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BALOO vs OLS-WL vs IOLS

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  • Fred Goodwin, CMA
    The BALOO syllabus specifically states it is not to be combined with other courses, so while I understand the motivation to combine teachers & resources
    Message 1 of 13 , Apr 2, 2008
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      The BALOO syllabus specifically states it is not to be combined with
      other courses, so while I understand the motivation to combine teachers
      & resources between BALOO and OLS-WL (forgive me for using the acronym
      of the actual syllabus rather than a more cutesy name like "OWL"),
      those who do so should understand you are doing exactly what the
      syllabus says *not* to do.

      OTOH, the OLS-WL syllabus contains an agenda option that combines
      certain sessions with IOLS -- our council has run them together and
      separately, and I can say we haven't run into the sorts of problems
      others describe about WDLs not being ready for IOLS, etc.

      The course material for many sessions is very similar between the two,
      and where they differ (e.g., outdoor activity pins for WDLs vs.
      TF-2C-1C requirements for SMs), we break the groups into separate
      tracks.

      I think there's a reason the BALOO & OLS-WL syllabi are written the way
      they are, and as a trainer, I committed to teaching them as written.

      YMMV

      Fred Goodwin
      former district training chair
    • maria@inkspot.net
      I ve never lead the training, or taken BALOO, because I didn t get really involved until my sons bridged. I think there is value in spreading them out over
      Message 2 of 13 , Apr 3, 2008
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        I've never lead the training, or taken BALOO, because I didn't get
        really involved until my sons bridged. I think there is value in
        spreading them out over your envolvement in scouting. I know when I
        took my training, I learned very little I didn't know, but it re-
        enforced the BSA way. Actually all of the new stuff I've learned had
        nothing to do with the Boy Scout program.

        I think that combining them is a bad idea, for a lot of the same
        reasons others have given. OTOH, you could do them the same weekend
        in the same place and share resources and socializing which isn't
        specific to the training.

        It's sort of like when a bigger troop goes away for a winter weekend
        at a scout camp. They have visiting Weeblos and their parents,
        younger scouts, older scouts, and kids who are doing shake down hikes
        and camping for Philmont. And a few explorer females thrown into the
        mix. There might be 2-3 different hikes, some other activities using
        the camp's climbing wall or rifle range, with different levels of
        skill using them at different times. But meals, evening socializing,
        and Sunday religious service would be mostly as a group.

        Events or training like this take much more planing and organization,
        so that you don't have too much down time, or not enough. But it can
        be done.


        To: Scouter_T <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
        From: "Fred Goodwin, CMA" <fgoodwin@...>
        Date sent: Wed, 2 Apr 2008 21:25:15 -0700 (PDT)
        Subject: [Scouter_T] BALOO vs OLS-WL vs IOLS
        Send reply to: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com

        The BALOO syllabus specifically states it is not to be combined with
        other courses, so while I understand the motivation to combine teachers
        & resources between BALOO and OLS-WL (forgive me for using the acronym
        of the actual syllabus rather than a more cutesy name like "OWL"),
        those who do so should understand you are doing exactly what the
        syllabus says *not* to do.

        OTOH, the OLS-WL syllabus contains an agenda option that combines
        certain sessions with IOLS -- our council has run them together and
        separately, and I can say we haven't run into the sorts of problems
        others describe about WDLs not being ready for IOLS, etc.

        The course material for many sessions is very similar between the two,
        and where they differ (e.g., outdoor activity pins for WDLs vs.
        TF-2C-1C requirements for SMs), we break the groups into separate
        tracks.

        I think there's a reason the BALOO & OLS-WL syllabi are written the way
        they are, and as a trainer, I committed to teaching them as written.

        YMMV

        Fred Goodwin
        former district training chair



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        Maria Hurley
        Malvern, PA USA
      • Natalie Bozier
        I do understand committing to teaching the syllabus as written. The issues that our district and council unit leaders have is that BALOO does not give the
        Message 3 of 13 , May 6, 2008
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          I do understand committing to teaching the syllabus as written. The issues that our district and council unit leaders have is that BALOO does not give the leader enough hands on to be able to take the units camping. I am mostly in a metro area and they new leaders are have not been camping before. We had leaders taking units out with only the BALOO training and could not light their lanterns or camp stoves. Thankfully they were at a council level event with other units present that were there to assist these new leaders. Our solution to this lack of knowledge was that we did 2 supplemental training sets to the leaders that were very new. I guess what I am trying to say is that I believe there needs to be a training set that addresses the new unit leader who has never been camping before and wants to take the unit out.
          Addressing issues like -- night sounds, actually hands-on setting up tents, lighting stoves.

