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Re: [Scouter_T] When is a leader trained?

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  • Brant Lippincott
    Wasn t in 1999 when we rolled out the new training?? (NLE, LST, etc??) We ve advertised for years that NLE only had to be taken ONCE. So, I d call that done.
    Message 1 of 22 , Oct 1, 2007
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      Wasn't in 1999 when we rolled out the new training?? (NLE, LST, etc??)

      We've advertised for years that NLE only had to be taken ONCE. So, I'd call that done. If they took Webelos Training at a POW WOW, it was probably the "new" LST, rather than the old Cub Basic. So, technically, I think that's completed as well.

      All that said, I would agree with her CC so that she should "refresh her skills". Especially since it seems like there has been a long gap...

      For the Boys,
      Brant Lippincott

      Herbert Dulzo <hadulzo@...> wrote:
      A leader who took Webeloes leader training in 1999 at a powwow insists
      that she doesn't need to retake the training again since she already
      has taken it. Her committe chair feels she should take it over to
      refresh her skills. The way I read the training guidlines that is not
      necessary though I agree with the logic. Also over the personally
      every time I take a course over or teach it I learn something new.
      Any input?

      Herb Dulzo
      CAC



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    • NeilLup@aol.com
      ... Hello Brant, I believe that the box of new training materials came out in 2001. Best wishes, Neil Lupton ************************************** See
      Message 2 of 22 , Oct 1, 2007
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        In a message dated 10/1/07 8:57:43 AM, brant@... writes:


        >
        > Wasn't in 1999 when we rolled out the new training?? (NLE, LST, etc??)
        >
        >
        >

        Hello Brant,

        I believe that the "box" of new training materials came out in 2001.

        Best wishes,

        Neil Lupton


        **************************************
        See what's new at
        http://www.aol.com


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Fred Goodwin, CMA
        ... I can t speak for anyone else, but I took CSLBT in 2000 under the old syllabus, then joined the district training team in 2001 when they rolled out the new
        Message 3 of 22 , Oct 1, 2007
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          > Posted by: "Brant Lippincott" brant@...
          > Date: Mon Oct 1, 2007 5:57 am ((PDT))
          >
          > Wasn't in 1999 when we rolled out the new training?? (NLE, LST,
          > etc??)

          I can't speak for anyone else, but I took CSLBT in 2000 under the old
          syllabus, then joined the district training team in 2001 when they
          rolled out the new syllabus.

          Fred Goodwin
          former district training chair
        • Jamie Niss Dunn
          That s my recollection as well. I m pretty sure I was still teaching Cub Leader Basic training through the spring of 2000. ... Jamie Niss Dunn Pack Trainer,
          Message 4 of 22 , Oct 1, 2007
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            That's my recollection as well. I'm pretty sure I was still teaching "Cub Leader Basic training" through the spring of 2000.

            >I believe that the "box" of new training materials came out in 2001.




            Jamie Niss Dunn
            Pack Trainer, Pack 512
            Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
            Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner
            Cub Scout Training Coordinator
            3 Rivers District






            ________________________________________________________________________
            Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • David Brown
            Yes the New Syllabus came out in 2001. I took he course the same year that it came out for Cubmaster. Dave Brown _____ From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
            Message 5 of 22 , Oct 1, 2007
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              Yes the New Syllabus came out in 2001. I took he course the same year that
              it came out for Cubmaster.



              Dave Brown



              _____

              From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
              Of Brant Lippincott
              Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 8:57 AM
              To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] When is a leader trained?



              Wasn't in 1999 when we rolled out the new training?? (NLE, LST, etc??)

              We've advertised for years that NLE only had to be taken ONCE. So, I'd call
              that done. If they took Webelos Training at a POW WOW, it was probably the
              "new" LST, rather than the old Cub Basic. So, technically, I think that's
              completed as well.

              All that said, I would agree with her CC so that she should "refresh her
              skills". Especially since it seems like there has been a long gap...

              For the Boys,
              Brant Lippincott

              Herbert Dulzo <hadulzo@yahoo. <mailto:hadulzo%40yahoo.com> com> wrote:
              A leader who took Webeloes leader training in 1999 at a powwow insists
              that she doesn't need to retake the training again since she already
              has taken it. Her committe chair feels she should take it over to
              refresh her skills. The way I read the training guidlines that is not
              necessary though I agree with the logic. Also over the personally
              every time I take a course over or teach it I learn something new.
              Any input?

