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Re: [Scouter_T] Teaching Scout Pride

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  • Ann Puckett
    I think this is a worthwhile effort you are embarking on. However, I don t think awarding with certificates/monetary types of things is the way to go. Then
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 12, 2006
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      I think this is a worthwhile effort you are embarking on. However, I don't think awarding with certificates/monetary types of things is the way to go. Then they are mearly wearing their uniform for the prize, not the purpose. I look forward to reading responses to your effort and if anyone has had success in this area.

      One way we (our Troop) instills pride in the uniform is by adults setting the example, we have 3 adults who wear their uniform to every meeting and outing.

      I think encouraging boys to wear their uniform to school on meeting days is a great effort but I can see where you will come across many challenges. What about wearing the unfiorm to church on Sunday's? Any other ideas? My goal is to have the uniform worn at all meetings and outings (when possible for outings) beyond that - I'm not quite sure.

      Ann Puckett
      Troop 209
      Grand Rapids, MI

      Willis Madden <willis.madden@...> wrote:

      I am working with a troop in Northern Va, and have embarked on a
      campaign in the last 3 weeks, to encourage our Scouts to wear their
      Uniforms to school on the day of their meetings (every Monday). It may
      not seem like a big deal, but when you think about it, it is to the
      boys.

      When we started the campaign, I asked for a scout to come up to the
      front. When he did, I asked him to face to the left, and asked the
      troop what they saw. They said `the flag', after which I asked
      them if they were proud of that flag (of course they all said yes), and
      I then asked them if they were ashamed or embarrassed of the flag, or of
      what it stood for (of course they said NO). We discussed a little more
      about Boy Scouts standing for doing what was right, helping other
      people, doing good things, etc, and I asked them if those were things to
      be ashamed of. After they were all wound up with this pride in
      scouting, we asked them to wear their uniforms to school on the day of
      the meetings. They were all quiet….

      The boys are usually proud that they are scouts, but when you
      mention that you'd like them to wear their uniform to school, that
      pride seems to be overpowered by a sudden explosion of
      embarrassment….???? I know that (other) kids can be (read ARE)
      cruel and the boys are worried about being made fun of, but that's
      exactly what I want them to rise above. I want them to develop that
      pride and sense of self esteem, and self assurance that will allow them
      to comeback to any quips they may get with their own witty response.

      My own son, while wearing his uniform at school after we issued the
      challenge, had a boy make a smart comment to him. It might not have
      been a scouty thing to do, but I showed him how to turn it around and
      shoot a comment right back that would turn the tables, and make the
      other kid look as silly or sillier than he was trying to make my son
      look. But at least he was wearing his uniform, and overcame that stigma
      of "I cant do that"

      At the last 3 metings, we've called up all of the boys who wore
      their uniforms to school, and given them a special prize. First 2
      meetings were Chick-Fil-A cards for a free Combo Meal, and there were
      about 3 takers the first week, and about 8 the second week. This last
      meeting was going to be Coupons for a local skate shop and 1 would get a
      $10 gift card to that shop, but no one wore their uniform to school.

      So here's the question… Has anyone else worked with their
      boys on a way to instill the sort of pride in scouting that will
      overcome the perceived stigma of wearing a uniform out in public where
      `my friends might see me'? Any Ideas on how to make this
      program more meaningful to the boys, or how to make more of an impact on
      their decision making to empower them to be more bold in showing their
      scout pride?

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Connie Knie
      To be quite honest with you I don t believe anything we do can over come the pressures of their peers. It might not be a pressure to fit in exactly but
      Message 2 of 21 , Dec 12, 2006
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        To be quite honest with you I don't believe anything we do can over come the pressures of their peers. It might not be a pressure to fit in exactly but definitely not wanting to stand out in a way that may bring on derision. Call is a survival tactic.
        I am not sure we need to have our boys show their pride by wearing their uniforms. We know the pride is there when they come to meetings and in the way they conduct themselves in their every day lives.
        My sons will both wear the fiedl uniform (is that the class B I can never remember but I am trying) to school and it does identify them as scouts and don't feel any qualms about wearing the utility uniform out in public but just not to school.