          I realize that these issues are covered in OLS and OWL but the training continuum does not really address a leader who has been placed in a unit (new unit) with no experience. Do you all have any suggestions as to how to get this placed forward? Or are we selling the training incorrectly?

          Natalie F Bozier
          Eastern District Training Chairman
          Chickasaw Council
          Memphis,TN


          ----- Original Message ----
          From: "Fred Goodwin, CMA" <fgoodwin@...>
          To: Scouter_T <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, April 2, 2008 11:25:15 PM
          Subject: [Scouter_T] BALOO vs OLS-WL vs IOLS


          The BALOO syllabus specifically states it is not to be combined with
          other courses, so while I understand the motivation to combine teachers
          & resources between BALOO and OLS-WL (forgive me for using the acronym
          of the actual syllabus rather than a more cutesy name like "OWL"),
          those who do so should understand you are doing exactly what the
          syllabus says *not* to do.

          OTOH, the OLS-WL syllabus contains an agenda option that combines
          certain sessions with IOLS -- our council has run them together and
          separately, and I can say we haven't run into the sorts of problems
          others describe about WDLs not being ready for IOLS, etc.

          The course material for many sessions is very similar between the two,
          and where they differ (e.g., outdoor activity pins for WDLs vs.
          TF-2C-1C requirements for SMs), we break the groups into separate
          tracks.

          I think there's a reason the BALOO & OLS-WL syllabi are written the way
          they are, and as a trainer, I committed to teaching them as written.

          YMMV

          Fred Goodwin
          former district training chair



          ____________________________________________________________________________________
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        • Will Strother
          According to the standard syllabus, there are a series of round robins which DO cover lighting stoves (cooking), tent set up and the like. It probably
          Message 4 of 13 , May 6, 2008
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            According to the standard syllabus, there are a series of round robins which DO cover lighting stoves (cooking), tent set up and the like. It probably depends on how the instructor implemented the course.

            Yours In Scouting!

            Will Strother
            Pack 518 - Cubmaster

            SR-830 ... used to be a Buffalo
            SR-909 ... and a good ole Staffer too!

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Natalie Bozier
            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 12:19 PM
            Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] BALOO vs OLS-WL vs IOLS


            I do understand committing to teaching the syllabus as written. The issues that our district and council unit leaders have is that BALOO does not give the leader enough hands on to be able to take the units camping. I am mostly in a metro area and they new leaders are have not been camping before. We had leaders taking units out with only the BALOO training and could not light their lanterns or camp stoves. Thankfully they were at a council level event with other units present that were there to assist these new leaders. Our solution to this lack of knowledge was that we did 2 supplemental training sets to the leaders that were very new. I guess what I am trying to say is that I believe there needs to be a training set that addresses the new unit leader who has never been camping before and wants to take the unit out.
            Addressing issues like -- night sounds, actually hands-on setting up tents, lighting stoves.

            I realize that these issues are covered in OLS and OWL but the training continuum does not really address a leader who has been placed in a unit (new unit) with no experience. Do you all have any suggestions as to how to get this placed forward? Or are we selling the training incorrectly?

            Natalie F Bozier
            Eastern District Training Chairman
            Chickasaw Council
            Memphis,TN

            ----- Original Message ----
            From: "Fred Goodwin, CMA" <fgoodwin@...>
            To: Scouter_T <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, April 2, 2008 11:25:15 PM
            Subject: [Scouter_T] BALOO vs OLS-WL vs IOLS

            The BALOO syllabus specifically states it is not to be combined with
            other courses, so while I understand the motivation to combine teachers
            & resources between BALOO and OLS-WL (forgive me for using the acronym
            of the actual syllabus rather than a more cutesy name like "OWL"),
            those who do so should understand you are doing exactly what the
            syllabus says *not* to do.

            OTOH, the OLS-WL syllabus contains an agenda option that combines
            certain sessions with IOLS -- our council has run them together and
            separately, and I can say we haven't run into the sorts of problems
            others describe about WDLs not being ready for IOLS, etc.

            The course material for many sessions is very similar between the two,
            and where they differ (e.g., outdoor activity pins for WDLs vs.
            TF-2C-1C requirements for SMs), we break the groups into separate
            tracks.

            I think there's a reason the BALOO & OLS-WL syllabi are written the way
            they are, and as a trainer, I committed to teaching them as written.