              Herb Dulzo
              CAC

              ._,___



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • goodoldbeartoo
              Ideally training should be an ongoing component of every unit s program, both for the scouts and for the adult leaders. It is the responsibility of the
              Message 6 of 22 , Oct 2, 2007
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                Ideally training should be an ongoing component of every unit's
                program, both for the scouts and for the adult leaders. It is the
                responsibility of the committee to ensure that every boy has a trained
                leader. This responsibility would extend to requiring/encouraging
                refresher courses.
              • corinnajones@hotmail.com
                Refresher courses is the big thing on my mind right now. In our troop we have leaders who have been around for 20, 30, and even 50 years. When I attempted to
                Message 7 of 22 , Oct 2, 2007
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                  Refresher courses is the big thing on my mind right now.
                  In our troop we have leaders who have been around for 20, 30, and even 50
                  years. When I attempted to do a training inventory, they never even
                  considered giving me their information. Some probably took training decades
                  ago, while others never did.
                  A couple of years ago, I managed to get everybody trained in our pack. But
                  the troop is obviously a whole different ballgame.
                  Does anybody have a strategy to get the goal accomplished without stepping
                  on any toes? Would it be a good idea to get an older male leader involved?
                  Our UC is one of these folks. He was even a boy in the troop.
                  Any advice would be great.
                  Thanks,
                  Corinna

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "goodoldbeartoo" <GATidwell@...>
                  To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 7:05 AM
                  Subject: [Scouter_T] Re: When is a leader trained?


                  > Ideally training should be an ongoing component of every unit's
                  > program, both for the scouts and for the adult leaders. It is the
                  > responsibility of the committee to ensure that every boy has a trained
                  > leader. This responsibility would extend to requiring/encouraging
                  > refresher courses.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > For subscription and delevery options send a message to:
                  > scouter_t-help@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Scouting The Net - http://www.ScoutingTheNet.com/
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • NeilLup@aol.com
                  ... Strategies: 1) Ask them for information and if they don t have it, approximate. My council in Boston could never find records, for example, that I
                  Message 8 of 22 , Oct 2, 2007
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                    In a message dated 10/2/07 12:45:30 PM, corinnajones@... writes:


                    >
                    > Refresher courses is the big thing on my mind right now.
                    > In our troop we have leaders who have been around for 20, 30, and even 50
                    > years. When I attempted to do a training inventory, they never even
                    > considered giving me their information. Some probably took training decades
                    > ago, while others never did.
                    > A couple of years ago, I managed to get everybody trained in our pack. But
                    > the troop is obviously a whole different ballgame.
                    > Does anybody have a strategy to get the goal accomplished without stepping
                    > on any toes? Would it be a good idea to get an older male leader involved?
                    > Our UC is one of these folks. He was even a boy in the troop.
                    > Any advice would be great.
                    > Thanks,
                    > Corinna
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    Strategies:

                    1) Ask them for information and if they don't have it, approximate. My
                    council in Boston could never find records, for example, that I took
                    Scoutmaster training at Edwards AFB California in the fall of 1969. But if they ask
                    me, I will tell them or give them an approximate date.
                    2) For updates, get some of those "old timers' involved in doing the
                    training. Nothing says that one has to go through training as a participant.
                    One can be a staff member, support crew member, etc.
                    3) If people are wearing Training keys and awards, ask when they got their
                    training. If they are not, get some scorecards and put them in for those
                    awards.
                    4) Remember that training can be completed 3 ways:
                    a) Group training
                    b) Personal coaching
                    c) Self-study

                    All of those are recognized, legitimate ways to complete training. So if
                    there is someone who has 40 years of experience but never "took training",
                    that person can be certified as trained if they have read the material and a
                    trainer or Commissioner certifies that they have the knowledge necessary based
                    on personal coaching or self-study.

                    This is NOT a way to avoid training. It is saying that there is more than
                    one way to complete training.

