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Re: [Scouter_T] Troop program planning: how do you do it?

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  • NeilLup@aol.com
    ... Ken, you wrote such a wise post. I would add only one item. A leader needs to have tattooed on the inside of his or her eyelids. It s not my troop,
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 13, 2007
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      In a message dated 2/13/07 4:21:06 PM, ken@... writes:


      > More adult hands
      > and tongues have been ripped out because they lacked the patience to let the
      > boys harangue through their ideas at a Troop Leader Council.
      >

      Ken, you wrote such a wise post. I would add only one item.

      A leader needs to have tattooed on the inside of his or her eyelids. "It's
      not my troop, it's THEIR troop. If an activity fails because of youth
      leadership or youth planning, it's not MY failure and it may not be a failure
      at all."

      And this may be incredibly difficult to remember when

      1) The leader's self worth is tied up with the unit
      2) The parents are screaming about disorganization, poor planning and
      -- worst of all -- INCONVENIENCE for them as a result of youth leadership.
      3) The younger Scouts are complaining and possibly voting with their feet
      because the meetings and activities are not as well organized, planned and
      "fun" relative to some adult led organizations they belong to. It's great to
      be a leader in a boy run organization. It's not necessarily so great to be
      a junior level follower. That can be a major challenge for the adult
      leaders.

      Best wishes,

      Neil Lupton


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • corinnajones@hotmail.com
      Neil, Well put. I will print this for the parents in my troop, if you don t mind. Thanks, Corinna ... From: NeilLup@aol.com To: ken@lejafamily.net ;
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 13, 2007
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        Neil,
        Well put. I will print this for the parents in my troop, if you don't mind.
        Thanks,
        Corinna

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: NeilLup@...
        To: ken@... ; scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 5:13 PM
        Subject: Re: [Scouter_T] Troop program planning: how do you do it?



        In a message dated 2/13/07 4:21:06 PM, ken@... writes:

        > More adult hands
        > and tongues have been ripped out because they lacked the patience to let the
        > boys harangue through their ideas at a Troop Leader Council.
        >

        Ken, you wrote such a wise post. I would add only one item.

        A leader needs to have tattooed on the inside of his or her eyelids. "It's
        not my troop, it's THEIR troop. If an activity fails because of youth
        leadership or youth planning, it's not MY failure and it may not be a failure
        at all."

        And this may be incredibly difficult to remember when

        1) The leader's self worth is tied up with the unit
        2) The parents are screaming about disorganization, poor planning and
        -- worst of all -- INCONVENIENCE for them as a result of youth leadership.
        3) The younger Scouts are complaining and possibly voting with their feet
        because the meetings and activities are not as well organized, planned and
        "fun" relative to some adult led organizations they belong to. It's great to
        be a leader in a boy run organization. It's not necessarily so great to be
        a junior level follower. That can be a major challenge for the adult
        leaders.

        Best wishes,

        Neil Lupton

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Frank Maynard
        ... I think this is symptomatic of having former Cub leaders come into your troop without a clear understanding of their role as adults in a troop. I see it
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 14, 2007
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          On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, Fred Goodwin, CMA wrote:

          > (1) The adults have done (and continue to do) all the planning

          I think this is symptomatic of having former Cub leaders come into your
          troop without a clear understanding of their role as adults in a troop.
          I see it mainly on an individual basis (the former den leader who
          "schedules" his son's requirements and merit badges) but I've seen it on
          the troop level as well, both in program planning and in running the troop
          meetings and activities. Naturally, I feel that training is the key to
          instilling the proper behavior in the adults so that the boys can run
          their program.

          One of the most difficult things we do as parents and as Scout leaders is
          to let our boys take the responsibility for their actions and activities.
          We hate to see our children fail, but we fail them by not allowing them to
          try, fail, learn, try again, and succeed.

          We must, as B-P said, train a boy to do a job, and then let him do it.

          --
          Yours in Scouting,
          Frank Maynard, NF8M
          CC, Troop 407; CR, Pack 54, Novi, Michigan
          Ottawa Dist. Cub Training Chair & Cub RT Staff, Clinton Valley Council
          Trustee, WB8BSA ...and a good old Bobwhite too! (C-23-04)
        • Garry McLeary
          As my ol friend Ken said, a boy run troop is a joy to watch but a real Antilope to acheive. It takes much patience and continued training and coaching for both
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 14, 2007
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            As my ol friend Ken said, a boy run troop is a joy to watch but a real Antilope to acheive.
            It takes much patience and continued training and coaching for both the Scouts and the adults. Please remember this is not a sink or swim situation, the boys plan and run the troop to the extent they are able, always setting the bar just a little higher than they think they can jump. Concider Troop Leader training and NYLT for the boys and Committee Challange, Scoutmaster Specific, OLS Woodbadge and the like for the adults along with a healthy portion of patience. Lots of wispering, coaching and mentoring.
            Anyway thats how we work in the Troop I have the privalage to serve and it works for us.
            yis
            Garry

            al.net> wrote:
            The PLC of our allegedly "boy-led" troop has no idea how to plan
            monthly campout activities. I suspect two causes for this:

            (1) The adults have done (and continue to do) all the planning; and
            (2) The boys have never been shown how to plan camping activities

            At the PLC last nite, the boys flopped around for almost an hour trying
            to come up with things to do on next month's campout. They spent far
            too much time talking about menus and far too little talking about
            activities.

