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Teaching Scout Pride

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  • Willis Madden
    I am working with a troop in Northern Va, and have embarked on a campaign in the last 3 weeks, to encourage our Scouts to wear their Uniforms to school on the
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 12, 2006
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      I am working with a troop in Northern Va, and have embarked on a
      campaign in the last 3 weeks, to encourage our Scouts to wear their
      Uniforms to school on the day of their meetings (every Monday). It may
      not seem like a big deal, but when you think about it, it is to the
      boys.



      When we started the campaign, I asked for a scout to come up to the
      front. When he did, I asked him to face to the left, and asked the
      troop what they saw. They said `the flag', after which I asked
      them if they were proud of that flag (of course they all said yes), and
      I then asked them if they were ashamed or embarrassed of the flag, or of
      what it stood for (of course they said NO). We discussed a little more
      about Boy Scouts standing for doing what was right, helping other
      people, doing good things, etc, and I asked them if those were things to
      be ashamed of. After they were all wound up with this pride in
      scouting, we asked them to wear their uniforms to school on the day of
      the meetings. They were all quiet….



      The boys are usually proud that they are scouts, but when you
      mention that you'd like them to wear their uniform to school, that
      pride seems to be overpowered by a sudden explosion of
      embarrassment….???? I know that (other) kids can be (read ARE)
      cruel and the boys are worried about being made fun of, but that's
      exactly what I want them to rise above. I want them to develop that
      pride and sense of self esteem, and self assurance that will allow them
      to comeback to any quips they may get with their own witty response.



      My own son, while wearing his uniform at school after we issued the
      challenge, had a boy make a smart comment to him. It might not have
      been a scouty thing to do, but I showed him how to turn it around and
      shoot a comment right back that would turn the tables, and make the
      other kid look as silly or sillier than he was trying to make my son
      look. But at least he was wearing his uniform, and overcame that stigma
      of "I cant do that"



      At the last 3 metings, we've called up all of the boys who wore
      their uniforms to school, and given them a special prize. First 2
      meetings were Chick-Fil-A cards for a free Combo Meal, and there were
      about 3 takers the first week, and about 8 the second week. This last
      meeting was going to be Coupons for a local skate shop and 1 would get a
      $10 gift card to that shop, but no one wore their uniform to school.



      So here's the question… Has anyone else worked with their
      boys on a way to instill the sort of pride in scouting that will
      overcome the perceived stigma of wearing a uniform out in public where
      `my friends might see me'? Any Ideas on how to make this
      program more meaningful to the boys, or how to make more of an impact on
      their decision making to empower them to be more bold in showing their
      scout pride?



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ann Puckett
      I think this is a worthwhile effort you are embarking on. However, I don t think awarding with certificates/monetary types of things is the way to go. Then
      Message 2 of 21 , Dec 12, 2006
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        I think this is a worthwhile effort you are embarking on. However, I don't think awarding with certificates/monetary types of things is the way to go. Then they are mearly wearing their uniform for the prize, not the purpose. I look forward to reading responses to your effort and if anyone has had success in this area.

        One way we (our Troop) instills pride in the uniform is by adults setting the example, we have 3 adults who wear their uniform to every meeting and outing.

        I think encouraging boys to wear their uniform to school on meeting days is a great effort but I can see where you will come across many challenges. What about wearing the unfiorm to church on Sunday's? Any other ideas? My goal is to have the uniform worn at all meetings and outings (when possible for outings) beyond that - I'm not quite sure.

        Ann Puckett
        Troop 209
        Grand Rapids, MI

        Willis Madden <willis.madden@...> wrote:

        I am working with a troop in Northern Va, and have embarked on a
        campaign in the last 3 weeks, to encourage our Scouts to wear their
        Uniforms to school on the day of their meetings (every Monday). It may
        not seem like a big deal, but when you think about it, it is to the
        boys.

        When we started the campaign, I asked for a scout to come up to the
        front. When he did, I asked him to face to the left, and asked the
        troop what they saw. They said `the flag', after which I asked
        them if they were proud of that flag (of course they all said yes), and
        I then asked them if they were ashamed or embarrassed of the flag, or of
        what it stood for (of course they said NO). We discussed a little more
        about Boy Scouts standing for doing what was right, helping other
        people, doing good things, etc, and I asked them if those were things to
        be ashamed of. After they were all wound up with this pride in
        scouting, we asked them to wear their uniforms to school on the day of
        the meetings. They were all quiet….

