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Re: [Scouter_T] BSA Copyright

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  • NeilLup@aol.com
    ... Hello Mark, Happy New Year! I apologize in this New Year for hairsplitting but if we are going to talk with some precision about matters of intellectual
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 1, 2008
      In a message dated 1/1/08 11:39:56 AM, marklandry@... writes:


      > However, in requiring that permission be obtained to use any copyrighted
      > material, National is only doing what Congress requires to maintain a
      > copyright. If a name or mark becomes so familiar and used by the public at
      > will, it will fall into the public domain, and the copyright holder will
      > lose his rights.
      >

      Hello Mark,

      Happy New Year!

      I apologize in this New Year for hairsplitting but if we are going to talk
      with some precision about matters of intellectual property, it probably is
      wise to do it properly and to use terms properly and accurately. (With
      apologies to those who could care less.)

      I am not an attorney but am a layman who does work with IP in some depth.
      I know of at least 45types of intellectual property:

      1) Patents
      2) Trade Secrets
      3) Tradenames
      4) Trademarks
      5) Copyrights

      I don't believe that we are talking about the first three in discussions of
      the BSA. However, we do deal with Trademarks and Copyrights and in what
      you have written above, I fear you have confused the two.

      A trademark is a unique, non-descriptive coined name, picture, drawing, etc.
      given to some article of goods, unique service, etc. In the US, a
      trademark can be "registered" with the US Patent and Trademark office and this
      gives one certain rights and protection. A registered trademark is signified
      by a circle with an "R" in it. Or there can be an unregistered trademark
      with a TM designation. For a service mark, the designation is SM.

      It is a trademark which can be "lost" if it becomes so commonly used to
      describe an item or area of goods that it is deemed generic and no longer uniquely
      associated with a company. "Formica" lost trademark protection in this way
      and, I believe, aspirin did too. A trademark is an adjective and proper
      use of the trademark requires that it be an adjective modifying the type of
      goods. So if you listen carefully, you will hear Coca Cola BEVERAGE or
      Apple COMPUTER or Big Mac SANDWICH.

      You can find registered trademarks by going to the patent and trademark
      office website www.uspto.gov and searching.

      A trademark does not have any fixed expiration date. One can keep renewing
      it indefinitely as long as it is in use.

      Copyrights, on the other hand, protect creative works like books, music,
      art, etc. Copyrighted material is designated by a circle with a "C". One
      can register a copyright with the Patent and Trademark Office and one must do
      so if one plans to sue for protection, but that is not necessary for
      something to be copyrighted. Rather, whenever one puts pen to paper, something
      copyrighted is created (even, for example, this post.) It is the area of
      copyrights which have received so much attention in digital music and which
      have recently had the extensions of term. There is a fixed term for
      copyrights after which something becomes public domain but the rules are complicated
      and too elaborate to list here. Suffice it to say that for anything "modern"
      the period is many, many years.

      I would also note that the copyright protects the embodiment of creative
      work, but one cannot copyright ideas themselves. Ideas are in the public
      domain (unless they can be patented.)

      What you wrote is reasonably accurate for trademarks. It is not accurate
      for copyrights. As I understand matters, one does not lose copyright
      protection by failing to enforce and one can, after a period of time, start to
      enforce providing that one does so uniformly and not discriminitatively.

      The BSA has a lengthy write-up on its web site concerning its trademarks
      which are many. They demand licensing, as is their right, and is proper to
      protect their trademarks. If they fail to do so, they could lose the
      tradematks. Things such as the BSA trefoil, and the terms "Eagle Scout", "Cub
      Scout" and "Boy Scout" are trademarks.

      I looked and did not find anything about BSA owned copyrights on the BSA web
      site. Items like the content of the Boy Scout Handbook and the content of
      training manuals are BSA owned copyrights. I have heard that it is permitted
      to copy BSA materials for use in BSA training courses and operations. I
      have not found that in writing. I have also heard that local councils can
      give permission to copy BSA publications for BSA purposes. Again, I do not
      have that in writing and cannot state with confidence that it is true.

      Two other items:

      1) Some of the content of the original 21st Wood Badge was the copyrighted
      intellectual property of the Ken Blanchard organization. The BSA purchased
      a paid license to use this material and under the terms of this license, the
      BSA was allowed to make a certain number of copies and no more. This was
      part of the reason for the very strict rules on copying of the early 21st
      Century Wood Badge staff guides.

      2) There is a provision created by law and judicial decisions called "fair
      use" copying of copyright materials. This allows, under certain
      circumstances, legal and licit copying of copyright materials on a limited basis with
      no permission or royalty being required. This is not theft and is not a
      violation of A Scout is Trustworthy. It is your right. However, exactly
      what is fair use is complex and there is no bright shining line of demarcation.
      It is not as simple as "if it is for a non-profit organization, it is
      fair use." If one is planning on copying something under fair use, it is a
      good idea to read up a little and make one's own decision.