        Willis Madden <willis.madden@...> wrote:

        I

        So here's the question… Has anyone else worked with their
        boys on a way to instill the sort of pride in scouting that will
        overcome the perceived stigma of wearing a uniform out in public where
        `my friends might see me'? Any Ideas on how to make this
        program more meaningful to the boys, or how to make more of an impact on
        their decision making to empower them to be more bold in showing their
        scout pride?



        [


        connie

        SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Willis Madden
        I cant quite agree with the nothing we do can overcome peer pressure . I fought with this philosophy in Girl Scouts as well. A lot of adults dont want to
        Message 3 of 21 , Dec 12, 2006
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          I cant quite agree with the 'nothing we do can overcome peer
          pressure'. I fought with this philosophy in Girl Scouts as well. A lot
          of adults dont want to move the scouts out of their "comfort zone", dont
          make waves, we cant compete with peer pressure. I think scouting should
          be one place that they can learn to deal with peer pressure.

          One of the problems I'm dealing with in this troop, is that these
          boys havent been "built up", Taught, or "indoctrinated" from an early
          age to wear their uniforms in an 'out of comfort zone' environment like
          school. Its easy to wear the uniform to meetings, outings, church
          (thats like extended family)...its another thing to wear it to school,
          or Wal-Mart. Willingness to do this shows your true pride/lack of
          embarrassment to be a scout. I think that one thing that can be done
          for the future is to instil that pride early, and reinforce there sense
          of being based on their values, not the perceptions of their peers.
          Will we TOTALLY overcome peer pressure...Of course not....but can we
          develop youth that can look at the bigger picture, and realize that what
          they believe in is important, and that their uniform is a representation
          of that, and stand up for what they believe in by wearing it publicly/in
          front of their 'friends'.....I think so.


          --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Connie Knie <cknie23100@...> wrote:
          >
          > To be quite honest with you I don't believe anything we do can over
          come the pressures of their peers. It might not be a pressure to fit in
          exactly but definitely not wanting to stand out in a way that may bring
          on derision. Call is a survival tactic.
          > I am not sure we need to have our boys show their pride by wearing
          their uniforms. We know the pride is there when they come to meetings
          and in the way they conduct themselves in their every day lives.
          > My sons will both wear the fiedl uniform (is that the class B I can
          never remember but I am trying) to school and it does identify them as
          scouts and don't feel any qualms about wearing the utility uniform out
          in public but just not to school.
          >
          > Willis Madden willis.madden@... wrote:
          >
          > I
          >
          > So here's the question… Has anyone else worked with their
          > boys on a way to instill the sort of pride in scouting that will
          > overcome the perceived stigma of wearing a uniform out in public where
          > `my friends might see me'? Any Ideas on how to make this
          > program more meaningful to the boys, or how to make more of an impact
          on
          > their decision making to empower them to be more bold in showing their
          > scout pride?
          >
          >
          >
          > [
          >
          >
          > connie
          >
          > SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Jeff Blakemore
          Not to be cruel, but are the adults willing to wear their uniforms to work? It is not too far different from what you are asking the boys. YIS ~Jeff [Non-text
          Message 4 of 21 , Dec 13, 2006
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            Not to be cruel, but are the adults willing to wear their uniforms to work?
            It is not too far different from what you are asking the boys.



            YIS
            ~Jeff



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Connie Knie
            I believe that Scouting can be the arena for teaching boys to overcome peer pressure in many aspects of their lives but there are certain arenas that, even
            Message 5 of 21 , Dec 13, 2006
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              I believe that Scouting can be the arena for teaching boys to overcome peer pressure in many aspects of their lives but there are certain arenas that, even bribery, cannot be breeched. I know boys who are intensly proud to be scouts but they will not wear their uniforms to school. Both of my sons were the boys who wore their uniforms to school on den meeting nights and pack meeting nights but that ended when they reached middle school. It does not reflect, in my opinion, their lack of pride.
              I do not believe as adults we comprehend, sometimes, the level of cruelty that children can subject other children to. If this can be avoided by not wearing a uniform to school, then so be it. Middle school especially has so many challenges that I don't choose to pressure my boys into making it that much harder.

