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Re: [Scouter_T] BSA Copyright

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  • eagle9252
    yes you are correct but the funny thing is they are copy righting the flor-de-lee and the eagle together. i was told by our DE that places like classb t-shirts
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 30, 2007
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      yes you are correct but the funny thing is they are copy righting the
      flor-de-lee and the eagle together. i was told by our DE that places like
      classb t-shirts and others will have to start paying a fee just to use it.




      On 12/29/07, Scouter Chuck <antelope95@...> wrote:
      >
      > Brian:
      >
      > You wrote...
      >
      > > I have been told, and seem to remember seeing the official policy in
      > > print regarding copying BSA copyrighted training materials. My
      > > understanding is that the BSA grants us license to copy the materials
      > > for training purposes.
      > >
      > > Is this the correct policy? If so, where can I find it in print? My
      > > Wood Badge course director is looking for it. Thanks.
      >
      > Try searching the Scouts-L archives. I seem to remember this being
      > discussed over there several years ago.
      >
      > Hope this helps...
      >
      > YiS,
      >
      > Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...<antelope95%40cox.net>
      > I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
      > Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
      > District Committee Member at Large
      > ----------------------------------------------------------
      > "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
      > -- Stephen R. Covey
      > ----------------------------------------------------------
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Don Wilson
      Actually, it is worse than that. Now items that have any part of the BSA logo, words or word grouping protected by Copywrite, may be purchased only only from
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 31, 2007
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        Actually, it is worse than that. Now items that have any part of the
        BSA logo, words or word grouping protected by Copywrite, may be
        purchased only only from an authorized vendor, and most councils are
        establishing a policy that purchase of all items must go through the
        council office. Yep, that means patches, too.

        If you carry this far enough, one could not design a "T" shirt on
        their personal computer that includes any of the items protected by
        copywrite, and give the shirts away without incurring stiff
        penalties. Remember the trouble that crafters had when they used
        Mickey Mouse and Tweetie Bird on shirts?

        Don Wilson--
        "There are only four kinds of people in the world:
        Those who have been caregivers;
        Those who are currently caregivers;
        Those who will be caregivers; and
        Those who will need caregivers."
        Rosalynn Carter
      • Mark Landry
        I would like to wait until we hear from National about charges for use of the copyright. Normally, items that are sold by National Supply can not be
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 1, 2008
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          I would like to wait until we hear from National about charges for use of
          the copyright. Normally, items that are sold by National Supply can not be
          duplicated, but must be bought. The reason appears obvious, but some think
          that anytime National wants to collect money, it is being greedy. However,
          the freight for the national office has to be paid, and much of that money
          goes into providing the program. (Can you imagine the cost if all of us did
          not volunteer?)



          However, in requiring that permission be obtained to use any copyrighted
          material, National is only doing what Congress requires to maintain a
          copyright. If a name or mark becomes so familiar and used by the public at
          will, it will fall into the public domain, and the copyright holder will
          lose his rights. That is why most manufacturers guard the use of any of
          their marks. It is not that Coke, for example, does not want its image
          plastered all over everything. If it could get more, for free, I can not
          see how it would object, UNLESS it ran the risk of losing its exclusive
          right to control, WHEN IT WISHED, the use of that mark.



          Simply because National has a policy of requiring permission for use of the
          marks, it does not follow automatically that a charge will be imposed. And
          I do not see national filing suit against a Cub Scout pack whose pack shirt
          has a BSA logo. And the fleur-de-lis is already in the public domain, so
          National can not regulate the use of that logo, unless used in conjunction
          with another registered mark. In New Orleans, the fleur-de-lis is the
          symbol of our city, and since Hurricane Katrina, local pride in our
          rebuilding effort has led to fleur-de-lis symbols on just about everything.
          (Let's not mention the Saints today, please. Last Sunday was hard enough to
          take).



          Yours in Scouting



          Mark C. Landry

          Council Training Chair

          Southeast Louisiana Council

          _____

          From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
          Of Don Wilson
          Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 11:00 PM
          To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] BSA Copyright



          Actually, it is worse than that. Now items that have any part of the
          BSA logo, words or word grouping protected by Copywrite, may be
          purchased only only from an authorized vendor, and most councils are
          establishing a policy that purchase of all items must go through the
          council office. Yep, that means patches, too.

