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Re: [Scouter_T] Patrol Camping

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  • Robert Wilson
    How does this work with Tour Permits and the requirements for that? Thanks, Robert ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    Message 1 of 24 , Jan 18, 2008
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      How does this work with Tour Permits and the requirements for that?

      Thanks,
      Robert


      On Jan 17, 2008 5:20 PM, joedet <joedet@...> wrote:

      > In going over the YPT video we came upon the Patrol Camping comment.
      >
      > The question I have is.
      >
      > Does anyone know of a Scoutmaster that has approved this and how did it
      > work
      > with only the Patrol Camping without adults?
      >
      > joedet
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
      > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Don Wilson
      I cannot see a case where a tour permit would be required. The idea of Patrol Camping would be for the patrol to either travel by foot or be dropped of by a
      Message 2 of 24 , Jan 18, 2008
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        I cannot see a case where a tour permit would be required. The idea
        of Patrol Camping would be for the patrol to either travel by foot or
        be dropped of by a parent -- the camp out should not be that far away
        from the area that the troop serves, and be in a location that
        assistance could be provided should any emergency occur.
        Requirements for drivers would limit the scouts from driving as a
        group, and the two-deep adult leadership would have to be addressed
        in the event that transportation would be required.

        Don Wilson

        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
        From: "Robert Wilson" <fishnscout@...>
        Date sent: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:36:26 -0500
        Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Patrol Camping
        Send reply to: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com

        > How does this work with Tour Permits and the requirements for that?
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Robert
        >
        >
        > On Jan 17, 2008 5:20 PM, joedet <joedet@...> wrote:
        >
        > > In going over the YPT video we came upon the Patrol Camping comment.
        > >
        > > The question I have is.
        > >
        > > Does anyone know of a Scoutmaster that has approved this and how did it
        > > work
        > > with only the Patrol Camping without adults?
        > >
        > > joedet
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
        > > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
        > >
        > > Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >

        -- Success is not the destination, it is the journey.
      • Lady T
        I can see where tour permit is needed. Here in Texas, it doesn t take much to get pretty far from your normal serving area. When my son was in a relatively
        Message 3 of 24 , Jan 18, 2008
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          I can see where tour permit is needed. Here in Texas, it doesn't take much to get pretty far from your normal serving area. When my son was in a relatively new patrol, we took their patrol camping to a State park about an hour and a half away. It was a great place, but we did get a tour permit. And we had more than two deep leadership. Regardless of where the boys camp, even if it's in someone's backyard, there should be two-deep leadership on hand. This is for everyone's safety and protection, not just the boys.

          Make it fun and rewarding, have a great time, but follow BSA policy if you are going as a patrol.

          Trish


          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Don Wilson <don-wilson@...>
          To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 4:37:00 PM
          Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Patrol Camping

          I cannot see a case where a tour permit would be required. The idea
          of Patrol Camping would be for the patrol to either travel by foot or
          be dropped of by a parent -- the camp out should not be that far away
          from the area that the troop serves, and be in a location that
          assistance could be provided should any emergency occur.
          Requirements for drivers would limit the scouts from driving as a
          group, and the two-deep adult leadership would have to be addressed
          in the event that transportation would be required.

          Don Wilson

          To: scouter_t@yahoogrou ps.com
          From: "Robert Wilson" <fishnscout@gmail. com>
          Date sent: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:36:26 -0500
          Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Patrol Camping
          Send reply to: scouter_t@yahoogrou ps.com

          > How does this work with Tour Permits and the requirements for that?
          >
          > Thanks,
          > Robert
          >
          >
          > On Jan 17, 2008 5:20 PM, joedet <joedet@hotmail. com> wrote:
          >
          > > In going over the YPT video we came upon the Patrol Camping comment.
          > >
          > > The question I have is.
          > >
          > > Does anyone know of a Scoutmaster that has approved this and how did it
          > > work
          > > with only the Patrol Camping without adults?
          > >
          > > joedet
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
          > > scouter_t-help@ yahoogroups. com
          > >
          > > Scouting The Net - http://www.Scouting TheNet.com/
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >

          -- Success is not the destination, it is the journey.





