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FA/CPR Training

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  • Richard Pennington
    Where are good places to look to get this training? I have called around and the hospitals want like 35 dollars a person for this stuff. I have seen people
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 14, 2007
      Where are good places to look to get this training? I have called around
      and the hospitals want like 35 dollars a person for this stuff. I have seen
      people talk about getting it for little to nothing. Any suggestions? We do
      not have a red cross around here that provides this, they all reference the
      hospitals.



      Richard Pennington

      Eagle Scout Class of 1988

      Unit Commissioner Tall Timbers District ETAC

      Assistant Scoutmaster Troop 138

      Advisor Crew 138

      District Committee Tall Timbers District ETAC







      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Melina Baker
      Richard, I am also from Texas - ETAC, Three Rivers District. You recently joined our RT talk list. We have someone, Lynn C., in our district (in fact, I m
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 14, 2007
        Richard,



        I am also from Texas - ETAC, Three Rivers District. You recently joined our
        RT talk list.



        We have someone, Lynn C., in our district (in fact, I'm proud to say she is
        my very good friend as well) who teaches FA/CPR, Wilderness FA, and other
        variants of the courses. She is certified to teach by Red Cross and AHA.
        She can do classes for little or nothing when she's doing them for scouts.
        She's currently working on a date to have a class, since several of us
        recently expired (well, our training expired, not US!). Kris S, in
        Okee-Tuklo, also teaches those classes - I think. She teaches pretty much
        everything else!



        Email on the Three Rivers Group that you need the training - my husband just
        sent a message out earlier today or yesterday to the same effect, so now
        would be a good time to jump in there. I'm guessing Lynn would do it in
        Jacksonville, although I know she'll travel.



        Melina Baker

        Cubmaster, Pack 403

        Cub Scout Roundtable Commish, Three Rivers District

        "I used to be a Bobwhite."







        _____

        From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        Of Richard Pennington
        Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 5:43 PM
        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Scouter_T] FA/CPR Training



        Where are good places to look to get this training? I have called around
        and the hospitals want like 35 dollars a person for this stuff. I have seen
        people talk about getting it for little to nothing. Any suggestions? We do
        not have a red cross around here that provides this, they all reference the
        hospitals.

        Richard Pennington

        Eagle Scout Class of 1988

        Unit Commissioner Tall Timbers District ETAC

        Assistant Scoutmaster Troop 138

        Advisor Crew 138

        District Committee Tall Timbers District ETAC

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • docwalrus2
        We are fortunate to have a very active Red Cross chapter BUT - we also have a Scouter who is certified as a CPR instructor. She is a venture crew advisor, on
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 14, 2007
          We are fortunate to have a very active Red Cross chapter BUT - we also
          have a Scouter who is certified as a CPR instructor. She is a venture
          crew advisor, on roundtable staff, and serves as an EMT for most
          District events.

          Perhaps a local pack/troop/crew has a scouter who is a physician,
          nurse, or EMT that would be interested in taking the instructors
          course and providing the training to Scouts and Scouters for the cost
          of materials.

          Dean

          --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Pennington" <rpenning@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Where are good places to look to get this training? I have called
          around
          > and the hospitals want like 35 dollars a person for this stuff. I
          have seen
          > people talk about getting it for little to nothing. Any
          suggestions? We do
          > not have a red cross around here that provides this, they all
          reference the
          > hospitals.
          >
          >
          >
          > Richard Pennington
          >
          > Eagle Scout Class of 1988
          >
          > Unit Commissioner Tall Timbers District ETAC
          >
          > Assistant Scoutmaster Troop 138
          >
          > Advisor Crew 138
          >
          > District Committee Tall Timbers District ETAC
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Toni McGowan
          I have been fortunate in finding local volunteer EMT s who are also CPR Instructors that work for firehouses that have meeting rooms and provide training for
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 15, 2007
            I have been fortunate in finding local volunteer EMT's who are also CPR
            Instructors that work for firehouses that have meeting rooms and provide
            training for the costs of the books only ($7.00 last year)

            Toni McGowan
            Unit Commissioner and Religious Emblems Counselor, NCAC, Zekiah District
            Administrator, T417, Waldorf, MD


            > Where are good places to look to get this training? I have
            > called around and the hospitals want like 35 dollars a
            > person for this stuff. I have seen people talk about getting
            > it for little to nothing. Any suggestions?
          • Ken Payne Jr
            I m not from your area, but the best places to look are rescue squads, and fire houses. You should be able to contact either the Red Cross or AHA. The problem
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 15, 2007
              I'm not from your area, but the best places to look are rescue squads,
              and fire houses. You should be able to contact either the Red Cross or
              AHA.

