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Re: [Scouter_T] BSA Copyright

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  • Don Wilson
    Actually, it is worse than that. Now items that have any part of the BSA logo, words or word grouping protected by Copywrite, may be purchased only only from
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 31, 2007
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      Actually, it is worse than that. Now items that have any part of the
      BSA logo, words or word grouping protected by Copywrite, may be
      purchased only only from an authorized vendor, and most councils are
      establishing a policy that purchase of all items must go through the
      council office. Yep, that means patches, too.

      If you carry this far enough, one could not design a "T" shirt on
      their personal computer that includes any of the items protected by
      copywrite, and give the shirts away without incurring stiff
      penalties. Remember the trouble that crafters had when they used
      Mickey Mouse and Tweetie Bird on shirts?

      Don Wilson--
      "There are only four kinds of people in the world:
      Those who have been caregivers;
      Those who are currently caregivers;
      Those who will be caregivers; and
      Those who will need caregivers."
      Rosalynn Carter
    • Mark Landry
      I would like to wait until we hear from National about charges for use of the copyright. Normally, items that are sold by National Supply can not be
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 1, 2008
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        I would like to wait until we hear from National about charges for use of
        the copyright. Normally, items that are sold by National Supply can not be
        duplicated, but must be bought. The reason appears obvious, but some think
        that anytime National wants to collect money, it is being greedy. However,
        the freight for the national office has to be paid, and much of that money
        goes into providing the program. (Can you imagine the cost if all of us did
        not volunteer?)



        However, in requiring that permission be obtained to use any copyrighted
        material, National is only doing what Congress requires to maintain a
        copyright. If a name or mark becomes so familiar and used by the public at
        will, it will fall into the public domain, and the copyright holder will
        lose his rights. That is why most manufacturers guard the use of any of
        their marks. It is not that Coke, for example, does not want its image
        plastered all over everything. If it could get more, for free, I can not
        see how it would object, UNLESS it ran the risk of losing its exclusive
        right to control, WHEN IT WISHED, the use of that mark.



        Simply because National has a policy of requiring permission for use of the
        marks, it does not follow automatically that a charge will be imposed. And
        I do not see national filing suit against a Cub Scout pack whose pack shirt
        has a BSA logo. And the fleur-de-lis is already in the public domain, so
        National can not regulate the use of that logo, unless used in conjunction
        with another registered mark. In New Orleans, the fleur-de-lis is the
        symbol of our city, and since Hurricane Katrina, local pride in our
        rebuilding effort has led to fleur-de-lis symbols on just about everything.
        (Let's not mention the Saints today, please. Last Sunday was hard enough to
        take).



        Yours in Scouting



        Mark C. Landry

        Council Training Chair

        Southeast Louisiana Council

        _____

        From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        Of Don Wilson
        Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 11:00 PM
        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] BSA Copyright



        Actually, it is worse than that. Now items that have any part of the
        BSA logo, words or word grouping protected by Copywrite, may be
        purchased only only from an authorized vendor, and most councils are
        establishing a policy that purchase of all items must go through the
        council office. Yep, that means patches, too.

        If you carry this far enough, one could not design a "T" shirt on
        their personal computer that includes any of the items protected by
        copywrite, and give the shirts away without incurring stiff
        penalties. Remember the trouble that crafters had when they used
        Mickey Mouse and Tweetie Bird on shirts?

        Don Wilson--
        "There are only four kinds of people in the world:
        Those who have been caregivers;
        Those who are currently caregivers;
        Those who will be caregivers; and
        Those who will need caregivers."
        Rosalynn Carter





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Roy Fisher
        ... From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Landry Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 10:39 AM To:
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 1, 2008
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          -----Original Message-----
          From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          Of Mark Landry
          Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 10:39 AM
          To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] BSA Copyright

          > Simply because National has a policy of requiring permission for use of
          > the marks, it does not follow automatically that a charge will be imposed.
          > And I do not see national filing suit against a Cub Scout pack whose pack
          > shirt has a BSA logo.

          But it very well MIGHT go after the t-shirt shop that produced them.

          > And the fleur-de-lis is already in the public domain, so
          > National can not regulate the use of that logo, unless used in conjunction
          > with another registered mark.

          The question then is where is the line? If you use the fleur-de-lis over
          Troop 123 does that become a registered mark? If you just use Troop 123 is
          that a registered mark?

          I understand that National has relaxed their position somewhat and is not
          interested in those producers that only supply t-shirts or patches or
          whatever locally (within one Council) just those with a wider net, i.e. more
          revenue.

          But what about the local bakery in a regional/national grocery chain that
          decorates a cake for an Eagle Court of Honor and uses the Eagle Badge? I
          think that this is likely to be honored in the breach more than the
          application.