                    This is particularly true for Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills. That
                    is intended to get a new leader up to First Class Scout skill levels. It is
                    not an in-depth training on skills or a training on how to train skills.
                    If someone has been an outdoor leader for a year or so in a unit which is
                    reasonably active in the out-of-doors, they have the knowledge necessary for
                    IOLS.
                    5) If someone has Boy Scout Leader Wood Badge, they had to complete basic
                    training to do Wood Badge. They should be considered trained.
                    6) If you have a good University of Scouting in your area, perhaps you
                    can get some of these people to go.

                    Updates are important, but they should be a worthwhile and enjoyable
                    experience. You can probably get some of the old timers on your side in getting
                    people to go to training.

                    Hope this helps,

                    Best wishes,

                    Neil Lupton
                    (who more and more each day is becoming an old timer)



                    **************************************
                    See what's new at http://www.aol.com


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • mcquaidfam@comcast.net
                    Howdy! Neil is dead on, of course. I have the joy of updating our district s training records.(shoot me now!). We created an audit sheet and explained that
                    Message 9 of 22 , Oct 2, 2007
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                      Howdy!
                      Neil is dead on, of course. I have the joy of updating our district's training records.(shoot me now!).

                      We created an "audit" sheet and explained that when Scoutnet came online, not all the stuff came over "correctly", and we were checking it. Not only that, but we needed to make sure they got credit for their UNIT! That appealed to many.

                      Naturally, grumbling about Council's ineptitude ensued, and I nodded my head sympathetically, and looked woebegon. Got lots of good info. And we are updating those records, slowly.

                      As to getting them to newer sessions, I ask them to give a newbie a ride, and when they do show up, I make a big deal about how much experience they have, and often ask them to contribute their experiences. They enjoy the time in the sun, and the attention, and are more willing to "help out" at training.

                      RE: IOLS
                      My district pioneered "IOLS CHECK". It has worked WONDERFULLY. ASMs/SMs/Webelos Leaders who have done heavy camping come to a 4 hr session, and go from station to station, demonstrating that they have the skills that would have been taught in a particular session. They get a check sheet, and if they collect ALL the signatures, they get passed. If not, I report them to the BS RT chair and their SM. The BSRT chair helps them out at RT, and their SM is given the responsibility of getting them passed. The couple of folks from Sept 06 were considered passed at their unit's Oct. camping trip. This Sept, I had 0 incompletes.

                      Oh, and the staff for this? Mostly Star and Life Scouts. There are a few adults to supervise and introduce the area, but because so much is 1-1, it is easy to get Scouts who like being "instructors" for adults.

                      Yours in Training,
                      Marian McQuaid
                      Boston Minuteman Council

                      PS...tonight I have a newer CM going to CM training. I think he trained me oh...20 yrs ago. He is coming as he wants to know the latest info and resources. He has spent the last 17 yrs with a Boy Scout troop and is going to the pack to help out.
                      -------------- Original message --------------
                      From: NeilLup@...

                      > Strategies:
                      >
                      > 1) Ask them for information and if they don't have it, approximate. My
                      > council in Boston could never find records, for example, that I took
                      > Scoutmaster training at Edwards AFB California in the fall of 1969. But if
                      > they ask
                      > me, I will tell them or give them an approximate date.
                      > 2) For updates, get some of those "old timers' involved in doing the
                      > training. Nothing says that one has to go through training as a participant.
                      > One can be a staff member, support crew member, etc.
                      > 3) If people are wearing Training keys and awards, ask when they got their
                      > training. If they are not, get some scorecards and put them in for those
                      > awards.
                      > 4) Remember that training can be completed 3 ways:
                      > a) Group training
                      > b) Personal coaching
                      > c) Self-study
                      >
                      > All of those are recognized, legitimate ways to complete training. So if
                      > there is someone who has 40 years of experience but never "took training",
                      > that person can be certified as trained if they have read the material and a
                      > trainer or Commissioner certifies that they have the knowledge necessary based
                      > on personal coaching or self-study.
                      >
                      > This is NOT a way to avoid training. It is saying that there is more than
                      > one way to complete training.
                      >
                      > This is particularly true for Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills. That
                      > is intended to get a new leader up to First Class Scout skill levels. It is
                      > not an in-depth training on skills or a training on how to train skills.
                      > If someone has been an outdoor leader for a year or so in a unit which is
                      > reasonably active in the out-of-doors, they have the knowledge necessary for
                      > IOLS.
                      > 5) If someone has Boy Scout Leader Wood Badge, they had to complete basic
                      > training to do Wood Badge. They should be considered trained.
                      > 6) If you have a good University of Scouting in your area, perhaps you
                      > can get some of these people to go.
                      >
                      > Updates are important, but they should be a worthwhile and enjoyable
                      > experience. You can probably get some of the old timers on your side in
                      > getting
                      > people to go to training.
                      >
                      > Hope this helps,
                      >
                      > Best wishes,
                      >
                      > Neil Lupton
                      > (who more and more each day is becoming an old timer)
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Jamie Niss Dunn
                      ... Well, you might use the Centennial Quality Unit award as a tool. Are these direct contact leaders ? I believe that includes ASMs in addition to Scout
                      Message 10 of 22 , Oct 2, 2007
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                        >Does anybody have a strategy to get the goal accomplished without stepping
                        >on any toes? Would it be a good idea to get an older male leader involved?
                        >Our UC is one of these folks. He was even a boy in the troop.
                        Well, you might use the Centennial Quality Unit award as a tool. Are these "direct contact leaders"? I believe that includes ASMs in addition to Scout masters. If so, set a goal that would require training for them. Then, if the council can't find training records for these individuals, tell them they'll have to go back for a refresher, so the unit can earn the award.