        The boys are usually proud that they are scouts, but when you
        mention that you'd like them to wear their uniform to school, that
        pride seems to be overpowered by a sudden explosion of
        embarrassment….???? I know that (other) kids can be (read ARE)
        cruel and the boys are worried about being made fun of, but that's
        exactly what I want them to rise above. I want them to develop that
        pride and sense of self esteem, and self assurance that will allow them
        to comeback to any quips they may get with their own witty response.

        My own son, while wearing his uniform at school after we issued the
        challenge, had a boy make a smart comment to him. It might not have
        been a scouty thing to do, but I showed him how to turn it around and
        shoot a comment right back that would turn the tables, and make the
        other kid look as silly or sillier than he was trying to make my son
        look. But at least he was wearing his uniform, and overcame that stigma
        of "I cant do that"

        At the last 3 metings, we've called up all of the boys who wore
        their uniforms to school, and given them a special prize. First 2
        meetings were Chick-Fil-A cards for a free Combo Meal, and there were
        about 3 takers the first week, and about 8 the second week. This last
        meeting was going to be Coupons for a local skate shop and 1 would get a
        $10 gift card to that shop, but no one wore their uniform to school.

        So here's the question… Has anyone else worked with their
        boys on a way to instill the sort of pride in scouting that will
        overcome the perceived stigma of wearing a uniform out in public where
        `my friends might see me'? Any Ideas on how to make this
        program more meaningful to the boys, or how to make more of an impact on
        their decision making to empower them to be more bold in showing their
        scout pride?

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






        ---------------------------------
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Connie Knie
        To be quite honest with you I don t believe anything we do can over come the pressures of their peers. It might not be a pressure to fit in exactly but
        Message 3 of 21 , Dec 12, 2006
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          To be quite honest with you I don't believe anything we do can over come the pressures of their peers. It might not be a pressure to fit in exactly but definitely not wanting to stand out in a way that may bring on derision. Call is a survival tactic.
          I am not sure we need to have our boys show their pride by wearing their uniforms. We know the pride is there when they come to meetings and in the way they conduct themselves in their every day lives.
          My sons will both wear the fiedl uniform (is that the class B I can never remember but I am trying) to school and it does identify them as scouts and don't feel any qualms about wearing the utility uniform out in public but just not to school.

          Willis Madden <willis.madden@...> wrote:

          I

          So here's the question… Has anyone else worked with their
          boys on a way to instill the sort of pride in scouting that will
          overcome the perceived stigma of wearing a uniform out in public where
          `my friends might see me'? Any Ideas on how to make this
          program more meaningful to the boys, or how to make more of an impact on
          their decision making to empower them to be more bold in showing their
          scout pride?



          [


          connie

          SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Willis Madden
          I cant quite agree with the nothing we do can overcome peer pressure . I fought with this philosophy in Girl Scouts as well. A lot of adults dont want to
          Message 4 of 21 , Dec 12, 2006
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            I cant quite agree with the 'nothing we do can overcome peer
            pressure'. I fought with this philosophy in Girl Scouts as well. A lot
            of adults dont want to move the scouts out of their "comfort zone", dont
            make waves, we cant compete with peer pressure. I think scouting should
            be one place that they can learn to deal with peer pressure.

            One of the problems I'm dealing with in this troop, is that these
            boys havent been "built up", Taught, or "indoctrinated" from an early
            age to wear their uniforms in an 'out of comfort zone' environment like
            school. Its easy to wear the uniform to meetings, outings, church
            (thats like extended family)...its another thing to wear it to school,
            or Wal-Mart. Willingness to do this shows your true pride/lack of
            embarrassment to be a scout. I think that one thing that can be done
            for the future is to instil that pride early, and reinforce there sense
            of being based on their values, not the perceptions of their peers.
            Will we TOTALLY overcome peer pressure...Of course not....but can we
            develop youth that can look at the bigger picture, and realize that what
            they believe in is important, and that their uniform is a representation
            of that, and stand up for what they believe in by wearing it publicly/in
            front of their 'friends'.....I think so.


