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RE: [Scouter_T] re: cub scout training

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  • Sandra Martens
    I figure if it comes out this spring, we ll be lucky to see and use it next fall. My council is very slow at getting things- I usually have to prod them
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 7, 2007
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      I figure if it comes out this spring, we'll be lucky to see and use it next fall. My council is very slow at getting things- I usually have to prod them because they don't even know about it.

      Sandy OWL

      Margo Mead <meadclan@...> wrote:
      Seems kind of silly that they devoted so much time to it in the September
      Podcast, acting like it was out and already being used, and it really
      wasn't? I'm excited about it, I just wish they wouldn't have teased us like
      that!

      Margo

      From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
      Of Sandra Martens
      Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2007 5:09 PM
      To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] re: cub scout training

      talked with someone from Natl Cub Scout training just a few days ago about
      something else and he said it's ready to launch and should be out this
      spring. This is what he emailed me about it.
      We have a new leader specific training program that is about to launch. The
      revised leader specific training has been built around a significant amount
      of research from new and experienced leaders. Once your council training
      team has the opportunity to present the new training, I believe you will
      agree that the task specific training will better prepare all Cub Scout
      volunteers to better do their job on a weekly ands monthly basis.

      Sandy OWL

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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    • Dan Hammond, Sr.
      Faun wrote in part: We have recommended for quite a few years now that leaders take their cub specific training before New Leader Essentials. Too many
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 8, 2007
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        Faun wrote in part:
        <snip>"We have recommended for quite a few years now that leaders take their
        cub specific training before New Leader Essentials. Too many leaders
        were leaving the Essentials classes (after arranging for babysitters,
        taking time from work, etc) confused and ill-equipped for their dens.
        While Essentials has some good "stuff" that covers the entire
        scouting program, all that knowledge is overwhelming to the new to
        Scouting leader who just wants to plan the next meeting!"

        Faun
        Long Island, NY

        If new leaders actually take fast start training on the national e-learning site before they come for classroom training, they will receive a very good overview of how to run a meeting. Unlike old versions of Fast Start, the one that BSA has out there now is actually useful.


        Daniel D. Hammond, Sr. MA(HRD)
        Leavenworth, KS, Army Major(Ret), Overtrained Scout Leader,
        Kaw District Training Chairman, NRA Life Member
        CM P3001, SM T366
        |<--W-W-W--<<<| Mic-O-Say HW "Big Quick Steel"
        I Used to be an Owl... (W-CS-44)
        And a good old staffer too (C-34-04) (C-38-06)

        Cheerful Service; because it's the right thing to do

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      • Fred Goodwin, CMA
        ... I ve heard this complaint re: NLE many times. I think its a matter of managing expectations. As a NLE instructor, I make it a point to tell my new
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 8, 2007
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          > Posted by: "Faun Witz Guarino '71" fguarino@...
          > Date: Wed Nov 7, 2007 3:47 pm ((PST))
          >
          > We have recommended for quite a few years now that leaders take
          > their cub specific training before New Leader Essentials. Too many
          > leaders were leaving the Essentials classes (after arranging for
          > babysitters, taking time from work, etc) confused and ill-equipped
          > for their dens.

          I've heard this complaint re: NLE many times. I think its a matter of
          managing expectations. As a NLE instructor, I make it a point to tell
          my new trainees that the purpose of NLE is to give an overview of the
          entire program, and how the various pieces fit together.

          I remind them that the purpose of NLE is *not* to teach them how to run
          a den meeting, pack meeting, or committee meeting. They should've
          learned that by watching the Fast Start Videos (or doing Fast Start
          online).

          Then the clincher: I ask them how many have actually done the Fast
          Start training for their position, and invariably, few, if any, hands
          go up. I lay that squarely on the shoulders of the pack leadership.
          My Council does not make Fast Start a pre-requisite for
          position-specific training, and even if we did, I doubt that would
          change anything.

          As others have suggested, maybe we should start our position-specific
          training by showing the Fast Start video relevant for each position --
          that's a good idea, and one I'll try the next time I'm called upon to
          lead a position-specifc session.

          Now that National has allegedly approved reversing the sequence of NLE
          and position-specific, I wonder how many leaders will skip NLE thinking
          they've heard everything they need to do their job?