                        A better way would be to make them *want* to go, by impressing on them the need for up to date information and skills.

                        YiS,

                        Jamie Niss Dunn
                        Pack Trainer, Pack 512
                        Blaine/Coon Rapids, MN
                        Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner
                        Cub Scout Training Coordinator
                        3 Rivers District






                        ________________________________________________________________________
                        Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Brant Lippincott
                        OK.... I buy 2001 on the roll-out date. Now that I think about it, I TOOK CSBLT in 1999 when my son became a Webelos. I think we first taught the New
                        Message 11 of 22 , Oct 4, 2007
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                          OK....

                          I buy 2001 on the roll-out date. Now that I think about it, I TOOK CSBLT in 1999 when my son became a Webelos. I think we first taught the New program in 2002 - the year after I joined the training team.

                          I totally agree on the need for refreshers.

                          The original leader should re-take it, because the program has changed SO much since then.

                          The trouble we have in CUB training is that old BOY scouts - now DADs - think they know everything about camping and don't feel the need to go to OWL (or probably IOLS).

                          For the Boys,
                          Brant Lippincott


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Tom Burke
                          The trouble we have in CUB training is that old BOY scouts - now DADs - think they know everything about camping and don t feel the need to go to OWL (or
                          Message 12 of 22 , Oct 4, 2007
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                            "The trouble we have in CUB training is that old BOY scouts - now DADs - think they know everything about camping and don't feel the need to go to OWL (or probably IOLS)."

                            Scratching my head a bit here???

                            Hmmm well the important thing to remember here is that OWL is not about teaching camping - it is about learning the WEBELOS Outdoor Program; outdoor activity badges & yes, the WEBELOS Den going camping seperate from a troop or Pack. Those old boy scouts probably are ok on the basic camping skills that are covered in both OWL or IOLS - they were all review to me (Yes, I did do them and have the training syllabi for both courses). But what they have to understand is that there are special things to know about the current WEBELOS program. To me, that is the value of OWL. The most important thing they really need to know/learn - is to listen to and follow the LEADER in charge of the activity.

                            Tom Burke


                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Brant Lippincott
                            To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2007 12:43 PM
                            Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: When is a leader trained?


                            OK....

                            I buy 2001 on the roll-out date. Now that I think about it, I TOOK CSBLT in 1999 when my son became a Webelos. I think we first taught the New program in 2002 - the year after I joined the training team.

                            I totally agree on the need for refreshers.

                            The original leader should re-take it, because the program has changed SO much since then.

                            The trouble we have in CUB training is that old BOY scouts - now DADs - think they know everything about camping and don't feel the need to go to OWL (or probably IOLS).

                            For the Boys,
                            Brant Lippincott

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Alpvalsys@aol.com
                            In a message dated 10/4/2007 1:44:18 PM EDT, you wrote: The trouble we have in CUB training is that old BOY scouts - now DADs - think they know everything
                            Message 13 of 22 , Oct 4, 2007
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                              In a message dated 10/4/2007 1:44:18 PM EDT, you wrote:

                              The trouble we have in CUB training is that old BOY scouts - now DADs - think
                              they know everything about camping and don't feel the need to go to OWL (or
                              probably IOLS).