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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • doc marshall
          Sorry, but you missed the entire point of Patrol camping. The idea is for them to get AWAY from all the adults and do their own thing. Let em go, they can
          Message 4 of 24 , Jan 18, 2008
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            Sorry, but you missed the entire point of Patrol
            camping. The idea is for them to get AWAY from all the
            adults and do their own thing. Let 'em go, they can
            handle it!
            Yours in Scouting and Service,
            Doc Marshall
            --- Lady T <eagleladyt@...> wrote:

            > I can see where tour permit is needed. Here in
            > Texas, it doesn't take much to get pretty far from
            > your normal serving area. When my son was in a
            > relatively new patrol, we took their patrol camping
            > to a State park about an hour and a half away. It
            > was a great place, but we did get a tour permit.
            > And we had more than two deep leadership.
            > Regardless of where the boys camp, even if it's in
            > someone's backyard, there should be two-deep
            > leadership on hand. This is for everyone's safety
            > and protection, not just the boys.
            >
            > Make it fun and rewarding, have a great time, but
            > follow BSA policy if you are going as a patrol.
            >
            > Trish
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message ----
            > From: Don Wilson <don-wilson@...>
            > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Friday, January 18, 2008 4:37:00 PM
            > Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Patrol Camping
            >
            > I cannot see a case where a tour permit would be
            > required. The idea
            > of Patrol Camping would be for the patrol to either
            > travel by foot or
            > be dropped of by a parent -- the camp out should not
            > be that far away
            > from the area that the troop serves, and be in a
            > location that
            > assistance could be provided should any emergency
            > occur.
            > Requirements for drivers would limit the scouts from
            > driving as a
            > group, and the two-deep adult leadership would have
            > to be addressed
            > in the event that transportation would be required.
            >
            > Don Wilson
            >
            > To: scouter_t@yahoogrou ps.com
            > From: "Robert Wilson" <fishnscout@gmail. com>
            > Date sent: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:36:26 -0500
            > Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Patrol Camping
            > Send reply to: scouter_t@yahoogrou ps.com
            >
            > > How does this work with Tour Permits and the
            > requirements for that?
            > >
            > > Thanks,
            > > Robert
            > >
            > >
            > > On Jan 17, 2008 5:20 PM, joedet <joedet@hotmail.
            > com> wrote:
            > >
            > > > In going over the YPT video we came upon the
            > Patrol Camping comment.
            > > >
            > > > The question I have is.
            > > >
            > > > Does anyone know of a Scoutmaster that has
            > approved this and how did it
            > > > work
            > > > with only the Patrol Camping without adults?
            > > >
            > > > joedet
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
            > removed]
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > For subscription and delevery options send a
            > message to:
            > > > scouter_t-help@ yahoogroups. com
            > > >
            > > > Scouting The Net - http://www.Scouting
            > TheNet.com/
            > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
            > removed]
            > > >
            >
            > -- Success is not the destination, it is the
            > journey.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            ____________________________________________________________________________________
            > Looking for last minute shopping deals?
            > Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
            >
            http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
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            > [Non-text portions of this message have been
            > removed]
            >
            >
          • Robert Wilson
            Thanks for your response Don. I m curious about this because the tour permit says ya have to have two leaders on campouts. The way I d do patrol camping is
            Message 5 of 24 , Jan 18, 2008
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              Thanks for your response Don. I'm curious about this because the tour permit
              says ya have to have two leaders on campouts. The way I'd do patrol camping
              is have two deep leadership and have the adults camp in their own patrol a
              short distance away, but close enough to help with safety issues.

              Robert


              On Jan 18, 2008 5:37 PM, Don Wilson <don-wilson@...> wrote:

              > I cannot see a case where a tour permit would be required. The idea
              > of Patrol Camping would be for the patrol to either travel by foot or
              > be dropped of by a parent -- the camp out should not be that far away
              > from the area that the troop serves, and be in a location that
              > assistance could be provided should any emergency occur.
              > Requirements for drivers would limit the scouts from driving as a
              > group, and the two-deep adult leadership would have to be addressed
              > in the event that transportation would be required.
              >
              > Don Wilson
              >
              > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
              > From: "Robert Wilson" <fishnscout@...>
              > Date sent: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:36:26 -0500
              > Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Patrol Camping
              > Send reply to: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > > How does this work with Tour Permits and the requirements for that?
              > >
              > > Thanks,
              > > Robert
              > >
              > >
              > > On Jan 17, 2008 5:20 PM, joedet <joedet@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > > In going over the YPT video we came upon the Patrol Camping comment.
              > > >
              > > > The question I have is.
              > > >
              > > > Does anyone know of a Scoutmaster that has approved this and how did
              > it
              > > > work
              > > > with only the Patrol Camping without adults?
              > > >
              > > > joedet
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
              > > > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
              > > >
              > > > Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/
              > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > >
              >
              > -- Success is not the destination, it is the journey.
              >
              >
              >
              > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
              > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Don Wilson
              I guess I could say Way back when.... . There was a time when patrols were able to have a patrol camp without two deep leadership. We spend years training
              Message 6 of 24 , Jan 18, 2008
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                I guess I could say "Way back when....". There was a time when
                patrols were able to have a "patrol camp" without two deep
                leadership. We spend years training Scouts, a patrol of 15-16-year
                old boys and rather than allow them to put that training to the test,
                they must have two leaders to camp overnight? If you were in that
                patrol, would you feel that the leaders trusted them? Our Scouts are
                not feeble minded, if they want to get together and camp they will do
                just that, but outside the parameters of Scouting. Could or would
                you forbid them to do that?

                Present standards state emphatically that every campout must have two
                deep leadership with one of the two being 21 years or older.
                However, patrols may have a hike or service project without that two
                deep leadership. This is possible only with approval from the
                Scoutmaster and when it does not interfere with troop activities.

                As a Scoutmaster in the 90's (1989 - 1998), my leaders and I had a
                separate campsite but close enough to take care of problems. In
                fact, the leaders formed a patrol, the Chow Hounds, and we did
                everything that a patrol should do, from menu to duty roster,
                assisting each in putting up tents and shelters, even our own wood
                lot. From the patrol name, one would guess that we ate well. One of
                our goals was to demonstrate that it required no more time or effort
                to eat well than not. Mystery meat or foil packs were not acceptable
                in the leaders camp. One memorable meal was Frogmore Stew and
                Cherries Jubilee (we did have to forgo the flaming brandy). I was
                cook and served 8 leaders (Chow Hounds and guests) Fettichini
                Alfredo, candied carrots, steamed broccoli, with garlic bread sticks
                along with a Cherry-Pineapple Cobbler. I have a Dutch oven recipe
                for Orange Glazed Breakfast Buns that will make you the hero of your
                district (or even council) if anyone is interested. There were times
                when there were leftovers, but always a line of boys (we called them
                "camp dogs") insured that we did not have to waste food.

                After my first long-term camp another standard was established. I
                learned that some Scouts took more snacks than clothing summer camp,
                resulting in boys not being hungry for meals in the dinning hall
                because they had just eaten half-dozen candy bars and one or two soft
                drinks and then bouncing off the walls until the wee hours. That plus
                black animals with a white strip resulted to a "no personal snacks"
                policy. If it was not on the patrol menu, it would not be in the
                campsite. Scouts could eat leftovers from a previous meal, but could
                not break into the stores for the next meal. Anything purchased at
                the Trading Post at summer camp had to be eaten before Taps. The
                rule included the leaders patrol. After a year or so, it became the
                norm and little had to be said.

                I digress. Back to the original question, if the Scouts learn that
                they are not trusted, then why should they participate?

                Don Wilson


                -- Success is not the destination, it is the journey.
              • Charles Seltenright
                Your missing the point of patrol camping and the reasons behind it if you make too much of it.It doesent require 2 deep if a group of kids go camping as long
                Message 7 of 24 , Jan 19, 2008
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                  Your missing the point of patrol camping and the
                  reasons behind it if you make too much of it.It
                  doesent require 2 deep if a group of kids go camping
                  as long as the Scoutmaster approves it.The idea is
                  they can prove themselves if you can trust them.You
                  wouldnt send a bunch of trouble makers out camping on
                  there own as a SM would you??If a patrol has proven
                  themselves to be capable there is nothing wrong with
                  it.Why make it more complicated than it really is??I
                  have allowed it many times and never was disappointed
                  by the results.It really comes down to the SM's
                  judgement if its allowed and whether they can do it
                  under the scouting framework.Do you trust those that
                  want to go camping??Are they capable of handling it
                  and responsible enough??Those are the only questions
                  you need to ask yourself and your scouts.
                  Charles Seltenright
                  Crew 308 Advisor
                  Troop 337 ASM



                  --- Robert Wilson <fishnscout@...> wrote:

