - Carver Co. picnic) and it covers structure (the bullsye w/ the scout in the center) and literature. And, best of all, it tells new leaders "Don't freak out."

                    Those parts fit for ALL three programs (CS, BS, V)



                    Where should it fall? Good question. It makes sense to be right after Fast Start. But, it's not what most leaders need to know in order to do their jobs. That's what they REALLY need to know. That's what they most WANT to know.

                    But, are you going to get them back after Basic/ Specific training?

                    I think that's why it's a perfect course for Pack Trainers (and Troop Trainers, Crew Trainers) to lead within the unit. To give the overview of the entire program, once the new Leaders have gotten their feet wet.


                    Logical progression in MY eyes (read: Your mileage may vary ... sticks and stones ... people in glass houses, etc.)

                    Fast Start
                    Youth Protection
                    Specific
                    NLE
                    "Advanced training"
                    - RT
                    - Pow Wow/University of Scouting, etc.


                    Ida
                  • Margo Mead
                    ... find ... It s in the article titled Always Something New To Learn, in the third paragraph that s under the heading Flexible Training Opportunities.
                    Message 9 of 20 , Apr 14, 2008
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                      >I went back and
                      >looked at the online version of the October issue of Scouting and could not
                      find
                      >this recommendation,



                      It's in the article titled "Always Something New To Learn," in the third
                      paragraph that's under the heading "Flexible Training Opportunities." It's a
                      parenthetical phrase: "(The Cub Scout Division now recommends that New
                      Leader Essentials take place after Leader Specific Training.)"



                      So I guess really what we're supposed to be doing is NLE first for Boy
                      Scout, Varsity and Venturing Leaders, but last for Cub Scout leaders. Yup,
                      sounds like a winning plan to me. (NOT)



                      Margo







                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Walsh, John (AGO)
                      I guess I m confused now. I thought that NLE was an overview of the entire scouting program. I thought that it was about the goals, and aims and methods of
                      Message 10 of 20 , Apr 14, 2008
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                        I guess I'm confused now. I thought that NLE was an overview of the
                        entire scouting program. I thought that it was about the goals, and
                        aims and methods of the scouting. Once we learned about the big picture
                        from tigers through crews, ships, posts, and teams; then we learned
                        about our specific niche in the larger scheme.



                        John Walsh

                        CR Pack 47

                        CC Troop 48

                        CC Crew 48

                        Lynnfield, Mass.

                        From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On
                        Behalf Of Margo Mead
                        Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 5:56 PM
                        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: NLE Online



                        >I went back and
                        >looked at the online version of the October issue of Scouting and could
                        not
                        find
                        >this recommendation,

                        It's in the article titled "Always Something New To Learn," in the third
                        paragraph that's under the heading "Flexible Training Opportunities."
                        It's a
                        parenthetical phrase: "(The Cub Scout Division now recommends that New
                        Leader Essentials take place after Leader Specific Training.)"

                        So I guess really what we're supposed to be doing is NLE first for Boy
                        Scout, Varsity and Venturing Leaders, but last for Cub Scout leaders.
                        Yup,
                        sounds like a winning plan to me. (NOT)