          YiS

          Roy Fisher
        • Don Wilson
          From our Council news publication The RAVEN, Vol. 27, Issue 3, May 2007: .....Basically, this new enforcement of longstanding BSA guidelines is being
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 1, 2008
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            From our Council news publication The RAVEN, Vol. 27, Issue 3, May
            2007:

            ".....Basically, this new enforcement of longstanding BSA guidelines
            is being implemented through a new product licensing program, where
            by manufacturing, distributors, and vendors must obtain a license
            from BSA before producing or selling items marked with BSA symbols,
            phrases, words, insignia, or any other trademarked or copyrighted
            marks.
            ".....Implementing these copyright/trademark guidelines will be
            cumbersome, and maybe even a little frustrating at
            first......Although the number of currently licensed vendors is
            limited, we have been pleased t0 discover that pricing is comparable
            to our previous sources, and that turnaround time from order to
            delivery is similarly or even quicker than before. In addition, we
            are assured that the quality of products will be as good as before,
            since all of these licensees have long-standing relationships with
            various Scout councils and other organizations.
            "Here are some questions that volunteers may have about the new
            licensing program:

            "Q. May a local unit use BSA marks on its own T-shirts, patches,
            etc? May a local unit use an online service such as cafepress.com to
            produce troop T-shirts?
            "A. Units may use the BSA marks on on T-shirts and patches
            providing they purchase these from an official licensee. Services
            such as cafepress.com are not official licensees of the BSA.

            "Q. Will units be able to use the BSA's marks on their websites?
            "A. Yes, Providing the units follow the guidelines for trademark
            use as posted on www.scouting.org/identity , as long as the websites
            are used for informational and educational purposes of the unit and
            BSA's program. The unit website must not sell merchandise or link to
            another website that sells merchandise, nor may the unit website
            engage in fund-raising or otherwise benefit commercially in any way
            from the use of BSA proprietary marks.

            "Q. Will units be able to use the BSA's marks on stationery, unit
            calendars, newsletters, etc?
            "A. Yes. The conditions for use are the same as those for website
            use (above). Additionally, the printed materials must be used for
            BSA program purposes only (in other words, not for fund-raising or
            any commercial purpose).

            "Q. How will a unit know if a vendor is licensed by the BSA?
            "A. The ..........council will post a list of licensed vendors on
            its website. Additionally, all licensed vendors will display an
            "Official Licensee" seal on websites and printed material, and
            licensed products will be marked with an "officially Licensed
            Product" seal.

            "Q. What is a "proprietary mark"?
            "A. Any word, phrase, insignia, emblem or other mark which is
            associated with the BSA. If a question arises about a particular
            mark, your local council can provide guidance regarding its use.

            "Q. Can a unit purchase trophies, plaques, etc. from local vendors
            for presentation at unit functions?
            "A. If the recognition items include any BSA proprietary marks, the
            vendor from which these items are purchased must be an official
            licensee of the BSA.

            "Q. How long will it take for local units to get licensed products
            (T-shirts, patches, etc.)?
            "A. Since licensed vendors may not be available locally for some
            products, units should plan well in advance for any purchasing needs.
            4-6 weeks minimum should be allowed to assume that items can be
            delivered in time for events, activities.

            "Q. How can a vendor (T-shirt company, embroidery company, etc.)
            apply for a license?
            "A. To request a licensing application and permission to use BSA
            mark, word, or phrases, vendors should send an e-mail to
            licensing@... ."

            Here is the important part from www.scouting.org/identity :

            "No council, unit, or third party may use BSA proprietary marks for
            any commercial purposes (e.g., manufacturing, creating, or selling
            items bearing BSA proprietary marks or manufacturing or otherwise
            creating items that could potentially be for resale), nor may any
            organization other than the BSA National Council authorize such
            rights, either actual or implied, to any third party."

            The Q & A above seems to answer the questions, BUT -- what about a
            notice of a car wash to raise money for an Eagle project? May any
            proprietary mark be used? I have a woodworking tools and a copier or
            laser printer, may I produce plaques for presentation at
            unit/district events?

            Will BSA come down hard on those that might not follow the
            directives? Likely not at first or until enough vendors are on line,
            but you can bet your bottom buck that your District Executive will be
            instructed to remind or make you aware of the policy and then the
            council may likely find a way to insure that the practice is brought
            to a halt.

            Don Wilson
            HRD-OHC 427


            -- Success is not the destination, it is the journey.
          • NeilLup@aol.com
            ... Hello Mark, Happy New Year! I apologize in this New Year for hairsplitting but if we are going to talk with some precision about matters of intellectual
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 1, 2008
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              In a message dated 1/1/08 11:39:56 AM, marklandry@... writes:


              > However, in requiring that permission be obtained to use any copyrighted
              > material, National is only doing what Congress requires to maintain a
              > copyright. If a name or mark becomes so familiar and used by the public at
              > will, it will fall into the public domain, and the copyright holder will
              > lose his rights.
              >

              Hello Mark,

              Happy New Year!