          If you carry this far enough, one could not design a "T" shirt on
          their personal computer that includes any of the items protected by
          copywrite, and give the shirts away without incurring stiff
          penalties. Remember the trouble that crafters had when they used
          Mickey Mouse and Tweetie Bird on shirts?

          Don Wilson--
          "There are only four kinds of people in the world:
          Those who have been caregivers;
          Those who are currently caregivers;
          Those who will be caregivers; and
          Those who will need caregivers."
          Rosalynn Carter





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Roy Fisher
          ... From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Landry Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 10:39 AM To:
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 1, 2008
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            -----Original Message-----
            From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of Mark Landry
            Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 10:39 AM
            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] BSA Copyright

            > Simply because National has a policy of requiring permission for use of
            > the marks, it does not follow automatically that a charge will be imposed.
            > And I do not see national filing suit against a Cub Scout pack whose pack
            > shirt has a BSA logo.

            But it very well MIGHT go after the t-shirt shop that produced them.

            > And the fleur-de-lis is already in the public domain, so
            > National can not regulate the use of that logo, unless used in conjunction
            > with another registered mark.

            The question then is where is the line? If you use the fleur-de-lis over
            Troop 123 does that become a registered mark? If you just use Troop 123 is
            that a registered mark?

            I understand that National has relaxed their position somewhat and is not
            interested in those producers that only supply t-shirts or patches or
            whatever locally (within one Council) just those with a wider net, i.e. more
            revenue.

            But what about the local bakery in a regional/national grocery chain that
            decorates a cake for an Eagle Court of Honor and uses the Eagle Badge? I
            think that this is likely to be honored in the breach more than the
            application.

            YiS

            Roy Fisher
          • Don Wilson
            From our Council news publication The RAVEN, Vol. 27, Issue 3, May 2007: .....Basically, this new enforcement of longstanding BSA guidelines is being
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 1, 2008
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              From our Council news publication The RAVEN, Vol. 27, Issue 3, May
              2007:

              ".....Basically, this new enforcement of longstanding BSA guidelines
              is being implemented through a new product licensing program, where
              by manufacturing, distributors, and vendors must obtain a license
              from BSA before producing or selling items marked with BSA symbols,
              phrases, words, insignia, or any other trademarked or copyrighted
              marks.
              ".....Implementing these copyright/trademark guidelines will be
              cumbersome, and maybe even a little frustrating at
              first......Although the number of currently licensed vendors is
              limited, we have been pleased t0 discover that pricing is comparable
              to our previous sources, and that turnaround time from order to
              delivery is similarly or even quicker than before. In addition, we
              are assured that the quality of products will be as good as before,
              since all of these licensees have long-standing relationships with
              various Scout councils and other organizations.
              "Here are some questions that volunteers may have about the new
              licensing program:

              "Q. May a local unit use BSA marks on its own T-shirts, patches,
              etc? May a local unit use an online service such as cafepress.com to
              produce troop T-shirts?
              "A. Units may use the BSA marks on on T-shirts and patches
              providing they purchase these from an official licensee. Services
              such as cafepress.com are not official licensees of the BSA.

              "Q. Will units be able to use the BSA's marks on their websites?
              "A. Yes, Providing the units follow the guidelines for trademark
              use as posted on www.scouting.org/identity , as long as the websites
              are used for informational and educational purposes of the unit and
              BSA's program. The unit website must not sell merchandise or link to
              another website that sells merchandise, nor may the unit website
              engage in fund-raising or otherwise benefit commercially in any way
              from the use of BSA proprietary marks.

              "Q. Will units be able to use the BSA's marks on stationery, unit
              calendars, newsletters, etc?
              "A. Yes. The conditions for use are the same as those for website
              use (above). Additionally, the printed materials must be used for
              BSA program purposes only (in other words, not for fund-raising or
              any commercial purpose).