              The problem with the cost, is the crd you get and the books you get
              have to be paided for from someone, but the part that brings the price
              up is manakins, unless the instructor has access to the manikins they
              have to rent them, and that can be expensive.

              I a AHA training center where I work and we have all the manikins, they
              we can use so that is no cost and our company allows us to CPR /FA as
              comm8nity service, so we do it for no charge for boys scouts, churches
              etc...
            • Tom Burke
              Many smaller Red Cross chapters are not aware or are unfamiliar with the national agreement between Red Cross and the BSA. There agreement sets forth the cost
              Message 6 of 10 , Mar 27, 2007
                Many smaller Red Cross chapters are not aware or are unfamiliar with the national agreement between Red Cross and the BSA. There agreement sets forth the cost of supplies and training. BUT it also allows us (BSA) to develop our own cadre of Instructors, and to offer our own courses. For example, my council (Great Rivers- Mid Missouri) will be offering a Wilderness First Aid Basics Course, AND CPR for the Professional Rescuer Course for the combined total cost of $60.00. We have three instructors who are trained at the Emergency Response (First Responder) Level, and who are also the WFAB instructors (ok, I am one of them). If my ARC Chapter were offering just the CPR for the Prof. Rescuer course, it would be $55.00. (Other Chapters charge more, but they have a higher overhead to cover.) Doing these courses correctly, with the right resources and instructors is critical. They can get costly... you have the manikins to buy & maintain, or rent - The Video (again purchase or rent) - expendable supplies like gloves and breathing barriers, decontamination supplies, books, and the authorized provider fee to the Red Cross.

                IF we really start doing this the way we can and should, every Council would purchase the manikins et. al. and we arrange to train our own people. What will it take - enough people requesting it from our councils, so that CPR/FA Training becomes a priority. Why has it been so hard to find a WFAB course? - no one asked for it...(it takes 16 hours to complete and does not include CPR) they took the standard First Aid course to meet the basic requirements. (about 2.5-3 hours). Philmont will be requiring WFAB for the 2008 Season - so the demand will be there.

                Tom Burke

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Toni McGowan
                To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 6:25 AM
                Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] FA/CPR Training


                I have been fortunate in finding local volunteer EMT's who are also CPR
                Instructors that work for firehouses that have meeting rooms and provide
                training for the costs of the books only ($7.00 last year)

                Toni McGowan
                Unit Commissioner and Religious Emblems Counselor, NCAC, Zekiah District
                Administrator, T417, Waldorf, MD


                > Where are good places to look to get this training? I have
                > called around and the hospitals want like 35 dollars a
                > person for this stuff. I have seen people talk about getting
                > it for little to nothing. Any suggestions?




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Richard Pennington
                Where can I find the documentation of the agreement? I would like to get something going here. Richard Pennington Eagle Scout Class of 1988 Unit Commissioner
                Message 7 of 10 , Mar 27, 2007
                  Where can I find the documentation of the agreement? I would like to get
                  something going here.



                  Richard Pennington

                  Eagle Scout Class of 1988

                  Unit Commissioner Tall Timbers District ETAC

                  Assistant Scoutmaster Troop 138

                  Advisor Crew 138

                  District Committee Tall Timbers District ETAC



                  _____

                  From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                  Of Tom Burke
                  Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 11:23 AM
                  To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] FA/CPR Training



                  Many smaller Red Cross chapters are not aware or are unfamiliar with the
                  national agreement between Red Cross and the BSA. There agreement sets forth
                  the cost of supplies and training. BUT it also allows us (BSA) to develop
                  our own cadre of Instructors, and to offer our own courses. For example, my
                  council (Great Rivers- Mid Missouri) will be offering a Wilderness First Aid
                  Basics Course, AND CPR for the Professional Rescuer Course for the combined
                  total cost of $60.00. We have three instructors who are trained at the
                  Emergency Response (First Responder) Level, and who are also the WFAB
                  instructors (ok, I am one of them). If my ARC Chapter were offering just the
                  CPR for the Prof. Rescuer course, it would be $55.00. (Other Chapters charge
                  more, but they have a higher overhead to cover.) Doing these courses
                  correctly, with the right resources and instructors is critical. They can
                  get costly... you have the manikins to buy & maintain, or rent - The Vid! eo
                  (again purchase or rent) - expendable supplies like gloves and breathing
                  barriers, decontamination supplies, books, and the authorized provider fee
                  to the Red Cross.