              I apologize in this New Year for hairsplitting but if we are going to talk
              with some precision about matters of intellectual property, it probably is
              wise to do it properly and to use terms properly and accurately. (With
              apologies to those who could care less.)

              I am not an attorney but am a layman who does work with IP in some depth.
              I know of at least 45types of intellectual property:

              1) Patents
              2) Trade Secrets
              3) Tradenames
              4) Trademarks
              5) Copyrights

              I don't believe that we are talking about the first three in discussions of
              the BSA. However, we do deal with Trademarks and Copyrights and in what
              you have written above, I fear you have confused the two.

              A trademark is a unique, non-descriptive coined name, picture, drawing, etc.
              given to some article of goods, unique service, etc. In the US, a
              trademark can be "registered" with the US Patent and Trademark office and this
              gives one certain rights and protection. A registered trademark is signified
              by a circle with an "R" in it. Or there can be an unregistered trademark
              with a TM designation. For a service mark, the designation is SM.

              It is a trademark which can be "lost" if it becomes so commonly used to
              describe an item or area of goods that it is deemed generic and no longer uniquely
              associated with a company. "Formica" lost trademark protection in this way
              and, I believe, aspirin did too. A trademark is an adjective and proper
              use of the trademark requires that it be an adjective modifying the type of
              goods. So if you listen carefully, you will hear Coca Cola BEVERAGE or
              Apple COMPUTER or Big Mac SANDWICH.

              You can find registered trademarks by going to the patent and trademark
              office website www.uspto.gov and searching.

              A trademark does not have any fixed expiration date. One can keep renewing
              it indefinitely as long as it is in use.

              Copyrights, on the other hand, protect creative works like books, music,
              art, etc. Copyrighted material is designated by a circle with a "C". One
              can register a copyright with the Patent and Trademark Office and one must do
              so if one plans to sue for protection, but that is not necessary for
              something to be copyrighted. Rather, whenever one puts pen to paper, something
              copyrighted is created (even, for example, this post.) It is the area of
              copyrights which have received so much attention in digital music and which
              have recently had the extensions of term. There is a fixed term for
              copyrights after which something becomes public domain but the rules are complicated
              and too elaborate to list here. Suffice it to say that for anything "modern"
              the period is many, many years.

              I would also note that the copyright protects the embodiment of creative
              work, but one cannot copyright ideas themselves. Ideas are in the public
              domain (unless they can be patented.)

              What you wrote is reasonably accurate for trademarks. It is not accurate
              for copyrights. As I understand matters, one does not lose copyright
              protection by failing to enforce and one can, after a period of time, start to
              enforce providing that one does so uniformly and not discriminitatively.

              The BSA has a lengthy write-up on its web site concerning its trademarks
              which are many. They demand licensing, as is their right, and is proper to
              protect their trademarks. If they fail to do so, they could lose the
              tradematks. Things such as the BSA trefoil, and the terms "Eagle Scout", "Cub
              Scout" and "Boy Scout" are trademarks.

              I looked and did not find anything about BSA owned copyrights on the BSA web
              site. Items like the content of the Boy Scout Handbook and the content of
              training manuals are BSA owned copyrights. I have heard that it is permitted
              to copy BSA materials for use in BSA training courses and operations. I
              have not found that in writing. I have also heard that local councils can
              give permission to copy BSA publications for BSA purposes. Again, I do not
              have that in writing and cannot state with confidence that it is true.

              Two other items:

              1) Some of the content of the original 21st Wood Badge was the copyrighted
              intellectual property of the Ken Blanchard organization. The BSA purchased
              a paid license to use this material and under the terms of this license, the
              BSA was allowed to make a certain number of copies and no more. This was
              part of the reason for the very strict rules on copying of the early 21st
              Century Wood Badge staff guides.

              2) There is a provision created by law and judicial decisions called "fair
              use" copying of copyright materials. This allows, under certain
              circumstances, legal and licit copying of copyright materials on a limited basis with
              no permission or royalty being required. This is not theft and is not a
              violation of A Scout is Trustworthy. It is your right. However, exactly
              what is fair use is complex and there is no bright shining line of demarcation.
              It is not as simple as "if it is for a non-profit organization, it is
              fair use." If one is planning on copying something under fair use, it is a
              good idea to read up a little and make one's own decision.

              I apologize to the listmembers for whom this is vastly too much information.
              However, I become bothered when I read "That is copyright, you can't
              copy it." It ain't necessarily so.

              Best wishes and have a wonderful New year.