              "Q. How will a unit know if a vendor is licensed by the BSA?
              "A. The ..........council will post a list of licensed vendors on
              its website. Additionally, all licensed vendors will display an
              "Official Licensee" seal on websites and printed material, and
              licensed products will be marked with an "officially Licensed
              Product" seal.

              "Q. What is a "proprietary mark"?
              "A. Any word, phrase, insignia, emblem or other mark which is
              associated with the BSA. If a question arises about a particular
              mark, your local council can provide guidance regarding its use.

              "Q. Can a unit purchase trophies, plaques, etc. from local vendors
              for presentation at unit functions?
              "A. If the recognition items include any BSA proprietary marks, the
              vendor from which these items are purchased must be an official
              licensee of the BSA.

              "Q. How long will it take for local units to get licensed products
              (T-shirts, patches, etc.)?
              "A. Since licensed vendors may not be available locally for some
              products, units should plan well in advance for any purchasing needs.
              4-6 weeks minimum should be allowed to assume that items can be
              delivered in time for events, activities.

              "Q. How can a vendor (T-shirt company, embroidery company, etc.)
              apply for a license?
              "A. To request a licensing application and permission to use BSA
              mark, word, or phrases, vendors should send an e-mail to
              licensing@... ."

              Here is the important part from www.scouting.org/identity :

              "No council, unit, or third party may use BSA proprietary marks for
              any commercial purposes (e.g., manufacturing, creating, or selling
              items bearing BSA proprietary marks or manufacturing or otherwise
              creating items that could potentially be for resale), nor may any
              organization other than the BSA National Council authorize such
              rights, either actual or implied, to any third party."

              The Q & A above seems to answer the questions, BUT -- what about a
              notice of a car wash to raise money for an Eagle project? May any
              proprietary mark be used? I have a woodworking tools and a copier or
              laser printer, may I produce plaques for presentation at
              unit/district events?

              Will BSA come down hard on those that might not follow the
              directives? Likely not at first or until enough vendors are on line,
              but you can bet your bottom buck that your District Executive will be
              instructed to remind or make you aware of the policy and then the
              council may likely find a way to insure that the practice is brought
              to a halt.

              Don Wilson
              HRD-OHC 427


              -- Success is not the destination, it is the journey.
            • NeilLup@aol.com
              ... Hello Mark, Happy New Year! I apologize in this New Year for hairsplitting but if we are going to talk with some precision about matters of intellectual
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 1, 2008
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                In a message dated 1/1/08 11:39:56 AM, marklandry@... writes:


                > However, in requiring that permission be obtained to use any copyrighted
                > material, National is only doing what Congress requires to maintain a
                > copyright. If a name or mark becomes so familiar and used by the public at
                > will, it will fall into the public domain, and the copyright holder will
                > lose his rights.
                >

                Hello Mark,

                Happy New Year!

                I apologize in this New Year for hairsplitting but if we are going to talk
                with some precision about matters of intellectual property, it probably is
                wise to do it properly and to use terms properly and accurately. (With
                apologies to those who could care less.)

                I am not an attorney but am a layman who does work with IP in some depth.
                I know of at least 45types of intellectual property:

                1) Patents
                2) Trade Secrets
                3) Tradenames
                4) Trademarks
                5) Copyrights

                I don't believe that we are talking about the first three in discussions of
                the BSA. However, we do deal with Trademarks and Copyrights and in what
                you have written above, I fear you have confused the two.

                A trademark is a unique, non-descriptive coined name, picture, drawing, etc.
                given to some article of goods, unique service, etc. In the US, a
                trademark can be "registered" with the US Patent and Trademark office and this
                gives one certain rights and protection. A registered trademark is signified
                by a circle with an "R" in it. Or there can be an unregistered trademark
                with a TM designation. For a service mark, the designation is SM.

                It is a trademark which can be "lost" if it becomes so commonly used to
                describe an item or area of goods that it is deemed generic and no longer uniquely
                associated with a company. "Formica" lost trademark protection in this way
                and, I believe, aspirin did too. A trademark is an adjective and proper
                use of the trademark requires that it be an adjective modifying the type of
                goods. So if you listen carefully, you will hear Coca Cola BEVERAGE or
                Apple COMPUTER or Big Mac SANDWICH.