          Fred Goodwin
          NLE instructor and former district training chair
        • Jim Thompson
          For what it s worth, here s what the October Scouting magazine says on p. 29: (The Cub Scout Division now recommends that New Leader Essentials take place
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 8, 2007
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            For what it's worth, here's what the October "Scouting" magazine says
            on p. 29:
            "(The Cub Scout Division now recommends that New Leader Essentials
            take place after Leader Specific Training.)"
            That's it. No "official" announcement, just a parenthetical aside
            more or less buried in a story about training.
            Jim Thompson
            Albuquerque, NM


            We have recommended for quite a few years now that leaders take their
            cub specific training before New Leader Essentials. Too many leaders
            were leaving the Essentials classes (after arranging for babysitters,
            taking time from work, etc) confused and ill-equipped for their dens.
            While Essentials has some good "stuff" that covers the entire
            scouting program, all that knowledge is overwhelming to the new to
            Scouting leader who just wants to plan the next meeting!

            Faun

            Long Island, NY





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Sandra Martens
            the official will probably come out with the new training syllabus in the spring. Since the change in sequence goes along with the syllabus it only makes
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 8, 2007
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              the "official" will probably come out with the new training syllabus in the spring. Since the change in sequence goes along with the syllabus it only makes sense to wait.

              Sandy OWL

              Jim Thompson <jimthompsn@...> wrote:
              For what it's worth, here's what the October "Scouting" magazine says
              on p. 29:
              "(The Cub Scout Division now recommends that New Leader Essentials
              take place after Leader Specific Training.)"
              That's it. No "official" announcement, just a parenthetical aside
              more or less buried in a story about training.
              Jim Thompson
              Albuquerque, NM

              We have recommended for quite a few years now that leaders take their
              cub specific training before New Leader Essentials. Too many leaders
              were leaving the Essentials classes (after arranging for babysitters,
              taking time from work, etc) confused and ill-equipped for their dens.
              While Essentials has some good "stuff" that covers the entire
              scouting program, all that knowledge is overwhelming to the new to
              Scouting leader who just wants to plan the next meeting!

              Faun

              Long Island, NY

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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            • bill smith
              A couple problems here: I totally agree with Dan H that the current Fast Start for den leaders is much superior to anything we have had in the past, but it
              Message 6 of 23 , Nov 8, 2007
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                A couple problems here:
                I totally agree with Dan H that the current Fast Start for
                den leaders is much superior to anything we have had in
                the past, but it still doesn't do a good enough job to be a
                stand alone preparation for a new leader to lead den meetings.

                Many den leaders first learn of Fast Start when they attend
                NLE or CLS. Too late! We are not that efficient at
                communicating and I can't imagine that we ever will be,
                even considering the high pay rates for our volunteers.

                Last June I talked to a Director of Field Services who
                related his observations of a focus group consisting of
                first year den leaders. The consensus of the group was
                that even CLS didn't prepare them sufficiently. It was only
                after they attended Pow Wow that they finally began
                to understand their jobs. I have great hopes for the
                new training whenever it shows up.

                Leading a den is one of the toughest jobs in all of Scouting.
                We should never underestimate how much preparation,
                support and help that this job needs to succeed.

                bill smith
                tampa fl

                Fred Goodwin, CMA wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                > I've heard this complaint re: NLE many times. I think its a matter of
                > managing expectations. As a NLE instructor, I make it a point to tell
                > my new trainees that the purpose of NLE is to give an overview of the
                > entire program, and how the various pieces fit together.
                >
                > ,_._,___


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Sandra Martens
                here here! i agree. i just finished completing a resource cd for a pow wow/rendezvous on Saturday. As i finished sections I emailed them to the respective
                Message 7 of 23 , Nov 8, 2007
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                  here here! i agree.

                  i just finished completing a resource cd for a pow wow/rendezvous on Saturday. As i finished sections I emailed them to the respective instructors to check over. One of them, CS ceremonies, emailed back and said thanks for adding all the ceremonies and stuff. he forgot how hard it is to be new and how new leaders are looking for anything there is out there to help them. maybe more of us old scouters need to remember that.(sorry about the bad capitalization- my key keeps getting stuck and i'm too lazy to back track and fix it)

                  Sandy OWL



                  bill smith <wt492@...> wrote:
                  A couple problems here:
                  I totally agree with Dan H that the current Fast Start for
                  den leaders is much superior to anything we have had in
                  the past, but it still doesn't do a good enough job to be a
                  stand alone preparation for a new leader to lead den meetings.

                  Many den leaders first learn of Fast Start when they attend
                  NLE or CLS. Too late! We are not that efficient at
                  communicating and I can't imagine that we ever will be,
                  even considering the high pay rates for our volunteers.