            YMMV

            Fred Goodwin
            former district training chair


            __________________________________________________________
            Be a better friend, newshound, and
            know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Gerry Moon
            Bravo, Fred...my sentiments exactly. BALOO is what it is, prescribed by National snd we are committed to teach it as written. Yeah, we may bolster a few weak
            Message 5 of 13 , May 6, 2008
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              Bravo, Fred...my sentiments exactly. BALOO is what it is, prescribed
              by National snd we are committed to teach it as written. Yeah, we
              may bolster a few weak points here and there, but by & large, it's
              by the book, nothing less and little more.

              Nothing I'm aware of, though, prohibits a training team from putting
              together a supplemental NOT FOR CREDIT <banish the thought!> course
              to augment outdoor skills. I've wanted to do one for a long time -
              but when you are mired in Cub training (we do lots of it here, 7-8
              rounds of NLE/PST + a BALOO and OLS-WL every cycle) it becomes
              difficult to add even more to the schedule. This might be a great
              idea to implement at, say, a Cub Family campout or even a UOS.

              Not every training needs to come with a Trained Card or Strip. If
              there is a need, address the need. Do Your Best. It's what we ask of
              the boys and it's what we ask of the adults.

              And personal thanks for using the proper names. I will admit,
              though, that in spoken communincations I catch myself saying "WOLT"
              because it's easier to pronounce than OLS-WL (ol' swell???).

              Gerry Moon
              Orlando, FL

              --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Fred Goodwin, CMA" <fgoodwin@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > The BALOO syllabus specifically states it is not to be combined
              with
              > other courses, so while I understand the motivation to combine
              teachers
              > & resources between BALOO and OLS-WL (forgive me for using the
              acronym
              > of the actual syllabus rather than a more cutesy name like "OWL"),
              > those who do so should understand you are doing exactly what the
              > syllabus says *not* to do.
              >
              > OTOH, the OLS-WL syllabus contains an agenda option that combines
              > certain sessions with IOLS -- our council has run them together and
              > separately, and I can say we haven't run into the sorts of problems
              > others describe about WDLs not being ready for IOLS, etc.
              >
              > The course material for many sessions is very similar between the
              two,
              > and where they differ (e.g., outdoor activity pins for WDLs vs.
              > TF-2C-1C requirements for SMs), we break the groups into separate
              > tracks.
              >
              > I think there's a reason the BALOO & OLS-WL syllabi are written
              the way
              > they are, and as a trainer, I committed to teaching them as
              written.
              >
              > YMMV
              >
              > Fred Goodwin
              > former district training chair
              >
            • Fred Goodwin, CMA
              ... Understood and I agree. BALOO is an orientation course -- it isn t a skills course. The assumption is, most families will have their own gear and know
              Message 6 of 13 , May 6, 2008
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                > Posted by: "Natalie Bozier" chickasaw_trainer@...
                > Date: Tue May 6, 2008 9:28 am ((PDT))
                >
                > I do understand committing to teaching the syllabus as written. The
                > issues that our district and council unit leaders have is that BALOO
                > does not give the leader enough hands on to be able to take the units
                > camping.

                Understood and I agree.

                BALOO is an "orientation" course -- it isn't a skills course. The
                assumption is, most families will have their own gear and know how to
                use it, or that there will be adults in the pack who can help less
                experienced adults with setting up tents, lighting lanterns, etc.

                As the BALOO-trained person, your job is to properly plan and monitor
                the campout, not to be the person who teaches everyone else how to
                light their stoves.

                > I am mostly in a metro area and they new leaders are have
                > not been camping before. We had leaders taking units out with only
                > the BALOO training and could not light their lanterns or camp stoves.

                As someone else mentioned, BALOO has a breakout that demonstrates this,
                but not all courses have the time (and budget) to allow every attendee
                to prep & light a mantel in a lantern. That's a necessary skill to
                know in order to camp comfortably, and as you say below, there's
                nothing preventing the pack from teaching those skills to less
                experienced adults.

                > Thankfully they were at a council level event with other units
                > present that were there to assist these new leaders. Our solution to
                > this lack of knowledge was that we did 2 supplemental training sets
                > to the leaders that were very new. I guess what I am trying to say
                > is that I believe there needs to be a training set that addresses the
                > new unit leader who has never been camping before and wants to take
                > the unit out.

                Well, BALOO introduces the basics, but not everyone gets a chance to
                build and start a campfire, for example. Even if the district came up
                with a supplemental course to do this, it would take a lot of time and
                resources to plan a course that allows everyone to demonstrate that
                they've learned how to pitch and take down a tent, how to select a
                campsite, how to light a camp stove or lantern, how to safely put out a
                campfire, etc.