            --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Connie Knie <cknie23100@...> wrote:
            >
            > To be quite honest with you I don't believe anything we do can over
            come the pressures of their peers. It might not be a pressure to fit in
            exactly but definitely not wanting to stand out in a way that may bring
            on derision. Call is a survival tactic.
            > I am not sure we need to have our boys show their pride by wearing
            their uniforms. We know the pride is there when they come to meetings
            and in the way they conduct themselves in their every day lives.
            > My sons will both wear the fiedl uniform (is that the class B I can
            never remember but I am trying) to school and it does identify them as
            scouts and don't feel any qualms about wearing the utility uniform out
            in public but just not to school.
            >
            > Willis Madden willis.madden@... wrote:
            >
            > I
            >
            > So here's the question… Has anyone else worked with their
            > boys on a way to instill the sort of pride in scouting that will
            > overcome the perceived stigma of wearing a uniform out in public where
            > `my friends might see me'? Any Ideas on how to make this
            > program more meaningful to the boys, or how to make more of an impact
            on
            > their decision making to empower them to be more bold in showing their
            > scout pride?
            >
            >
            >
            > [
            >
            >
            > connie
            >
            > SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Jeff Blakemore
            Not to be cruel, but are the adults willing to wear their uniforms to work? It is not too far different from what you are asking the boys. YIS ~Jeff [Non-text
            Message 5 of 21 , Dec 13, 2006
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              Not to be cruel, but are the adults willing to wear their uniforms to work?
              It is not too far different from what you are asking the boys.



              YIS
              ~Jeff



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Connie Knie
              I believe that Scouting can be the arena for teaching boys to overcome peer pressure in many aspects of their lives but there are certain arenas that, even
              Message 6 of 21 , Dec 13, 2006
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                I believe that Scouting can be the arena for teaching boys to overcome peer pressure in many aspects of their lives but there are certain arenas that, even bribery, cannot be breeched. I know boys who are intensly proud to be scouts but they will not wear their uniforms to school. Both of my sons were the boys who wore their uniforms to school on den meeting nights and pack meeting nights but that ended when they reached middle school. It does not reflect, in my opinion, their lack of pride.
                I do not believe as adults we comprehend, sometimes, the level of cruelty that children can subject other children to. If this can be avoided by not wearing a uniform to school, then so be it. Middle school especially has so many challenges that I don't choose to pressure my boys into making it that much harder.

                Willis Madden <willis.madden@...> wrote:

                I cant quite agree with the 'nothing we do can overcome peer
                pressure'. I fought with this philosophy in Girl Scouts as well. A lot
                of adults dont want to move the scouts out of their "comfort zone", dont
                make waves, we cant compete with peer pressure. I think scouting should
                be one place that they can learn to deal with peer pressure.

                One of the problems I'm dealing with in this troop, is that these
                boys havent been "built up", Taught, or "indoctrinated" from an early
                age to wear their uniforms in an 'out of comfort zone' environment like
                school. Its easy to wear the uniform to meetings, outings, church
                (thats like extended family)...its another thing to wear it to school,
                or Wal-Mart. Willingness to do this shows your true pride/lack of
                embarrassment to be a scout. I think that one thing that can be done
                for the future is to instil that pride early, and reinforce there sense
                of being based on their values, not the perceptions of their peers.
                Will we TOTALLY overcome peer pressure...Of course not....but can we
                develop youth that can look at the bigger picture, and realize that what
                they believe in is important, and that their uniform is a representation
                of that, and stand up for what they believe in by wearing it publicly/in
                front of their 'friends'.....I think so.



                connie

                SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Connie Knie
                Actually yes, I have been known to wear mine to work..............adults respect you for it, kids do not respect other kids. And actually if it were just that
                Message 7 of 21 , Dec 13, 2006
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                  Actually yes, I have been known to wear mine to work..............adults respect you for it, kids do not respect other kids. And actually if it were just that they did not respect each other it would be ok but they take it so much further...........

                  Jeff Blakemore <jeff@...> wrote: Not to be cruel, but are the adults willing to wear their uniforms to work?
                  It is not too far different from what you are asking the boys.



                  YIS
                  ~Jeff





                  connie

                  SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Dave Loomis
                  Well, I ve worn mine to my UU church on Scout Sunday. Most of the comments I got were favorable. Dave ... Dave Loomis mailto:dloomis.nh.ultranet@rcn.com 245
                  Message 8 of 21 , Dec 13, 2006
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                    Well, I've worn mine to my UU church on Scout Sunday. Most of
                    the comments I got were favorable.

