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Re: [Scouter_T] Re: Quagmire/Webelos at Camporee, etc...

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  • Brant Lippincott
    Boy, don t check my mail for a couple of days and a huge storm brews up.... I have a couple of fairly strong opinions on this subject and feel that I have the
    Message 1 of 20 , Nov 20, 2007
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      Boy, don't check my mail for a couple of days and a huge storm brews up....

      I have a couple of fairly strong opinions on this subject and feel that I have the BSA background on my side for a lot of this....

      I think that if you read all the posts, they basically say what the Outdoor guidelines says...

      "Webelos dens are encouraged to visit Boy Scout camporees and Klondike derbies. The purpose of the visit should be for the boys to look ahead with anticipation to their future as Boy Scouts and observe troops they might join. Webelos Scouts should not compete or participate in activities designed for Boy Scouts. Webelos Scouts should not spend the night at the event if the program is Boy Scout-based. A separate Webelos-only event known as a Webelos-Ree should be provided by the council or District." (from pub 13-631)

      As to proper ratios... I wish I had my G2SS here (I don't and can't access the BSA site from work - long story)... But the last time I looked for it, what it said was something to this effect... "... each Webelos is to be under the supervision of an adult." This is NOT a one-to-one ratio. Old versions mentioned various levels. This was explained to me (by a DE) that each Webelos was to be under one adult, but that each adult could be responsible for several boys. The Webelos Den Leader should be responsible ONLY for his own son.

      BALOO is REQUIRED for taking a pack camping. It asks on the Tour permit. I believe that rangers at scout camps have the authority to ask a pack at check-in WHO the person is and to see their card.

      Asto things updated... It is up to us as trainers.to KNOW the current info. For example, the LST class for Tigers is FULL of OLD info.

      The focus of the three trainings is different:
      BALOO - taking the pack camping
      OWL - taking a WEBELOS den camping
      IOLS - covers the outdoor skills needed to get a boy to First Class

      Personal note: I think there are more similarities between BALOO & OWL. (I know what the BALOO syllabus says.) We have been doing this with success for a couple of years. We cover many topics together (Equipment, cooking, first aid, etc.) and ALL the program stuff separately. I'm not sure how to integrate & separate the OWL and IOLS classes.

      For the Boys,
      Brant Lippincott
      Cub Training Chair
      Great Plains District


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Peter Mullaney
      Connie et al, The main point of my P.S. (other than assuaging my ego - i.e. I know that ;-) was the emphasis that Pack camping requires a trained person
      Message 2 of 20 , Nov 20, 2007
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        Connie et al,

        The main point of my "P.S." (other than assuaging my ego - i.e. 'I know
        that' ;-) was the emphasis that Pack camping requires a trained person but
        WEBELOS camping does not require ANY training. I know people that are
        offended by this policy.
        Happy Thanksgiving to All,
        Pete M.
        (no harm, no foul!)

        On 11/20/07, Connie Knie <cknie23100@...> wrote:
        >
        > PS. I don't know what folks know or don't so please don't get offended or
        > defensive if someone states something you know. No offense is
        > meant..........this is where email fails us........
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Connie Knie
        Don t you mean No harm no Fowl? ..........sorry could not resist............. Not too sure why folks should be upset just because National is finally making
        Message 3 of 20 , Nov 20, 2007
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          Don't you mean "No harm no Fowl?"..........sorry could not resist.............

          Not too sure why folks should be upset just because National is finally making some training mandatory..........oh well never gonna make everyone happy.............

          Have a great holiday...........

          Peter Mullaney <mullaney@...> wrote:
          Connie et al,

          The main point of my "P.S." (other than assuaging my ego - i.e. 'I know
          that' ;-) was the emphasis that Pack camping requires a trained person but
          WEBELOS camping does not require ANY training. I know people that are
          offended by this policy.
          Happy Thanksgiving to All,
          Pete M.
          (no harm, no foul!)



          connie

          SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Peter Mullaney
          The offense was more a case of the other training not being mandatory. Pete M. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Message 4 of 20 , Nov 20, 2007
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            The offense was more a case of the other training not being mandatory.
            Pete M.

            On 11/20/07, Connie Knie <cknie23100@...> wrote:
            >
            > Don't you mean "No harm no Fowl?"..........sorry could not
            > resist.............
            >
            > Not too sure why folks should be upset just because National is finally
            > making some training mandatory..........oh well never gonna make everyone
            > happy.............
            >
            > Have a great holiday...........
            >
            > Peter Mullaney <mullaney@... <mullaney%40gmail.com>> wrote:
            > Connie et al,
            >
            > The main point of my "P.S." (other than assuaging my ego - i.e. 'I know
            > that' ;-) was the emphasis that Pack camping requires a trained person but
            > WEBELOS camping does not require ANY training. I know people that are
            > offended by this policy.
            > Happy Thanksgiving to All,
            > Pete M.
            > (no harm, no foul!)
            >
            > connie
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Richard Damon
            I can actually see some of the reasoning to require training for Pack campout but not Webelos campouts. A pack campout could easily have 25-30 boys grade 1st
            Message 5 of 20 , Nov 20, 2007
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              I can actually see some of the reasoning to require training for Pack
              campout but not Webelos campouts. A pack campout could easily have 25-30
              boys grade 1st through 5th, plus their parents and possibly siblings. Some
              training on this size event makes sense, and not all the rules are
              immediately obvious (but this happens with lots of thing in the BSA ;)



              A Webelos Den campout has probably 6-8 boys, 4th to 5th grade (and likely
              all the same grade), each with an adult responsible to supervise them. This
              is a lot more manageable.