                  Last June I talked to a Director of Field Services who
                  related his observations of a focus group consisting of
                  first year den leaders. The consensus of the group was
                  that even CLS didn't prepare them sufficiently. It was only
                  after they attended Pow Wow that they finally began
                  to understand their jobs. I have great hopes for the
                  new training whenever it shows up.

                  Leading a den is one of the toughest jobs in all of Scouting.
                  We should never underestimate how much preparation,
                  support and help that this job needs to succeed.

                  bill smith
                  tampa fl

                  Fred Goodwin, CMA wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > I've heard this complaint re: NLE many times. I think its a matter of
                  > managing expectations. As a NLE instructor, I make it a point to tell
                  > my new trainees that the purpose of NLE is to give an overview of the
                  > entire program, and how the various pieces fit together.
                  >
                  > ,_._,___

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Marian McQuaid
                  Hey Sandy, How much will it cost to get a copy of your CD? Where do I send a check? Marian Boston Minuteman Council ... From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                  Message 8 of 23 , Nov 9, 2007
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                    Hey Sandy,
                    How much will it cost to get a copy of your CD? Where do I send a check?

                    Marian
                    Boston Minuteman Council

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com]On
                    Behalf Of Sandra Martens
                    Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 9:22 PM
                    To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: cub scout training


                    here here! i agree.

                    i just finished completing a resource cd for a pow wow/rendezvous on
                    Saturday. As i finished sections I emailed them to the respective
                    instructors to check over. One of them, CS ceremonies, emailed back and said
                    thanks for adding all the ceremonies and stuff. he forgot how hard it is to
                    be new and how new leaders are looking for anything there is out there to
                    help them. maybe more of us old scouters need to remember that.(sorry
                    about the bad capitalization- my key keeps getting stuck and i'm too lazy to
                    back track and fix it)

                    Sandy OWL



                    bill smith <wt492@...> wrote:
                    A couple problems here:
                    I totally agree with Dan H that the current Fast Start for
                    den leaders is much superior to anything we have had in
                    the past, but it still doesn't do a good enough job to be a
                    stand alone preparation for a new leader to lead den meetings.

                    Many den leaders first learn of Fast Start when they attend
                    NLE or CLS. Too late! We are not that efficient at
                    communicating and I can't imagine that we ever will be,
                    even considering the high pay rates for our volunteers.

                    Last June I talked to a Director of Field Services who
                    related his observations of a focus group consisting of
                    first year den leaders. The consensus of the group was
                    that even CLS didn't prepare them sufficiently. It was only
                    after they attended Pow Wow that they finally began
                    to understand their jobs. I have great hopes for the
                    new training whenever it shows up.

                    Leading a den is one of the toughest jobs in all of Scouting.
                    We should never underestimate how much preparation,
                    support and help that this job needs to succeed.

                    bill smith
                    tampa fl

                    Fred Goodwin, CMA wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I've heard this complaint re: NLE many times. I think its a matter of
                    > managing expectations. As a NLE instructor, I make it a point to tell
                    > my new trainees that the purpose of NLE is to give an overview of the
                    > entire program, and how the various pieces fit together.
                    >
                    > ,_._,___

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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                  • Richard Damon
                    Sandy, I am working on a similar project for next weekend and would LOVE to get some of your ideas. Any way you could email some of this to me (or links of the
                    Message 9 of 23 , Nov 9, 2007
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                      Sandy,

                      I am working on a similar project for next weekend and would LOVE to get
                      some of your ideas. Any way you could email some of this to me (or links of
                      the stuff is online). I have a big mail box so don't worry about that.



                      Richard Damon

                      Pack Trainer, Pack 306

                      Scout Master Troop 302

                      Arlington MA

                      District Training Chair, Sons of Liberty District, Boston Minuteman Council

                      I used to be a fox (NE-I-209) and a good old staffer too (NE-I-234,
                      NE-I-244)

                      | >>>-------------------> |



                      From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                      Of Sandra Martens
                      Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 9:22 PM
                      To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: cub scout training



                      here here! i agree.

                      i just finished completing a resource cd for a pow wow/rendezvous on
                      Saturday. As i finished sections I emailed them to the respective
                      instructors to check over. One of them, CS ceremonies, emailed back and said
                      thanks for adding all the ceremonies and stuff. he forgot how hard it is to
                      be new and how new leaders are looking for anything there is out there to
                      help them. maybe more of us old scouters need to remember that.(sorry about
                      the bad capitalization- my key keeps getting stuck and i'm too lazy to back
                      track and fix it)

                      Sandy OWL



                      bill smith <wt492@... <mailto:wt492%40wtsmith.com> > wrote:
                      A couple problems here:
                      I totally agree with Dan H that the current Fast Start for
                      den leaders is much superior to anything we have had in
                      the past, but it still doesn't do a good enough job to be a
                      stand alone preparation for a new leader to lead den meetings.