                        Margo

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Jim von Schmacht
                        One of the biggest problems with the current order is that it doesn t directly serve the frontline leaders in Cub Scouting. Fast Start and Specific do that.
                        Message 11 of 20 , Apr 14, 2008
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                          One of the biggest problems with the current order is that it doesn't
                          directly serve the frontline leaders in Cub Scouting. Fast Start and
                          Specific do that. Seeing the big picture is kinda hard when you have 8
                          pairs of eyes (16 for Tigers) staring at you and you don't have a clear
                          and confident idea of how to proceed. Turnover of leaders in Cub
                          Scouting is horrendous compared to Teams, Troops, and Crews, where you
                          have in-place mentors (usually) to bring you up to speed. Many leaders
                          have only a single session free to attend training and have to choose.
                          Those that get specific earlier are going to be more successful - I
                          think we are agreed on that point. The best delivery of NLE comes when
                          we have a large diverse group of trainees from all programs, but that is
                          usually not what we get in our district. We have very few Venturing
                          units; most of our Venturing leaders are trained. The specific training
                          for Boy Scouts takes all day, so they won't be there. So what we have
                          left are mostly cubbies and A GREAT DEAL OF THE INFORMATION is USELESS
                          to them - Boy Scouts is five years away for a Tiger leader, eight for
                          Venturing. Tell me again how this helps the new leader work with his
                          Cubs right out of the gate? NLE is an important goal, Specific is
                          critical. Just my humble but perhaps to forcefully expounded upon
                          opinion.



                          I asked every Cub Leader I trained that took both which they found of
                          more use to them RIGHT NOW - the answer without exception was Specific.
                          We need to give them what they NEED, not what WE THINK they need. :-)



                          Jim von Schmacht

                          Loma Prieta District Training Chair

                          Monterey Bay Area Council

                          ________________________________

                          From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On
                          Behalf Of Walsh, John (AGO)
                          Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 3:17 PM
                          To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: NLE Online



                          I guess I'm confused now. I thought that NLE was an overview of the
                          entire scouting program. I thought that it was about the goals, and
                          aims and methods of the scouting. Once we learned about the big picture
                          from tigers through crews, ships, posts, and teams; then we learned
                          about our specific niche in the larger scheme.

                          John Walsh

                          CR Pack 47

                          CC Troop 48

                          CC Crew 48

                          Lynnfield, Mass.

                          From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com>
                          [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> ]
                          On
                          Behalf Of Margo Mead
                          Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 5:56 PM
                          To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com>
                          Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: NLE Online

                          >I went back and
                          >looked at the online version of the October issue of Scouting and could
                          not
                          find
                          >this recommendation,

                          It's in the article titled "Always Something New To Learn," in the third
                          paragraph that's under the heading "Flexible Training Opportunities."
                          It's a
                          parenthetical phrase: "(The Cub Scout Division now recommends that New
                          Leader Essentials take place after Leader Specific Training.)"

                          So I guess really what we're supposed to be doing is NLE first for Boy
                          Scout, Varsity and Venturing Leaders, but last for Cub Scout leaders.
                          Yup,
                          sounds like a winning plan to me. (NOT)

                          Margo

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Jamie Niss Dunn
                          Message 12 of 20 , Apr 14, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            <<I guess I'm confused now. I thought that NLE was an overview of the
                            entire scouting program. I thought that it was about the goals, and
                            aims and methods of the scouting. Once we learned about the big picture
                            from tigers through crews, ships, posts, and teams; then we learned
                            about our specific niche in the larger scheme. >>

                            Well, that was the idea. And, on the whole it *seems* logical. But its not what people walk into the room expecting. They want to learn how to lead a den. NOW. They don't care about methods, or youth development or all that background stuff. They have a den meeting to run next week, or a budget to set up, or an award ceremony, and they need help.

                            If we were able to manage their expectations before walking in the room, then the current structure may still be viable. However, unless the training team has contact with them prior to the event, or someone from their unit explains what is going to happen,they aren't getting what they expect. I think we would all agree that giving them what they want is a better way to create positive attitudes about attending training.?


                            YiS,
                            Jamie Niss Dunn
                            Pack Trainer, Pack 512
                            Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
                            Cub Scout Training Coordinator
                            Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner
                            3 Rivers District
                            Scouting. Good for Life.




