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Re: [Scouter_T] Patrol Camping

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  • Don Wilson
    I cannot see a case where a tour permit would be required. The idea of Patrol Camping would be for the patrol to either travel by foot or be dropped of by a
    Message 1 of 24 , Jan 18, 2008
      I cannot see a case where a tour permit would be required. The idea
      of Patrol Camping would be for the patrol to either travel by foot or
      be dropped of by a parent -- the camp out should not be that far away
      from the area that the troop serves, and be in a location that
      assistance could be provided should any emergency occur.
      Requirements for drivers would limit the scouts from driving as a
      group, and the two-deep adult leadership would have to be addressed
      in the event that transportation would be required.

      Don Wilson

      To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
      From: "Robert Wilson" <fishnscout@...>
      Date sent: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:36:26 -0500
      Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Patrol Camping
      Send reply to: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com

      > How does this work with Tour Permits and the requirements for that?
      >
      > Thanks,
      > Robert
      >
      >
      > On Jan 17, 2008 5:20 PM, joedet <joedet@...> wrote:
      >
      > > In going over the YPT video we came upon the Patrol Camping comment.
      > >
      > > The question I have is.
      > >
      > > Does anyone know of a Scoutmaster that has approved this and how did it
      > > work
      > > with only the Patrol Camping without adults?
      > >
      > > joedet
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
      > > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
      > >
      > > Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >

      -- Success is not the destination, it is the journey.
    • Lady T
      I can see where tour permit is needed. Here in Texas, it doesn t take much to get pretty far from your normal serving area. When my son was in a relatively
      Message 2 of 24 , Jan 18, 2008
        I can see where tour permit is needed. Here in Texas, it doesn't take much to get pretty far from your normal serving area. When my son was in a relatively new patrol, we took their patrol camping to a State park about an hour and a half away. It was a great place, but we did get a tour permit. And we had more than two deep leadership. Regardless of where the boys camp, even if it's in someone's backyard, there should be two-deep leadership on hand. This is for everyone's safety and protection, not just the boys.

        Make it fun and rewarding, have a great time, but follow BSA policy if you are going as a patrol.

        Trish


        ----- Original Message ----
        From: Don Wilson <don-wilson@...>
        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 4:37:00 PM
        Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Patrol Camping

        I cannot see a case where a tour permit would be required. The idea
        of Patrol Camping would be for the patrol to either travel by foot or
        be dropped of by a parent -- the camp out should not be that far away
        from the area that the troop serves, and be in a location that
        assistance could be provided should any emergency occur.
        Requirements for drivers would limit the scouts from driving as a
        group, and the two-deep adult leadership would have to be addressed
        in the event that transportation would be required.

        Don Wilson

        To: scouter_t@yahoogrou ps.com
        From: "Robert Wilson" <fishnscout@gmail. com>
        Date sent: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:36:26 -0500
        Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Patrol Camping
        Send reply to: scouter_t@yahoogrou ps.com

        > How does this work with Tour Permits and the requirements for that?
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Robert
        >
        >
        > On Jan 17, 2008 5:20 PM, joedet <joedet@hotmail. com> wrote:
        >
        > > In going over the YPT video we came upon the Patrol Camping comment.
        > >
        > > The question I have is.
        > >
        > > Does anyone know of a Scoutmaster that has approved this and how did it
        > > work
        > > with only the Patrol Camping without adults?
        > >
        > > joedet
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
        > > scouter_t-help@ yahoogroups. com
        > >
        > > Scouting The Net - http://www.Scouting TheNet.com/
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >

        -- Success is not the destination, it is the journey.





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      • doc marshall
        Sorry, but you missed the entire point of Patrol camping. The idea is for them to get AWAY from all the adults and do their own thing. Let em go, they can
        Message 3 of 24 , Jan 18, 2008
          Sorry, but you missed the entire point of Patrol
          camping. The idea is for them to get AWAY from all the
          adults and do their own thing. Let 'em go, they can
          handle it!
          Yours in Scouting and Service,
          Doc Marshall
          --- Lady T <eagleladyt@...> wrote:

          > I can see where tour permit is needed. Here in
          > Texas, it doesn't take much to get pretty far from
          > your normal serving area. When my son was in a
          > relatively new patrol, we took their patrol camping
          > to a State park about an hour and a half away. It
          > was a great place, but we did get a tour permit.
          > And we had more than two deep leadership.
          > Regardless of where the boys camp, even if it's in
          > someone's backyard, there should be two-deep
          > leadership on hand. This is for everyone's safety
          > and protection, not just the boys.
          >
          > Make it fun and rewarding, have a great time, but
          > follow BSA policy if you are going as a patrol.
          >
          > Trish
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message ----
          > From: Don Wilson <don-wilson@...>
          > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 4:37:00 PM
          > Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Patrol Camping
          >
          > I cannot see a case where a tour permit would be
          > required. The idea
          > of Patrol Camping would be for the patrol to either
          > travel by foot or
          > be dropped of by a parent -- the camp out should not
          > be that far away
          > from the area that the troop serves, and be in a
          > location that
          > assistance could be provided should any emergency
          > occur.
          > Requirements for drivers would limit the scouts from
          > driving as a
          > group, and the two-deep adult leadership would have
          > to be addressed
          > in the event that transportation would be required.
          >
          > Don Wilson
          >
          > To: scouter_t@yahoogrou ps.com
          > From: "Robert Wilson" <fishnscout@gmail. com>
          > Date sent: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:36:26 -0500
          > Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Patrol Camping
          > Send reply to: scouter_t@yahoogrou ps.com
          >
          > > How does this work with Tour Permits and the
          > requirements for that?
          > >
          > > Thanks,
          > > Robert
          > >
          > >
          > > On Jan 17, 2008 5:20 PM, joedet <joedet@hotmail.
          > com> wrote:
          > >
          > > > In going over the YPT video we came upon the
          > Patrol Camping comment.
          > > >
          > > > The question I have is.
          > > >
          > > > Does anyone know of a Scoutmaster that has
          > approved this and how did it
          > > > work
          > > > with only the Patrol Camping without adults?
          > > >
          > > > joedet
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
          > removed]
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > For subscription and delevery options send a
          > message to:
          > > > scouter_t-help@ yahoogroups. com
          > > >
          > > > Scouting The Net - http://www.Scouting
          > TheNet.com/
          > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
          > removed]
          > > >
          >
          > -- Success is not the destination, it is the
          > journey.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          ____________________________________________________________________________________
          > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
          > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
          >
          http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been
          > removed]
          >
          >
        • Robert Wilson
          Thanks for your response Don. I m curious about this because the tour permit says ya have to have two leaders on campouts. The way I d do patrol camping is
          Message 4 of 24 , Jan 18, 2008
            Thanks for your response Don. I'm curious about this because the tour permit
            says ya have to have two leaders on campouts. The way I'd do patrol camping
            is have two deep leadership and have the adults camp in their own patrol a
            short distance away, but close enough to help with safety issues.

            Robert


            On Jan 18, 2008 5:37 PM, Don Wilson <don-wilson@...> wrote:

            > I cannot see a case where a tour permit would be required. The idea
            > of Patrol Camping would be for the patrol to either travel by foot or
            > be dropped of by a parent -- the camp out should not be that far away
            > from the area that the troop serves, and be in a location that
            > assistance could be provided should any emergency occur.
            > Requirements for drivers would limit the scouts from driving as a
            > group, and the two-deep adult leadership would have to be addressed
            > in the event that transportation would be required.
            >
            > Don Wilson
            >
            > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
            > From: "Robert Wilson" <fishnscout@...>
            > Date sent: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:36:26 -0500
            > Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Patrol Camping
            > Send reply to: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > > How does this work with Tour Permits and the requirements for that?
            > >
            > > Thanks,
            > > Robert
            > >
            > >
            > > On Jan 17, 2008 5:20 PM, joedet <joedet@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > > In going over the YPT video we came upon the Patrol Camping comment.
            > > >
            > > > The question I have is.
            > > >
            > > > Does anyone know of a Scoutmaster that has approved this and how did
            > it
            > > > work
            > > > with only the Patrol Camping without adults?
            > > >
            > > > joedet
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
            > > > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
            > > >
            > > > Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/
            > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            >
            > -- Success is not the destination, it is the journey.
            >
            >
            >
            > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
            > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Don Wilson
            I guess I could say Way back when.... . There was a time when patrols were able to have a patrol camp without two deep leadership. We spend years training
            Message 5 of 24 , Jan 18, 2008
              I guess I could say "Way back when....". There was a time when
              patrols were able to have a "patrol camp" without two deep
              leadership. We spend years training Scouts, a patrol of 15-16-year
              old boys and rather than allow them to put that training to the test,
              they must have two leaders to camp overnight? If you were in that
              patrol, would you feel that the leaders trusted them? Our Scouts are
              not feeble minded, if they want to get together and camp they will do
              just that, but outside the parameters of Scouting. Could or would
              you forbid them to do that?