                    Dave

                    Jeff Blakemore wrote:
                    > Not to be cruel, but are the adults willing to wear their uniforms to work?
                    > It is not too far different from what you are asking the boys.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > YIS
                    > ~Jeff
                    >
                    Dave Loomis mailto:dloomis.nh.ultranet@...
                    245 Union St.,# 4 603 431 5342
                    Portsmouth, NH 03801-4349
                  • NeilLup@aol.com
                    ... post. BP early on had proposed an additional Scout Law A Scout is not a Fool. By this he meant that a Scout did not so slavishly follow the Scout Oath
                    Message 9 of 21 , Dec 13, 2006
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                      In a message dated 12/13/06 7:32:49 AM, cknie23100@... writes:


                      >
                      > I believe that Scouting can be the arena for teaching boys to overcome peer
                      > pressure in many aspects of their lives but there are certain arenas that,
                      > even bribery, cannot be breeched.
                      > (snip)
                      > I do not believe as adults we comprehend, sometimes, the level of cruelty
                      > that children can subject other children to. If this can be avoided by not
                      > wearing a uniform to school, then so be it. Middle school especially has so many
                      > challenges that I don't choose to pressure my boys into making it that much
                      > harder.
                      >
                      > I wrote separately to Willis, but I wanted to concur totally with this
                      post.

                      BP early on had proposed an additional Scout Law "A Scout is not a Fool."
                      By this he meant that a Scout did not so slavishly follow the Scout Oath and
                      Scout Law that he would allow others to take advantage of him because of his
                      trustworthiness, loyalty, obedience, etc.

                      I believe that there are a number of ways to build and demonstrate Scout
                      Pride which can be neutral or even positive to one's peers. For example, in
                      my private post to Willis, I mentioned getting to meet the President.
                      Similarly, if one got to carry the flag or be a uniformed usher at a prestigious
                      sports event and could only do it if one were in uniform, that would be
                      just fine.

                      But, of course, that means a LOT of work for the adults in setting it up.
                      And setting up a continuing (not one-time) thing like this is enormous work
                      for the adults.

                      In contrast, it is no work at all for the adults and no skin off the nose
                      of the adult to set up a situation where the Scout has to choose between the
                      embarrassment of wearing his uniform to school and the embarrassment at a Scout
                      meeting if he did NOT wear his uniform to school. That's a true no-win
                      situation for the child with no benefit that I can see for a middle school aged
                      child. It strikes me as an excellent way to drive out those children who have
                      peer relations and only leave the ones whose status is strong that they can
                      disregard peer pressure or who are such outcasts that they have nothing to
                      lose.

                      In my opinion, trying to crack the peer status situation for most middle
                      school children by encouraging wear of the uniform to school is like trying to
                      push a rope. There are too many factors conspiring against one and, in the
                      child's eyes, NO BENEFIT TO THE CHILD FOR DOING IT. There undoubtedly is a
                      perceived benefit to the adult who feels that he has cracked the youth peer
                      status system. But, I would respectfully ask, is that using children and
                      trifling with children's feelings and sensitivities for adult benefit.

                      In my opinion, much to lose and not much to gain. If the swamp we are
                      trying to drain is building Scout Pride, then I think the other ways that I have
                      mentioned, namely getting to do prestigious and desirable things because
                      one is a Scout is the way to go. But that's a lot more work, requires more
                      burning of personal chips and probably less personally rewarding for the adult
                      in question.

                      Best wishes,

                      Neil Lupton


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Leslie
                      I ve done it. ... Leslie ... From: Jeff Blakemore To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 5:45 AM Subject: [Scouter_T] Re:Teaching
                      Message 10 of 21 , Dec 13, 2006
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                        I've done it.
                        ---
                        Leslie

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Jeff Blakemore
                        To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 5:45 AM
                        Subject: [Scouter_T] Re:Teaching Scout Pride


                        Not to be cruel, but are the adults willing to wear their uniforms to work?
                        It is not too far different from what you are asking the boys.

                        YIS
                        ~Jeff

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Willis Madden
                        So have I. And I usually have to get permission to. ... uniforms to work?
                        Message 11 of 21 , Dec 13, 2006
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                          So have I. And I usually have to get permission to.

                          --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Leslie" <lbthmi@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I've done it.
                          > ---
                          > Leslie
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: Jeff Blakemore
                          > To: scouter_t@yahoogroups.com
                          > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 5:45 AM
                          > Subject: [Scouter_T] Re:Teaching Scout Pride
                          >
                          >
                          > Not to be cruel, but are the adults willing to wear their
                          uniforms to work?
                          > It is not too far different from what you are asking the boys.
                          >
                          > YIS
                          > ~Jeff
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Willis Madden
                          Looking forward to getting your message Neil, It hasnt come through yet, but Interesting comments. ... overcome peer ... that, ... cruelty ... by not ... has
                          Message 12 of 21 , Dec 13, 2006
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                            Looking forward to getting your message Neil, It hasnt come through yet,
                            but Interesting comments.