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Rick Rambo
                            Margo To me it sounds like this would be more applicable in the range of if you were choosing which class to have, NLE or Specifics. It probably matters very
                            Message 13 of 20 , Apr 14, 2008
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                              Margo

                              To me it sounds like this would be more applicable in the range of if you
                              were choosing which class to have, NLE or Specifics. It probably matters
                              very little if both are being in the same day as you are talking about



                              Rick Rambo

                              _____

                              From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                              Of Margo Mead
                              Sent: Monday, April 14, 2008 2:56 PM
                              To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: NLE Online



                              >I went back and
                              >looked at the online version of the October issue of Scouting and could not
                              find
                              >this recommendation,

                              It's in the article titled "Always Something New To Learn," in the third
                              paragraph that's under the heading "Flexible Training Opportunities." It's a
                              parenthetical phrase: "(The Cub Scout Division now recommends that New
                              Leader Essentials take place after Leader Specific Training.)"

                              So I guess really what we're supposed to be doing is NLE first for Boy
                              Scout, Varsity and Venturing Leaders, but last for Cub Scout leaders. Yup,
                              sounds like a winning plan to me. (NOT)

                              Margo

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Rick Rambo
                              Margo wrote: But ProSpeak should be there already, IMO. Especially if they re going to tell us something new like YPT is required to be considered
                              Message 14 of 20 , Apr 14, 2008
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                                Margo wrote:

                                <snip>


                                But ProSpeak should be there already, IMO. Especially if they're going to
                                tell us something new like YPT is required to be considered trained. (On our
                                council's training continuum, YPT shows up in the "Ongoing Supplemental
                                Training" section, but we of course strongly encourage everyone to take it
                                and offer it live immediately after LST. Does my council have this wrong?)




                                I agree - if they ARE going to actually make YP a requirement, a heads up
                                would be in order.

                                I attended Commissioner Basic Training Saturday and was told that even
                                though we require YP every two years that the "official" word from National
                                was that once you have taken it that was all that was required.

                                Rick Rambo



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Brian Sutilla
                                Margo and all, In what order can leaders take training? In any order. (may be I should have used stars/bullets instead) There are only a few courses that
                                Message 15 of 20 , Apr 15, 2008
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                                  Margo and all,

                                  In what order can leaders take training?

                                  In any order. (may be I should have used stars/bullets instead)

                                  There are only a few courses that require prior trainings in order for
                                  a leader to take another. (the only example that comes to mind right
                                  now is Wood Badge) Otherwise, leaders can take trainings in ANY
                                  order. How many do you know that took NLE, Specifics, and YPT; then
                                  in order to earn the knot did Fast Start?

                                  To your second part, remember these course were designed to be
                                  stand-alone courses on different days. 90 minutes for NLE; 65 minutes
                                  for YPT; 2:35 for Tiger Leader Specifics, 2:55 for Webelos Leader
                                  Specifics; etc.

                                  When conceived the course were not meant to be part of all day
                                  trainings marathons. But is it wrong to do it that way? Not if
                                  people are coming and doing the sessions and getting trained.

                                  As to whether you do your Leader Specifics or NLE first or
                                  second...The recommendation is coming/came to do Leader specifics.
                                  But if you are doing an all day training, what would it matter if you
                                  get NLE or Leader Specifics first since they are getting them in the
                                  same day. The recommendation was to do LST first, based on the
                                  assumption that the courses are being held separately, as designed.

                                  As to the Youth Protection Training, that was reason for my "get ready
                                  to be shocked" tongue in cheek comment. This along with fast start
                                  are the new requirements in order for Cub Scout Leaders to receive the
                                  trained patch. Your council did not have it wrong, this is NEW!

                                  BTW, off topic, as for ProSpeak being ahead of the game...it is like
                                  any other BSA publication with wonderful information. However,
                                  sometimes Scouting Magazine has it first, and it is the first time we
                                  (pro's) see it.

                                  Yours in Scouting,
                                  Brian Sutilla.