                One alternative is that outdoor outfitters (Bass Pro Shops, Cabela's)
                sometimes offer "Camping 101" classes that address exactly this need,
                and usually at no charge.

                > Addressing issues like -- night sounds, actually hands-on
                > setting up tents, lighting stoves.
                >
                > I realize that these issues are covered in OLS and OWL but the
                > training continuum does not really address a leader who has been
                > placed in a unit (new unit) with no experience. Do you all have any
                > suggestions as to how to get this placed forward? Or are we selling
                > the training incorrectly?

                I think that's a problem with most BSA training -- they don't teach
                skills, and certainly don't require the trainees to demonstrate mastery
                of the skills they been introduced to. The training assumes many of
                the actual skills will be learned "on-the-job" as it were.

                When I was CC of my son's pack, we always had new families coming in
                that had never camped before. We assured them that if they brought the
                essentials (tent, sleeping bags, food, water, etc.) they and their sons
                would have a good time.

                We always had a fun program planned and we always did "car-camping" at
                nearby campgrounds, meaning that if you forgot something, a Wal-Mart
                was just minutes away (or even your own home).

                And we had plenty of experienced adults (registered Scouters and
                otherwise) who would be happy to help them setup their tents, show them
                how to light their stoves, etc.

                I know the anxiety level can be very high for first-time campers -- our
                job is to put them at ease, keep their kids happy (including
                non-Scouting siblings) and help them as much as possible to have a good
                time.

                Invariably, once the family returns from the first campout, they
                realize it wasn't nearly as difficult as they thought it might be, and
                they look forward to the next one!