                  IF we really start doing this the way we can and should, every Council would
                  purchase the manikins et. al. and we arrange to train our own people. What
                  will it take - enough people requesting it from our councils, so that CPR/FA
                  Training becomes a priority. Why has it been so hard to find a WFAB course?
                  - no one asked for it...(it takes 16 hours to complete and does not include
                  CPR) they took the standard First Aid course to meet the basic requirements.
                  (about 2.5-3 hours). Philmont will be requiring WFAB for the 2008 Season -
                  so the demand will be there.

                  Tom Burke

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Toni McGowan
                  To: scouter_t@yahoogrou <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                  Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 6:25 AM
                  Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] FA/CPR Training

                  I have been fortunate in finding local volunteer EMT's who are also CPR
                  Instructors that work for firehouses that have meeting rooms and provide
                  training for the costs of the books only ($7.00 last year)

                  Toni McGowan
                  Unit Commissioner and Religious Emblems Counselor, NCAC, Zekiah District
                  Administrator, T417, Waldorf, MD

                  > Where are good places to look to get this training? I have
                  > called around and the hospitals want like 35 dollars a
                  > person for this stuff. I have seen people talk about getting
                  > it for little to nothing. Any suggestions?

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • JNDunnMN@aol.com
                  Here s a press release the BSA put out in 2003: http://www.scouting.org/media/press/2003/030212/index.html and here s the one from the Red Cross:
                  Message 8 of 10 , Mar 27, 2007
                    Here's a press release the BSA put out in 2003:
                    http://www.scouting.org/media/press/2003/030212/index.html

                    and here's the one from the Red Cross:
                    http://www.redcross.org/article/0,1072,0_332_427,00.html
                    Jamie Niss Dunn
                    Pack Trainer
                    Pack 512, Blaine/Coon Rapids Minnesota
                    Cub Scout Training Coordinator
                    Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner
                    3 Rivers District


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: rpenning@...
                    To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 5:42 PM
                    Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] FA/CPR Training


                    Where can I find the documentation of the agreement? I would like to get
                    something going here.

                    Richard Pennington

                    Eagle Scout Class of 1988

                    Unit Commissioner Tall Timbers District ETAC

                    Assistant Scoutmaster Troop 138

                    Advisor Crew 138

                    District Committee Tall Timbers District ETAC

                    _____

                    From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                    Of Tom Burke
                    Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 11:23 AM
                    To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] FA/CPR Training

                    Many smaller Red Cross chapters are not aware or are unfamiliar with the
                    national agreement between Red Cross and the BSA. There agreement sets forth
                    the cost of supplies and training. BUT it also allows us (BSA) to develop
                    our own cadre of Instructors, and to offer our own courses. For example, my
                    council (Great Rivers- Mid Missouri) will be offering a Wilderness First Aid
                    Basics Course, AND CPR for the Professional Rescuer Course for the combined
                    total cost of $60.00. We have three instructors who are trained at the
                    Emergency Response (First Responder) Level, and who are also the WFAB
                    instructors (ok, I am one of them). If my ARC Chapter were offering just the
                    CPR for the Prof. Rescuer course, it would be $55.00. (Other Chapters charge
                    more, but they have a higher overhead to cover.) Doing these courses
                    correctly, with the right resources and instructors is critical. They can
                    get costly... you have the manikins to buy & maintain, or rent - The Vid! eo
                    (again purchase or rent) - expendable supplies like gloves and breathing
                    barriers, decontamination supplies, books, and the authorized provider fee
                    to the Red Cross.

                    IF we really start doing this the way we can and should, every Council would
                    purchase the manikins et. al. and we arrange to train our own people. What
                    will it take - enough people requesting it from our councils, so that CPR/FA
                    Training becomes a priority. Why has it been so hard to find a WFAB course?
                    - no one asked for it...(it takes 16 hours to complete and does not include
                    CPR) they took the standard First Aid course to meet the basic requirements.
                    (about 2.5-3 hours). Philmont will be requiring WFAB for the 2008 Season -
                    so the demand will be there.