              Willis Madden <willis.madden@...> wrote:

              I cant quite agree with the 'nothing we do can overcome peer
              pressure'. I fought with this philosophy in Girl Scouts as well. A lot
              of adults dont want to move the scouts out of their "comfort zone", dont
              make waves, we cant compete with peer pressure. I think scouting should
              be one place that they can learn to deal with peer pressure.

              One of the problems I'm dealing with in this troop, is that these
              boys havent been "built up", Taught, or "indoctrinated" from an early
              age to wear their uniforms in an 'out of comfort zone' environment like
              school. Its easy to wear the uniform to meetings, outings, church
              (thats like extended family)...its another thing to wear it to school,
              or Wal-Mart. Willingness to do this shows your true pride/lack of
              embarrassment to be a scout. I think that one thing that can be done
              for the future is to instil that pride early, and reinforce there sense
              of being based on their values, not the perceptions of their peers.
              Will we TOTALLY overcome peer pressure...Of course not....but can we
              develop youth that can look at the bigger picture, and realize that what
              they believe in is important, and that their uniform is a representation
              of that, and stand up for what they believe in by wearing it publicly/in
              front of their 'friends'.....I think so.



              connie

              SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Connie Knie
              Actually yes, I have been known to wear mine to work..............adults respect you for it, kids do not respect other kids. And actually if it were just that
              Message 6 of 21 , Dec 13, 2006
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                Actually yes, I have been known to wear mine to work..............adults respect you for it, kids do not respect other kids. And actually if it were just that they did not respect each other it would be ok but they take it so much further...........

                Jeff Blakemore <jeff@...> wrote: Not to be cruel, but are the adults willing to wear their uniforms to work?
                It is not too far different from what you are asking the boys.



                YIS
                ~Jeff





                connie

                SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Dave Loomis
                Well, I ve worn mine to my UU church on Scout Sunday. Most of the comments I got were favorable. Dave ... Dave Loomis mailto:dloomis.nh.ultranet@rcn.com 245
                Message 7 of 21 , Dec 13, 2006
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                  Well, I've worn mine to my UU church on Scout Sunday. Most of
                  the comments I got were favorable.

                  Dave

                  Jeff Blakemore wrote:
                  > Not to be cruel, but are the adults willing to wear their uniforms to work?
                  > It is not too far different from what you are asking the boys.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > YIS
                  > ~Jeff
                  >
                  Dave Loomis mailto:dloomis.nh.ultranet@...
                  245 Union St.,# 4 603 431 5342
                  Portsmouth, NH 03801-4349
                • NeilLup@aol.com
                  ... post. BP early on had proposed an additional Scout Law A Scout is not a Fool. By this he meant that a Scout did not so slavishly follow the Scout Oath
                  Message 8 of 21 , Dec 13, 2006
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                    In a message dated 12/13/06 7:32:49 AM, cknie23100@... writes:


                    >
                    > I believe that Scouting can be the arena for teaching boys to overcome peer
                    > pressure in many aspects of their lives but there are certain arenas that,
                    > even bribery, cannot be breeched.
                    > (snip)
                    > I do not believe as adults we comprehend, sometimes, the level of cruelty
                    > that children can subject other children to. If this can be avoided by not
                    > wearing a uniform to school, then so be it. Middle school especially has so many
                    > challenges that I don't choose to pressure my boys into making it that much
                    > harder.
                    >
                    > I wrote separately to Willis, but I wanted to concur totally with this
                    post.

                    BP early on had proposed an additional Scout Law "A Scout is not a Fool."
                    By this he meant that a Scout did not so slavishly follow the Scout Oath and
                    Scout Law that he would allow others to take advantage of him because of his
                    trustworthiness, loyalty, obedience, etc.

                    I believe that there are a number of ways to build and demonstrate Scout
                    Pride which can be neutral or even positive to one's peers. For example, in
                    my private post to Willis, I mentioned getting to meet the President.
                    Similarly, if one got to carry the flag or be a uniformed usher at a prestigious
                    sports event and could only do it if one were in uniform, that would be
                    just fine.