              Present standards state emphatically that every campout must have two
              deep leadership with one of the two being 21 years or older.
              However, patrols may have a hike or service project without that two
              deep leadership. This is possible only with approval from the
              Scoutmaster and when it does not interfere with troop activities.

              As a Scoutmaster in the 90's (1989 - 1998), my leaders and I had a
              separate campsite but close enough to take care of problems. In
              fact, the leaders formed a patrol, the Chow Hounds, and we did
              everything that a patrol should do, from menu to duty roster,
              assisting each in putting up tents and shelters, even our own wood
              lot. From the patrol name, one would guess that we ate well. One of
              our goals was to demonstrate that it required no more time or effort
              to eat well than not. Mystery meat or foil packs were not acceptable
              in the leaders camp. One memorable meal was Frogmore Stew and
              Cherries Jubilee (we did have to forgo the flaming brandy). I was
              cook and served 8 leaders (Chow Hounds and guests) Fettichini
              Alfredo, candied carrots, steamed broccoli, with garlic bread sticks
              along with a Cherry-Pineapple Cobbler. I have a Dutch oven recipe
              for Orange Glazed Breakfast Buns that will make you the hero of your
              district (or even council) if anyone is interested. There were times
              when there were leftovers, but always a line of boys (we called them
              "camp dogs") insured that we did not have to waste food.

              After my first long-term camp another standard was established. I
              learned that some Scouts took more snacks than clothing summer camp,
              resulting in boys not being hungry for meals in the dinning hall
              because they had just eaten half-dozen candy bars and one or two soft
              drinks and then bouncing off the walls until the wee hours. That plus
              black animals with a white strip resulted to a "no personal snacks"
              policy. If it was not on the patrol menu, it would not be in the
              campsite. Scouts could eat leftovers from a previous meal, but could
              not break into the stores for the next meal. Anything purchased at
              the Trading Post at summer camp had to be eaten before Taps. The
              rule included the leaders patrol. After a year or so, it became the
              norm and little had to be said.

              I digress. Back to the original question, if the Scouts learn that
              they are not trusted, then why should they participate?

              Don Wilson


              -- Success is not the destination, it is the journey.
            • Charles Seltenright
              Your missing the point of patrol camping and the reasons behind it if you make too much of it.It doesent require 2 deep if a group of kids go camping as long
              Message 6 of 24 , Jan 19, 2008
                Your missing the point of patrol camping and the
                reasons behind it if you make too much of it.It
                doesent require 2 deep if a group of kids go camping
                as long as the Scoutmaster approves it.The idea is
                they can prove themselves if you can trust them.You
                wouldnt send a bunch of trouble makers out camping on
                there own as a SM would you??If a patrol has proven
                themselves to be capable there is nothing wrong with
                it.Why make it more complicated than it really is??I
                have allowed it many times and never was disappointed
                by the results.It really comes down to the SM's
                judgement if its allowed and whether they can do it
                under the scouting framework.Do you trust those that
                want to go camping??Are they capable of handling it
                and responsible enough??Those are the only questions
                you need to ask yourself and your scouts.
                Charles Seltenright
                Crew 308 Advisor
                Troop 337 ASM



                --- Robert Wilson <fishnscout@...> wrote:

                > Thanks for your response Don. I'm curious about this
                > because the tour permit
                > says ya have to have two leaders on campouts. The
                > way I'd do patrol camping
                > is have two deep leadership and have the adults camp
                > in their own patrol a
                > short distance away, but close enough to help with
                > safety issues.
                >
                > Robert
                >
                >
                > On Jan 18, 2008 5:37 PM, Don Wilson
                > <don-wilson@...> wrote:
                >
                > > I cannot see a case where a tour permit would be
                > required. The idea
                > > of Patrol Camping would be for the patrol to
                > either travel by foot or
                > > be dropped of by a parent -- the camp out should
                > not be that far away
                > > from the area that the troop serves, and be in a
                > location that
                > > assistance could be provided should any emergency
                > occur.
                > > Requirements for drivers would limit the scouts
                > from driving as a
                > > group, and the two-deep adult leadership would
                > have to be addressed
                > > in the event that transportation would be
                > required.
                > >
                > > Don Wilson
                > >
                > > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                > > From: "Robert Wilson" <fishnscout@...>
                > > Date sent: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:36:26 -0500
                > > Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Patrol Camping
                > > Send reply to: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                > >
                > > > How does this work with Tour Permits and the
                > requirements for that?
                > > >
                > > > Thanks,
                > > > Robert
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > On Jan 17, 2008 5:20 PM, joedet
                > <joedet@...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > > In going over the YPT video we came upon the
                > Patrol Camping comment.
                > > > >
                > > > > The question I have is.
                > > > >
                > > > > Does anyone know of a Scoutmaster that has
                > approved this and how did
                > > it
                > > > > work
                > > > > with only the Patrol Camping without adults?
                > > > >
                > > > > joedet
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                > removed]
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > For subscription and delevery options send a
                > message to:
                > > > > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                > > > >
                > > > > Scouting The Net -
                > http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/
                > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message
                > have been removed]
                > > > >
                > >
                > > -- Success is not the destination, it is the
                > journey.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > For subscription and delevery options send a
                > message to:
                > > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                > >
                > > Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                > removed]
                >
                >



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              • Alpvalsys@aol.com
                In a message dated 1/18/2008 5:51:13 PM EST, Trish wrote: there should be two-deep leadership on hand. This is for everyone s safety and protection Back when
                Message 7 of 24 , Jan 19, 2008
                  In a message dated 1/18/2008 5:51:13 PM EST, Trish wrote:

                  there should be two-deep leadership on hand. This is for everyone's safety
                  and protection >

                  Back when I was a Scout, shortly after the disappearance of the dinosaurs, we
                  didn't camp overnight as a patrol, but we did go afield for a day with no
                  adults. Used all kinds of woods tools, without and axe yard, to cut down (green)
                  trees. Ahhh! The days before personal injury lawyers. ;-)

                  Ralph V. Balfoort, UC
                  I used to be a beaver (NE III-135)
                  In the Beaver Patrol as a Scout
                  And still Ktemaque (Beaver) Chapter,
                  Kittan Lodge #364, OA



                  **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
                  http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • NeilLup@aol.com
                  ... Sadly, in today s Scouting, the question is not whether kids can handle it. (They can.) The problem is that if, God forbid, something should
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jan 19, 2008
                    In a message dated 1/18/08 11:59:14 PM, deutche01@... writes:


                    >
                    > Sorry, but you missed the entire point of Patrol
                    > camping. The idea is for them to get AWAY from all the
                    > adults and do their own thing. Let 'em go, they can
                    > handle it!
                    > Yours in Scouting and Service,
                    > Doc Marshall
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    Sadly, in today's Scouting, the question is not whether kids can handle
                    it. (They can.)

                    The problem is that if, God forbid, something should happen, the legal
                    position of the boys, the unit's adults and the BSA could be exceedingly
                    difficult. What has changed since the earlier days of Scouting is societal
                    expectations, standard of care and supervision expected by parents, etc. plus the
                    exceedingly high level of financial burden caused by settlements, judgements,
                    etc.

                    Having said that, patrol activities are permitted by the guide to safe
                    scouting. What is never permitted is to have an activity with one and only one
                    adult.

                    Best wishes,

                    Neil Lupton


                    **************
                    Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in
                    shape.
                    http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Michael Homrighaus
                    If only it were simply up to the leaders and the boys. Back in the dark ages, this was an acceptable practice; not today. The leader campsite nearby works, but
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jan 19, 2008
                      If only it were simply up to the leaders and the boys. Back in the dark
                      ages, this was an acceptable practice; not today. The leader campsite
                      nearby works, but under no circumstances can we permit a patrol of
                      Scouts to camp without 2-deep leadership. It has nothing to do with
                      trusting the Scouts; it is solely about liability of the leadership.
                      With a many nut cases as there are out there, and as many bad things as
                      can happen, there is no choice. Independent patrol camping died with
                      the dinosaurs. Sorry.