                  > Thanks for your response Don. I'm curious about this
                  > because the tour permit
                  > says ya have to have two leaders on campouts. The
                  > way I'd do patrol camping
                  > is have two deep leadership and have the adults camp
                  > in their own patrol a
                  > short distance away, but close enough to help with
                  > safety issues.
                  >
                  > Robert
                  >
                  >
                  > On Jan 18, 2008 5:37 PM, Don Wilson
                  > <don-wilson@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > I cannot see a case where a tour permit would be
                  > required. The idea
                  > > of Patrol Camping would be for the patrol to
                  > either travel by foot or
                  > > be dropped of by a parent -- the camp out should
                  > not be that far away
                  > > from the area that the troop serves, and be in a
                  > location that
                  > > assistance could be provided should any emergency
                  > occur.
                  > > Requirements for drivers would limit the scouts
                  > from driving as a
                  > > group, and the two-deep adult leadership would
                  > have to be addressed
                  > > in the event that transportation would be
                  > required.
                  > >
                  > > Don Wilson
                  > >
                  > > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                  > > From: "Robert Wilson" <fishnscout@...>
                  > > Date sent: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:36:26 -0500
                  > > Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Patrol Camping
                  > > Send reply to: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > > > How does this work with Tour Permits and the
                  > requirements for that?
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks,
                  > > > Robert
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > On Jan 17, 2008 5:20 PM, joedet
                  > <joedet@...> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > > In going over the YPT video we came upon the
                  > Patrol Camping comment.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > The question I have is.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Does anyone know of a Scoutmaster that has
                  > approved this and how did
                  > > it
                  > > > > work
                  > > > > with only the Patrol Camping without adults?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > joedet
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > removed]
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > For subscription and delevery options send a
                  > message to:
                  > > > > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Scouting The Net -
                  > http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/
                  > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message
                  > have been removed]
                  > > > >
                  > >
                  > > -- Success is not the destination, it is the
                  > journey.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > For subscription and delevery options send a
                  > message to:
                  > > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > > Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > removed]
                  >
                  >



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                • Alpvalsys@aol.com
                  In a message dated 1/18/2008 5:51:13 PM EST, Trish wrote: there should be two-deep leadership on hand. This is for everyone s safety and protection Back when
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jan 19, 2008
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                    In a message dated 1/18/2008 5:51:13 PM EST, Trish wrote:

                    there should be two-deep leadership on hand. This is for everyone's safety
                    and protection >

                    Back when I was a Scout, shortly after the disappearance of the dinosaurs, we
                    didn't camp overnight as a patrol, but we did go afield for a day with no
                    adults. Used all kinds of woods tools, without and axe yard, to cut down (green)
                    trees. Ahhh! The days before personal injury lawyers. ;-)

                    Ralph V. Balfoort, UC
                    I used to be a beaver (NE III-135)
                    In the Beaver Patrol as a Scout
                    And still Ktemaque (Beaver) Chapter,
                    Kittan Lodge #364, OA



                    **************Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in shape.
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                  • NeilLup@aol.com
                    ... Sadly, in today s Scouting, the question is not whether kids can handle it. (They can.) The problem is that if, God forbid, something should
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jan 19, 2008
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                      In a message dated 1/18/08 11:59:14 PM, deutche01@... writes:


                      >
                      > Sorry, but you missed the entire point of Patrol
                      > camping. The idea is for them to get AWAY from all the
                      > adults and do their own thing. Let 'em go, they can
                      > handle it!
                      > Yours in Scouting and Service,
                      > Doc Marshall
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      Sadly, in today's Scouting, the question is not whether kids can handle
                      it. (They can.)

                      The problem is that if, God forbid, something should happen, the legal
                      position of the boys, the unit's adults and the BSA could be exceedingly
                      difficult. What has changed since the earlier days of Scouting is societal
                      expectations, standard of care and supervision expected by parents, etc. plus the
                      exceedingly high level of financial burden caused by settlements, judgements,
                      etc.

                      Having said that, patrol activities are permitted by the guide to safe
                      scouting. What is never permitted is to have an activity with one and only one
                      adult.