                    But, of course, that means a LOT of work for the adults in setting it up.
                    And setting up a continuing (not one-time) thing like this is enormous work
                    for the adults.

                    In contrast, it is no work at all for the adults and no skin off the nose
                    of the adult to set up a situation where the Scout has to choose between the
                    embarrassment of wearing his uniform to school and the embarrassment at a Scout
                    meeting if he did NOT wear his uniform to school. That's a true no-win
                    situation for the child with no benefit that I can see for a middle school aged
                    child. It strikes me as an excellent way to drive out those children who have
                    peer relations and only leave the ones whose status is strong that they can
                    disregard peer pressure or who are such outcasts that they have nothing to
                    lose.

                    In my opinion, trying to crack the peer status situation for most middle
                    school children by encouraging wear of the uniform to school is like trying to
                    push a rope. There are too many factors conspiring against one and, in the
                    child's eyes, NO BENEFIT TO THE CHILD FOR DOING IT. There undoubtedly is a
                    perceived benefit to the adult who feels that he has cracked the youth peer
                    status system. But, I would respectfully ask, is that using children and
                    trifling with children's feelings and sensitivities for adult benefit.

                    In my opinion, much to lose and not much to gain. If the swamp we are
                    trying to drain is building Scout Pride, then I think the other ways that I have
                    mentioned, namely getting to do prestigious and desirable things because
                    one is a Scout is the way to go. But that's a lot more work, requires more
                    burning of personal chips and probably less personally rewarding for the adult
                    in question.

                    Best wishes,

                    Neil Lupton


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Leslie
                    I ve done it. ... Leslie ... From: Jeff Blakemore To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 5:45 AM Subject: [Scouter_T] Re:Teaching
                    Message 9 of 21 , Dec 13, 2006
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                      I've done it.
                      ---
                      Leslie

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Jeff Blakemore
                      To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 5:45 AM
                      Subject: [Scouter_T] Re:Teaching Scout Pride


                      Not to be cruel, but are the adults willing to wear their uniforms to work?
                      It is not too far different from what you are asking the boys.

                      YIS
                      ~Jeff

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Willis Madden
                      So have I. And I usually have to get permission to. ... uniforms to work?
                      Message 10 of 21 , Dec 13, 2006
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                        So have I. And I usually have to get permission to.

                        --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Leslie" <lbthmi@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I've done it.
                        > ---
                        > Leslie
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: Jeff Blakemore
                        > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 5:45 AM
                        > Subject: [Scouter_T] Re:Teaching Scout Pride
                        >
                        >
                        > Not to be cruel, but are the adults willing to wear their
                        uniforms to work?
                        > It is not too far different from what you are asking the boys.
                        >
                        > YIS
                        > ~Jeff
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Willis Madden
                        Looking forward to getting your message Neil, It hasnt come through yet, but Interesting comments. ... overcome peer ... that, ... cruelty ... by not ... has
                        Message 11 of 21 , Dec 13, 2006
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                          Looking forward to getting your message Neil, It hasnt come through yet,
                          but Interesting comments.