                Good luck,

                Fred Goodwin
                BSRT Commissioner
              • David J Brown
                ... I have a hard time understanding is this a new unit and new leaders. Or a old Pack with a new leader. An old pack with a new leaders should be taken under
                Message 7 of 13 , May 6, 2008
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                  --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Fred Goodwin, CMA" <fgoodwin@...>
                  wrote:
                  >I agree with teaching Baloo syllabus like it is written. But I what
                  I have a hard time understanding is this a new unit and new leaders.
                  Or a old Pack with a new leader. An old pack with a new leaders
                  should be taken under Cub master wing or another leader. We are
                  still doing 2 deep leadership. And a new unit and new leaders should
                  be able to get help from a sister pack or other fellow scouters.
                  Here when we have new units leaders at round tables. It has been
                  suggested on finding a sister pack/unit to go camping with to help
                  with learning how to go camping.
                  Of course I am here in the south. And is lucky to have plenty of
                  help wither it is getting help or helping out. I am a trainer here.
                  And a Wise Ole owl from SR 520
                  > > Posted by: "Natalie Bozier" chickasaw_trainer@...
                  > > Date: Tue May 6, 2008 9:28 am ((PDT))
                  > >
                  > > I do understand committing to teaching the syllabus as written.
                  The
                  > > issues that our district and council unit leaders have is that
                  BALOO
                  > > does not give the leader enough hands on to be able to take the
                  units
                  > > camping.
                  >
                  > Understood and I agree.
                  >
                  > BALOO is an "orientation" course -- it isn't a skills course. The
                  > assumption is, most families will have their own gear and know how
                  to
                  > use it, or that there will be adults in the pack who can help less
                  > experienced adults with setting up tents, lighting lanterns, etc.
                  >
                  > As the BALOO-trained person, your job is to properly plan and
                  monitor
                  > the campout, not to be the person who teaches everyone else how to
                  > light their stoves.
                  >
                  > > I am mostly in a metro area and they new leaders are have
                  > > not been camping before. We had leaders taking units out with
                  only
                  > > the BALOO training and could not light their lanterns or camp
                  stoves.
                  >
                  > As someone else mentioned, BALOO has a breakout that demonstrates
                  this,
                  > but not all courses have the time (and budget) to allow every
                  attendee
                  > to prep & light a mantel in a lantern. That's a necessary skill to
                  > know in order to camp comfortably, and as you say below, there's
                  > nothing preventing the pack from teaching those skills to less
                  > experienced adults.
                  >
                  > > Thankfully they were at a council level event with other units
                  > > present that were there to assist these new leaders. Our
                  solution to
                  > > this lack of knowledge was that we did 2 supplemental training
                  sets
                  > > to the leaders that were very new. I guess what I am trying to
                  say
                  > > is that I believe there needs to be a training set that
                  addresses the
                  > > new unit leader who has never been camping before and wants to
                  take
                  > > the unit out.
                  >
                  > Well, BALOO introduces the basics, but not everyone gets a chance
                  to
                  > build and start a campfire, for example. Even if the district
                  came up
                  > with a supplemental course to do this, it would take a lot of time
                  and
                  > resources to plan a course that allows everyone to demonstrate that
                  > they've learned how to pitch and take down a tent, how to select a
                  > campsite, how to light a camp stove or lantern, how to safely put
                  out a
                  > campfire, etc.
                  >
                  > One alternative is that outdoor outfitters (Bass Pro Shops,
                  Cabela's)
                  > sometimes offer "Camping 101" classes that address exactly this
                  need,
                  > and usually at no charge.
                  >
                  > > Addressing issues like -- night sounds, actually hands-on
                  > > setting up tents, lighting stoves.
                  > >
                  > > I realize that these issues are covered in OLS and OWL but the
                  > > training continuum does not really address a leader who has been
                  > > placed in a unit (new unit) with no experience. Do you all have
                  any
                  > > suggestions as to how to get this placed forward? Or are we
                  selling
                  > > the training incorrectly?
                  >
                  > I think that's a problem with most BSA training -- they don't teach
                  > skills, and certainly don't require the trainees to demonstrate
                  mastery
                  > of the skills they been introduced to. The training assumes many
                  of
                  > the actual skills will be learned "on-the-job" as it were.
                  >
                  > When I was CC of my son's pack, we always had new families coming
                  in
                  > that had never camped before. We assured them that if they
                  brought the
                  > essentials (tent, sleeping bags, food, water, etc.) they and their
                  sons
                  > would have a good time.
                  >
                  > We always had a fun program planned and we always did "car-
                  camping" at
                  > nearby campgrounds, meaning that if you forgot something, a Wal-
                  Mart
                  > was just minutes away (or even your own home).
                  >
                  > And we had plenty of experienced adults (registered Scouters and
                  > otherwise) who would be happy to help them setup their tents, show
                  them
                  > how to light their stoves, etc.
                  >
                  > I know the anxiety level can be very high for first-time campers --
                  our
                  > job is to put them at ease, keep their kids happy (including
                  > non-Scouting siblings) and help them as much as possible to have a
                  good
                  > time.
                  >
                  > Invariably, once the family returns from the first campout, they
                  > realize it wasn't nearly as difficult as they thought it might be,
                  and
                  > they look forward to the next one!
                  >
                  > Good luck,
                  >
                  > Fred Goodwin
                  > BSRT Commissioner
                  >
                • Dan Hammond, Sr.
                  Posted by: Natalie Bozier in part: I do understand committing to teaching the syllabus as written. The issues that our district and council unit leaders
                  Message 8 of 13 , May 7, 2008
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                    Posted by: "Natalie Bozier" in part:

                    "I do understand committing to teaching the syllabus
                    as written. The issues that our district and council
                    unit leaders have is that BALOO does not give the
                    leader enough hands on to be able to take the units
                    camping.
                    <snip>
                    I realize that these issues are covered in OLS and OWL
                    but the training continuum does not really address a
                    leader who has been placed in a unit (new unit) with
                    no experience. Do you all have any suggestions as to
                    how to get this placed forward? Or are we selling
                    the training incorrectly?"


                    An excellent question. Are we selling the training
                    incorrectly?

                    I think we are if we are letting leaders think they
                    will learn any outdoor *skills* at BALOO.

                    The title of the course is Basic Adult Leader Outdoor
                    ORIENTATION. Nothing in the title about skills. The
                    course is about how to plan a pack camping activity.
                    As most of you know it covers how to PLAN the
                    activity.

                    This is a good synopsis of the course that I found on
                    the Central Minesota Council's website:

                    "For all Cubmasters, Assistant Cubmasters, Committee
                    Chairs, Committee members, Den Leaders, and Parents.
                    BALOO is a basic one day outdoor training course to
                    understand the laws of BSA camp programming and to
                    acquire the skills and confidence to PLAN (emphasis
                    added) Cub Scout camping by increasing your knowledge
                    of the resources available from, and to carry out a
                    Cub Scout Camping activity. You will understand the
                    requirements for successful competition of the Cub
                    Scout Camping activity using national and local
                    council standards as guidelines.