                            --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, NeilLup@... wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > In a message dated 12/13/06 7:32:49 AM, cknie23100@... writes:
                            >
                            >
                            > >
                            > > I believe that Scouting can be the arena for teaching boys to
                            overcome peer
                            > > pressure in many aspects of their lives but there are certain arenas
                            that,
                            > > even bribery, cannot be breeched.
                            > > (snip)
                            > > I do not believe as adults we comprehend, sometimes, the level of
                            cruelty
                            > > that children can subject other children to. If this can be avoided
                            by not
                            > > wearing a uniform to school, then so be it. Middle school especially
                            has so many
                            > > challenges that I don't choose to pressure my boys into making it
                            that much
                            > > harder.
                            > >
                            > > I wrote separately to Willis, but I wanted to concur totally with
                            this
                            > post.
                            >
                            > BP early on had proposed an additional Scout Law "A Scout is not a
                            Fool."
                            > By this he meant that a Scout did not so slavishly follow the Scout
                            Oath and
                            > Scout Law that he would allow others to take advantage of him because
                            of his
                            > trustworthiness, loyalty, obedience, etc.
                            >
                            > I believe that there are a number of ways to build and demonstrate
                            Scout
                            > Pride which can be neutral or even positive to one's peers. For
                            example, in
                            > my private post to Willis, I mentioned getting to meet the President.
                            > Similarly, if one got to carry the flag or be a uniformed usher at a
                            prestigious
                            > sports event and could only do it if one were in uniform, that would
                            be
                            > just fine.
                            >
                            > But, of course, that means a LOT of work for the adults in setting it
                            up.
                            > And setting up a continuing (not one-time) thing like this is enormous
                            work
                            > for the adults.
                            >
                            > In contrast, it is no work at all for the adults and no skin off the
                            nose
                            > of the adult to set up a situation where the Scout has to choose
                            between the
                            > embarrassment of wearing his uniform to school and the embarrassment
                            at a Scout
                            > meeting if he did NOT wear his uniform to school. That's a true no-win
                            > situation for the child with no benefit that I can see for a middle
                            school aged
                            > child. It strikes me as an excellent way to drive out those children
                            who have
                            > peer relations and only leave the ones whose status is strong that
                            they can
                            > disregard peer pressure or who are such outcasts that they have
                            nothing to
                            > lose.
                            >
                            > In my opinion, trying to crack the peer status situation for most
                            middle
                            > school children by encouraging wear of the uniform to school is like
                            trying to
                            > push a rope. There are too many factors conspiring against one and, in
                            the
                            > child's eyes, NO BENEFIT TO THE CHILD FOR DOING IT. There undoubtedly
                            is a
                            > perceived benefit to the adult who feels that he has cracked the youth
                            peer
                            > status system. But, I would respectfully ask, is that using children
                            and
                            > trifling with children's feelings and sensitivities for adult benefit.
                            >
                            > In my opinion, much to lose and not much to gain. If the swamp we are
                            > trying to drain is building Scout Pride, then I think the other ways
                            that I have
                            > mentioned, namely getting to do prestigious and desirable things
                            because
                            > one is a Scout is the way to go. But that's a lot more work, requires
                            more
                            > burning of personal chips and probably less personally rewarding for
                            the adult
                            > in question.
                            >
                            > Best wishes,
                            >
                            > Neil Lupton
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • Scouter Chuck
                            Connie Knie wrote: [snip] ... There are many things that younger children can get away with, that older ones cannot. For younger children, Oh, isn t that
                            Message 13 of 21 , Dec 13, 2006
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                              Connie Knie wrote:

                              [snip]
                              > I do not believe as adults we comprehend, sometimes, the level of
                              > cruelty that children can subject other children to. If this can be
                              > avoided by not wearing a uniform to school, then so be it. Middle
                              > school especially has so many challenges that I don't choose to
                              > pressure my boys into making it that much harder.

                              There are many things that younger children can get away with, that
                              older ones cannot. For younger children, "Oh, isn't that cute!" may
                              become "Isn't it time you grew up?" for an older child.