                          --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, NeilLup@... wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > In a message dated 12/13/06 7:32:49 AM, cknie23100@... writes:
                          >
                          >
                          > >
                          > > I believe that Scouting can be the arena for teaching boys to
                          overcome peer
                          > > pressure in many aspects of their lives but there are certain arenas
                          that,
                          > > even bribery, cannot be breeched.
                          > > (snip)
                          > > I do not believe as adults we comprehend, sometimes, the level of
                          cruelty
                          > > that children can subject other children to. If this can be avoided
                          by not
                          > > wearing a uniform to school, then so be it. Middle school especially
                          has so many
                          > > challenges that I don't choose to pressure my boys into making it
                          that much
                          > > harder.
                          > >
                          > > I wrote separately to Willis, but I wanted to concur totally with
                          this
                          > post.
                          >
                          > BP early on had proposed an additional Scout Law "A Scout is not a
                          Fool."
                          > By this he meant that a Scout did not so slavishly follow the Scout
                          Oath and
                          > Scout Law that he would allow others to take advantage of him because
                          of his
                          > trustworthiness, loyalty, obedience, etc.
                          >
                          > I believe that there are a number of ways to build and demonstrate
                          Scout
                          > Pride which can be neutral or even positive to one's peers. For
                          example, in
                          > my private post to Willis, I mentioned getting to meet the President.
                          > Similarly, if one got to carry the flag or be a uniformed usher at a
                          prestigious
                          > sports event and could only do it if one were in uniform, that would
                          be
                          > just fine.
                          >
                          > But, of course, that means a LOT of work for the adults in setting it
                          up.
                          > And setting up a continuing (not one-time) thing like this is enormous
                          work
                          > for the adults.
                          >
                          > In contrast, it is no work at all for the adults and no skin off the
                          nose
                          > of the adult to set up a situation where the Scout has to choose
                          between the
                          > embarrassment of wearing his uniform to school and the embarrassment
                          at a Scout
                          > meeting if he did NOT wear his uniform to school. That's a true no-win
                          > situation for the child with no benefit that I can see for a middle
                          school aged
                          > child. It strikes me as an excellent way to drive out those children
                          who have
                          > peer relations and only leave the ones whose status is strong that
                          they can
                          > disregard peer pressure or who are such outcasts that they have
                          nothing to
                          > lose.
                          >
                          > In my opinion, trying to crack the peer status situation for most
                          middle
                          > school children by encouraging wear of the uniform to school is like
                          trying to
                          > push a rope. There are too many factors conspiring against one and, in
                          the
                          > child's eyes, NO BENEFIT TO THE CHILD FOR DOING IT. There undoubtedly
                          is a
                          > perceived benefit to the adult who feels that he has cracked the youth
                          peer
                          > status system. But, I would respectfully ask, is that using children
                          and
                          > trifling with children's feelings and sensitivities for adult benefit.
                          >
                          > In my opinion, much to lose and not much to gain. If the swamp we are
                          > trying to drain is building Scout Pride, then I think the other ways
                          that I have
                          > mentioned, namely getting to do prestigious and desirable things
                          because
                          > one is a Scout is the way to go. But that's a lot more work, requires
                          more
                          > burning of personal chips and probably less personally rewarding for
                          the adult
                          > in question.
                          >
                          > Best wishes,
                          >
                          > Neil Lupton
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Scouter Chuck
                          Connie Knie wrote: [snip] ... There are many things that younger children can get away with, that older ones cannot. For younger children, Oh, isn t that
                          Message 12 of 21 , Dec 13, 2006
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                            Connie Knie wrote:

                            [snip]
                            > I do not believe as adults we comprehend, sometimes, the level of
                            > cruelty that children can subject other children to. If this can be
                            > avoided by not wearing a uniform to school, then so be it. Middle
                            > school especially has so many challenges that I don't choose to
                            > pressure my boys into making it that much harder.

                            There are many things that younger children can get away with, that
                            older ones cannot. For younger children, "Oh, isn't that cute!" may
                            become "Isn't it time you grew up?" for an older child.

                            There is another aspect of this that has not yet been approached. I
                            know there are a great many teachers who are dedicated to doing the
                            best job they can to help children learn. There are also a number of
                            teachers that consider their students to be their own to mold, and to
                            indoctrinate or teach things that many of us oppose.

                            To reflect on what I've quoted above, I don't believe that we as
                            Scouter-adults can comprehend the level of cruelty that some of the
                            _teachers_ or administration can subject the children to. It's one
                            thing to be cornered on the playground and hassled -- it's quite
                            another to be called out in front of the class and humiliated for even
                            being a Scout. Or for any other reason.

                            While it would not be tolerated for a teacher to do that to a child
                            because of race or religion, it appears that it wouldn't be considered
                            "any big deal" if the child was a Scout.

                            YiS,

                            Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
                            I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
                            Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
                            Committee Member at Large, Roundtable Staff -- Member DNRC
                            ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                            "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
                            -- Stephen R. Covey
                            ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                          • Connie Knie
                            That thought absolutely terrifies me............ But to put a nice spin on this conversation. My senior did wear his uniform for one of the outfits for his
                            Message 13 of 21 , Dec 14, 2006
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                              That thought absolutely terrifies me............