                    BALOO includes INFORMATION on:

                    - Preparations for camping with Cub Scouts

                    - Site Selection

                    - Parent Involvement

                    - Health and Safety

                    - Equipment

                    - Feeding

                    - Introduction to Outdoor Skills

                    This Training is required for any adult who is in
                    charge of planning a pack campout, and it is
                    recommended that one adult per Pack complete BALOO
                    training." end quote

                    The BALOO "includes INFORMATION on" Introduction to
                    Outdoor Skills. It is not an outdoor skills course.

                    As trainers we must not only follow the syllabus, but
                    understand just what the syllabus includes and *sell*
                    the training accordingly.

                    As for a brand new leader in a brand new unit, perhaps
                    we shouldn't be working so hard to establish an
                    outdoor program right out of the gate, but should
                    focus on doing well those activities that the new
                    leaders can do, and do well, and work into the outdoor
                    program a bit more gradually. At least the camping
                    aspect of the outdoor program.


                    Daniel D. Hammond, Sr. MA(HRD)
                    Leavenworth, KS, Army Major(Ret), Overtrained Scout Leader,
                    Kaw District Training Chairman, NRA Life Member
                    CM P3001, SM T366
                    |<--W-W-W--<<<| Mic-O-Say HW "Big Quick Steel"
                    I Used to be an Owl... (W-CS-44)
                    And a good old staffer too (C-34-04) (C-38-06)

                    Overprotectiveness is a danger in itself. Children who are treated as though they can't do anything by themselves eventually can't.


                    ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                    know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
                  • dmcdlgcs
                    I agree with Dan, but the rational applies to all the training sessions. We need to be communicate to leaders what the course(s) is about so that they will
                    Message 9 of 13 , May 8, 2008
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                      I agree with Dan, but the rational applies to all the training
                      sessions. We need to be communicate to leaders what the course(s) is
                      about so that they will come with reasonable expectations as to the
                      content.

                      Also, by sticking to the material (although not reading from it), we
                      provide, in theory, a quality control plan so that leaders will have
                      been exposed to the same material, regardless of their location in
                      the country. As a training chair, my goal is to train leaders that
                      can lead anywhere in the country, not just my district/Council.

                      We all experience frustrations with the material (i.e. surprise
                      releases, lack of applied knowledge, etc.). One way I have found of
                      coping, at the Cub Scout level, to focus on the learning objectives
                      and work from there. (I say to myself: "National has defined these
                      items as important items that all leaders should be aware of and
                      learn in this session. How will I deliver it?")

                      Just my thoughts,

                      Dawn Gent
                      Training Chair - Cub Scouts
                      Freedom Trail District, Del-Mar-Va Council
                      Wilmington, DE
                      (plus other experience)