              Neil Lupton


              **************************************
              See AOL's top rated recipes
              (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • eagle9252
              bsa can never trademark the fleur-de-lis but with the over lay of the eagle yes they can and are classb can make the fleur-de-lis scout shirts but not with
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 1, 2008
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                bsa can never trademark the fleur-de-lis but with the over lay of the eagle
                yes they can and are

                classb can make the fleur-de-lis scout shirts but not with the eagle
                overlay


                On 1/1/08, Roy Fisher <rfisher003@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                > scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
                > Of Mark Landry
                > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 10:39 AM
                > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com>
                > Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] BSA Copyright
                >
                > > Simply because National has a policy of requiring permission for use of
                > > the marks, it does not follow automatically that a charge will be
                > imposed.
                > > And I do not see national filing suit against a Cub Scout pack whose
                > pack
                > > shirt has a BSA logo.
                >
                > But it very well MIGHT go after the t-shirt shop that produced them.
                >
                > > And the fleur-de-lis is already in the public domain, so
                > > National can not regulate the use of that logo, unless used in
                > conjunction
                > > with another registered mark.
                >
                > The question then is where is the line? If you use the fleur-de-lis over
                > Troop 123 does that become a registered mark? If you just use Troop 123 is
                > that a registered mark?
                >
                > I understand that National has relaxed their position somewhat and is not
                > interested in those producers that only supply t-shirts or patches or
                > whatever locally (within one Council) just those with a wider net, i.e.
                > more
                > revenue.
                >
                > But what about the local bakery in a regional/national grocery chain that
                > decorates a cake for an Eagle Court of Honor and uses the Eagle Badge? I
                > think that this is likely to be honored in the breach more than the
                > application.
                >
                > YiS
                >
                > Roy Fisher
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Sean Scott
                ClassB.com is a licensed BSA vendor according to BSA s licensing web site, so actually they can. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 1, 2008
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                  ClassB.com is a licensed BSA vendor according to BSA's licensing web
                  site, so actually they can.

                  On Jan 1, 2008, at 1:36 PM, eagle9252 wrote:

                  > classb can make the fleur-de-lis scout shirts but not with the eagle
                  > overlay



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • eagle9252
                  just a quote from our DE but if soi wonder would the rice f the shirts go up ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 1, 2008
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                    just a quote from our DE

                    but if soi wonder would the rice f the shirts go up


                    On 1/1/08, Sean Scott <sscott@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > ClassB.com is a licensed BSA vendor according to BSA's licensing web
                    > site, so actually they can.
                    >
                    > On Jan 1, 2008, at 1:36 PM, eagle9252 wrote:
                    >
                    > > classb can make the fleur-de-lis scout shirts but not with the eagle
                    > > overlay
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Stephen Gallagher
                    You are correct wtih most of what you have written! the copy right laws are very stringent, however a gift and no profit are where you need to be corrected.
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 3, 2008
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                      You are correct wtih most of what you have written! the copy right laws are very stringent, however a gift and no profit are where you need to be corrected. there is nothing stopping the creation and gifting of an item that falls under the copyright laws. This is considered freedom of speech. however if you charge in any way for the item then they can take all you have.

                      Stephen Gallagher
                      Scoutmaster: T-164
                      Portsmouth NH

                      Owner: Lovewell Mountain Regalia
                      www.lovewellmtn.com

                      Not yet licensed but working on it!

                      Don Wilson <don-wilson@...> wrote:
                      Actually, it is worse than that. Now items that have any part of the
                      BSA logo, words or word grouping protected by Copywrite, may be
                      purchased only only from an authorized vendor, and most councils are
                      establishing a policy that purchase of all items must go through the
                      council office. Yep, that means patches, too.

                      If you carry this far enough, one could not design a "T" shirt on
                      their personal computer that includes any of the items protected by
                      copywrite, and give the shirts away without incurring stiff
                      penalties. Remember the trouble that crafters had when they used
                      Mickey Mouse and Tweetie Bird on shirts?

                      Don Wilson--
                      "There are only four kinds of people in the world:
                      Those who have been caregivers;
                      Those who are currently caregivers;
                      Those who will be caregivers; and
                      Those who will need caregivers."
                      Rosalynn Carter






                      ---------------------------------
                      Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Stephen Gallagher
                      They can only reproduce with the eagle if that was in tehir marketing plan they forwarded with their licensing application. Licensure with BSA is not for
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jan 3, 2008
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                        They can only reproduce with the eagle if that was in tehir marketing plan they forwarded with their licensing application. Licensure with BSA is not for everything you have to have a seperate plan for what you are going to embellish!

                        The process sucks Trust me.

                        Stephen Gallagher
                        www.lovewellmtn.com

                        Sean Scott <sscott@...> wrote:
                        ClassB.com is a licensed BSA vendor according to BSA's licensing web
                        site, so actually they can.

                        On Jan 1, 2008, at 1:36 PM, eagle9252 wrote:

                        > classb can make the fleur-de-lis scout shirts but not with the eagle
                        > overlay

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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