                              But to put a nice spin on this conversation. My senior did wear his uniform for one of the outfits for his senior picture!!! He looks wonderful...........

                              Scouter Chuck <antelope95@...> wrote:
                              Connie Knie wrote:

                              [snip]
                              > I do not believe as adults we comprehend, sometimes, the level of
                              > cruelty that children can subject other children to. If this can be
                              > avoided by not wearing a uniform to school, then so be it. Middle
                              > school especially has so many challenges that I don't choose to
                              > pressure my boys into making it that much harder.

                              There are many things that younger children can get away with, that
                              older ones cannot. For younger children, "Oh, isn't that cute!" may
                              become "Isn't it time you grew up?" for an older child.

                              There is another aspect of this that has not yet been approached. I
                              know there are a great many teachers who are dedicated to doing the
                              best job they can to help children learn. There are also a number of
                              teachers that consider their students to be their own to mold, and to
                              indoctrinate or teach things that many of us oppose.

                              To reflect on what I've quoted above, I don't believe that we as
                              Scouter-adults can comprehend the level of cruelty that some of the
                              _teachers_ or administration can subject the children to. It's one
                              thing to be cornered on the playground and hassled -- it's quite
                              another to be called out in front of the class and humiliated for even
                              being a Scout. Or for any other reason.

                              While it would not be tolerated for a teacher to do that to a child
                              because of race or religion, it appears that it wouldn't be considered
                              "any big deal" if the child was a Scout.

                              YiS,

                              Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
                              I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
                              Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
                              Committee Member at Large, Roundtable Staff -- Member DNRC
                              ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                              "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
                              -- Stephen R. Covey
                              ----------------------------------------------------------------------



                              connie

                              SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/


                              connie

                              SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • beth padnos
                              I have followed this discussion and have a bit to add. I don t think a person who does not wear a uniform is not proud of being a scout. My son is very proud
                              Message 14 of 21 , Dec 14, 2006
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                                I have followed this discussion and have a bit to add.
                                I don't think a person who does not wear a uniform is not proud of being a scout. My son is very proud to be a scout, the things he has done and plans to do. He just made Life Scout Tuesday night, is very active in the troop as ASPL, goes to camp and a provisional week each summer, currently has 39 merit badges, is OA, marches in our color guard in parades, etc, etc.
                                The same boy (for the longest time) only wore class B t-shirts as his daily attire, however won't wear his class A unifrom to school.
                                I think the big difference is that a t-shirt can show his membership/pride but is not so unusual that he sticks out.
                                Beth Padnos



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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • NeilLup@aol.com
                                ... Hello Connie, My understanding is that for boys of younger Cub Scout age, the idea of wearing the uniform is pretty neat and then when they get to later
                                Message 15 of 21 , Dec 14, 2006
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                                  In a message dated 12/14/06 7:36:41 AM, cknie23100@... writes:


                                  >
                                  >
                                  > That thought absolutely terrifies me..........
                                  >
                                  > But to put a nice spin on this conversation. My senior did wear his uniform
                                  > for one of the outfits for his senior picture!!! He looks wonderful... But
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >

                                  Hello Connie,

                                  My understanding is that for boys of younger Cub Scout age, the idea of
                                  wearing the uniform is pretty neat and then when they get to later high school,
                                  it is OK again for the ones who have stayed with it. It is at middle
                                  school and early Boy Scouts when peer pressure and "anti-Scout uniform" is highest.

                                  Best wishes,

                                  Neil Lupton


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                                • Dan Kurtenbach
                                  Is this a training topic, by the way? Seems more appropriate for Scouts-L or Boy-Scout-Talk or some other forum . . . At middle school age, boys are in a
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Dec 14, 2006
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                                    Is this a training topic, by the way? Seems more appropriate for Scouts-L
                                    or Boy-Scout-Talk or some other forum . . .

