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Re: [Scouter_T] Patrol Camping

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  • Charles Seltenright
    Your missing the point of patrol camping and the reasons behind it if you make too much of it.It doesent require 2 deep if a group of kids go camping as long
    Message 1 of 24 , Jan 19, 2008
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      Your missing the point of patrol camping and the
      reasons behind it if you make too much of it.It
      doesent require 2 deep if a group of kids go camping
      as long as the Scoutmaster approves it.The idea is
      they can prove themselves if you can trust them.You
      wouldnt send a bunch of trouble makers out camping on
      there own as a SM would you??If a patrol has proven
      themselves to be capable there is nothing wrong with
      it.Why make it more complicated than it really is??I
      have allowed it many times and never was disappointed
      by the results.It really comes down to the SM's
      judgement if its allowed and whether they can do it
      under the scouting framework.Do you trust those that
      want to go camping??Are they capable of handling it
      and responsible enough??Those are the only questions
      you need to ask yourself and your scouts.
      Charles Seltenright
      Crew 308 Advisor
      Troop 337 ASM



      --- Robert Wilson <fishnscout@...> wrote:

      > Thanks for your response Don. I'm curious about this
      > because the tour permit
      > says ya have to have two leaders on campouts. The
      > way I'd do patrol camping
      > is have two deep leadership and have the adults camp
      > in their own patrol a
      > short distance away, but close enough to help with
      > safety issues.
      >
      > Robert
      >
      >
      > On Jan 18, 2008 5:37 PM, Don Wilson
      > <don-wilson@...> wrote:
      >
      > > I cannot see a case where a tour permit would be
      > required. The idea
      > > of Patrol Camping would be for the patrol to
      > either travel by foot or
      > > be dropped of by a parent -- the camp out should
      > not be that far away
      > > from the area that the troop serves, and be in a
      > location that
      > > assistance could be provided should any emergency
      > occur.
      > > Requirements for drivers would limit the scouts
      > from driving as a
      > > group, and the two-deep adult leadership would
      > have to be addressed
      > > in the event that transportation would be
      > required.
      > >
      > > Don Wilson
      > >
      > > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
      > > From: "Robert Wilson" <fishnscout@...>
      > > Date sent: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:36:26 -0500
      > > Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Patrol Camping
      > > Send reply to: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
      > >
      > > > How does this work with Tour Permits and the
      > requirements for that?
      > > >
      > > > Thanks,
      > > > Robert
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > On Jan 17, 2008 5:20 PM, joedet
      > <joedet@...> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > > In going over the YPT video we came upon the
      > Patrol Camping comment.
      > > > >
      > > > > The question I have is.
      > > > >
      > > > > Does anyone know of a Scoutmaster that has
      > approved this and how did
      > > it
      > > > > work
      > > > > with only the Patrol Camping without adults?
      > > > >
      > > > > joedet
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
      > removed]
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > For subscription and delevery options send a
      > message to:
      > > > > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
      > > > >
      > > > > Scouting The Net -
      > http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/
      > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message
      > have been removed]
      > > > >
      > >
      > > -- Success is not the destination, it is the
      > journey.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > For subscription and delevery options send a
      > message to:
      > > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
      > >
      > > Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been
      > removed]
      >
      >



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    • NeilLup@aol.com
      ... Sadly, in today s Scouting, the question is not whether kids can handle it. (They can.) The problem is that if, God forbid, something should
      Message 2 of 24 , Jan 19, 2008
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        In a message dated 1/18/08 11:59:14 PM, deutche01@... writes:


        >
        > Sorry, but you missed the entire point of Patrol
        > camping. The idea is for them to get AWAY from all the
        > adults and do their own thing. Let 'em go, they can
        > handle it!
        > Yours in Scouting and Service,
        > Doc Marshall
        >
        >
        >

        Sadly, in today's Scouting, the question is not whether kids can handle
        it. (They can.)

        The problem is that if, God forbid, something should happen, the legal
        position of the boys, the unit's adults and the BSA could be exceedingly
        difficult. What has changed since the earlier days of Scouting is societal
        expectations, standard of care and supervision expected by parents, etc. plus the
        exceedingly high level of financial burden caused by settlements, judgements,
        etc.

        Having said that, patrol activities are permitted by the guide to safe
        scouting. What is never permitted is to have an activity with one and only one
        adult.