              I agree, it would be nice if everyone was able to take all the training that
              would be useful, but I am realistic in knowing it isn't going to happen.



              Richard Damon

              Pack Trainer, Pack 306

              Scout Master Troop 302

              Arlington MA

              District Training Chair, Sons of Liberty District, Boston Minuteman Council

              I used to be a fox (NE-I-209) and a good old staffer too (NE-I-234,
              NE-I-244)

              | >>>-------------------> |



              Peter Mullaney <mullaney@... <mailto:mullaney%40gmail.com> > wrote:
              Connie et al,

              The main point of my "P.S." (other than assuaging my ego - i.e. 'I know
              that' ;-) was the emphasis that Pack camping requires a trained person but
              WEBELOS camping does not require ANY training. I know people that are
              offended by this policy.
              Happy Thanksgiving to All,
              Pete M.
              (no harm, no foul!)

              connie

              SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Connie Knie
              I couldn t agree more that BALOO being mandatory is a good thing. With Webelos at least you have a program pretty set as far as activity pins and such and
              Message 6 of 20 , Nov 21, 2007
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                I couldn't agree more that BALOO being mandatory is a good thing. With Webelos at least you have a program pretty set as far as activity pins and such and hopefully the leader has been around long enough to make it work out well.........

                Throw those siblings and totally uneducated parents in there and that is a recipe for disaster.......LOL

                I am really torn about wether training needs to be mandatory...........when I became a GSUSA leader I was shocked by all of the training that is demanded. They might go a bit overboard, but they are actually toning it down a bit.

                I mean just because you take it, does not mean you will use it.................

                Richard Damon <richard@...> wrote:
                I can actually see some of the reasoning to require training for Pack
                campout but not Webelos campouts. A pack campout could easily have 25-30
                boys grade 1st through 5th, plus their parents and possibly siblings.

                A Webelos Den campout has probably 6-8 boys, 4th to 5th grade (and likely
                all the same grade), each with an adult responsible to supervise them. This
                is a lot more manageable.






                connie

                SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Gerry Moon
                Richard One Fox/Staffer to another - I understand your realistic approach to training (internally, at least) but in saying that, I hope that you don t convey
                Message 7 of 20 , Nov 21, 2007
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                  Richard

                  One Fox/Staffer to another - I understand your "realistic" approach
                  to training (internally, at least) but in saying that, I hope that
                  you don't convey that perspective to your people - I promote
                  training at every opportunity to every leader and resist excuses as
                  to why it can't be done. The last thing the leader population needs
                  is a training chair that justifies not having 100% trained leaders
                  as being an impossible goal. Yes, the challenge is daunting, but I
                  resist calling it unsurmountable. The resisters just need a little
                  more convincing, that's all. I understand that for a handful, by the
                  time I "sell the car" their boy has aged out of the program. Never
                  say never.

                  Gerry Moon
                  Orlando. FL

                  --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Damon" <richard@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > I can actually see some of the reasoning to require training for
                  Pack
                  > campout but not Webelos campouts. A pack campout could easily have
                  25-30
                  > boys grade 1st through 5th, plus their parents and possibly
                  siblings. Some
                  > training on this size event makes sense, and not all the rules are
                  > immediately obvious (but this happens with lots of thing in the
                  BSA ;)
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > A Webelos Den campout has probably 6-8 boys, 4th to 5th grade
                  (and likely
                  > all the same grade), each with an adult responsible to supervise
                  them. This
                  > is a lot more manageable.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I agree, it would be nice if everyone was able to take all the
                  training that
                  > would be useful, but I am realistic in knowing it isn't going to
                  happen.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Richard Damon
                  >
                  > Pack Trainer, Pack 306
                  >
                  > Scout Master Troop 302
                  >
                  > Arlington MA
                  >
                  > District Training Chair, Sons of Liberty District, Boston
                  Minuteman Council
                  >
                  > I used to be a fox (NE-I-209) and a good old staffer too (NE-I-234,
                  > NE-I-244)
                  >
                  > | >>>-------------------> |
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Peter Mullaney <mullaney@... <mailto:mullaney%40gmail.com> > wrote:
                  > Connie et al,
                  >
                  > The main point of my "P.S." (other than assuaging my ego - i.e. 'I
                  know
                  > that' ;-) was the emphasis that Pack camping requires a trained
                  person but
                  > WEBELOS camping does not require ANY training. I know people that
                  are
                  > offended by this policy.
                  > Happy Thanksgiving to All,
                  > Pete M.
                  > (no harm, no foul!)
                  >
                  > connie
                  >
                  > SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Richard Damon
                  Yes, I encourage people to take as much training as possible. What I won t do is say they NEED to take something to do something that isn t required, I will
                  Message 8 of 20 , Nov 21, 2007
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                    Yes, I encourage people to take as much training as possible. What I won't
                    do is say they NEED to take something to do something that isn't required, I
                    will still talk it up an encourage them to go. If you straight talk to them,
                    they will trust you.