                              That's why I like serving on the district training team; I have to go
                              through the syllabi beforehand to make sure I'm teaching current material. ;-)

                              Ralph V. Balfoort, UC
                              I used to be a beaver (NE III-135)
                              In the Beaver Patrol as a Scout
                              And still Ktemaque (Beaver) Chapter,
                              Kittan Lodge #364, OA



                              ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Natalie Bozier
                              Neil, I do understand the a great many of our leaders are actually trained in their areas I need some clarification on some issues that I have experienced:
                              Message 14 of 22 , Oct 12, 2007
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                                Neil,

                                I do understand the a great many of our leaders are actually trained in their areas I need some clarification on some issues that I have experienced:
                                (1) - Wood Badge participants that have not had any outdoor skills training being allow to take the Wood Badge course even if they have only been in the program for a short period of time and may or may not have been in scouts as youth. The main purpose of the exception was to fill the Wood Badge course. So how to I apply :
                                " If someone has Boy Scout Leader Wood Badge, they had to complete basic training to do Wood Badge. They should be considered trained."

                                (2) - When leaders specifically "Eagle Scouts" make the statement "I am an Eagle Scout and I don't have to go through training." How would you handle this issue?
                                (3) - When leaders that have been in the programs for years there have been some policies that have been changed. What kind of evaluation should be done to get a benchmark for the leaders?

                                I also realize that this may only be with my council that this happens. Please advise.

                                We have several leaders who are wonderful leaders and had the training several years back to come in a teach with a training course make the statement- "Several things have changed since I was through the training." We have asked those leaders to go to some of the other experience leaders and get to train on the next SM/ASM course. This has seemed to work.

                                My focus as District Training chairman this year has been to get the records at our council office to reflect the actually levels of training the leaders currently hold.

                                Any response would be highly appreciated.

                                Natalie Bozier
                                Eastern District Training Chairman
                                Chickasaw Council
                                Memphis, TN

                                NeilLup@... wrote:
                                In a message dated 10/2/07 12:45:30 PM, corinnajones@... writes:

                                >
                                > Refresher courses is the big thing on my mind right now.
                                > In our troop we have leaders who have been around for 20, 30, and even 50
                                > years. When I attempted to do a training inventory, they never even
                                > considered giving me their information. Some probably took training decades
                                > ago, while others never did.
                                > A couple of years ago, I managed to get everybody trained in our pack. But
                                > the troop is obviously a whole different ballgame.
                                > Does anybody have a strategy to get the goal accomplished without stepping
                                > on any toes? Would it be a good idea to get an older male leader involved?
                                > Our UC is one of these folks. He was even a boy in the troop.
                                > Any advice would be great.
                                > Thanks,
                                > Corinna
                                >
                                >
                                >

                                Strategies:

                                1) Ask them for information and if they don't have it, approximate. My
                                council in Boston could never find records, for example, that I took
                                Scoutmaster training at Edwards AFB California in the fall of 1969. But if they ask
                                me, I will tell them or give them an approximate date.
                                2) For updates, get some of those "old timers' involved in doing the
                                training. Nothing says that one has to go through training as a participant.
                                One can be a staff member, support crew member, etc.
                                3) If people are wearing Training keys and awards, ask when they got their
                                training. If they are not, get some scorecards and put them in for those
                                awards.
                                4) Remember that training can be completed 3 ways:
                                a) Group training
                                b) Personal coaching
                                c) Self-study

                                All of those are recognized, legitimate ways to complete training. So if
                                there is someone who has 40 years of experience but never "took training",
                                that person can be certified as trained if they have read the material and a
                                trainer or Commissioner certifies that they have the knowledge necessary based
                                on personal coaching or self-study.

                                This is NOT a way to avoid training. It is saying that there is more than
                                one way to complete training.

                                This is particularly true for Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills. That
                                is intended to get a new leader up to First Class Scout skill levels. It is
                                not an in-depth training on skills or a training on how to train skills.
                                If someone has been an outdoor leader for a year or so in a unit which is
                                reasonably active in the out-of-doors, they have the knowledge necessary for
                                IOLS.
                                5) If someone has Boy Scout Leader Wood Badge, they had to complete basic
                                training to do Wood Badge. They should be considered trained.
                                6) If you have a good University of Scouting in your area, perhaps you
                                can get some of these people to go.