                      Many den leaders first learn of Fast Start when they attend
                      NLE or CLS. Too late! We are not that efficient at
                      communicating and I can't imagine that we ever will be,
                      even considering the high pay rates for our volunteers.

                      Last June I talked to a Director of Field Services who
                      related his observations of a focus group consisting of
                      first year den leaders. The consensus of the group was
                      that even CLS didn't prepare them sufficiently. It was only
                      after they attended Pow Wow that they finally began
                      to understand their jobs. I have great hopes for the
                      new training whenever it shows up.

                      Leading a den is one of the toughest jobs in all of Scouting.
                      We should never underestimate how much preparation,
                      support and help that this job needs to succeed.

                      bill smith
                      tampa fl

                      Fred Goodwin, CMA wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > I've heard this complaint re: NLE many times. I think its a matter of
                      > managing expectations. As a NLE instructor, I make it a point to tell
                      > my new trainees that the purpose of NLE is to give an overview of the
                      > entire program, and how the various pieces fit together.
                      >
                      > ,_._,___

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      __________________________________________________
                      Do You Yahoo!?
                      Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Sandra Martens
                      Richard. the cd is 230 MB, 107 folders, and 833 files. It would take forever to email to you. below are the sessions I cover. If there are specific ones,
                      Message 10 of 23 , Nov 9, 2007
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                        Richard. the cd is 230 MB, 107 folders, and 833 files. It would take forever to email to you. below are the sessions I cover. If there are specific ones, email me out of group and ask for them. I'll try to get them to you fast.
                        CUB SCOUT COURSES A Good Turn Daily Bear Den Planning Beyond the Badge Blue & Gold Banquet Cooking for Cubs NEW Crafts Creative Campfires Cub Camping Adventures Cub Ceremonies Cub Scout Control Derby Days Dog Days of Summer Duty to God NEW Flag Etiquette Games Galore Leatherwork Pack Finances NEW Pack Meeting in Action Pack Meeting Programs NEW Scout Safety Share the Cub Adventure Shenanigans Slides and Doodles Tiger Cub Trail Tying It All Up Walking Sticks WeBeLoS Dutch Oven Cooking NEW WeBeLoS - Community WeBeLoS - Mental Skills WeBeLoS - Outdoor WeBeLoS - Physical Skills WeBeLoS - Technology Webelos - The 18 Month Plan NEW Webelos Overnighter NEW Webelos to Scout Transition Wolf Den Planning Woodworking BOY SCOUT COURSES "To Help Other People at all Times"
                        Backpacking on a Budget Basic Knots NEW Beyond the Badge - Boy Scouts Boy Scout Ceremonies Camp - Wisconsin Dutch Oven Cooking NEW Duty to God NEW Flag Etiquette Geocaching High Adventure Overview NEW Lashings NEW Order of the Arrow Orienteering Patrol Method Project First Class NEW Scout Cooking Scout Safety Scoutmaster Conference / BOR Share the Boy Scout Adventure The Senior Patrol Leader Trail to Eagle Troop Calendar Planning Unscoutlike Behavior Winter Camping Wisconsin Waterways NEW

                        Sandy OWL


                        Richard Damon <richard@...> wrote:
                        Sandy,

                        I am working on a similar project for next weekend and would LOVE to get
                        some of your ideas. Any way you could email some of this to me (or links of
                        the stuff is online). I have a big mail box so don't worry about that.

                        Richard Damon

                        Pack Trainer, Pack 306

                        Scout Master Troop 302

                        Arlington MA

                        District Training Chair, Sons of Liberty District, Boston Minuteman Council

                        I used to be a fox (NE-I-209) and a good old staffer too (NE-I-234,
                        NE-I-244)

                        | >>>-------------------> |

                        From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                        Of Sandra Martens
                        Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 9:22 PM
                        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: cub scout training

                        here here! i agree.