                    Tom Burke

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Toni McGowan
                    To: scouter_t@yahoogrou <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                    Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 6:25 AM
                    Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] FA/CPR Training

                    I have been fortunate in finding local volunteer EMT's who are also CPR
                    Instructors that work for firehouses that have meeting rooms and provide
                    training for the costs of the books only ($7.00 last year)

                    Toni McGowan
                    Unit Commissioner and Religious Emblems Counselor, NCAC, Zekiah District
                    Administrator, T417, Waldorf, MD

                    > Where are good places to look to get this training? I have
                    > called around and the hospitals want like 35 dollars a
                    > person for this stuff. I have seen people talk about getting
                    > it for little to nothing. Any suggestions?

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                    ________________________________________________________________________
                    AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Melina Baker
                    Richard, If you recall, when you first brought up this topic I had suggested you get in touch with Lynn C. in 3 Rivers District because she is one of a couple
                    Message 9 of 10 , Mar 28, 2007
                      Richard,



                      If you recall, when you first brought up this topic I had suggested you get
                      in touch with Lynn C. in 3 Rivers District because she is one of a couple of
                      different scouters that does FA/CPR training in our council (ETAC). As it
                      happens, she and I were discussing the ARC/BSA agreement just this evening
                      and she is well aware of it. You can reach her by sending a message out on
                      my district's yahoo group, which you are also a member of:
                      3riversroundtable@yahoogroups.com or I will give you her contact information
                      directly if you want to email me off this list at melina at 9035865051 dot
                      com. She can probably save you some time and trouble!



                      Melina Baker

                      Cubmaster, Pack 403

                      Unit Commissioner, 3 Rivers District ETAC

                      Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner, 3 Rivers District ETAC

                      District Marketing Chair, 3 Rivers District ETAC

                      "I used to be a Bobwhite."



                      _____

                      From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                      Of Richard Pennington
                      Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 5:42 PM
                      To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] FA/CPR Training



                      Where can I find the documentation of the agreement? I would like to get
                      something going here.

                      Richard Pennington

                      Eagle Scout Class of 1988

                      Unit Commissioner Tall Timbers District ETAC

                      Assistant Scoutmaster Troop 138

                      Advisor Crew 138

                      District Committee Tall Timbers District ETAC

                      _____

                      From: scouter_t@yahoogrou <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                      [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogrou <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com] On
                      Behalf
                      Of Tom Burke
                      Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 11:23 AM
                      To: scouter_t@yahoogrou <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                      Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] FA/CPR Training

                      Many smaller Red Cross chapters are not aware or are unfamiliar with the
                      national agreement between Red Cross and the BSA. There agreement sets forth
                      the cost of supplies and training. BUT it also allows us (BSA) to develop
                      our own cadre of Instructors, and to offer our own courses. For example, my
                      council (Great Rivers- Mid Missouri) will be offering a Wilderness First Aid
                      Basics Course, AND CPR for the Professional Rescuer Course for the combined
                      total cost of $60.00. We have three instructors who are trained at the
                      Emergency Response (First Responder) Level, and who are also the WFAB
                      instructors (ok, I am one of them). If my ARC Chapter were offering just the
                      CPR for the Prof. Rescuer course, it would be $55.00. (Other Chapters charge
                      more, but they have a higher overhead to cover.) Doing these courses
                      correctly, with the right resources and instructors is critical. They can
                      get costly... you have the manikins to buy & maintain, or rent - The Vid! eo
                      (again purchase or rent) - expendable supplies like gloves and breathing
                      barriers, decontamination supplies, books, and the authorized provider fee
                      to the Red Cross.

                      IF we really start doing this the way we can and should, every Council would
                      purchase the manikins et. al. and we arrange to train our own people. What
                      will it take - enough people requesting it from our councils, so that CPR/FA
                      Training becomes a priority. Why has it been so hard to find a WFAB course?
                      - no one asked for it...(it takes 16 hours to complete and does not include
                      CPR) they took the standard First Aid course to meet the basic requirements.
                      (about 2.5-3 hours). Philmont will be requiring WFAB for the 2008 Season -
                      so the demand will be there.

                      Tom Burke

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Toni McGowan
                      To: scouter_t@yahoogrou <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                      Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 6:25 AM
                      Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] FA/CPR Training

                      I have been fortunate in finding local volunteer EMT's who are also CPR
                      Instructors that work for firehouses that have meeting rooms and provide
                      training for the costs of the books only ($7.00 last year)

                      Toni McGowan
                      Unit Commissioner and Religious Emblems Counselor, NCAC, Zekiah District
                      Administrator, T417, Waldorf, MD

                      > Where are good places to look to get this training? I have
                      > called around and the hospitals want like 35 dollars a
                      > person for this stuff. I have seen people talk about getting
                      > it for little to nothing. Any suggestions?