                                Updates are important, but they should be a worthwhile and enjoyable
                                experience. You can probably get some of the old timers on your side in getting
                                people to go to training.

                                Hope this helps,

                                Best wishes,

                                Neil Lupton
                                (who more and more each day is becoming an old timer)

                                **************************************
                                See what's new at http://www.aol.com

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                              • Brant Lippincott
                                Hi Natalie, Thanks for your thoughts.... I believe that national considers a person Trained if they have completed: Fast Start for their position New Leader
                                Message 15 of 22 , Oct 17, 2007
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                                  Hi Natalie,

                                  Thanks for your thoughts....

                                  I believe that national considers a person "Trained" if they have completed:
                                  Fast Start for their position
                                  New Leader Essentials (NLE)
                                  Youth Protection Training
                                  Leader Specific Training (LST) for their position

                                  The ONLY LST that has an outdoor portion is the SM/ASM course. Webelos Leaders may take OWL (as I like to call it). It is required for their knot, but not to be considered "trained". BALOO is open to anyone in the pack and isd not awarded a trained strip.

                                  Woodbadge requires that a leader be trained for their postion. So, in theory, a brand new TIGER leader could take the course, if they complete the above.

                                  On your (2) comment.... I would say to anyone that any proir experience does not necessarily provide them with the training to do their (new) job. Things change over time. For example, when I was a BOY scout, sheath knives were the NORM. We are not asking a LOT - only a day or so for NLE, YPT and Cub LST. The Boy Scout LST is a bit longer & includes a weekend campout. MANY troops require that ASMs be trained. This is a safety issue for them. An Eagle Scout has not had a lot of this information conveyed - even if he took a lot of BOY training (recently!)

                                  On the (3), comment, here are two thoughts:
                                  Your trainers should keep up with all changes to the program that they teach on. This would include policy changes.
                                  Roundtable is an IMPORTANT part of training & the place to insure that all leaders are up-to-date on policy changes.

                                  For the Boys,
                                  Brant Lippincott


                                  Natalie Bozier <chickasaw_trainer@...> wrote:
                                  Neil,

                                  I do understand the a great many of our leaders are actually trained in their areas I need some clarification on some issues that I have experienced:
                                  (1) - Wood Badge participants that have not had any outdoor skills training being allow to take the Wood Badge course even if they have only been in the program for a short period of time and may or may not have been in scouts as youth. The main purpose of the exception was to fill the Wood Badge course. So how to I apply :
                                  " If someone has Boy Scout Leader Wood Badge, they had to complete basic training to do Wood Badge. They should be considered trained."

                                  (2) - When leaders specifically "Eagle Scouts" make the statement "I am an Eagle Scout and I don't have to go through training." How would you handle this issue?
                                  (3) - When leaders that have been in the programs for years there have been some policies that have been changed. What kind of evaluation should be done to get a benchmark for the leaders?

                                  I also realize that this may only be with my council that this happens. Please advise.

                                  We have several leaders who are wonderful leaders and had the training several years back to come in a teach with a training course make the statement- "Several things have changed since I was through the training." We have asked those leaders to go to some of the other experience leaders and get to train on the next SM/ASM course. This has seemed to work.

                                  My focus as District Training chairman this year has been to get the records at our council office to reflect the actually levels of training the leaders currently hold.

                                  Any response would be highly appreciated.

                                  Natalie Bozier
                                  Eastern District Training Chairman
                                  Chickasaw Council
                                  Memphis, TN

                                  NeilLup@... wrote:
                                  In a message dated 10/2/07 12:45:30 PM, corinnajones@... writes:

                                  >
                                  > Refresher courses is the big thing on my mind right now.
                                  > In our troop we have leaders who have been around for 20, 30, and even 50
                                  > years. When I attempted to do a training inventory, they never even
                                  > considered giving me their information. Some probably took training decades
                                  > ago, while others never did.
                                  > A couple of years ago, I managed to get everybody trained in our pack. But
                                  > the troop is obviously a whole different ballgame.
                                  > Does anybody have a strategy to get the goal accomplished without stepping
                                  > on any toes? Would it be a good idea to get an older male leader involved?
                                  > Our UC is one of these folks. He was even a boy in the troop.
                                  > Any advice would be great.
                                  > Thanks,
                                  > Corinna
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >

                                  Strategies:

                                  1) Ask them for information and if they don't have it, approximate. My
                                  council in Boston could never find records, for example, that I took
                                  Scoutmaster training at Edwards AFB California in the fall of 1969. But if they ask
                                  me, I will tell them or give them an approximate date.
                                  2) For updates, get some of those "old timers' involved in doing the
                                  training. Nothing says that one has to go through training as a participant.
                                  One can be a staff member, support crew member, etc.
                                  3) If people are wearing Training keys and awards, ask when they got their
                                  training. If they are not, get some scorecards and put them in for those
                                  awards.
                                  4) Remember that training can be completed 3 ways:
                                  a) Group training
                                  b) Personal coaching
                                  c) Self-study

                                  All of those are recognized, legitimate ways to complete training. So if
                                  there is someone who has 40 years of experience but never "took training",
                                  that person can be certified as trained if they have read the material and a
                                  trainer or Commissioner certifies that they have the knowledge necessary based
                                  on personal coaching or self-study.

                                  This is NOT a way to avoid training. It is saying that there is more than
                                  one way to complete training.

                                  This is particularly true for Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills. That
                                  is intended to get a new leader up to First Class Scout skill levels. It is
                                  not an in-depth training on skills or a training on how to train skills.
                                  If someone has been an outdoor leader for a year or so in a unit which is
                                  reasonably active in the out-of-doors, they have the knowledge necessary for
                                  IOLS.
                                  5) If someone has Boy Scout Leader Wood Badge, they had to complete basic
                                  training to do Wood Badge. They should be considered trained.
                                  6) If you have a good University of Scouting in your area, perhaps you
                                  can get some of these people to go.

                                  Updates are important, but they should be a worthwhile and enjoyable
                                  experience. You can probably get some of the old timers on your side in getting
                                  people to go to training.

                                  Hope this helps,

                                  Best wishes,

                                  Neil Lupton
                                  (who more and more each day is becoming an old timer)


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • corinnajones@hotmail.com
                                  The comment below is also important to me. We have several leaders not trained or not trained in decades. We also have three 18-year old ASMs/recent Eagle
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Oct 17, 2007
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                                    The comment below is also important to me. We have several leaders not
                                    trained or not trained in decades. We also have three 18-year old
                                    ASMs/recent Eagle Scouts. Among them my son. He is half way through his
                                    SM/ASM training. Even though he has been summer camp staff for two years (10
                                    weeks each), he learned a ton of new information during the "indoor
                                    session". It will greatly benefit him in working with the new scout patrol.
                                    This weekend he will be doing the "outdoor session". He might be more
                                    familiar with the hands-on part of the training, but that doesn't mean it's
                                    a waste of time.
                                    Corinna


                                    > On your (2) comment.... I would say to anyone that any proir experience
                                    > does not necessarily provide them with the training to do their (new) job.
                                    > Things change over time. For example, when I was a BOY scout, sheath
                                    > knives were the NORM. We are not asking a LOT - only a day or so for NLE,
                                    > YPT and Cub LST. The Boy Scout LST is a bit longer & includes a weekend
                                    > campout. MANY troops require that ASMs be trained. This is a safety
                                    > issue for them. An Eagle Scout has not had a lot of this information
                                    > conveyed - even if he took a lot of BOY training (recently!)<
                                  • Margo Mead
                                    This came up at our most recent training. I came in at the end of the Webelos Position Specific Training (which was going overtime) and the trainer was telling
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Oct 17, 2007
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                                      This came up at our most recent training. I came in at the end of the
                                      Webelos Position Specific Training (which was going overtime) and the
                                      trainer was telling people he was going to hand them their Trained strips,
                                      but before they could wear them they needed to take Youth Protection
                                      Training, he would take their word that they were going to take that, and
                                      hand them the trained strip.



                                      I told him that no, they could wear the trained strip now, whether or not
                                      they sat through the live YPT training that was being offered next.