                      --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Hammond, Sr."
                      <danhammondsr@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Posted by: "Natalie Bozier" in part:
                      >
                      > "I do understand committing to teaching the syllabus
                      > as written. The issues that our district and council
                      > unit leaders have is that BALOO does not give the
                      > leader enough hands on to be able to take the units
                      > camping.
                      > <snip>
                      > I realize that these issues are covered in OLS and OWL
                      > but the training continuum does not really address a
                      > leader who has been placed in a unit (new unit) with
                      > no experience. Do you all have any suggestions as to
                      > how to get this placed forward? Or are we selling
                      > the training incorrectly?"
                      >
                      >
                      > An excellent question. Are we selling the training
                      > incorrectly?
                      >
                      > I think we are if we are letting leaders think they
                      > will learn any outdoor *skills* at BALOO.
                      >
                      > The title of the course is Basic Adult Leader Outdoor
                      > ORIENTATION. Nothing in the title about skills. The
                      > course is about how to plan a pack camping activity.
                      > As most of you know it covers how to PLAN the
                      > activity.
                      >
                      > This is a good synopsis of the course that I found on
                      > the Central Minesota Council's website:
                      >
                      > "For all Cubmasters, Assistant Cubmasters, Committee
                      > Chairs, Committee members, Den Leaders, and Parents.
                      > BALOO is a basic one day outdoor training course to
                      > understand the laws of BSA camp programming and to
                      > acquire the skills and confidence to PLAN (emphasis
                      > added) Cub Scout camping by increasing your knowledge
                      > of the resources available from, and to carry out a
                      > Cub Scout Camping activity. You will understand the
                      > requirements for successful competition of the Cub
                      > Scout Camping activity using national and local
                      > council standards as guidelines.
                      >
                      > BALOO includes INFORMATION on:
                      >
                      > - Preparations for camping with Cub Scouts
                      >
                      > - Site Selection
                      >
                      > - Parent Involvement
                      >
                      > - Health and Safety
                      >
                      > - Equipment
                      >
                      > - Feeding
                      >
                      > - Introduction to Outdoor Skills
                      >
                      > This Training is required for any adult who is in
                      > charge of planning a pack campout, and it is
                      > recommended that one adult per Pack complete BALOO
                      > training." end quote
                      >
                      > The BALOO "includes INFORMATION on" Introduction to
                      > Outdoor Skills. It is not an outdoor skills course.
                      >
                      > As trainers we must not only follow the syllabus, but
                      > understand just what the syllabus includes and *sell*
                      > the training accordingly.
                      >
                      > As for a brand new leader in a brand new unit, perhaps
                      > we shouldn't be working so hard to establish an
                      > outdoor program right out of the gate, but should
                      > focus on doing well those activities that the new
                      > leaders can do, and do well, and work into the outdoor
                      > program a bit more gradually. At least the camping
                      > aspect of the outdoor program.
                      >
                      >
                      > Daniel D. Hammond, Sr. MA(HRD)
                      > Leavenworth, KS, Army Major(Ret), Overtrained Scout Leader,
                      > Kaw District Training Chairman, NRA Life Member
                      > CM P3001, SM T366
                      > |<--W-W-W--<<<| Mic-O-Say HW "Big Quick
                      Steel"
                      > I Used to be an Owl... (W-CS-44)
                      > And a good old staffer too (C-34-04) (C-38-06)
                      >
                      > Overprotectiveness is a danger in itself. Children who are treated
                      as though they can't do anything by themselves eventually can't.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      ______________________________________________________________________
                      ______________
                      > Be a better friend, newshound, and
                      > know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
                      http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
                      >
                    • ed5870@aol.com
                      In a message dated 5/6/2008 12:28:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, chickasaw_trainer@yahoo.com writes: The issues that our district and council unit leaders
                      Message 10 of 13 , May 9, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        In a message dated 5/6/2008 12:28:45 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                        chickasaw_trainer@... writes:

                        The issues that our district and council unit leaders have is that BALOO
                        does not give the leader enough hands on to be able to take the units camping.


                        Then the course is not being taught properly. This can all be incorporated
                        in the Round Robins

                        Ed Harvey
                        Training Chair Dutchess District
                        Every Cub Scout deserves a Trained Leader
                        THE HEART OF SCOUTING IS TRAINING
                        Hudson Valley Council
                        I used to be an Antelope



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                      • Ken
                        Fred is absolutely right, we should present the material as it is intended. I see nothing wrong holding multiple courses at the same location to combine the
                        Message 11 of 13 , May 12, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Fred is absolutely right, we should present the material as it is
                          intended. I see nothing wrong holding multiple courses at the same
                          location to combine the admin side, and sharing the trainers. We
                          agree that the actual instruction should be separate, except where the
                          OLSWL syllabus suggests combining with IOLS. The instructors should
                          make separate presentations accordingly to match each syllabus.

                          There are basic skills taught while preparing lunch, or during the
                          Round Robin, but they are more Show, and not Do, due to the amount of
                          time alloted. For the respondent who was concerned about this,
                          Roundtable, Pow Wow, and University of Scouting can help. Another
                          thing to try is a Show & Do event geared specifically at teaching and
                          practicing outdoor skills, if there is a need.

                          We (me included) some times get so wrapped up in offering the basic
                          classes, that we forget to look at the needs of our leaders, and
                          create opportunities to fill those needs. The Wood Badgers in NCAC
                          have started putting on such an event at our Cub Scout camp. They
                          have a reunion and have fun, leaders learn new things :)

                          Also, the Commissioner Corps should be visiting each unit
                          periodically. If they see a Pack preparing for a campout, and not
                          having the experience level, they can find some experienced leaders to
                          help them out the first time or two. Try to find a Troop who could
                          send some Boy Scouts over to show some skills. This is a great
                          experience for both Pack Leaders and Boy Scouts.

                          When I was the Council Cub Scout Training Chair, I heard a number of
                          complaints about the CSLBT syllabus when it came out. My response
                          was, this is why we ask experienced leaders to be on our training
                          staffs. Within the objectives, and basic structure, we add our
                          experience into how we present the material to make it more meaningful
                          to the leader, as opposed to simply reading out of the book. This is
                          done without adding objectives, or straying from the syllabus.