                              There is another aspect of this that has not yet been approached. I
                              know there are a great many teachers who are dedicated to doing the
                              best job they can to help children learn. There are also a number of
                              teachers that consider their students to be their own to mold, and to
                              indoctrinate or teach things that many of us oppose.

                              To reflect on what I've quoted above, I don't believe that we as
                              Scouter-adults can comprehend the level of cruelty that some of the
                              _teachers_ or administration can subject the children to. It's one
                              thing to be cornered on the playground and hassled -- it's quite
                              another to be called out in front of the class and humiliated for even
                              being a Scout. Or for any other reason.

                              While it would not be tolerated for a teacher to do that to a child
                              because of race or religion, it appears that it wouldn't be considered
                              "any big deal" if the child was a Scout.

                              YiS,

                              Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
                              I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
                              Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
                              Committee Member at Large, Roundtable Staff -- Member DNRC
                              ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                              "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
                              -- Stephen R. Covey
                              ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                            • Connie Knie
                              That thought absolutely terrifies me............ But to put a nice spin on this conversation. My senior did wear his uniform for one of the outfits for his
                              Message 14 of 21 , Dec 14, 2006
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                                That thought absolutely terrifies me............

                                But to put a nice spin on this conversation. My senior did wear his uniform for one of the outfits for his senior picture!!! He looks wonderful...........

                                Scouter Chuck <antelope95@...> wrote:
                                Connie Knie wrote:

                                [snip]
                                > I do not believe as adults we comprehend, sometimes, the level of
                                > cruelty that children can subject other children to. If this can be
                                > avoided by not wearing a uniform to school, then so be it. Middle
                                > school especially has so many challenges that I don't choose to
                                > pressure my boys into making it that much harder.

                                There are many things that younger children can get away with, that
                                older ones cannot. For younger children, "Oh, isn't that cute!" may
                                become "Isn't it time you grew up?" for an older child.

                                There is another aspect of this that has not yet been approached. I
                                know there are a great many teachers who are dedicated to doing the
                                best job they can to help children learn. There are also a number of
                                teachers that consider their students to be their own to mold, and to
                                indoctrinate or teach things that many of us oppose.

                                To reflect on what I've quoted above, I don't believe that we as
                                Scouter-adults can comprehend the level of cruelty that some of the
                                _teachers_ or administration can subject the children to. It's one
                                thing to be cornered on the playground and hassled -- it's quite
                                another to be called out in front of the class and humiliated for even
                                being a Scout. Or for any other reason.

                                While it would not be tolerated for a teacher to do that to a child
                                because of race or religion, it appears that it wouldn't be considered
                                "any big deal" if the child was a Scout.

                                YiS,

                                Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
                                I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
                                Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
                                Committee Member at Large, Roundtable Staff -- Member DNRC
                                ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
                                -- Stephen R. Covey
                                ----------------------------------------------------------------------



                                connie

                                SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/


                                connie

                                SUPPORT OUR TROOPS WITH YOUR OLD BLUE JEANS!!
                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/operationquietcomfort/

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • beth padnos
                                I have followed this discussion and have a bit to add. I don t think a person who does not wear a uniform is not proud of being a scout. My son is very proud
                                Message 15 of 21 , Dec 14, 2006
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                                  I have followed this discussion and have a bit to add.
                                  I don't think a person who does not wear a uniform is not proud of being a scout. My son is very proud to be a scout, the things he has done and plans to do. He just made Life Scout Tuesday night, is very active in the troop as ASPL, goes to camp and a provisional week each summer, currently has 39 merit badges, is OA, marches in our color guard in parades, etc, etc.
                                  The same boy (for the longest time) only wore class B t-shirts as his daily attire, however won't wear his class A unifrom to school.
                                  I think the big difference is that a t-shirt can show his membership/pride but is not so unusual that he sticks out.
                                  Beth Padnos



                                  ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • NeilLup@aol.com
                                  ... Hello Connie, My understanding is that for boys of younger Cub Scout age, the idea of wearing the uniform is pretty neat and then when they get to later
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Dec 14, 2006
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                                    In a message dated 12/14/06 7:36:41 AM, cknie23100@... writes:


                                    >
                                    >
                                    > That thought absolutely terrifies me..........
                                    >
                                    > But to put a nice spin on this conversation. My senior did wear his uniform
                                    > for one of the outfits for his senior picture!!! He looks wonderful... But
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >

                                    Hello Connie,

                                    My understanding is that for boys of younger Cub Scout age, the idea of
                                    wearing the uniform is pretty neat and then when they get to later high school,
                                    it is OK again for the ones who have stayed with it. It is at middle
                                    school and early Boy Scouts when peer pressure and "anti-Scout uniform" is highest.