            I know what the adults want them to do; I think the only reason the
            adults didn't take over was because I was sitting there watching both
            them and the boys to see what would happen (I've been a critic of too
            much adult involvement in running our so-called "boy-led" troop).

            I'm responsible for conducting Troop Leadership Training (TLT), but for
            those of you who've done it, you know TLT says next to nothing about
            practical skills like how to plan a campout, how to run a PLC meeting,
            or how to do annual program planning.

            I've proposed to our SM that the troop invest in a copy of the Troop
            Program Features books; then some of the adults will sit down with the
            PLC and show them how to plan a campout. We'll worry about planning
            the PLC next, and finally we'll train them on how to plan the annual
            program.

            The adults deny it, but I see the firm imprint of adult planning all
            over our annual calendar and our monthly campouts. The signs are that
            the boys complain about the activities, and the timing and location of
            our monthly campouts. When we ask them for alternatives, they have no
            idea what to offer.

            Now, I wasn't present at the last program planning meeting, so its not
            fair of me to blame all of our shortcomings on the adults. But I think
            to blame the boys then begs the question: who trained them (or not)?

            So how do your units handle monthly campout planning and annual program
            planning?

            How involved are the adults, really? Is there anyone out there willing
            to admit that the adults actually run their "boy-led" troop? No one in
            my troop is willing to say what is patently obvious to me.

            Fred Goodwin
            T515 Alamo Area Council





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          • Peter Mullaney
            Sandwich Principle from the Sweet 16 - Supervision and Discipline. Which covers health and safety, but I think goes a little deeper. Not withstanding I ve
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 14, 2007
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              Sandwich Principle from the 'Sweet 16' - Supervision and Discipline.
              Which covers health and safety, but I think goes a little deeper.
              Not withstanding I've always told my troops - JLTC/NYLT, T-67 and
              parents that the reason I'm there is for health and safety. Usually
              after I say it I try to think if that covers all of the Sandwich
              Principle.

              Ramble off,

              Pete Mullaney

              On 2/13/07, Ken Leja <ken@...> wrote:

              <Snip> The role of any adult is (1) health and safety. After that, it's all a
              > matter of mentoring -- age-appropriate and with TLC (care!) -- so that the
              > youth learn, are challenged, and can plan their own program.
              >
              <Snip>

              Ken
              > "I used to be a Buffalo, and a good ol' Antelope, too!"
            • Brant Lippincott
              ... Exactly!! I talk about this when we chat about the Webelos to Scout part of OWL... I say that the hardest thing to do as a new BS parent/Leader is to
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 15, 2007
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                Frank noted:

                >>I think this is symptomatic of having former Cub leaders come into your
                >>troop without a clear understanding of their role as adults in a troop.

                Exactly!! I talk about this when we chat about the Webelos to Scout part of OWL... I say that the hardest thing to do as a new BS parent/Leader is to "sit on your hands". But, it is the absolutely necessary - except in cases of danger.

                One thought about training a boy how to do it... You can offer them choices of actions... Like when you are taking your spouse out to dinner. Do you want to go to (a) or (b)?? As opposed to "where do you want to go to dinner?" With the boys, you can give them more choices... Once they understand the process, you can let the process be a LOT more open-ended.

                For the Boys,
                Brant


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              • Jeff Blakemore
                One thought about training a boy how to do it... You can offer them choices of actions... Like when you are taking your spouse out to dinner. Do you want
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 16, 2007
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                  <snip>One thought about training a boy how to do it... You can offer them
                  choices of actions... Like when you are taking your spouse out to dinner. Do
                  you want to go to (a) or (b)?? As opposed to "where do you want to go to
                  dinner?" With the boys, you can give them more choices... Once they
                  understand the process, you can let the process be a LOT more
                  open-ended.</snip>



                  I agree with this for the most part. The only exception is that my wife is
                  able to realize that while I offered 'a' or 'b', she can choose 'c' as well.
                  The scouts are not as likely to think past what is suggested, unless
                  prompted. So for me anyway, the last choice is "something else."



                  YiS,

                  ~Jeff



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                • Fred Goodwin, CMA
                  ... Agreed -- I d like to show them the Troop Program Features and show them how they can use them to plan camping activities. I would never expect a boy to
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 18, 2007
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                    > Posted by: "Jeff Blakemore" jeff@...
                    > Date: Fri Feb 16, 2007 5:16 am ((PST))
                    >
                    > I agree with this for the most part. The only exception is that my
                    > wife is able to realize that while I offered 'a' or 'b', she can
                    > choose 'c' as well. The scouts are not as likely to think past what
                    > is suggested, unless prompted. So for me anyway, the last choice
                    > is "something else."

                    Agreed -- I'd like to show them the Troop Program Features and show
                    them how they can use them to plan camping activities. I would never
                    expect a boy to come up with progam ideas if they've never been asked
                    to do it before.

                    As far as I can tell, the adults have always done the monthly campout
                    planning (other than patrol menus), thus effectively crippling any
                    ability of the boys to do such planning on their own. Worse yet, the
                    adults then criticize the boys for not knowing how to plan a campout!

                    Fred Goodwin
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