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Melina Baker
                      Richard, If you recall, when you first brought up this topic I had suggested you get in touch with Lynn C. in 3 Rivers District because she is one of a couple
                      Message 10 of 10 , Mar 28, 2007
                        Richard,



                        If you recall, when you first brought up this topic I had suggested you get
                        in touch with Lynn C. in 3 Rivers District because she is one of a couple of
                        different scouters that does FA/CPR training in our council (ETAC). As it
                        happens, she and I were discussing the ARC/BSA agreement just this evening
                        and she is well aware of it. You can reach her by sending a message out on
                        my district's yahoo group, which you are also a member of:
                        3riversroundtable@yahoogroups.com or I will give you her contact information
                        directly if you want to email me off this list at melina at 9035865051 dot
                        com. She can probably save you some time and trouble!



                        Melina Baker

                        Cubmaster, Pack 403

                        Unit Commissioner, 3 Rivers District ETAC

                        Cub Scout Roundtable Commissioner, 3 Rivers District ETAC

                        District Marketing Chair, 3 Rivers District ETAC

                        "I used to be a Bobwhite."



                        _____

                        From: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                        Of Richard Pennington
                        Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 5:42 PM
                        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] FA/CPR Training



                        Where can I find the documentation of the agreement? I would like to get
                        something going here.

                        Richard Pennington

                        Eagle Scout Class of 1988

                        Unit Commissioner Tall Timbers District ETAC

                        Assistant Scoutmaster Troop 138

                        Advisor Crew 138

                        District Committee Tall Timbers District ETAC

                        _____

                        From: scouter_t@yahoogrou <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                        [mailto:scouter_t@yahoogrou <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com] On
                        Behalf
                        Of Tom Burke
                        Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2007 11:23 AM
                        To: scouter_t@yahoogrou <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                        Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] FA/CPR Training

                        Many smaller Red Cross chapters are not aware or are unfamiliar with the
                        national agreement between Red Cross and the BSA. There agreement sets forth
                        the cost of supplies and training. BUT it also allows us (BSA) to develop
                        our own cadre of Instructors, and to offer our own courses. For example, my
                        council (Great Rivers- Mid Missouri) will be offering a Wilderness First Aid
                        Basics Course, AND CPR for the Professional Rescuer Course for the combined
                        total cost of $60.00. We have three instructors who are trained at the
                        Emergency Response (First Responder) Level, and who are also the WFAB
                        instructors (ok, I am one of them). If my ARC Chapter were offering just the
                        CPR for the Prof. Rescuer course, it would be $55.00. (Other Chapters charge
                        more, but they have a higher overhead to cover.) Doing these courses
                        correctly, with the right resources and instructors is critical. They can
                        get costly... you have the manikins to buy & maintain, or rent - The Vid! eo
                        (again purchase or rent) - expendable supplies like gloves and breathing
                        barriers, decontamination supplies, books, and the authorized provider fee
                        to the Red Cross.

                        IF we really start doing this the way we can and should, every Council would
                        purchase the manikins et. al. and we arrange to train our own people. What
                        will it take - enough people requesting it from our councils, so that CPR/FA
                        Training becomes a priority. Why has it been so hard to find a WFAB course?
                        - no one asked for it...(it takes 16 hours to complete and does not include
                        CPR) they took the standard First Aid course to meet the basic requirements.
                        (about 2.5-3 hours). Philmont will be requiring WFAB for the 2008 Season -
                        so the demand will be there.

                        Tom Burke

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Toni McGowan
                        To: scouter_t@yahoogrou <mailto:scouter_t%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
                        Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 6:25 AM
                        Subject: RE: [Scouter_T] FA/CPR Training

                        I have been fortunate in finding local volunteer EMT's who are also CPR
                        Instructors that work for firehouses that have meeting rooms and provide
                        training for the costs of the books only ($7.00 last year)

                        Toni McGowan
                        Unit Commissioner and Religious Emblems Counselor, NCAC, Zekiah District
                        Administrator, T417, Waldorf, MD

                        > Where are good places to look to get this training? I have
                        > called around and the hospitals want like 35 dollars a
                        > person for this stuff. I have seen people talk about getting
                        > it for little to nothing. Any suggestions?

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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