        Best wishes,

        Neil Lupton


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      • Michael Homrighaus
        If only it were simply up to the leaders and the boys. Back in the dark ages, this was an acceptable practice; not today. The leader campsite nearby works, but
        Message 3 of 24 , Jan 19, 2008
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          If only it were simply up to the leaders and the boys. Back in the dark
          ages, this was an acceptable practice; not today. The leader campsite
          nearby works, but under no circumstances can we permit a patrol of
          Scouts to camp without 2-deep leadership. It has nothing to do with
          trusting the Scouts; it is solely about liability of the leadership.
          With a many nut cases as there are out there, and as many bad things as
          can happen, there is no choice. Independent patrol camping died with
          the dinosaurs. Sorry.

          Mike Homrighaus
          AA, Venturing Crew 88
          Cortland, NY
          Baden-Powell Council
        • Kevin Pate
          ... As to the above, I ll agree to disagree, pet Dino, wave to Fred and Wilma, and amble on along the trail 8^) Kevin in Norman, America
          Message 4 of 24 , Jan 19, 2008
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            > ... there is no choice. Independent patrol camping
            > died with the dinosaurs. Sorry.

            As to the above, I'll agree to disagree, pet Dino,
            wave to Fred and Wilma, and amble on along the trail
            8^)

            Kevin in Norman, America


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          • Don Wilson
            Now I am not from Missouri, but this time you gotta show me. Where in available literature have you found anything that indicated that a patrol may camp
            Message 5 of 24 , Jan 19, 2008
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              Now I am not from Missouri, but this time you gotta show me. Where
              in available literature have you found anything that indicated that a
              patrol may camp without two deep ADULT leadership? A day hike or
              special service project - yes -- but that is the extent of the
              activities that a patrol may practice without required adult
              leadership. Please, tell me I am wrong.

              Don Wilson

              -- Success is not the destination, it is the journey.
            • Jamie Niss Dunn
              Two-Deep Leadership Safe Scouting requires adequate adult leadership. For camps, trips, and outdoor activities, this means having at least two adult leaders,
              Message 6 of 24 , Jan 19, 2008
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                Two-Deep Leadership

                Safe Scouting requires adequate adult leadership. For camps, trips, and outdoor activities, this means having at least two adult leaders, one of whom is at least 21 years old. It is unacceptable to have a camp, trip, or outdoor activity with only one adult present. If only one adult is able to attend, the trip must be cancelled. Ideally, at least three adults will accompany the troop on Scouting on trips. ***(Note that for properly trained Boy Scout patrols, it is acceptable to have outdoor patrol activities with no adults present. Such activities do require Scoutmaster approval.)***



                http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=promoi&c=http://www.scouting.org/healthandsafety/index.html

                Emphasis added.

                YiS,
                Jamie Niss Dunn
                Pack Trainer, Pack 512
                Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
                Cub Scout Training Coordinator
                Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner





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              • Jamie Niss Dunn
                Patrol activities—A Boy Scout patrol or Varsity Scout squad may hike or camp with other patrols or squads in the unit or, with the permission of their
                Message 7 of 24 , Jan 19, 2008
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                  "Patrol activities—A Boy Scout patrol or Varsity Scout squad may hike or camp with other patrols or squads in the unit or, with the permission of their Scoutmaster and parents or guardians, may hike or camp on their own."
                  http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-954/index.html


                  Jamie Niss Dunn
                  Pack Trainer, Pack 512
                  Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
                  Cub Scout Training Coordinator
                  Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner






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                • Robert Wilson
                  ... I would hope that older Scouts have the skills to take care of themselves and I could see where they could feel that the adults don t trust them. I would
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jan 19, 2008
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                    On Jan 19, 2008 1:06 AM, Don Wilson <don-wilson@...> wrote:

                    > I guess I could say "Way back when....". There was a time when
                    > patrols were able to have a "patrol camp" without two deep
                    > leadership. We spend years training Scouts, a patrol of 15-16-year
                    > old boys and rather than allow them to put that training to the test,
                    > they must have two leaders to camp overnight? If you were in that
                    > patrol, would you feel that the leaders trusted them? Our Scouts are
                    > not feeble minded, if they want to get together and camp they will do
                    > just that, but outside the parameters of Scouting. Could or would
                    > you forbid them to do that?