                      Mike Homrighaus
                      AA, Venturing Crew 88
                      Cortland, NY
                      Baden-Powell Council
                    • Kevin Pate
                      ... As to the above, I ll agree to disagree, pet Dino, wave to Fred and Wilma, and amble on along the trail 8^) Kevin in Norman, America
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jan 19, 2008
                        > ... there is no choice. Independent patrol camping
                        > died with the dinosaurs. Sorry.

                        As to the above, I'll agree to disagree, pet Dino,
                        wave to Fred and Wilma, and amble on along the trail
                        8^)

                        Kevin in Norman, America


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                      • Don Wilson
                        Now I am not from Missouri, but this time you gotta show me. Where in available literature have you found anything that indicated that a patrol may camp
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jan 19, 2008
                          Now I am not from Missouri, but this time you gotta show me. Where
                          in available literature have you found anything that indicated that a
                          patrol may camp without two deep ADULT leadership? A day hike or
                          special service project - yes -- but that is the extent of the
                          activities that a patrol may practice without required adult
                          leadership. Please, tell me I am wrong.

                          Don Wilson

                          -- Success is not the destination, it is the journey.
                        • Jamie Niss Dunn
                          Two-Deep Leadership Safe Scouting requires adequate adult leadership. For camps, trips, and outdoor activities, this means having at least two adult leaders,
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jan 19, 2008
                            Two-Deep Leadership

                            Safe Scouting requires adequate adult leadership. For camps, trips, and outdoor activities, this means having at least two adult leaders, one of whom is at least 21 years old. It is unacceptable to have a camp, trip, or outdoor activity with only one adult present. If only one adult is able to attend, the trip must be cancelled. Ideally, at least three adults will accompany the troop on Scouting on trips. ***(Note that for properly trained Boy Scout patrols, it is acceptable to have outdoor patrol activities with no adults present. Such activities do require Scoutmaster approval.)***



                            http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=promoi&c=http://www.scouting.org/healthandsafety/index.html

                            Emphasis added.

                            YiS,
                            Jamie Niss Dunn
                            Pack Trainer, Pack 512
                            Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
                            Cub Scout Training Coordinator
                            Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner





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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Jamie Niss Dunn
                            Patrol activities—A Boy Scout patrol or Varsity Scout squad may hike or camp with other patrols or squads in the unit or, with the permission of their
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jan 19, 2008
                              "Patrol activities—A Boy Scout patrol or Varsity Scout squad may hike or camp with other patrols or squads in the unit or, with the permission of their Scoutmaster and parents or guardians, may hike or camp on their own."
                              http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-954/index.html


                              Jamie Niss Dunn
                              Pack Trainer, Pack 512
                              Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
                              Cub Scout Training Coordinator
                              Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner






                              ________________________________________________________________________
                              More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Robert Wilson
                              ... I would hope that older Scouts have the skills to take care of themselves and I could see where they could feel that the adults don t trust them. I would
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jan 19, 2008
                                On Jan 19, 2008 1:06 AM, Don Wilson <don-wilson@...> wrote:

                                > I guess I could say "Way back when....". There was a time when
                                > patrols were able to have a "patrol camp" without two deep
                                > leadership. We spend years training Scouts, a patrol of 15-16-year
                                > old boys and rather than allow them to put that training to the test,
                                > they must have two leaders to camp overnight? If you were in that
                                > patrol, would you feel that the leaders trusted them? Our Scouts are
                                > not feeble minded, if they want to get together and camp they will do
                                > just that, but outside the parameters of Scouting. Could or would
                                > you forbid them to do that?


                                I would hope that older Scouts have the skills to take care of themselves
                                and I could see where they could feel that the adults don't trust them. I
                                would also hope that they would understand policies and rules.

                                What do we teach new Scoutmasters about how patrol camping works? If the
                                policy is that two deep leadership is required, that is what we should
                                teach. If folks deviate from that, it shouldn't be based on what they are
                                taught.