                        i just finished completing a resource cd for a pow wow/rendezvous on
                        Saturday. As i finished sections I emailed them to the respective
                        instructors to check over. One of them, CS ceremonies, emailed back and said
                        thanks for adding all the ceremonies and stuff. he forgot how hard it is to
                        be new and how new leaders are looking for anything there is out there to
                        help them. maybe more of us old scouters need to remember that.(sorry about
                        the bad capitalization- my key keeps getting stuck and i'm too lazy to back
                        track and fix it)

                        Sandy OWL

                        bill smith <wt492@... <mailto:wt492%40wtsmith.com> > wrote:
                        A couple problems here:
                        I totally agree with Dan H that the current Fast Start for
                        den leaders is much superior to anything we have had in
                        the past, but it still doesn't do a good enough job to be a
                        stand alone preparation for a new leader to lead den meetings.

                        Many den leaders first learn of Fast Start when they attend
                        NLE or CLS. Too late! We are not that efficient at
                        communicating and I can't imagine that we ever will be,
                        even considering the high pay rates for our volunteers.

                        Last June I talked to a Director of Field Services who
                        related his observations of a focus group consisting of
                        first year den leaders. The consensus of the group was
                        that even CLS didn't prepare them sufficiently. It was only
                        after they attended Pow Wow that they finally began
                        to understand their jobs. I have great hopes for the
                        new training whenever it shows up.

                        Leading a den is one of the toughest jobs in all of Scouting.
                        We should never underestimate how much preparation,
                        support and help that this job needs to succeed.

                        bill smith
                        tampa fl

                        Fred Goodwin, CMA wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I've heard this complaint re: NLE many times. I think its a matter of
                        > managing expectations. As a NLE instructor, I make it a point to tell
                        > my new trainees that the purpose of NLE is to give an overview of the
                        > entire program, and how the various pieces fit together.
                        >
                        > ,_._,___

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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                      • JNDunnMN@aol.com
                        ... Could this be because all the useful stuff about games and songs and crafts that used to be in CS Leader Basic Training was pulled out, and made
                        Message 11 of 23 , Nov 9, 2007
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                          >It was only
                          >after they attended Pow Wow that they finally began
                          >to understand their jobs. I have great hopes for the
                          >new training whenever it shows up.

                          Could this be because all the useful stuff about games and songs and crafts that used to be in CS Leader Basic Training was pulled out, and made supplemental ;-0

                          Hopefully, some of that stuff has made its way back into the syllabus.

                          YiS,
                          Jamie Niss Dunn
                          Pack Trainer, Pack 512
                          Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
                          Cub Scout Training Coordinator
                          Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner
                          3 Rivers District




                          ________________________________________________________________________
                          Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • bill smith
                          ... Probably true. Of course, a lot of that should be done also at Roundtables but at the last half dozen RT I attended (in different districts and councils)
                          Message 12 of 23 , Nov 9, 2007
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                            Jamie Niss Dunn wrote:
                            >
                            > Could this be because all the useful stuff about games and songs and
                            > crafts that used to be in CS Leader Basic Training was pulled out, and
                            > made supplemental ;-0
                            >
                            Probably true. Of course, a lot of that should be done also
                            at Roundtables but at the last half dozen RT I attended (in
                            different districts and councils) only one had songs and
                            none had games. Maybe Pow Wows and UofS are the
                            last vestiges of good CS programming.

                            > Hopefully, some of that stuff has made its way back into the syllabus.
                            >
                            I had the opportunity to meet and talk a bit with Ted Rohling
                            who is writing the new manual. He seems to have excellent
                            credentials and he assured us that it will be more interactive
                            and program-oriented. However it may still be a two-hour
                            training session and that limits how much help a new den leader
                            can get.

                            bill smith
                            tampa



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Gerry Moon
                            Getting the work out about Fast Start is part of the Pack Trainer s job. Problem that I see (and I m a Pack Trainer) is that the role in and of itself is not
                            Message 13 of 23 , Nov 9, 2007
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                              Getting the work out about Fast Start is part of the Pack Trainer's
                              job. Problem that I see (and I'm a Pack Trainer) is that the role in
                              and of itself is not well understood - some folks I talk to think
                              that the Pack Trainer conducts all training of the leader in a unit
                              (obviously not the case). I'm also District Cub Training chair and I
                              would resist having everyone doing their own training at the unit
                              level. When I get leaders in for NLE & PST and we ask if they have
                              done Fast Start, some say yes, some say no, and others give that
                              deer-in-the-headlights look. Those are the ones that either have no
                              Pack Trainer in their units or if they do, they aren't handling
                              their roles well. Per the Pack Trainer knot requirements, we need to
                              have a plan to get Fast Start to every new leader within the first
                              couple days after they join. This is in conjunction with having 100%
                              trained (within the CM, CA, DL, WL, TL and CC roles).