                                    Best wishes,

                                    Neil Lupton


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Dan Kurtenbach
                                    Is this a training topic, by the way? Seems more appropriate for Scouts-L or Boy-Scout-Talk or some other forum . . . At middle school age, boys are in a
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Dec 14, 2006
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                                      Is this a training topic, by the way? Seems more appropriate for Scouts-L
                                      or Boy-Scout-Talk or some other forum . . .

                                      At middle school age, boys are in a stage of development where they are very
                                      attuned to their peer groups and the widely accepted likes, dislikes, and
                                      opinions of those groups. To the extent something is highly regarded by
                                      their group, it is cool to be seen as associating themselves with it. To
                                      the extent something is not highly regarded by the peer groupthink, kids
                                      don't want to be _seen_ as associating with it. Sports are cool, so sports
                                      uniforms are widely accepted. Scouting is generally not seen as a cool
                                      activity, so even boys who love Scouting ditch their uniforms in public (as
                                      do private school kids, band kids, etc.). As they get older and hit the
                                      middle/upper teenage years, boys have a much more developed identity of
                                      their own that relies less on peer groupthink, and thus they have the
                                      confidence to be more non-conformist.

                                      Dan Kurtenbach
                                      Fairfax, VA
                                    • Gerry Moon
                                      I typically bring my uniform in to work and change in the last hour of the day so I can drive straight to Roundtable or a Pack Meeting when the need arises.
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Dec 14, 2006
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                                        I typically bring my uniform in to work and change in the last hour of
                                        the day so I can drive straight to Roundtable or a Pack Meeting when
                                        the need arises. I'm pretty sure just about everyone in my office has
                                        seen me in uniform. I'm not sure I'd wear it all day unless there was
                                        a specific reason to do so. I don't have a problem having it on in
                                        front of my colleagues and ignore any cutesy comments I might get from
                                        the knuckleheads.

                                        Wearing uniform to school - I have some kids who will, others who
                                        won't. When I was a Cubmaster I pushed uniforms constantly - activity
                                        uniforms for Den meetings and field uniforms for Pack Meetings and any
                                        other public events. My successor isn't so much of a uniform person -
                                        and it shows in the Pack. Fewer and fewer kids show up in uniform
                                        these days.

                                        Gerry Moon
                                        Orlando, FL

                                        --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Blakemore" <jeff@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Not to be cruel, but are the adults willing to wear their uniforms
                                        to work?
                                        > It is not too far different from what you are asking the boys.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > YIS
                                        > ~Jeff
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                      • Gerry Moon
                                        I typically bring my uniform in to work and change in the last hour of the day so I can drive straight to Roundtable or a Pack Meeting when the need arises.
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Dec 14, 2006
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                                          I typically bring my uniform in to work and change in the last hour of
                                          the day so I can drive straight to Roundtable or a Pack Meeting when
                                          the need arises. I'm pretty sure just about everyone in my office has
                                          seen me in uniform. I'm not sure I'd wear it all day unless there was
                                          a specific reason to do so. I don't have a problem having it on in
                                          front of my colleagues and ignore any cutesy comments I might get from
                                          the knuckleheads.

                                          Wearing uniform to school - I have some kids who will, others who
                                          won't. When I was a Cubmaster I pushed uniforms constantly - activity
                                          uniforms for Den meetings and field uniforms for Pack Meetings and any
                                          other public events. My successor isn't so much of a uniform person -
                                          and it shows in the Pack. Fewer and fewer kids show up in uniform
                                          these days.

                                          Gerry Moon
                                          Orlando, FL

                                          --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Blakemore" <jeff@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Not to be cruel, but are the adults willing to wear their uniforms
                                          to work?
                                          > It is not too far different from what you are asking the boys.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > YIS
                                          > ~Jeff
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                        • Gerry Moon
                                          I d like to see the 13th point of the Scout Law become A Scout is punctual ... Gerry Moon Orlando, FL ... overcome peer ... arenas that, ... of cruelty ...
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Dec 14, 2006
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                                            I'd like to see the 13th point of the Scout Law become "A Scout is
                                            punctual"...