                      Best wishes,

                      Neil Lupton


                      **************
                      Start the year off right. Easy ways to stay in
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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Michael Homrighaus
                      If only it were simply up to the leaders and the boys. Back in the dark ages, this was an acceptable practice; not today. The leader campsite nearby works, but
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jan 19, 2008
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                        If only it were simply up to the leaders and the boys. Back in the dark
                        ages, this was an acceptable practice; not today. The leader campsite
                        nearby works, but under no circumstances can we permit a patrol of
                        Scouts to camp without 2-deep leadership. It has nothing to do with
                        trusting the Scouts; it is solely about liability of the leadership.
                        With a many nut cases as there are out there, and as many bad things as
                        can happen, there is no choice. Independent patrol camping died with
                        the dinosaurs. Sorry.

                        Mike Homrighaus
                        AA, Venturing Crew 88
                        Cortland, NY
                        Baden-Powell Council
                      • Kevin Pate
                        ... As to the above, I ll agree to disagree, pet Dino, wave to Fred and Wilma, and amble on along the trail 8^) Kevin in Norman, America
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jan 19, 2008
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                          > ... there is no choice. Independent patrol camping
                          > died with the dinosaurs. Sorry.

                          As to the above, I'll agree to disagree, pet Dino,
                          wave to Fred and Wilma, and amble on along the trail
                          8^)

                          Kevin in Norman, America


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                        • Don Wilson
                          Now I am not from Missouri, but this time you gotta show me. Where in available literature have you found anything that indicated that a patrol may camp
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jan 19, 2008
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                            Now I am not from Missouri, but this time you gotta show me. Where
                            in available literature have you found anything that indicated that a
                            patrol may camp without two deep ADULT leadership? A day hike or
                            special service project - yes -- but that is the extent of the
                            activities that a patrol may practice without required adult
                            leadership. Please, tell me I am wrong.

                            Don Wilson

                            -- Success is not the destination, it is the journey.
                          • Jamie Niss Dunn
                            Two-Deep Leadership Safe Scouting requires adequate adult leadership. For camps, trips, and outdoor activities, this means having at least two adult leaders,
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jan 19, 2008
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                              Two-Deep Leadership

                              Safe Scouting requires adequate adult leadership. For camps, trips, and outdoor activities, this means having at least two adult leaders, one of whom is at least 21 years old. It is unacceptable to have a camp, trip, or outdoor activity with only one adult present. If only one adult is able to attend, the trip must be cancelled. Ideally, at least three adults will accompany the troop on Scouting on trips. ***(Note that for properly trained Boy Scout patrols, it is acceptable to have outdoor patrol activities with no adults present. Such activities do require Scoutmaster approval.)***



                              http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=promoi&c=http://www.scouting.org/healthandsafety/index.html

                              Emphasis added.

                              YiS,
                              Jamie Niss Dunn
                              Pack Trainer, Pack 512
                              Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
                              Cub Scout Training Coordinator
                              Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner





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                            • Jamie Niss Dunn
                              Patrol activities—A Boy Scout patrol or Varsity Scout squad may hike or camp with other patrols or squads in the unit or, with the permission of their
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jan 19, 2008
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                                "Patrol activities—A Boy Scout patrol or Varsity Scout squad may hike or camp with other patrols or squads in the unit or, with the permission of their Scoutmaster and parents or guardians, may hike or camp on their own."
                                http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-954/index.html


                                Jamie Niss Dunn
                                Pack Trainer, Pack 512
                                Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
                                Cub Scout Training Coordinator
                                Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner






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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Robert Wilson
                                ... I would hope that older Scouts have the skills to take care of themselves and I could see where they could feel that the adults don t trust them. I would
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jan 19, 2008
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                                  On Jan 19, 2008 1:06 AM, Don Wilson <don-wilson@...> wrote:

                                  > I guess I could say "Way back when....". There was a time when
                                  > patrols were able to have a "patrol camp" without two deep
                                  > leadership. We spend years training Scouts, a patrol of 15-16-year
                                  > old boys and rather than allow them to put that training to the test,
                                  > they must have two leaders to camp overnight? If you were in that
                                  > patrol, would you feel that the leaders trusted them? Our Scouts are
                                  > not feeble minded, if they want to get together and camp they will do
                                  > just that, but outside the parameters of Scouting. Could or would
                                  > you forbid them to do that?


                                  I would hope that older Scouts have the skills to take care of themselves
                                  and I could see where they could feel that the adults don't trust them. I
                                  would also hope that they would understand policies and rules.

                                  What do we teach new Scoutmasters about how patrol camping works? If the
                                  policy is that two deep leadership is required, that is what we should
                                  teach. If folks deviate from that, it shouldn't be based on what they are
                                  taught.