                You can find registered trademarks by going to the patent and trademark
                office website www.uspto.gov and searching.

                A trademark does not have any fixed expiration date. One can keep renewing
                it indefinitely as long as it is in use.

                Copyrights, on the other hand, protect creative works like books, music,
                art, etc. Copyrighted material is designated by a circle with a "C". One
                can register a copyright with the Patent and Trademark Office and one must do
                so if one plans to sue for protection, but that is not necessary for
                something to be copyrighted. Rather, whenever one puts pen to paper, something
                copyrighted is created (even, for example, this post.) It is the area of
                copyrights which have received so much attention in digital music and which
                have recently had the extensions of term. There is a fixed term for
                copyrights after which something becomes public domain but the rules are complicated
                and too elaborate to list here. Suffice it to say that for anything "modern"
                the period is many, many years.

                I would also note that the copyright protects the embodiment of creative
                work, but one cannot copyright ideas themselves. Ideas are in the public
                domain (unless they can be patented.)

                What you wrote is reasonably accurate for trademarks. It is not accurate
                for copyrights. As I understand matters, one does not lose copyright
                protection by failing to enforce and one can, after a period of time, start to
                enforce providing that one does so uniformly and not discriminitatively.

                The BSA has a lengthy write-up on its web site concerning its trademarks
                which are many. They demand licensing, as is their right, and is proper to
                protect their trademarks. If they fail to do so, they could lose the
                tradematks. Things such as the BSA trefoil, and the terms "Eagle Scout", "Cub
                Scout" and "Boy Scout" are trademarks.

                I looked and did not find anything about BSA owned copyrights on the BSA web
                site. Items like the content of the Boy Scout Handbook and the content of
                training manuals are BSA owned copyrights. I have heard that it is permitted
                to copy BSA materials for use in BSA training courses and operations. I
                have not found that in writing. I have also heard that local councils can
                give permission to copy BSA publications for BSA purposes. Again, I do not
                have that in writing and cannot state with confidence that it is true.

                Two other items:

                1) Some of the content of the original 21st Wood Badge was the copyrighted
                intellectual property of the Ken Blanchard organization. The BSA purchased
                a paid license to use this material and under the terms of this license, the
                BSA was allowed to make a certain number of copies and no more. This was
                part of the reason for the very strict rules on copying of the early 21st
                Century Wood Badge staff guides.

                2) There is a provision created by law and judicial decisions called "fair
                use" copying of copyright materials. This allows, under certain
                circumstances, legal and licit copying of copyright materials on a limited basis with
                no permission or royalty being required. This is not theft and is not a
                violation of A Scout is Trustworthy. It is your right. However, exactly
                what is fair use is complex and there is no bright shining line of demarcation.
                It is not as simple as "if it is for a non-profit organization, it is
                fair use." If one is planning on copying something under fair use, it is a
                good idea to read up a little and make one's own decision.

                I apologize to the listmembers for whom this is vastly too much information.
                However, I become bothered when I read "That is copyright, you can't
                copy it." It ain't necessarily so.

                Best wishes and have a wonderful New year.

                Neil Lupton


                **************************************
                See AOL's top rated recipes
                (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • eagle9252
                bsa can never trademark the fleur-de-lis but with the over lay of the eagle yes they can and are classb can make the fleur-de-lis scout shirts but not with
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 1, 2008
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                  bsa can never trademark the fleur-de-lis but with the over lay of the eagle
                  yes they can and are

                  classb can make the fleur-de-lis scout shirts but not with the eagle
                  overlay