                                            Gerry Moon
                                            Orlando, FL

                                            --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, NeilLup@... wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > In a message dated 12/13/06 7:32:49 AM, cknie23100@... writes:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            > > I believe that Scouting can be the arena for teaching boys to
                                            overcome peer
                                            > > pressure in many aspects of their lives but there are certain
                                            arenas that,
                                            > > even bribery, cannot be breeched.
                                            > > (snip)
                                            > > I do not believe as adults we comprehend, sometimes, the level
                                            of cruelty
                                            > > that children can subject other children to. If this can be
                                            avoided by not
                                            > > wearing a uniform to school, then so be it. Middle school
                                            especially has so many
                                            > > challenges that I don't choose to pressure my boys into making
                                            it that much
                                            > > harder.
                                            > >
                                            > > I wrote separately to Willis, but I wanted to concur totally
                                            with this
                                            > post.
                                            >
                                            > BP early on had proposed an additional Scout Law "A Scout is not
                                            a Fool."
                                            > By this he meant that a Scout did not so slavishly follow the
                                            Scout Oath and
                                            > Scout Law that he would allow others to take advantage of him
                                            because of his
                                            > trustworthiness, loyalty, obedience, etc.
                                            >
                                            > I believe that there are a number of ways to build and demonstrate
                                            Scout
                                            > Pride which can be neutral or even positive to one's peers. For
                                            example, in
                                            > my private post to Willis, I mentioned getting to meet the
                                            President.
                                            > Similarly, if one got to carry the flag or be a uniformed usher
                                            at a prestigious
                                            > sports event and could only do it if one were in uniform, that
                                            would be
                                            > just fine.
                                            >
                                            > But, of course, that means a LOT of work for the adults in
                                            setting it up.
                                            > And setting up a continuing (not one-time) thing like this is
                                            enormous work
                                            > for the adults.
                                            >
                                            > In contrast, it is no work at all for the adults and no skin off
                                            the nose
                                            > of the adult to set up a situation where the Scout has to choose
                                            between the
                                            > embarrassment of wearing his uniform to school and the
                                            embarrassment at a Scout
                                            > meeting if he did NOT wear his uniform to school. That's a true
                                            no-win
                                            > situation for the child with no benefit that I can see for a
                                            middle school aged
                                            > child. It strikes me as an excellent way to drive out those
                                            children who have
                                            > peer relations and only leave the ones whose status is strong that
                                            they can
                                            > disregard peer pressure or who are such outcasts that they have
                                            nothing to
                                            > lose.
                                            >
                                            > In my opinion, trying to crack the peer status situation for
                                            most middle
                                            > school children by encouraging wear of the uniform to school is
                                            like trying to
                                            > push a rope. There are too many factors conspiring against one
                                            and, in the
                                            > child's eyes, NO BENEFIT TO THE CHILD FOR DOING IT. There
                                            undoubtedly is a
                                            > perceived benefit to the adult who feels that he has cracked the
                                            youth peer
                                            > status system. But, I would respectfully ask, is that using
                                            children and
                                            > trifling with children's feelings and sensitivities for adult
                                            benefit.
                                            >
                                            > In my opinion, much to lose and not much to gain. If the swamp
                                            we are
                                            > trying to drain is building Scout Pride, then I think the other
                                            ways that I have
                                            > mentioned, namely getting to do prestigious and desirable things
                                            because
                                            > one is a Scout is the way to go. But that's a lot more work,
                                            requires more
                                            > burning of personal chips and probably less personally rewarding
                                            for the adult
                                            > in question.
                                            >
                                            > Best wishes,
                                            >
                                            > Neil Lupton
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                          • Terilianne@aol.com
                                            And on the flip side, Our school system last year celebrated scouting by having a Scouting Day on which all scouts (girl, boy, venture crew, explorer etc)
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Dec 14, 2006
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                                              And on the flip side,
                                              Our school system last year celebrated scouting by having a Scouting Day
                                              on which all scouts (girl, boy, venture crew, explorer etc) were encouraged to
                                              wear their uniforms and were recognized during morning announcements. Their
                                              efforts school wide were applauded in fund raising, building improvement
                                              projects at local parks, disaster relief projects and helping at various
                                              shelters and nursing homes in our area. And this is a public school. Of course our
                                              school board has some scouts (both boy and girl) on it to help encourage
                                              rather than disparage. Our local paper routinely promotes our scouting events
                                              (boy and girl) because we send out "publicity" from our packs, troops, crews
                                              and posts to let our community know about our presence.

                                              Teri


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