                    Richard Damon

                    Pack Trainer, Pack 306

                    Scout Master Troop 302

                    Arlington MA

                    District Training Chair, Sons of Liberty District, Boston Minuteman Council

                    I used to be a fox (NE-I-209) and a good old staffer too (NE-I-234,
                    NE-I-244)

                    | >>>-------------------> |







                    From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                    Of Gerry Moon
                    Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2007 10:02 AM
                    To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: Quagmire



                    Richard

                    One Fox/Staffer to another - I understand your "realistic" approach
                    to training (internally, at least) but in saying that, I hope that
                    you don't convey that perspective to your people - I promote
                    training at every opportunity to every leader and resist excuses as
                    to why it can't be done. The last thing the leader population needs
                    is a training chair that justifies not having 100% trained leaders
                    as being an impossible goal. Yes, the challenge is daunting, but I
                    resist calling it unsurmountable. The resisters just need a little
                    more convincing, that's all. I understand that for a handful, by the
                    time I "sell the car" their boy has aged out of the program. Never
                    say never.

                    Gerry Moon
                    Orlando. FL

                    --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> ,
                    "Richard Damon" <richard@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > I can actually see some of the reasoning to require training for
                    Pack
                    > campout but not Webelos campouts. A pack campout could easily have
                    25-30
                    > boys grade 1st through 5th, plus their parents and possibly
                    siblings. Some
                    > training on this size event makes sense, and not all the rules are
                    > immediately obvious (but this happens with lots of thing in the
                    BSA ;)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > A Webelos Den campout has probably 6-8 boys, 4th to 5th grade
                    (and likely
                    > all the same grade), each with an adult responsible to supervise
                    them. This
                    > is a lot more manageable.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I agree, it would be nice if everyone was able to take all the
                    training that
                    > would be useful, but I am realistic in knowing it isn't going to
                    happen.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Richard Damon
                    >
                    > Pack Trainer, Pack 306
                    >
                    > Scout Master Troop 302
                    >
                    > Arlington MA
                    >
                    > District Training Chair, Sons of Liberty District, Boston
                    Minuteman Council
                    >
                    > I used to be a fox (NE-I-209) and a good old staffer too (NE-I-234,
                    > NE-I-244)
                    >
                    > | >>>-------------------> |
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Peter Mullaney <mullaney@... <mailto:mullaney%40gmail.com> > wrote:
                    > Connie et al,
                    >
                    > The main point of my "P.S." (other than assuaging my ego - i.e. 'I
                    know
                    > that' ;-) was the emphasis that Pack camping requires a trained
                    person but
                    > WEBELOS camping does not require ANY training. I know people that
                    are
                    > offended by this policy.
                    > Happy Thanksgiving to All,
                    > Pete M.
                    > (no harm, no foul!)
                    >
                    > connie
                    >
                    > SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • ed5870@aol.com
                    In a message dated 11/20/2007 2:32:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, cknie23100@sbcglobal.net writes: I have not taught at OWLT for a couple of seasons but the
                    Message 9 of 20 , Nov 21, 2007
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                      In a message dated 11/20/2007 2:32:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                      cknie23100@... writes:

                      I have not taught at OWLT for a couple of seasons but the more I think of it
                      the more I believe we combined parts of ours as well........I h


                      We teach it as a stand alone. I feel it runs much smoother that way.



                      **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
                      products.
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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Connie Knie
                      I believe it does too. Ours is more from a lack of staff.................... ed5870@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 11/20/2007 2:32:55 P.M. Eastern Standard
                      Message 10 of 20 , Nov 22, 2007
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                        I believe it does too. Ours is more from a lack of staff....................

                        ed5870@... wrote:
                        In a message dated 11/20/2007 2:32:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                        cknie23100@... writes:

                        I have not taught at OWLT for a couple of seasons but the more I think of it
                        the more I believe we combined parts of ours as well........I h


                        We teach it as a stand alone. I feel it runs much smoother that way.



                        **************************************Check out AOL's list of 2007's hottest
                        products.
                        (http://money.aol.com/special/hot-products-2007?NCID=aoltop00030000000001)


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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                        connie

                        SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

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