                          I am anxious to see the new syllabi coming out this Spring. Have a
                          great week.
                          Ken


                          --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Fred Goodwin, CMA" <fgoodwin@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > The BALOO syllabus specifically states it is not to be combined with
                          > other courses, so while I understand the motivation to combine
                          teachers & resources ... those who do so should understand you are
                          doing exactly what the syllabus says *not* to do....
                        • Brant Lippincott
                          I respectfully disagree on a point here.... The original BALOO sylabus was created when the OWL course was generally not being taught.  At that time, the only
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jun 9, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I respectfully disagree on a point here....
                            The original BALOO sylabus was created when the OWL course was generally not being taught.  At that time, the only thing that anyone MIGHT even think of trying to combine would be IOLS.
                            I think that if you review the material presented in the BALOO and OWL courses you wil find that there is a great deal of overlap on the "skills" sections:  tents, campsite selection, stoves, lanters, fires, food prep, etc.  I see NO reason why these cannot be combined sessions with the BALOO & OWL people both present. 
                            The sections dealing with what you do on a campout are quite different.  For example, the Webelos activity badges are not of interest to the BALOO people and "Large Group Games" would not be of interest to the Webelos leaders.
                            We've been running the course this way for several years now and find that it works really well.
                            Personally, I think the syllabus comes well short when it talks about combining with IOLS.  For example, there is a section on "Fire Site Preparation & Building".  The syllabus has 20 minutes combined and another 20 minutes for just the Webelos Leaders.  It makes NO mention of what parts to cover together and what to cover for the Webelos Leaders.  I can't fathom what you would spend an extra 20 minutes on with the Webelos Leaders.
                            Just MY thoughts... YMMV
                            For the Boys,
                            Brant Lippincott
                            Cub Training Chair
                            Great Plains District


                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: Ken <krtodd@...>
                            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 8:40:17 PM
                            Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: BALOO vs OLS-WL vs IOLS

                            Fred is absolutely right, we should present the material as it is
                            intended.  I see nothing wrong holding multiple courses at the same
                            location to combine the admin side, and sharing the trainers.  We
                            agree that the actual instruction should be separate, except where the
                            OLSWL syllabus suggests combining with IOLS.  The instructors should
                            make separate presentations accordingly to match each syllabus.

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • ed5870@aol.com
                            I strongly disagree I run both courses and the intent and teaching is miles apart. National specifically forbids it and if you want to give your leaders a good
                            Message 13 of 13 , Jun 9, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I strongly disagree I run both courses and the intent and teaching is miles
                              apart. National specifically forbids it and if you want to give your leaders a
                              good balanced program do not combine them.


                              In a message dated 6/9/2008 5:02:40 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                              brant@... writes:




                              I respectfully disagree on a point here....
                              The original BALOO sylabus was created when the OWL course was generally not
                              being taught. At that time, the only thing that anyone MIGHT even think of
                              trying to combine would be IOLS.
                              I think that if you review the material presented in the BALOO and OWL
                              courses you wil find that there is a great deal of overlap on the "skills"
                              sections: tents, campsite selection, stoves, lanters, fires, food prep, etc. I see
                              NO reason why these cannot be combined sessions with the BALOO & OWL people
                              both present.
                              The sections dealing with what you do on a campout are quite different. For
                              example, the Webelos activity badges are not of interest to the BALOO people
                              and "Large Group Games" would not be of interest to the Webelos leaders.
                              We've been running the course this way for several years now and find that
                              it works really well.
                              Personally, I think the syllabus comes well short when it talks about
                              combining with IOLS. For example, there is a section on "Fire Site Preparation &
                              Building". The syllabus has 20 minutes combined and another 20 minutes for
                              just the Webelos Leaders. It makes NO mention of what parts to cover together
                              and what to cover for the Webelos Leaders. I can't fathom what you would
                              spend an extra 20 minutes on with the Webelos Leaders.
                              Just MY thoughts... YMMV
                              For the Boys,
                              Brant Lippincott
                              Cub Training Chair
                              Great Plains District

                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: Ken <_krtodd@..._ (mailto:krtodd@...) >
                              To: _scouter_t@yahoogrouscoute_ (mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com)
                              Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 8:40:17 PM
                              Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: BALOO vs OLS-WL vs IOLS

                              Fred is absolutely right, we should present the material as it is
                              intended. I see nothing wrong holding multiple courses at the same
                              location to combine the admin side, and sharing the trainers. We
                              agree that the actual instruction should be separate, except where the
                              OLSWL syllabus suggests combining with IOLS. The instructors should
                              make separate presentations accordingly to match each syllabus.

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







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