                                    At middle school age, boys are in a stage of development where they are very
                                    attuned to their peer groups and the widely accepted likes, dislikes, and
                                    opinions of those groups. To the extent something is highly regarded by
                                    their group, it is cool to be seen as associating themselves with it. To
                                    the extent something is not highly regarded by the peer groupthink, kids
                                    don't want to be _seen_ as associating with it. Sports are cool, so sports
                                    uniforms are widely accepted. Scouting is generally not seen as a cool
                                    activity, so even boys who love Scouting ditch their uniforms in public (as
                                    do private school kids, band kids, etc.). As they get older and hit the
                                    middle/upper teenage years, boys have a much more developed identity of
                                    their own that relies less on peer groupthink, and thus they have the
                                    confidence to be more non-conformist.

                                    Dan Kurtenbach
                                    Fairfax, VA
                                  • Gerry Moon
                                    I typically bring my uniform in to work and change in the last hour of the day so I can drive straight to Roundtable or a Pack Meeting when the need arises.
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Dec 14, 2006
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                                      I typically bring my uniform in to work and change in the last hour of
                                      the day so I can drive straight to Roundtable or a Pack Meeting when
                                      the need arises. I'm pretty sure just about everyone in my office has
                                      seen me in uniform. I'm not sure I'd wear it all day unless there was
                                      a specific reason to do so. I don't have a problem having it on in
                                      front of my colleagues and ignore any cutesy comments I might get from
                                      the knuckleheads.

                                      Wearing uniform to school - I have some kids who will, others who
                                      won't. When I was a Cubmaster I pushed uniforms constantly - activity
                                      uniforms for Den meetings and field uniforms for Pack Meetings and any
                                      other public events. My successor isn't so much of a uniform person -
                                      and it shows in the Pack. Fewer and fewer kids show up in uniform
                                      these days.

                                      Gerry Moon
                                      Orlando, FL

                                      --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Blakemore" <jeff@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Not to be cruel, but are the adults willing to wear their uniforms
                                      to work?
                                      > It is not too far different from what you are asking the boys.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > YIS
                                      > ~Jeff
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                    • Gerry Moon
                                      I typically bring my uniform in to work and change in the last hour of the day so I can drive straight to Roundtable or a Pack Meeting when the need arises.
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Dec 14, 2006
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                                        I typically bring my uniform in to work and change in the last hour of
                                        the day so I can drive straight to Roundtable or a Pack Meeting when
                                        the need arises. I'm pretty sure just about everyone in my office has
                                        seen me in uniform. I'm not sure I'd wear it all day unless there was
                                        a specific reason to do so. I don't have a problem having it on in
                                        front of my colleagues and ignore any cutesy comments I might get from
                                        the knuckleheads.

                                        Wearing uniform to school - I have some kids who will, others who
                                        won't. When I was a Cubmaster I pushed uniforms constantly - activity
                                        uniforms for Den meetings and field uniforms for Pack Meetings and any
                                        other public events. My successor isn't so much of a uniform person -
                                        and it shows in the Pack. Fewer and fewer kids show up in uniform
                                        these days.

                                        Gerry Moon
                                        Orlando, FL

                                        --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Blakemore" <jeff@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Not to be cruel, but are the adults willing to wear their uniforms
                                        to work?
                                        > It is not too far different from what you are asking the boys.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > YIS
                                        > ~Jeff
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                      • Gerry Moon
                                        I d like to see the 13th point of the Scout Law become A Scout is punctual ... Gerry Moon Orlando, FL ... overcome peer ... arenas that, ... of cruelty ...
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Dec 14, 2006
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                                          I'd like to see the 13th point of the Scout Law become "A Scout is
                                          punctual"...