                    I would hope that older Scouts have the skills to take care of themselves
                    and I could see where they could feel that the adults don't trust them. I
                    would also hope that they would understand policies and rules.

                    What do we teach new Scoutmasters about how patrol camping works? If the
                    policy is that two deep leadership is required, that is what we should
                    teach. If folks deviate from that, it shouldn't be based on what they are
                    taught.

                    Robert


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Don Wilson
                    I am glad to be proven wrong -- even when the Scoutmaster Handbook states that Every campout and short term camp must have a qualified adult leader, at least
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jan 19, 2008
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                      I am glad to be proven wrong -- even when the Scoutmaster Handbook
                      states that "Every campout and short term camp must have a qualified
                      adult leader, at least 21 years of age, in charge and at least one
                      more responsible adult participating.....Scouts may not depart for a
                      camping trip unless a two-adult minimum of leadership is assured."
                      And further: "Two registered adult leaders or one registered adult
                      leader and a parent or guardian of a participant, one of whom must be
                      at least 21 years of age, are required on all trips and outings.
                      .....This requirement also applies to the activities of provisional
                      troops and of the Order of the Arrow."

                      Thanks, Jamie.

                      Don Wilson

                      To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                      From: Jamie Niss Dunn <JNDunnMN@...>
                      Date sent: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 17:25:28 -0500
                      Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Patrol Camping/Charles
                      Send reply to: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com

                      > "Patrol activities-A Boy Scout patrol or Varsity Scout squad may hike or camp with other patrols or squads in the unit or, with the permission of their Scoutmaster and parents or guardians, may hike or camp on their own."
                      > http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-954/index.html
                      >
                      >
                      > Jamie Niss Dunn
                      > Pack Trainer, Pack 512
                      > Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
                      > Cub Scout Training Coordinator
                      > Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner
                    • doc marshall
                      Thanks, Jamie.My guys will cntinue to do Patrol activities (including campouts) with my permission and without any adults present. As to the weirdos, I d hate
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jan 19, 2008
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                        Thanks, Jamie.My guys will cntinue to do Patrol
                        activities (including campouts) with my permission and
                        without any adults present. As to the weirdos, I'd
                        hate to tackle these guys if they got riled up. They
                        are as well-trained in First Aid/CPR as I am, have
                        some means of communication with the outside world,
                        parents have signed waivers AND, they'd probably shoot
                        me if I didn't let 'em go camping. Prepare for the
                        worst (train the boys) then put some trust in them.
                        They are, aftter all, young men.
                        Yours in Scouting and Service,
                        Doc MArshall
                        --- Jamie Niss Dunn <JNDunnMN@...> wrote:

                        > "Patrol activities—A Boy Scout patrol or Varsity
                        > Scout squad may hike or camp with other patrols or
                        > squads in the unit or, with the permission of their
                        > Scoutmaster and parents or guardians, may hike or
                        > camp on their own."
                        >
                        http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-954/index.html
                        >
                        >
                        > Jamie Niss Dunn
                        > Pack Trainer, Pack 512
                        > Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
                        > Cub Scout Training Coordinator
                        > Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                        > removed]
                        >
                        >
                      • Charles Seltenright
                        Ditto thanks Jamie!! You will find you gain stronger leaders and a better troop if you do allow patrols to camp.As young scouts they elect by popularity as
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jan 20, 2008
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                          Ditto thanks Jamie!!
                          You will find you gain stronger leaders and a better
                          troop if you do allow patrols to camp.As young scouts
                          they elect by popularity as they gain age and
                          experience they elect by leadership and
                          experience.With patrol camping they learn this on
                          there own and apply it in the troop without a single
                          leader (adult)having anything to do with it.
                          Trust is huge in patrol camping but if anyone has any
                          doubts, whether leader or parent, it shouldnt be
                          allowed.BP designed scouting to raise young boys into
                          young men.It still works today as it did back then.