                  On 1/1/08, Roy Fisher <rfisher003@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
                  > scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf
                  > Of Mark Landry
                  > Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 10:39 AM
                  > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] BSA Copyright
                  >
                  > > Simply because National has a policy of requiring permission for use of
                  > > the marks, it does not follow automatically that a charge will be
                  > imposed.
                  > > And I do not see national filing suit against a Cub Scout pack whose
                  > pack
                  > > shirt has a BSA logo.
                  >
                  > But it very well MIGHT go after the t-shirt shop that produced them.
                  >
                  > > And the fleur-de-lis is already in the public domain, so
                  > > National can not regulate the use of that logo, unless used in
                  > conjunction
                  > > with another registered mark.
                  >
                  > The question then is where is the line? If you use the fleur-de-lis over
                  > Troop 123 does that become a registered mark? If you just use Troop 123 is
                  > that a registered mark?
                  >
                  > I understand that National has relaxed their position somewhat and is not
                  > interested in those producers that only supply t-shirts or patches or
                  > whatever locally (within one Council) just those with a wider net, i.e.
                  > more
                  > revenue.
                  >
                  > But what about the local bakery in a regional/national grocery chain that
                  > decorates a cake for an Eagle Court of Honor and uses the Eagle Badge? I
                  > think that this is likely to be honored in the breach more than the
                  > application.
                  >
                  > YiS
                  >
                  > Roy Fisher
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Sean Scott
                  ClassB.com is a licensed BSA vendor according to BSA s licensing web site, so actually they can. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 1, 2008
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                    ClassB.com is a licensed BSA vendor according to BSA's licensing web
                    site, so actually they can.

                    On Jan 1, 2008, at 1:36 PM, eagle9252 wrote:

                    > classb can make the fleur-de-lis scout shirts but not with the eagle
                    > overlay



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • eagle9252
                    just a quote from our DE but if soi wonder would the rice f the shirts go up ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 1, 2008
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                      just a quote from our DE

                      but if soi wonder would the rice f the shirts go up


                      On 1/1/08, Sean Scott <sscott@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > ClassB.com is a licensed BSA vendor according to BSA's licensing web
                      > site, so actually they can.
                      >
                      > On Jan 1, 2008, at 1:36 PM, eagle9252 wrote:
                      >
                      > > classb can make the fleur-de-lis scout shirts but not with the eagle
                      > > overlay
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Stephen Gallagher
                      You are correct wtih most of what you have written! the copy right laws are very stringent, however a gift and no profit are where you need to be corrected.
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jan 3, 2008
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                        You are correct wtih most of what you have written! the copy right laws are very stringent, however a gift and no profit are where you need to be corrected. there is nothing stopping the creation and gifting of an item that falls under the copyright laws. This is considered freedom of speech. however if you charge in any way for the item then they can take all you have.

                        Stephen Gallagher
                        Scoutmaster: T-164
                        Portsmouth NH

                        Owner: Lovewell Mountain Regalia
                        www.lovewellmtn.com

                        Not yet licensed but working on it!

                        Don Wilson <don-wilson@...> wrote:
                        Actually, it is worse than that. Now items that have any part of the
                        BSA logo, words or word grouping protected by Copywrite, may be
                        purchased only only from an authorized vendor, and most councils are
                        establishing a policy that purchase of all items must go through the
                        council office. Yep, that means patches, too.

                        If you carry this far enough, one could not design a "T" shirt on
                        their personal computer that includes any of the items protected by
                        copywrite, and give the shirts away without incurring stiff
                        penalties. Remember the trouble that crafters had when they used
                        Mickey Mouse and Tweetie Bird on shirts?

                        Don Wilson--
                        "There are only four kinds of people in the world:
                        Those who have been caregivers;
                        Those who are currently caregivers;
                        Those who will be caregivers; and
                        Those who will need caregivers."
                        Rosalynn Carter






                        ---------------------------------
                        Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Stephen Gallagher
                        They can only reproduce with the eagle if that was in tehir marketing plan they forwarded with their licensing application. Licensure with BSA is not for
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jan 3, 2008
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                          They can only reproduce with the eagle if that was in tehir marketing plan they forwarded with their licensing application. Licensure with BSA is not for everything you have to have a seperate plan for what you are going to embellish!

                          The process sucks Trust me.

                          Stephen Gallagher
                          www.lovewellmtn.com

                          Sean Scott <sscott@...> wrote:
                          ClassB.com is a licensed BSA vendor according to BSA's licensing web
                          site, so actually they can.

                          On Jan 1, 2008, at 1:36 PM, eagle9252 wrote:

                          > classb can make the fleur-de-lis scout shirts but not with the eagle
                          > overlay

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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