                                  --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Margo Mead" <meadclan@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > So does that mean we should not be handing out the trained patches
                                  at the
                                  > end of LST?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > And, why is NLE listed 2nd and LST listed third, when the Oct. issue of
                                  > Scouter magazine stated that we were to have leaders take LST first,
                                  then
                                  > NLE (after Fast Start of course)? Our district has not made this
                                  change yet.
                                  > We are in the rut of doing NLE first for everyone and then splitting out
                                  > into the different-length Cub, Varsity and Venturing trainings.
                                  We'll get
                                  > there, and it will probably be faster than it is taking for the new Cub
                                  > Scout training to come out.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > But ProSpeak should be there already, IMO. Especially if they're
                                  going to
                                  > tell us something new like YPT is required to be considered trained.
                                  (On our
                                  > council's training continuum, YPT shows up in the "Ongoing Supplemental
                                  > Training" section, but we of course strongly encourage everyone to
                                  take it
                                  > and offer it live immediately after LST. Does my council have this
                                  wrong?)
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Margo
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com]
                                  On Behalf
                                  > Of Brian Sutilla
                                  > Sent: Sunday, April 13, 2008 7:13 PM
                                  > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: NLE Online
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Ida and all,
                                  >
                                  > You are correct in what you heard. The article was in the latest
                                  > ProSpeak.
                                  >
                                  > The main point of the article was more about what is now required for
                                  > Cub Scout Leaders to be considered trained, and be able to wear the
                                  > trained patch (alright everyone get ready to be shocked):
                                  >
                                  > 1. Fast Start for position (instructor led, online, video)
                                  > 2. New Leader Essentials (instructor led)
                                  > 3. Cub Scout Leader Specifics-for position (instructor led)
                                  > 4. Youth Protection (instructor led or online)
                                  >
                                  > Now, the last I heard and not to start the blazing fire on this topic
                                  > again, but there are 3 methods for instructor led courses for
                                  > participants to be trained:
                                  >
                                  > 1. Take the course
                                  > 2. One-on-one (table top) training
                                  > 3. Self-study
                                  >
                                  > We all have our opinions on whether one is better than the other, that
                                  > is not the point ( I will say, I have taken some instructor led
                                  > courses that I wish I had been given the syllabus to read myself :) ).
                                  > The last I read an these 3 methods are still valid.
                                  >
                                  > Ida, I do know a few council's out there that have made their own
                                  > online version of NLE. Could this be considered self-study?
                                  >
                                  > Now why did national only put instructor led on NLE? Because they
                                  > have not developed, and currently NO PLAN TO develop, a NLE module to
                                  > be put into the Online Learning Center. (This is stated in the
                                  > webmaster's section/maintenance logs on the national web site)
                                  >
                                  > I hope this helps to clarify this for you Ida.
                                  >
                                  > Yours in Scouting,
                                  > Brian M. Sutilla
                                  > Senior District Executive (for a few more days)
                                  > (soon to be) District Director
                                  > C-07-00 - Buffalo
                                  >
                                  > --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                  <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> , "Ida
                                  > Lively" <Ilively@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > I heard that there's an article in the latest Professional BSA Mag
                                  > > that the ONLY training accepted for NLE is those taught by a person.
                                  > >
                                  > > I know there is at least one council out there that has an amazing NLE
                                  > > online, but .... so says National, it's not acceptable for use to
                                  > > receive the Trained patch.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Ida
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                • Ida Lively
                                  ... stand-alone courses on different days. 90 minutes for NLE; 65 minutes for YPT; 2:35 for Tiger Leader Specifics, 2:55 for Webelos Leader Specifics; etc.
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Apr 15, 2008
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                                    > To your second part, remember these course were designed to be
                                    stand-alone courses on different days. 90 minutes for NLE; 65 minutes
                                    for YPT; 2:35 for Tiger Leader Specifics, 2:55 for Webelos Leader
                                    Specifics; etc.

                                    When conceived the course were not meant to be part of all day
                                    trainings marathons. But is it wrong to do it that way? Not if
                                    people are coming and doing the sessions and getting trained.