                                  Robert


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Don Wilson
                                  I am glad to be proven wrong -- even when the Scoutmaster Handbook states that Every campout and short term camp must have a qualified adult leader, at least
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jan 19, 2008
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                                    I am glad to be proven wrong -- even when the Scoutmaster Handbook
                                    states that "Every campout and short term camp must have a qualified
                                    adult leader, at least 21 years of age, in charge and at least one
                                    more responsible adult participating.....Scouts may not depart for a
                                    camping trip unless a two-adult minimum of leadership is assured."
                                    And further: "Two registered adult leaders or one registered adult
                                    leader and a parent or guardian of a participant, one of whom must be
                                    at least 21 years of age, are required on all trips and outings.
                                    .....This requirement also applies to the activities of provisional
                                    troops and of the Order of the Arrow."

                                    Thanks, Jamie.

                                    Don Wilson

                                    To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                    From: Jamie Niss Dunn <JNDunnMN@...>
                                    Date sent: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 17:25:28 -0500
                                    Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Patrol Camping/Charles
                                    Send reply to: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com

                                    > "Patrol activities-A Boy Scout patrol or Varsity Scout squad may hike or camp with other patrols or squads in the unit or, with the permission of their Scoutmaster and parents or guardians, may hike or camp on their own."
                                    > http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-954/index.html
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Jamie Niss Dunn
                                    > Pack Trainer, Pack 512
                                    > Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
                                    > Cub Scout Training Coordinator
                                    > Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner
                                  • doc marshall
                                    Thanks, Jamie.My guys will cntinue to do Patrol activities (including campouts) with my permission and without any adults present. As to the weirdos, I d hate
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jan 19, 2008
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                                      Thanks, Jamie.My guys will cntinue to do Patrol
                                      activities (including campouts) with my permission and
                                      without any adults present. As to the weirdos, I'd
                                      hate to tackle these guys if they got riled up. They
                                      are as well-trained in First Aid/CPR as I am, have
                                      some means of communication with the outside world,
                                      parents have signed waivers AND, they'd probably shoot
                                      me if I didn't let 'em go camping. Prepare for the
                                      worst (train the boys) then put some trust in them.
                                      They are, aftter all, young men.
                                      Yours in Scouting and Service,
                                      Doc MArshall
                                      --- Jamie Niss Dunn <JNDunnMN@...> wrote:

                                      > "Patrol activities—A Boy Scout patrol or Varsity
                                      > Scout squad may hike or camp with other patrols or
                                      > squads in the unit or, with the permission of their
                                      > Scoutmaster and parents or guardians, may hike or
                                      > camp on their own."
                                      >
                                      http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-954/index.html
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Jamie Niss Dunn
                                      > Pack Trainer, Pack 512
                                      > Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
                                      > Cub Scout Training Coordinator
                                      > Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      ________________________________________________________________________
                                      > More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL
                                      > Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                      > removed]
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Charles Seltenright
                                      Ditto thanks Jamie!! You will find you gain stronger leaders and a better troop if you do allow patrols to camp.As young scouts they elect by popularity as
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jan 20, 2008
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                                        Ditto thanks Jamie!!
                                        You will find you gain stronger leaders and a better
                                        troop if you do allow patrols to camp.As young scouts
                                        they elect by popularity as they gain age and
                                        experience they elect by leadership and
                                        experience.With patrol camping they learn this on
                                        there own and apply it in the troop without a single
                                        leader (adult)having anything to do with it.
                                        Trust is huge in patrol camping but if anyone has any
                                        doubts, whether leader or parent, it shouldnt be
                                        allowed.BP designed scouting to raise young boys into
                                        young men.It still works today as it did back then.

                                        Charles Seltenright
                                        Crew 308 Advisor
                                        Troop 337 ASM


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                                      • corinnajones@hotmail.com
                                        You might want to consider that the wilderness area of a council camp could be safer than a state park, considering that we pretty much know who enters a Boy
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jan 20, 2008
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                                          You might want to consider that the wilderness area of a council camp could
                                          be safer than a state park, considering that we pretty much know who enters
                                          a Boy Scout camp, but a public park is a different story. Also, at least in
                                          our council we don't need a tour permit for that, but I agree about getting
                                          a waiver signed by the parents showing that they're aware of what's being
                                          done and the potential risks - this is 2008 after all.
                                          Corinna
                                        • Robert Wilson
                                          I ve the #33009B version of the Scoutmaster Handbook and it states at the bottom of page 22, However, patrols may also set out on day hikes, service projects,
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jan 20, 2008
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                                            I've the #33009B version of the Scoutmaster Handbook and it states at the
                                            bottom of page 22, "However, patrols may also set out on day hikes, service
                                            projects, and overnighters independent of the troop and free of adult
                                            leadership as long as they follow two rules:
                                            - The Scoutmaster approves the patrol activity.
                                            - The patrol activity does not interfere with any troop function"