                              We use an email registration system in our District and everyone
                              (mostly) pre-registers for training. When they mail use, we provide
                              a confirmation mail back to them, the content of which includes
                              stuff like when, where, what time, what to bring, who to call, how
                              to cancel, a map, advice of any fees, and most importantly, a noodge
                              to get Fast Start and YP done online before they show up. This helps
                              A LOT.

                              Oh - and to button onto the "new syllabus" discussion, we have
                              conducted a mock Pack Meeting at the end of our PST class for years.
                              Nothing we do gets more positive comments on the evals then the pack
                              Meeting. It is typically an opening, skits from each training den, a
                              song or audience participation, and advancement ceremony and a
                              Cubmaster minute - then we distribute the trained cards and send
                              them home - just like real Cub Scouts.

                              Gerry Moon
                              Orlando, FL

                              --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, bill smith <wt492@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > A couple problems here:
                              > I totally agree with Dan H that the current Fast Start for
                              > den leaders is much superior to anything we have had in
                              > the past, but it still doesn't do a good enough job to be a
                              > stand alone preparation for a new leader to lead den meetings.
                              >
                              > Many den leaders first learn of Fast Start when they attend
                              > NLE or CLS. Too late! We are not that efficient at
                              > communicating and I can't imagine that we ever will be,
                              > even considering the high pay rates for our volunteers.
                              >
                              > Last June I talked to a Director of Field Services who
                              > related his observations of a focus group consisting of
                              > first year den leaders. The consensus of the group was
                              > that even CLS didn't prepare them sufficiently. It was only
                              > after they attended Pow Wow that they finally began
                              > to understand their jobs. I have great hopes for the
                              > new training whenever it shows up.
                              >
                              > Leading a den is one of the toughest jobs in all of Scouting.
                              > We should never underestimate how much preparation,
                              > support and help that this job needs to succeed.
                              >
                              > bill smith
                              > tampa fl
                              >
                              > Fred Goodwin, CMA wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > I've heard this complaint re: NLE many times. I think its a
                              matter of
                              > > managing expectations. As a NLE instructor, I make it a point to
                              tell
                              > > my new trainees that the purpose of NLE is to give an overview
                              of the
                              > > entire program, and how the various pieces fit together.
                              > >
                              > > ,_._,___
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • Faun Guarino
                              I don t think it s a matter of managing expectations. When the new training was first introduced, our council trainers said you must go to NLE, then
                              Message 14 of 23 , Nov 9, 2007
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                                I don't think it's a matter of managing "expectations." When the new
                                training was first introduced, our council trainers said "you must go to
                                NLE, then position specific."



                                Yes, NLE IS designed as an "overview" of the entire continuum of scouting.
                                And for a person brand-new to the program, it's information-overload. And it
                                frightens the heck out of a lot of new cub leaders.



                                Frankly, my ultimate take-away at the first session our council gave was
                                that the course was designed to convince Boy Scout leaders of the value of
                                the Cub Scout program! (Something I never hesitate to point out to the
                                red-epaulet brigade!)



                                I miss the "old days" when the Commissioners were responsible for going in
                                to units and showing the Fast Start tapes to leaders. I think it was a great
                                way to introduce Commissioners to their new charges and a great way to get
                                folks pre-trained.



                                Faun

                                Long Island, NY



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • ed5870@aol.com
                                In a message dated 11/9/2007 2:01:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, wt492@wtsmith.com writes: Of course, a lot of that should be done also at Roundtables but at
                                Message 15 of 23 , Nov 10, 2007
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                                  In a message dated 11/9/2007 2:01:07 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                  wt492@... writes:

                                  Of course, a lot of that should be done also
                                  at Roundtables but at the last half dozen RT I attended (in
                                  different districts and councils) only one had songs and
                                  none had games.


                                  We do both at our Roundtables. We ask for volunteers to do different facets
                                  at the next Roundtable



                                  ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • bill smith
                                  Great! Please let us know where and when are your RTs. If we happen to be in town, we would love to drop by and participate. bill who travels between oregon
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Nov 10, 2007
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                                    Great!
                                    Please let us know where and when are your RTs.
                                    If we happen to be in town, we would love to drop
                                    by and participate.