                                Robert


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Don Wilson
                                I am glad to be proven wrong -- even when the Scoutmaster Handbook states that Every campout and short term camp must have a qualified adult leader, at least
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jan 19, 2008
                                  I am glad to be proven wrong -- even when the Scoutmaster Handbook
                                  states that "Every campout and short term camp must have a qualified
                                  adult leader, at least 21 years of age, in charge and at least one
                                  more responsible adult participating.....Scouts may not depart for a
                                  camping trip unless a two-adult minimum of leadership is assured."
                                  And further: "Two registered adult leaders or one registered adult
                                  leader and a parent or guardian of a participant, one of whom must be
                                  at least 21 years of age, are required on all trips and outings.
                                  .....This requirement also applies to the activities of provisional
                                  troops and of the Order of the Arrow."

                                  Thanks, Jamie.

                                  Don Wilson

                                  To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                  From: Jamie Niss Dunn <JNDunnMN@...>
                                  Date sent: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 17:25:28 -0500
                                  Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Patrol Camping/Charles
                                  Send reply to: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com

                                  > "Patrol activities-A Boy Scout patrol or Varsity Scout squad may hike or camp with other patrols or squads in the unit or, with the permission of their Scoutmaster and parents or guardians, may hike or camp on their own."
                                  > http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-954/index.html
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Jamie Niss Dunn
                                  > Pack Trainer, Pack 512
                                  > Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
                                  > Cub Scout Training Coordinator
                                  > Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner
                                • doc marshall
                                  Thanks, Jamie.My guys will cntinue to do Patrol activities (including campouts) with my permission and without any adults present. As to the weirdos, I d hate
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jan 19, 2008
                                    Thanks, Jamie.My guys will cntinue to do Patrol
                                    activities (including campouts) with my permission and
                                    without any adults present. As to the weirdos, I'd
                                    hate to tackle these guys if they got riled up. They
                                    are as well-trained in First Aid/CPR as I am, have
                                    some means of communication with the outside world,
                                    parents have signed waivers AND, they'd probably shoot
                                    me if I didn't let 'em go camping. Prepare for the
                                    worst (train the boys) then put some trust in them.
                                    They are, aftter all, young men.
                                    Yours in Scouting and Service,
                                    Doc MArshall
                                    --- Jamie Niss Dunn <JNDunnMN@...> wrote:

                                    > "Patrol activities—A Boy Scout patrol or Varsity
                                    > Scout squad may hike or camp with other patrols or
                                    > squads in the unit or, with the permission of their
                                    > Scoutmaster and parents or guardians, may hike or
                                    > camp on their own."
                                    >
                                    http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-954/index.html
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Jamie Niss Dunn
                                    > Pack Trainer, Pack 512
                                    > Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
                                    > Cub Scout Training Coordinator
                                    > Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    ________________________________________________________________________
                                    > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL
                                    > Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                    > removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • Charles Seltenright
                                    Ditto thanks Jamie!! You will find you gain stronger leaders and a better troop if you do allow patrols to camp.As young scouts they elect by popularity as
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jan 20, 2008
                                      Ditto thanks Jamie!!
                                      You will find you gain stronger leaders and a better
                                      troop if you do allow patrols to camp.As young scouts
                                      they elect by popularity as they gain age and
                                      experience they elect by leadership and
                                      experience.With patrol camping they learn this on
                                      there own and apply it in the troop without a single
                                      leader (adult)having anything to do with it.
                                      Trust is huge in patrol camping but if anyone has any
                                      doubts, whether leader or parent, it shouldnt be
                                      allowed.BP designed scouting to raise young boys into
                                      young men.It still works today as it did back then.

                                      Charles Seltenright
                                      Crew 308 Advisor
                                      Troop 337 ASM


                                      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                                    • corinnajones@hotmail.com
                                      You might want to consider that the wilderness area of a council camp could be safer than a state park, considering that we pretty much know who enters a Boy
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jan 20, 2008
                                        You might want to consider that the wilderness area of a council camp could
                                        be safer than a state park, considering that we pretty much know who enters
                                        a Boy Scout camp, but a public park is a different story. Also, at least in
                                        our council we don't need a tour permit for that, but I agree about getting
                                        a waiver signed by the parents showing that they're aware of what's being
                                        done and the potential risks - this is 2008 after all.
                                        Corinna
                                      • Robert Wilson
                                        I ve the #33009B version of the Scoutmaster Handbook and it states at the bottom of page 22, However, patrols may also set out on day hikes, service projects,
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jan 20, 2008
                                          I've the #33009B version of the Scoutmaster Handbook and it states at the
                                          bottom of page 22, "However, patrols may also set out on day hikes, service
                                          projects, and overnighters independent of the troop and free of adult
                                          leadership as long as they follow two rules:
                                          - The Scoutmaster approves the patrol activity.
                                          - The patrol activity does not interfere with any troop function"