                                    -------------------------

                                    Why should we take up more than one day of our trainers and leaders
                                    time? If they're willing to give up the day to take the training, why
                                    not give them as much as their butts can stand? (Honestly, it's often
                                    the butt that gives out before the mind, even though a full day of
                                    training can lead to information overload.)

                                    Presumably, those leaders taking the program have youth in Scouting.
                                    The leaders are therefore away from those youth, and may need to be
                                    paying a sitter so that they can attend training.


                                    We all know that trainers don't have lives outside of training, so we
                                    don't count in the equation. ;)


                                    Ida
                                  • Brian Sutilla
                                    Actually, the reason for the change was well....feedback from volunteers. The feedback was that courses were too long, and they couldn t get people to attend
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Apr 15, 2008
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                                      Actually, the reason for the change was well....feedback from
                                      volunteers. The feedback was that courses were too long, and they
                                      couldn't get people to attend (multiple) all day courses.

                                      So in 2000, they broke the courses down. To manageable, shorter,
                                      evening style courses. (remember cub basic used to be 8 hours; boy
                                      scout used to be a full evening, a full Saturday and a full weekend; etc.)

                                      Pulled "everything" that was simalar between all the levels (Cub
                                      Scouting, Boy Scouting, Varsity Scouting and Venturing) and developed
                                      New Leader Essentials. This course only needed to be taken once.

                                      They also were told, that leaders only wanted to know about their
                                      responsibilities to do their positions. Thus specifics were created.
                                      When you are a Tiger Leader you take Tiger Leader Specifics. When
                                      you then become Cubmaster you take Cubmaster Specifics. Etc.

                                      Now in theory this is sound. It practice this is also sound, provided
                                      you have a "large" training staff dedicated to doing these trainings
                                      regularly.

                                      We offer NLE once a month (at roundtable as a breakout). We offer Cub
                                      Leader Specifics about once a month. Scoutmaster Specifics 2-4 times
                                      a year. Outdoor courses 1-2 times a year. Venturing leader 1-2 times
                                      a year. Trainer Development once a year. etc. Plus all these courses
                                      are advertised as we will come to you, get your entire unit trained in
                                      NLE for example.

                                      > We all know that trainers don't have lives outside of training, so we
                                      > don't count in the equation. ;)

                                      LOL, neither to pro's. ;P

                                      Brian



                                      --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Ida Lively" <Ilively@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > To your second part, remember these course were designed to be
                                      > stand-alone courses on different days. 90 minutes for NLE; 65 minutes
                                      > for YPT; 2:35 for Tiger Leader Specifics, 2:55 for Webelos Leader
                                      > Specifics; etc.
                                      >
                                      > When conceived the course were not meant to be part of all day
                                      > trainings marathons. But is it wrong to do it that way? Not if
                                      > people are coming and doing the sessions and getting trained.
                                      >
                                      > -------------------------
                                      >
                                      > Why should we take up more than one day of our trainers and leaders
                                      > time? If they're willing to give up the day to take the training, why
                                      > not give them as much as their butts can stand? (Honestly, it's often
                                      > the butt that gives out before the mind, even though a full day of
                                      > training can lead to information overload.)
                                      >
                                      > Presumably, those leaders taking the program have youth in Scouting.
                                      > The leaders are therefore away from those youth, and may need to be
                                      > paying a sitter so that they can attend training.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > We all know that trainers don't have lives outside of training, so we
                                      > don't count in the equation. ;)
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Ida
                                      >
                                    • Dan Kurtenbach
                                      [Ida Lively wrote:] Why should we take up more than one day of our trainers and leaders time? If they re willing to give up the day to take the training, why
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Apr 15, 2008
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                                        [Ida Lively wrote:]
                                        Why should we take up more than one day of our trainers and leaders
                                        time? If they're willing to give up the day to take the training, why
                                        not give them as much as their butts can stand?
                                        [/Ida]

                                        Most of my days aren't really "days" -- they are an assemblage of partial days, like a little tower of those painted wooden blocks of various shapes and sizes. This is especially true on weekends. On a typical Saturday, the 8:30 to 11:00 time block would be occupied with one of the kids' soccer games. Then I'd have maybe three hours that would have to be split between chores at home and driving around running errands, before I had to ferry one of the kids to piano practice. While that was going on, I'd have a 45 minute block of time until it was time to pick up the piano player. Then another two hours or so before dinner -- maybe enough time to mow, edge, and shower. And so on.