      I apologize to the listmembers for whom this is vastly too much information.
      However, I become bothered when I read "That is copyright, you can't
      copy it." It ain't necessarily so.

      Best wishes and have a wonderful New year.

      Neil Lupton


      **************************************
      See AOL's top rated recipes
      (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • eagle9252
      bsa can never trademark the fleur-de-lis but with the over lay of the eagle yes they can and are classb can make the fleur-de-lis scout shirts but not with
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 1, 2008
        bsa can never trademark the fleur-de-lis but with the over lay of the eagle
        yes they can and are

        classb can make the fleur-de-lis scout shirts but not with the eagle
        overlay


        On 1/1/08, Roy Fisher <rfisher003@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
        > scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
        > Of Mark Landry
        > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 10:39 AM
        > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com>
        > Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] BSA Copyright
        >
        > > Simply because National has a policy of requiring permission for use of
        > > the marks, it does not follow automatically that a charge will be
        > imposed.
        > > And I do not see national filing suit against a Cub Scout pack whose
        > pack
        > > shirt has a BSA logo.
        >
        > But it very well MIGHT go after the t-shirt shop that produced them.
        >
        > > And the fleur-de-lis is already in the public domain, so
        > > National can not regulate the use of that logo, unless used in
        > conjunction
        > > with another registered mark.
        >
        > The question then is where is the line? If you use the fleur-de-lis over
        > Troop 123 does that become a registered mark? If you just use Troop 123 is
        > that a registered mark?
        >
        > I understand that National has relaxed their position somewhat and is not
        > interested in those producers that only supply t-shirts or patches or
        > whatever locally (within one Council) just those with a wider net, i.e.
        > more
        > revenue.
        >
        > But what about the local bakery in a regional/national grocery chain that
        > decorates a cake for an Eagle Court of Honor and uses the Eagle Badge? I
        > think that this is likely to be honored in the breach more than the
        > application.
        >
        > YiS
        >
        > Roy Fisher
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Sean Scott
        ClassB.com is a licensed BSA vendor according to BSA s licensing web site, so actually they can. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 1, 2008
          ClassB.com is a licensed BSA vendor according to BSA's licensing web
          site, so actually they can.

          On Jan 1, 2008, at 1:36 PM, eagle9252 wrote:

          > classb can make the fleur-de-lis scout shirts but not with the eagle
          > overlay



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • eagle9252
          just a quote from our DE but if soi wonder would the rice f the shirts go up ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 1, 2008
            just a quote from our DE

            but if soi wonder would the rice f the shirts go up


            On 1/1/08, Sean Scott <sscott@...> wrote:
            >
            > ClassB.com is a licensed BSA vendor according to BSA's licensing web
            > site, so actually they can.
            >
            > On Jan 1, 2008, at 1:36 PM, eagle9252 wrote:
            >
            > > classb can make the fleur-de-lis scout shirts but not with the eagle
            > > overlay
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Stephen Gallagher
            You are correct wtih most of what you have written! the copy right laws are very stringent, however a gift and no profit are where you need to be corrected.
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 3, 2008
              You are correct wtih most of what you have written! the copy right laws are very stringent, however a gift and no profit are where you need to be corrected. there is nothing stopping the creation and gifting of an item that falls under the copyright laws. This is considered freedom of speech. however if you charge in any way for the item then they can take all you have.

              Stephen Gallagher
              Scoutmaster: T-164
              Portsmouth NH

              Owner: Lovewell Mountain Regalia
              www.lovewellmtn.com

              Not yet licensed but working on it!

              Don Wilson <don-wilson@...> wrote:
              Actually, it is worse than that. Now items that have any part of the
              BSA logo, words or word grouping protected by Copywrite, may be
              purchased only only from an authorized vendor, and most councils are
              establishing a policy that purchase of all items must go through the
              council office. Yep, that means patches, too.

              If you carry this far enough, one could not design a "T" shirt on
              their personal computer that includes any of the items protected by
              copywrite, and give the shirts away without incurring stiff
              penalties. Remember the trouble that crafters had when they used
              Mickey Mouse and Tweetie Bird on shirts?

              Don Wilson--
              "There are only four kinds of people in the world:
              Those who have been caregivers;
              Those who are currently caregivers;
              Those who will be caregivers; and
              Those who will need caregivers."
              Rosalynn Carter






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            • Stephen Gallagher
              They can only reproduce with the eagle if that was in tehir marketing plan they forwarded with their licensing application. Licensure with BSA is not for
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 3, 2008
                They can only reproduce with the eagle if that was in tehir marketing plan they forwarded with their licensing application. Licensure with BSA is not for everything you have to have a seperate plan for what you are going to embellish!

                The process sucks Trust me.

                Stephen Gallagher
                www.lovewellmtn.com

                Sean Scott <sscott@...> wrote:
                ClassB.com is a licensed BSA vendor according to BSA's licensing web
                site, so actually they can.

                On Jan 1, 2008, at 1:36 PM, eagle9252 wrote:

                > classb can make the fleur-de-lis scout shirts but not with the eagle
                > overlay

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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