                          Charles Seltenright
                          Crew 308 Advisor
                          Troop 337 ASM


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                        • corinnajones@hotmail.com
                          You might want to consider that the wilderness area of a council camp could be safer than a state park, considering that we pretty much know who enters a Boy
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jan 20, 2008
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                            You might want to consider that the wilderness area of a council camp could
                            be safer than a state park, considering that we pretty much know who enters
                            a Boy Scout camp, but a public park is a different story. Also, at least in
                            our council we don't need a tour permit for that, but I agree about getting
                            a waiver signed by the parents showing that they're aware of what's being
                            done and the potential risks - this is 2008 after all.
                            Corinna
                          • Robert Wilson
                            I ve the #33009B version of the Scoutmaster Handbook and it states at the bottom of page 22, However, patrols may also set out on day hikes, service projects,
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jan 20, 2008
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                              I've the #33009B version of the Scoutmaster Handbook and it states at the
                              bottom of page 22, "However, patrols may also set out on day hikes, service
                              projects, and overnighters independent of the troop and free of adult
                              leadership as long as they follow two rules:
                              - The Scoutmaster approves the patrol activity.
                              - The patrol activity does not interfere with any troop function"

                              It goes on to explain about things being well planned and within their
                              ability and stuff like that. The current handbook is version #33009C. I
                              wonder if it has the same statements. I understand the value of giving folks
                              the freedom to do things on their own, after all, we are moving them from
                              dependence to independence. What I'm trying to get straight is what the BSA
                              policy is now on the subject so that when I'm asked, I can tell them what
                              the official policy is. It looks like the documentation contradicts itself.

                              YIS,
                              Robert



                              On Jan 19, 2008 6:26 PM, Don Wilson <don-wilson@...> wrote:

                              > I am glad to be proven wrong -- even when the Scoutmaster Handbook
                              > states that "Every campout and short term camp must have a qualified
                              > adult leader, at least 21 years of age, in charge and at least one
                              > more responsible adult participating.....Scouts may not depart for a
                              > camping trip unless a two-adult minimum of leadership is assured."
                              > And further: "Two registered adult leaders or one registered adult
                              > leader and a parent or guardian of a participant, one of whom must be
                              > at least 21 years of age, are required on all trips and outings.
                              > .....This requirement also applies to the activities of provisional
                              > troops and of the Order of the Arrow."
                              >
                              > Thanks, Jamie.
                              >
                              > Don Wilson
                              >
                              > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                              > From: Jamie Niss Dunn <JNDunnMN@...>
                              > Date sent: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 17:25:28 -0500
                              > Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Patrol Camping/Charles
                              > Send reply to: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              > > "Patrol activities-A Boy Scout patrol or Varsity Scout squad may hike or
                              > camp with other patrols or squads in the unit or, with the permission of
                              > their Scoutmaster and parents or guardians, may hike or camp on their own."
                              > > http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-954/index.html
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Jamie Niss Dunn
                              > > Pack Trainer, Pack 512
                              > > Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
                              > > Cub Scout Training Coordinator
                              > > Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                              > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              > Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Don Wilson
                              The version I have is #33009A, where on page 3 states that: These are the minimum requirements for becoming a Scoutmaster or assistant Scoutmaster: Be at
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jan 20, 2008
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                                The version I have is #33009A, where on page 3 states that: "These
                                are the minimum requirements for becoming a Scoutmaster or assistant
                                Scoutmaster: Be at least 21 years of age. I will replace my copy on
                                Monday.

                                Yes, I am finding more and more contradictions which might depend on
                                which version one is reading. The largest problem is Guide to Safe
                                Scouting. It certainly would be nice if the right hand knew what the
                                left hand is doing.

                                Don Wilson

                                -- Success is not the destination, it is the journey.
                              • doc marshall
                                And that, folks, is a classic introduction to BSA National! Yours in Scouting and Service, Doc Marshall
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jan 20, 2008
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                                  And that, folks, is a classic introduction to BSA
                                  National!
                                  Yours in Scouting and Service,
                                  Doc Marshall
                                  --- Don Wilson <don-wilson@...> wrote:

                                  > The version I have is #33009A, where on page 3
                                  > states that: "These
                                  > are the minimum requirements for becoming a
                                  > Scoutmaster or assistant
                                  > Scoutmaster: Be at least 21 years of age. I will
                                  > replace my copy on
                                  > Monday.
                                  >
                                  > Yes, I am finding more and more contradictions which
                                  > might depend on
                                  > which version one is reading. The largest problem
                                  > is Guide to Safe
                                  > Scouting. It certainly would be nice if the right
                                  > hand knew what the
                                  > left hand is doing.
                                  >
                                  > Don Wilson
                                  >
                                  > -- Success is not the destination, it is the
                                  > journey.
                                  >
                                  >
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