                                          It goes on to explain about things being well planned and within their
                                          ability and stuff like that. The current handbook is version #33009C. I
                                          wonder if it has the same statements. I understand the value of giving folks
                                          the freedom to do things on their own, after all, we are moving them from
                                          dependence to independence. What I'm trying to get straight is what the BSA
                                          policy is now on the subject so that when I'm asked, I can tell them what
                                          the official policy is. It looks like the documentation contradicts itself.

                                          YIS,
                                          Robert



                                          On Jan 19, 2008 6:26 PM, Don Wilson <don-wilson@...> wrote:

                                          > I am glad to be proven wrong -- even when the Scoutmaster Handbook
                                          > states that "Every campout and short term camp must have a qualified
                                          > adult leader, at least 21 years of age, in charge and at least one
                                          > more responsible adult participating.....Scouts may not depart for a
                                          > camping trip unless a two-adult minimum of leadership is assured."
                                          > And further: "Two registered adult leaders or one registered adult
                                          > leader and a parent or guardian of a participant, one of whom must be
                                          > at least 21 years of age, are required on all trips and outings.
                                          > .....This requirement also applies to the activities of provisional
                                          > troops and of the Order of the Arrow."
                                          >
                                          > Thanks, Jamie.
                                          >
                                          > Don Wilson
                                          >
                                          > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                          > From: Jamie Niss Dunn <JNDunnMN@...>
                                          > Date sent: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 17:25:28 -0500
                                          > Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Patrol Camping/Charles
                                          > Send reply to: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                          >
                                          > > "Patrol activities-A Boy Scout patrol or Varsity Scout squad may hike or
                                          > camp with other patrols or squads in the unit or, with the permission of
                                          > their Scoutmaster and parents or guardians, may hike or camp on their own."
                                          > > http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-954/index.html
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > Jamie Niss Dunn
                                          > > Pack Trainer, Pack 512
                                          > > Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
                                          > > Cub Scout Training Coordinator
                                          > > Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                                          > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                                          >
                                          > Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Don Wilson
                                          The version I have is #33009A, where on page 3 states that: These are the minimum requirements for becoming a Scoutmaster or assistant Scoutmaster: Be at
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jan 20, 2008
                                            The version I have is #33009A, where on page 3 states that: "These
                                            are the minimum requirements for becoming a Scoutmaster or assistant
                                            Scoutmaster: Be at least 21 years of age. I will replace my copy on
                                            Monday.

                                            Yes, I am finding more and more contradictions which might depend on
                                            which version one is reading. The largest problem is Guide to Safe
                                            Scouting. It certainly would be nice if the right hand knew what the
                                            left hand is doing.

                                            Don Wilson

                                            -- Success is not the destination, it is the journey.
                                          • doc marshall
                                            And that, folks, is a classic introduction to BSA National! Yours in Scouting and Service, Doc Marshall
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Jan 20, 2008
                                              And that, folks, is a classic introduction to BSA
                                              National!
                                              Yours in Scouting and Service,
                                              Doc Marshall
                                              --- Don Wilson <don-wilson@...> wrote:

                                              > The version I have is #33009A, where on page 3
                                              > states that: "These
                                              > are the minimum requirements for becoming a
                                              > Scoutmaster or assistant
                                              > Scoutmaster: Be at least 21 years of age. I will
                                              > replace my copy on
                                              > Monday.
                                              >
                                              > Yes, I am finding more and more contradictions which
                                              > might depend on
                                              > which version one is reading. The largest problem
                                              > is Guide to Safe
                                              > Scouting. It certainly would be nice if the right
                                              > hand knew what the
                                              > left hand is doing.
                                              >
                                              > Don Wilson
                                              >
                                              > -- Success is not the destination, it is the
                                              > journey.
                                              >
                                              >
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