                                    bill
                                    who travels between oregon and florida

                                    ed5870@... wrote: [ RE: songs & games]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > We do both at our Roundtables. We ask for volunteers to do different
                                    > facets
                                    > at the next Roundtable
                                    >
                                  • Fred Goodwin, CMA
                                    ... With all due respect, I think that s *exactly* the problem. When people leave NLE saying they thought they would learn how to run a den meeting and were
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Nov 10, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      > Posted by: "Faun Guarino" fguarino@...
                                      > Date: Fri Nov 9, 2007 8:36 pm ((PST))
                                      >
                                      > I don't think it's a matter of managing "expectations."

                                      With all due respect, I think that's *exactly* the problem.

                                      When people leave NLE saying they thought they would learn how to run a
                                      den meeting and were disappointed they didn't get that training, and
                                      when you and I both know that's not the purpose of NLE, then obviously
                                      there's a disconnect someplace.

                                      Those folks clearly have not done Fast Start, which as we both know,
                                      tells folks exactly how to run a den meeting. So why aren't they doing
                                      Fast Start before coming to NLE?

                                      New leaders don't know the training sequence, so I don't fault them; I
                                      blame the pack leadership for throwing them into a new job w/o proper
                                      preparation. But at least the pack got them to the training.

                                      > When the new training was first introduced, our council trainers
                                      > said "you must go to NLE, then position specific."

                                      It wasn't just your council trainers saying that -- that was exactly
                                      how the training sequence was designed by National (with Fast Start
                                      preceding both). Since hindsight is aways 20/20, we can quibble with
                                      the sequence, but you needn't blame your council trainers for following
                                      the national syllabus by requiring NLE first.

                                      > Yes, NLE IS designed as an "overview" of the entire continuum of
                                      > scouting. And for a person brand-new to the program, it's
                                      > information-overload. And it frightens the heck out of a lot of new
                                      > cub leaders.

                                      My experience has been just the opposite -- maybe its the way I present
                                      it. I try to keep it fun and engage the audience. The parts about
                                      paying for scouting and the paperwork & policy stuff can be pretty dry,
                                      but when you tie it back to child safety, that's usually enough to hold
                                      their attention.

                                      I've had many trainees thank me after a NLE session, but I've never had
                                      anyone say it was too much info. I'm not disputing your experience --
                                      I'm just saying it hasn't been my experience.

                                      > Frankly, my ultimate take-away at the first session our council gave
                                      > was that the course was designed to convince Boy Scout leaders of the
                                      > value of the Cub Scout program! (Something I never hesitate to point
                                      > out to the red-epaulet brigade!)

                                      Could be, but having taught the course for almost six years, I never
                                      got that impression. I think it shows new Cub leaders how Cubs fit
                                      into the overall progression; it shows Boy Scout leaders how Scouting
                                      builds on Cubbing, and finally how youth "graduate" to Venturing.

                                      > I miss the "old days" when the Commissioners were responsible for
                                      > going in to units and showing the Fast Start tapes to leaders. I
                                      > think it was a great way to introduce Commissioners to their new
                                      > charges and a great way to get folks pre-trained.

                                      Sounds like a great idea and something your UC would probably be happy
                                      to do if asked -- I know I would and I think I'll make that suggestion
                                      to my units.

                                      YiS,

                                      Fred Goodwin, UC
                                      former district training chair
                                    • ed5870@aol.com
                                      We are in Dutchess county in NY about 90 Min north of NYC ************************************** See what s new at http://www.aol.com [Non-text portions of
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Nov 11, 2007
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                                        We are in Dutchess county in NY about 90 Min north of NYC



                                        ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Richard Damon
                                        It sounds like Marian is going to get me a copy of the CD you sent to her. Thanks anyway. Richard Damon Pack Trainer, Pack 306 Scout Master Troop 302 Arlington
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Nov 11, 2007
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                                          It sounds like Marian is going to get me a copy of the CD you sent to her.
                                          Thanks anyway.





                                          Richard Damon

                                          Pack Trainer, Pack 306

                                          Scout Master Troop 302

                                          Arlington MA

                                          District Training Chair, Sons of Liberty District, Boston Minuteman Council

                                          I used to be a fox (NE-I-209) and a good old staffer too (NE-I-234,
                                          NE-I-244)

                                          | >>>-------------------> |



                                          From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                          Of Sandra Martens
                                          Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 9:30 AM
                                          To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: cub scout training