                                        The point is, I don't have "days" I can easily give up for training -- especially when I am already giving up a whole weekend every month to Scouting. What I have a lot of are one- and two- and three-hour blocks of time that I can make available for training courses without blowing up the whole day or the family's weekend schedule.

                                        Dan Kurtenbach
                                        Fairfax, VA

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • bill smith
                                        We (district and council folks) tend to forget that time is a valuable, nay precious, commodity for many leader. It exists in various forms as Dan points out.
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Apr 15, 2008
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                                          We (district and council folks) tend to forget that time is a valuable,
                                          nay precious, commodity for many leader. It exists in various forms as
                                          Dan points out. They also spend it wisely. For single parents, "free"
                                          time may hardly exist at all.

                                          When we put on some district event, whether it's training, roundtables,
                                          or some other diversion, it had better be worth the leaders' time. A lot
                                          of what we do isn't. Making new rules about training awards, new
                                          challenges, rearranging schedules and wringing ones hands doesn't help.
                                          We need better training that meets the needs of our unit leaders and is
                                          worth their time to attend.

                                          bill smith
                                          The best gift for a Cub Scout.......
                                          ......get his parents involved!
                                          http://wtsmith.com/rt.html



                                          Dan Kurtenbach wrote:
                                          >
                                          > [Ida Lively wrote:]
                                          > Why should we take up more than one day of our trainers and leaders
                                          > time? If they're willing to give up the day to take the training, why
                                          > not give them as much as their butts can stand?
                                          > [/Ida]
                                          >
                                          > Most of my days aren't really "days" -- they are an assemblage of
                                          > partial days, like a little tower of those painted wooden blocks of
                                          > various shapes and sizes. This is especially true on weekends. On a
                                          > typical Saturday, the 8:30 to 11:00 time block would be occupied with
                                          > one of the kids' soccer games.
                                          >


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Fred Goodwin, CMA
                                          I ve said this before -- when I teach NLE, I always ask how many had Fast Start before. Invariably, out of 20-30 attendees, maybe one or two hands go up.
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Apr 15, 2008
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                                            I've said this before -- when I teach NLE, I always ask how many had
                                            Fast Start before. Invariably, out of 20-30 attendees, maybe one or
                                            two hands go up. Those one or two are not the ones complaining about
                                            NLE.

                                            The ones who did not take Fast Start are the ones looking for the tools
                                            to lead a den meeting. As we all know, they won't get those from NLE.
                                            They get those tools from Fast Start (and Leader Specific).

                                            Whose job is it to see that new leaders get Fast Start? Its the unit's
                                            job. But since they aren't doing it, its the training team and the
                                            "faulty" syllabus that gets blamed. And of course, no one wants to
                                            boot them out because they failed to take the pre-requisite. So what
                                            to do?

                                            Someone had a very good suggestion, which is to start the training day
                                            with Fast Start. I'm no longer training, but if I were, that's what
                                            I'd be doing.

                                            And then I'd go directly into PST, and finish up with NLE, but it would
                                            be done in each break-out, not as a big group. Obviously, you lose
                                            something doing it that way, but maybe the Cub Leaders didn't really
                                            get all that much out of hearing what the Boy Scout and Venturing
                                            leaders had to say anyway.

                                            I guess we're about to find out . . .

                                            Fred Goodwin
                                            former district training chairman
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