                                          Gerry Moon
                                          Orlando, FL

                                          --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, NeilLup@... wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > In a message dated 12/13/06 7:32:49 AM, cknie23100@... writes:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          > > I believe that Scouting can be the arena for teaching boys to
                                          overcome peer
                                          > > pressure in many aspects of their lives but there are certain
                                          arenas that,
                                          > > even bribery, cannot be breeched.
                                          > > (snip)
                                          > > I do not believe as adults we comprehend, sometimes, the level
                                          of cruelty
                                          > > that children can subject other children to. If this can be
                                          avoided by not
                                          > > wearing a uniform to school, then so be it. Middle school
                                          especially has so many
                                          > > challenges that I don't choose to pressure my boys into making
                                          it that much
                                          > > harder.
                                          > >
                                          > > I wrote separately to Willis, but I wanted to concur totally
                                          with this
                                          > post.
                                          >
                                          > BP early on had proposed an additional Scout Law "A Scout is not
                                          a Fool."
                                          > By this he meant that a Scout did not so slavishly follow the
                                          Scout Oath and
                                          > Scout Law that he would allow others to take advantage of him
                                          because of his
                                          > trustworthiness, loyalty, obedience, etc.
                                          >
                                          > I believe that there are a number of ways to build and demonstrate
                                          Scout
                                          > Pride which can be neutral or even positive to one's peers. For
                                          example, in
                                          > my private post to Willis, I mentioned getting to meet the
                                          President.
                                          > Similarly, if one got to carry the flag or be a uniformed usher
                                          at a prestigious
                                          > sports event and could only do it if one were in uniform, that
                                          would be
                                          > just fine.
                                          >
                                          > But, of course, that means a LOT of work for the adults in
                                          setting it up.
                                          > And setting up a continuing (not one-time) thing like this is
                                          enormous work
                                          > for the adults.
                                          >
                                          > In contrast, it is no work at all for the adults and no skin off
                                          the nose
                                          > of the adult to set up a situation where the Scout has to choose
                                          between the
                                          > embarrassment of wearing his uniform to school and the
                                          embarrassment at a Scout
                                          > meeting if he did NOT wear his uniform to school. That's a true
                                          no-win
                                          > situation for the child with no benefit that I can see for a
                                          middle school aged
                                          > child. It strikes me as an excellent way to drive out those
                                          children who have
                                          > peer relations and only leave the ones whose status is strong that
                                          they can
                                          > disregard peer pressure or who are such outcasts that they have
                                          nothing to
                                          > lose.
                                          >
                                          > In my opinion, trying to crack the peer status situation for
                                          most middle
                                          > school children by encouraging wear of the uniform to school is
                                          like trying to
                                          > push a rope. There are too many factors conspiring against one
                                          and, in the
                                          > child's eyes, NO BENEFIT TO THE CHILD FOR DOING IT. There
                                          undoubtedly is a
                                          > perceived benefit to the adult who feels that he has cracked the
                                          youth peer
                                          > status system. But, I would respectfully ask, is that using
                                          children and
                                          > trifling with children's feelings and sensitivities for adult
                                          benefit.
                                          >
                                          > In my opinion, much to lose and not much to gain. If the swamp
                                          we are
                                          > trying to drain is building Scout Pride, then I think the other
                                          ways that I have
                                          > mentioned, namely getting to do prestigious and desirable things
                                          because
                                          > one is a Scout is the way to go. But that's a lot more work,
                                          requires more
                                          > burning of personal chips and probably less personally rewarding
                                          for the adult
                                          > in question.
                                          >
                                          > Best wishes,
                                          >
                                          > Neil Lupton
                                          >
                                          >
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                                          >
                                        • Terilianne@aol.com
                                          And on the flip side, Our school system last year celebrated scouting by having a Scouting Day on which all scouts (girl, boy, venture crew, explorer etc)
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Dec 14, 2006
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                                            And on the flip side,
                                            Our school system last year celebrated scouting by having a Scouting Day
                                            on which all scouts (girl, boy, venture crew, explorer etc) were encouraged to
                                            wear their uniforms and were recognized during morning announcements. Their
                                            efforts school wide were applauded in fund raising, building improvement
                                            projects at local parks, disaster relief projects and helping at various
                                            shelters and nursing homes in our area. And this is a public school. Of course our
                                            school board has some scouts (both boy and girl) on it to help encourage
                                            rather than disparage. Our local paper routinely promotes our scouting events
                                            (boy and girl) because we send out "publicity" from our packs, troops, crews
                                            and posts to let our community know about our presence.

                                            Teri


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