                                      In the training continuum, Youth Protection Training is part of the "Ongoing
                                      Supplemental Training" rather than the "required for wearing the Trained
                                      patch" training. The training continuum on our council's website clearly
                                      shows that once a leader takes Fast Start, New Leader Essentials, and Leader
                                      Specific Training (for Scoutmasters that includes Introduction to Outdoor
                                      Leader Skills), they qualify to wear the Trained patch.

                                      http://www.cpcbsa.org/training/require/scout_training_requirements.html



                                      It certainly is a good idea to have YPT considered part of the training, but
                                      officially it is not. Perhaps it is because they encourage anyone, even
                                      parents, to take YPT. Also perhaps because it has to be renewed every now
                                      and then. I'm not sure.



                                      Margo



                                      From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                                      Of Brant Lippincott
                                      Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 6:55 AM
                                      To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: When is a leader trained?



                                      Hi Natalie,

                                      Thanks for your thoughts....

                                      I believe that national considers a person "Trained" if they have completed:
                                      Fast Start for their position
                                      New Leader Essentials (NLE)
                                      Youth Protection Training
                                      Leader Specific Training (LST) for their position

                                      The ONLY LST that has an outdoor portion is the SM/ASM course. Webelos
                                      Leaders may take OWL (as I like to call it). It is required for their knot,
                                      but not to be considered "trained". BALOO is open to anyone in the pack and
                                      isd not awarded a trained strip.

                                      Woodbadge requires that a leader be trained for their postion. So, in
                                      theory, a brand new TIGER leader could take the course, if they complete the
                                      above.







                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • corinnajones@hotmail.com
                                      Margo, I believe in some councils YPT is mandatory, and they tie it to being trained . I could not get a straight answer out of my Council though. Corinna ...
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Oct 17, 2007
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                                        Margo,
                                        I believe in some councils YPT is mandatory, and they tie it to being
                                        "trained". I could not get a straight answer out of my Council though.
                                        Corinna

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "Margo Mead" <meadclan@...>
                                        To: <scouter_t@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 10:35 AM
                                        Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] Re: When is a leader trained?


                                        > This came up at our most recent training. I came in at the end of the
                                        > Webelos Position Specific Training (which was going overtime) and the
                                        > trainer was telling people he was going to hand them their Trained strips,
                                        > but before they could wear them they needed to take Youth Protection
                                        > Training, he would take their word that they were going to take that, and
                                        > hand them the trained strip.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > I told him that no, they could wear the trained strip now, whether or not
                                        > they sat through the live YPT training that was being offered next.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > In the training continuum, Youth Protection Training is part of the
                                        > "Ongoing
                                        > Supplemental Training" rather than the "required for wearing the Trained
                                        > patch" training. The training continuum on our council's website clearly
                                        > shows that once a leader takes Fast Start, New Leader Essentials, and
                                        > Leader
                                        > Specific Training (for Scoutmasters that includes Introduction to Outdoor
                                        > Leader Skills), they qualify to wear the Trained patch.
                                        >
                                        > http://www.cpcbsa.org/training/require/scout_training_requirements.html
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > It certainly is a good idea to have YPT considered part of the training,
                                        > but
                                        > officially it is not. Perhaps it is because they encourage anyone, even
                                        > parents, to take YPT. Also perhaps because it has to be renewed every now
                                        > and then. I'm not sure.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Margo
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On
                                        > Behalf
                                        > Of Brant Lippincott
                                        > Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 6:55 AM
                                        > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Re: When is a leader trained?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Hi Natalie,
                                        >
                                        > Thanks for your thoughts....
                                        >
                                        > I believe that national considers a person "Trained" if they have
                                        > completed:
                                        > Fast Start for their position
                                        > New Leader Essentials (NLE)
                                        > Youth Protection Training
                                        > Leader Specific Training (LST) for their position
                                        >
                                        > The ONLY LST that has an outdoor portion is the SM/ASM course. Webelos
                                        > Leaders may take OWL (as I like to call it). It is required for their
                                        > knot,
                                        > but not to be considered "trained". BALOO is open to anyone in the pack
                                        > and
                                        > isd not awarded a trained strip.
                                        >
                                        > Woodbadge requires that a leader be trained for their postion. So, in
                                        > theory, a brand new TIGER leader could take the course, if they complete
                                        > the
                                        > above.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
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