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RE: [Scouter_T] BSA Copyright

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  • Don Wilson
    From our Council news publication The RAVEN, Vol. 27, Issue 3, May 2007: .....Basically, this new enforcement of longstanding BSA guidelines is being
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 1, 2008
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      From our Council news publication The RAVEN, Vol. 27, Issue 3, May
      2007:

      ".....Basically, this new enforcement of longstanding BSA guidelines
      is being implemented through a new product licensing program, where
      by manufacturing, distributors, and vendors must obtain a license
      from BSA before producing or selling items marked with BSA symbols,
      phrases, words, insignia, or any other trademarked or copyrighted
      marks.
      ".....Implementing these copyright/trademark guidelines will be
      cumbersome, and maybe even a little frustrating at
      first......Although the number of currently licensed vendors is
      limited, we have been pleased t0 discover that pricing is comparable
      to our previous sources, and that turnaround time from order to
      delivery is similarly or even quicker than before. In addition, we
      are assured that the quality of products will be as good as before,
      since all of these licensees have long-standing relationships with
      various Scout councils and other organizations.
      "Here are some questions that volunteers may have about the new
      licensing program:

      "Q. May a local unit use BSA marks on its own T-shirts, patches,
      etc? May a local unit use an online service such as cafepress.com to
      produce troop T-shirts?
      "A. Units may use the BSA marks on on T-shirts and patches
      providing they purchase these from an official licensee. Services
      such as cafepress.com are not official licensees of the BSA.

      "Q. Will units be able to use the BSA's marks on their websites?
      "A. Yes, Providing the units follow the guidelines for trademark
      use as posted on www.scouting.org/identity , as long as the websites
      are used for informational and educational purposes of the unit and
      BSA's program. The unit website must not sell merchandise or link to
      another website that sells merchandise, nor may the unit website
      engage in fund-raising or otherwise benefit commercially in any way
      from the use of BSA proprietary marks.

      "Q. Will units be able to use the BSA's marks on stationery, unit
      calendars, newsletters, etc?
      "A. Yes. The conditions for use are the same as those for website
      use (above). Additionally, the printed materials must be used for
      BSA program purposes only (in other words, not for fund-raising or
      any commercial purpose).

      "Q. How will a unit know if a vendor is licensed by the BSA?
      "A. The ..........council will post a list of licensed vendors on
      its website. Additionally, all licensed vendors will display an
      "Official Licensee" seal on websites and printed material, and
      licensed products will be marked with an "officially Licensed
      Product" seal.

      "Q. What is a "proprietary mark"?
      "A. Any word, phrase, insignia, emblem or other mark which is
      associated with the BSA. If a question arises about a particular
      mark, your local council can provide guidance regarding its use.

      "Q. Can a unit purchase trophies, plaques, etc. from local vendors
      for presentation at unit functions?
      "A. If the recognition items include any BSA proprietary marks, the
      vendor from which these items are purchased must be an official
      licensee of the BSA.

      "Q. How long will it take for local units to get licensed products
      (T-shirts, patches, etc.)?
      "A. Since licensed vendors may not be available locally for some
      products, units should plan well in advance for any purchasing needs.
      4-6 weeks minimum should be allowed to assume that items can be
      delivered in time for events, activities.

      "Q. How can a vendor (T-shirt company, embroidery company, etc.)
      apply for a license?
      "A. To request a licensing application and permission to use BSA
      mark, word, or phrases, vendors should send an e-mail to
      licensing@... ."

      Here is the important part from www.scouting.org/identity :

      "No council, unit, or third party may use BSA proprietary marks for
      any commercial purposes (e.g., manufacturing, creating, or selling
      items bearing BSA proprietary marks or manufacturing or otherwise
      creating items that could potentially be for resale), nor may any
      organization other than the BSA National Council authorize such
      rights, either actual or implied, to any third party."

      The Q & A above seems to answer the questions, BUT -- what about a
      notice of a car wash to raise money for an Eagle project? May any
      proprietary mark be used? I have a woodworking tools and a copier or
      laser printer, may I produce plaques for presentation at
      unit/district events?

      Will BSA come down hard on those that might not follow the
      directives? Likely not at first or until enough vendors are on line,
      but you can bet your bottom buck that your District Executive will be
      instructed to remind or make you aware of the policy and then the
      council may likely find a way to insure that the practice is brought
      to a halt.

      Don Wilson
      HRD-OHC 427


      -- Success is not the destination, it is the journey.
    • NeilLup@aol.com
      ... Hello Mark, Happy New Year! I apologize in this New Year for hairsplitting but if we are going to talk with some precision about matters of intellectual
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 1, 2008
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        In a message dated 1/1/08 11:39:56 AM, marklandry@... writes:


        > However, in requiring that permission be obtained to use any copyrighted
        > material, National is only doing what Congress requires to maintain a
        > copyright. If a name or mark becomes so familiar and used by the public at
        > will, it will fall into the public domain, and the copyright holder will
        > lose his rights.
        >

        Hello Mark,

        Happy New Year!