                                          Richard. the cd is 230 MB, 107 folders, and 833 files. It would take forever
                                          to email to you. below are the sessions I cover. If there are specific ones,
                                          email me out of group and ask for them. I'll try to get them to you fast.
                                          CUB SCOUT COURSES A Good Turn Daily Bear Den Planning Beyond the Badge Blue
                                          & Gold Banquet Cooking for Cubs NEW Crafts Creative Campfires Cub Camping
                                          Adventures Cub Ceremonies Cub Scout Control Derby Days Dog Days of Summer
                                          Duty to God NEW Flag Etiquette Games Galore Leatherwork Pack Finances NEW
                                          Pack Meeting in Action Pack Meeting Programs NEW Scout Safety Share the Cub
                                          Adventure Shenanigans Slides and Doodles Tiger Cub Trail Tying It All Up
                                          Walking Sticks WeBeLoS Dutch Oven Cooking NEW WeBeLoS - Community WeBeLoS -
                                          Mental Skills WeBeLoS - Outdoor WeBeLoS - Physical Skills WeBeLoS -
                                          Technology Webelos - The 18 Month Plan NEW Webelos Overnighter NEW Webelos
                                          to Scout Transition Wolf Den Planning Woodworking BOY SCOUT COURSES "To Help
                                          Other People at all Times"
                                          Backpacking on a Budget Basic Knots NEW Beyond the Badge - Boy Scouts Boy
                                          Scout Ceremonies Camp - Wisconsin Dutch Oven Cooking NEW Duty to God NEW
                                          Flag Etiquette Geocaching High Adventure Overview NEW Lashings NEW Order of
                                          the Arrow Orienteering Patrol Method Project First Class NEW Scout Cooking
                                          Scout Safety Scoutmaster Conference / BOR Share the Boy Scout Adventure The
                                          Senior Patrol Leader Trail to Eagle Troop Calendar Planning Unscoutlike
                                          Behavior Winter Camping Wisconsin Waterways NEW

                                          Sandy OWL


                                          Richard Damon <richard@... <mailto:richard%40damon-family.org>
                                          > wrote:
                                          Sandy,

                                          I am working on a similar project for next weekend and would LOVE to get
                                          some of your ideas. Any way you could email some of this to me (or links of
                                          the stuff is online). I have a big mail box so don't worry about that.

                                          Richard Damon

                                          Pack Trainer, Pack 306

                                          Scout Master Troop 302

                                          Arlington MA

                                          District Training Chair, Sons of Liberty District, Boston Minuteman Council

                                          I used to be a fox (NE-I-209) and a good old staffer too (NE-I-234,
                                          NE-I-244)

                                          | >>>-------------------> |

                                          From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
                                          Behalf
                                          Of Sandra Martens
                                          Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 9:22 PM
                                          To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com>
                                          Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: cub scout training

                                          here here! i agree.

                                          i just finished completing a resource cd for a pow wow/rendezvous on
                                          Saturday. As i finished sections I emailed them to the respective
                                          instructors to check over. One of them, CS ceremonies, emailed back and said
                                          thanks for adding all the ceremonies and stuff. he forgot how hard it is to
                                          be new and how new leaders are looking for anything there is out there to
                                          help them. maybe more of us old scouters need to remember that.(sorry about
                                          the bad capitalization- my key keeps getting stuck and i'm too lazy to back
                                          track and fix it)

                                          Sandy OWL

                                          bill smith <wt492@... <mailto:wt492%40wtsmith.com>
                                          <mailto:wt492%40wtsmith.com> > wrote:
                                          A couple problems here:
                                          I totally agree with Dan H that the current Fast Start for
                                          den leaders is much superior to anything we have had in
                                          the past, but it still doesn't do a good enough job to be a
                                          stand alone preparation for a new leader to lead den meetings.

                                          Many den leaders first learn of Fast Start when they attend
                                          NLE or CLS. Too late! We are not that efficient at
                                          communicating and I can't imagine that we ever will be,
                                          even considering the high pay rates for our volunteers.

                                          Last June I talked to a Director of Field Services who
                                          related his observations of a focus group consisting of
                                          first year den leaders. The consensus of the group was
                                          that even CLS didn't prepare them sufficiently. It was only
                                          after they attended Pow Wow that they finally began
                                          to understand their jobs. I have great hopes for the
                                          new training whenever it shows up.

                                          Leading a den is one of the toughest jobs in all of Scouting.
                                          We should never underestimate how much preparation,
                                          support and help that this job needs to succeed.

                                          bill smith
                                          tampa fl

                                          Fred Goodwin, CMA wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > I've heard this complaint re: NLE many times. I think its a matter of
                                          > managing expectations. As a NLE instructor, I make it a point to tell
                                          > my new trainees that the purpose of NLE is to give an overview of the
                                          > entire program, and how the various pieces fit together.
                                          >
                                          > ,_._,___

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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