                                            It goes on to explain about things being well planned and within their
                                            ability and stuff like that. The current handbook is version #33009C. I
                                            wonder if it has the same statements. I understand the value of giving folks
                                            the freedom to do things on their own, after all, we are moving them from
                                            dependence to independence. What I'm trying to get straight is what the BSA
                                            policy is now on the subject so that when I'm asked, I can tell them what
                                            the official policy is. It looks like the documentation contradicts itself.

                                            YIS,
                                            Robert



                                            On Jan 19, 2008 6:26 PM, Don Wilson <don-wilson@...> wrote:

                                            > I am glad to be proven wrong -- even when the Scoutmaster Handbook
                                            > states that "Every campout and short term camp must have a qualified
                                            > adult leader, at least 21 years of age, in charge and at least one
                                            > more responsible adult participating.....Scouts may not depart for a
                                            > camping trip unless a two-adult minimum of leadership is assured."
                                            > And further: "Two registered adult leaders or one registered adult
                                            > leader and a parent or guardian of a participant, one of whom must be
                                            > at least 21 years of age, are required on all trips and outings.
                                            > .....This requirement also applies to the activities of provisional
                                            > troops and of the Order of the Arrow."
                                            >
                                            > Thanks, Jamie.
                                            >
                                            > Don Wilson
                                            >
                                            > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                            > From: Jamie Niss Dunn <JNDunnMN@...>
                                            > Date sent: Sat, 19 Jan 2008 17:25:28 -0500
                                            > Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Patrol Camping/Charles
                                            > Send reply to: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                            >
                                            > > "Patrol activities-A Boy Scout patrol or Varsity Scout squad may hike or
                                            > camp with other patrols or squads in the unit or, with the permission of
                                            > their Scoutmaster and parents or guardians, may hike or camp on their own."
                                            > > http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/resources/18-954/index.html
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > Jamie Niss Dunn
                                            > > Pack Trainer, Pack 512
                                            > > Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
                                            > > Cub Scout Training Coordinator
                                            > > Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                                            > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                                            >
                                            > Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Don Wilson
                                            The version I have is #33009A, where on page 3 states that: These are the minimum requirements for becoming a Scoutmaster or assistant Scoutmaster: Be at
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Jan 20, 2008
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                                              The version I have is #33009A, where on page 3 states that: "These
                                              are the minimum requirements for becoming a Scoutmaster or assistant
                                              Scoutmaster: Be at least 21 years of age. I will replace my copy on
                                              Monday.

                                              Yes, I am finding more and more contradictions which might depend on
                                              which version one is reading. The largest problem is Guide to Safe
                                              Scouting. It certainly would be nice if the right hand knew what the
                                              left hand is doing.

                                              Don Wilson

                                              -- Success is not the destination, it is the journey.
                                            • doc marshall
                                              And that, folks, is a classic introduction to BSA National! Yours in Scouting and Service, Doc Marshall
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Jan 20, 2008
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                                                And that, folks, is a classic introduction to BSA
                                                National!
                                                Yours in Scouting and Service,
                                                Doc Marshall
                                                --- Don Wilson <don-wilson@...> wrote:

                                                > The version I have is #33009A, where on page 3
                                                > states that: "These
                                                > are the minimum requirements for becoming a
                                                > Scoutmaster or assistant
                                                > Scoutmaster: Be at least 21 years of age. I will
                                                > replace my copy on
                                                > Monday.
                                                >
                                                > Yes, I am finding more and more contradictions which
                                                > might depend on
                                                > which version one is reading. The largest problem
                                                > is Guide to Safe
                                                > Scouting. It certainly would be nice if the right
                                                > hand knew what the
                                                > left hand is doing.
                                                >
                                                > Don Wilson
                                                >
                                                > -- Success is not the destination, it is the
                                                > journey.
                                                >
                                                >
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