        I apologize in this New Year for hairsplitting but if we are going to talk
        with some precision about matters of intellectual property, it probably is
        wise to do it properly and to use terms properly and accurately. (With
        apologies to those who could care less.)

        I am not an attorney but am a layman who does work with IP in some depth.
        I know of at least 45types of intellectual property:

        1) Patents
        2) Trade Secrets
        3) Tradenames
        4) Trademarks
        5) Copyrights

        I don't believe that we are talking about the first three in discussions of
        the BSA. However, we do deal with Trademarks and Copyrights and in what
        you have written above, I fear you have confused the two.

        A trademark is a unique, non-descriptive coined name, picture, drawing, etc.
        given to some article of goods, unique service, etc. In the US, a
        trademark can be "registered" with the US Patent and Trademark office and this
        gives one certain rights and protection. A registered trademark is signified
        by a circle with an "R" in it. Or there can be an unregistered trademark
        with a TM designation. For a service mark, the designation is SM.

        It is a trademark which can be "lost" if it becomes so commonly used to
        describe an item or area of goods that it is deemed generic and no longer uniquely
        associated with a company. "Formica" lost trademark protection in this way
        and, I believe, aspirin did too. A trademark is an adjective and proper
        use of the trademark requires that it be an adjective modifying the type of
        goods. So if you listen carefully, you will hear Coca Cola BEVERAGE or
        Apple COMPUTER or Big Mac SANDWICH.

        You can find registered trademarks by going to the patent and trademark
        office website www.uspto.gov and searching.

        A trademark does not have any fixed expiration date. One can keep renewing
        it indefinitely as long as it is in use.

        Copyrights, on the other hand, protect creative works like books, music,
        art, etc. Copyrighted material is designated by a circle with a "C". One
        can register a copyright with the Patent and Trademark Office and one must do
        so if one plans to sue for protection, but that is not necessary for
        something to be copyrighted. Rather, whenever one puts pen to paper, something
        copyrighted is created (even, for example, this post.) It is the area of
        copyrights which have received so much attention in digital music and which
        have recently had the extensions of term. There is a fixed term for
        copyrights after which something becomes public domain but the rules are complicated
        and too elaborate to list here. Suffice it to say that for anything "modern"
        the period is many, many years.

        I would also note that the copyright protects the embodiment of creative
        work, but one cannot copyright ideas themselves. Ideas are in the public
        domain (unless they can be patented.)

        What you wrote is reasonably accurate for trademarks. It is not accurate
        for copyrights. As I understand matters, one does not lose copyright
        protection by failing to enforce and one can, after a period of time, start to
        enforce providing that one does so uniformly and not discriminitatively.

        The BSA has a lengthy write-up on its web site concerning its trademarks
        which are many. They demand licensing, as is their right, and is proper to
        protect their trademarks. If they fail to do so, they could lose the
        tradematks. Things such as the BSA trefoil, and the terms "Eagle Scout", "Cub
        Scout" and "Boy Scout" are trademarks.

        I looked and did not find anything about BSA owned copyrights on the BSA web
        site. Items like the content of the Boy Scout Handbook and the content of
        training manuals are BSA owned copyrights. I have heard that it is permitted
        to copy BSA materials for use in BSA training courses and operations. I
        have not found that in writing. I have also heard that local councils can
        give permission to copy BSA publications for BSA purposes. Again, I do not
        have that in writing and cannot state with confidence that it is true.

        Two other items:

        1) Some of the content of the original 21st Wood Badge was the copyrighted
        intellectual property of the Ken Blanchard organization. The BSA purchased
        a paid license to use this material and under the terms of this license, the
        BSA was allowed to make a certain number of copies and no more. This was
        part of the reason for the very strict rules on copying of the early 21st
        Century Wood Badge staff guides.

        2) There is a provision created by law and judicial decisions called "fair
        use" copying of copyright materials. This allows, under certain
        circumstances, legal and licit copying of copyright materials on a limited basis with
        no permission or royalty being required. This is not theft and is not a
        violation of A Scout is Trustworthy. It is your right. However, exactly
        what is fair use is complex and there is no bright shining line of demarcation.
        It is not as simple as "if it is for a non-profit organization, it is
        fair use." If one is planning on copying something under fair use, it is a
        good idea to read up a little and make one's own decision.

        I apologize to the listmembers for whom this is vastly too much information.
        However, I become bothered when I read "That is copyright, you can't
        copy it." It ain't necessarily so.

        Best wishes and have a wonderful New year.

        Neil Lupton


        **************************************
        See AOL's top rated recipes
        (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)


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      • eagle9252
        bsa can never trademark the fleur-de-lis but with the over lay of the eagle yes they can and are classb can make the fleur-de-lis scout shirts but not with
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 1, 2008
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          bsa can never trademark the fleur-de-lis but with the over lay of the eagle
          yes they can and are

          classb can make the fleur-de-lis scout shirts but not with the eagle
          overlay


          On 1/1/08, Roy Fisher <rfisher003@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
          > scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
          > Of Mark Landry
          > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 10:39 AM
          > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com>
          > Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] BSA Copyright
          >
          > > Simply because National has a policy of requiring permission for use of
          > > the marks, it does not follow automatically that a charge will be
          > imposed.
          > > And I do not see national filing suit against a Cub Scout pack whose
          > pack
          > > shirt has a BSA logo.
          >
          > But it very well MIGHT go after the t-shirt shop that produced them.
          >
          > > And the fleur-de-lis is already in the public domain, so
          > > National can not regulate the use of that logo, unless used in
          > conjunction
          > > with another registered mark.
          >
          > The question then is where is the line? If you use the fleur-de-lis over
          > Troop 123 does that become a registered mark? If you just use Troop 123 is
          > that a registered mark?
          >
          > I understand that National has relaxed their position somewhat and is not
          > interested in those producers that only supply t-shirts or patches or
          > whatever locally (within one Council) just those with a wider net, i.e.
          > more
          > revenue.
          >
          > But what about the local bakery in a regional/national grocery chain that
          > decorates a cake for an Eagle Court of Honor and uses the Eagle Badge? I
          > think that this is likely to be honored in the breach more than the
          > application.
          >
          > YiS
          >
          > Roy Fisher
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Sean Scott
          ClassB.com is a licensed BSA vendor according to BSA s licensing web site, so actually they can. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 1, 2008
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            ClassB.com is a licensed BSA vendor according to BSA's licensing web
            site, so actually they can.

            On Jan 1, 2008, at 1:36 PM, eagle9252 wrote:

            > classb can make the fleur-de-lis scout shirts but not with the eagle
            > overlay



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • eagle9252
            just a quote from our DE but if soi wonder would the rice f the shirts go up ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 1, 2008
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              just a quote from our DE

              but if soi wonder would the rice f the shirts go up


              On 1/1/08, Sean Scott <sscott@...> wrote:
              >
              > ClassB.com is a licensed BSA vendor according to BSA's licensing web
              > site, so actually they can.
              >
              > On Jan 1, 2008, at 1:36 PM, eagle9252 wrote:
              >
              > > classb can make the fleur-de-lis scout shirts but not with the eagle
              > > overlay
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Stephen Gallagher
              You are correct wtih most of what you have written! the copy right laws are very stringent, however a gift and no profit are where you need to be corrected.
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 3, 2008
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                You are correct wtih most of what you have written! the copy right laws are very stringent, however a gift and no profit are where you need to be corrected. there is nothing stopping the creation and gifting of an item that falls under the copyright laws. This is considered freedom of speech. however if you charge in any way for the item then they can take all you have.

                Stephen Gallagher
                Scoutmaster: T-164
                Portsmouth NH

                Owner: Lovewell Mountain Regalia
                www.lovewellmtn.com

                Not yet licensed but working on it!

                Don Wilson <don-wilson@...> wrote:
                Actually, it is worse than that. Now items that have any part of the
                BSA logo, words or word grouping protected by Copywrite, may be
                purchased only only from an authorized vendor, and most councils are
                establishing a policy that purchase of all items must go through the
                council office. Yep, that means patches, too.

                If you carry this far enough, one could not design a "T" shirt on
                their personal computer that includes any of the items protected by
                copywrite, and give the shirts away without incurring stiff
                penalties. Remember the trouble that crafters had when they used
                Mickey Mouse and Tweetie Bird on shirts?

                Don Wilson--
                "There are only four kinds of people in the world:
                Those who have been caregivers;
                Those who are currently caregivers;
                Those who will be caregivers; and
                Those who will need caregivers."
                Rosalynn Carter






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              • Stephen Gallagher
                They can only reproduce with the eagle if that was in tehir marketing plan they forwarded with their licensing application. Licensure with BSA is not for
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 3, 2008
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                  They can only reproduce with the eagle if that was in tehir marketing plan they forwarded with their licensing application. Licensure with BSA is not for everything you have to have a seperate plan for what you are going to embellish!

                  The process sucks Trust me.

                  Stephen Gallagher
                  www.lovewellmtn.com

                  Sean Scott <sscott@...> wrote:
                  ClassB.com is a licensed BSA vendor according to BSA's licensing web
                  site, so actually they can.

                  On Jan 1, 2008, at 1:36 PM, eagle9252 wrote:

                  > classb can make the fleur-de-lis scout shirts but not with the eagle
                  > overlay

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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