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Re: Training Conducted at RT.

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  • jonas4321
    ... Though this answer does not directly address your concern about compressing schedules to fit another activity (I share that concern), the Troop Committee
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 4, 2006
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      --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Scouter Chuck <antelope95@...> wrote:
      >
      > Is someone who took Troop Committee Challenge at RT trained to the
      > same level as someone who took a 3 hour course on one evening, or a
      > Sat. morning? Are they as well trained as one who took it as a 4.5
      > hour course, no matter when?
      >
      > If the course was designed as a 4-4.5 hour course, I don't think we
      > should be cutting the corners just to get it done within a shorter
      > time frame, like RT.
      >

      Though this answer does not directly address your concern about
      compressing schedules to fit another activity (I share that concern),
      the Troop Committee Challenge course is designed to run 3 hours. The
      syllabus uses 6:30pm to 9:30pm as its timeframe of reference.

      I have been doing TCC for a few years and have done many (many)
      courses. I usually run this course at 3.5 hours, which includes a
      break, often for a meal like dinner, if the group I am doing the
      training for is so inclined. Any extra time (beyond the 3 hours) is
      often used for extending the Buzz Group discussion time, which always
      seems to spark the most discussion. I think that 3 hours without a
      break is a reasonable timeframe to hold this course in.

      4.5 hours for this syllabus would be making it a bit long, imo.

      Jonas

      ps- As an aside, TCC is a great example of a training I don't think
      could be served up online for an individual 'attendee'. The group
      interaction is integral to the materials.
    • corinnajones@hotmail.com
      Chuck, Coming from the Cub Scout side, I am becoming more active in Boy Scouts now, and will be attending Troop Committee Challenge tonight, run by our
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 4, 2006
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        Chuck,
        Coming from the Cub Scout side, I am becoming more active in Boy Scouts now, and will be attending Troop Committee Challenge tonight, run by our district training staff. At this month's RT, I am looking forward to participating in the Merit Badge Counselor orientation.
        There are regularly opportunities for training at our district camporees. For the winter camporee Troop Committee Challenge is scheduled as well as YPT. In the spring there will we another session on a Saturday.
        While YPT, Health & Safety, MB counselor orientation, etc., fit well into the framework of roundtable, and might just improve attendance, the fundamental trainings would definitely be short-changed. I have not seen them done at RT, and hope this won't change.

        YiS,
        Corinna


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Scouter Chuck
        To: bsrtpost ; rtpost ; sctr-t
        Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 1:12 AM
        Subject: [Scouter_T] Training Conducted at RT.


        I wrote about this concern to a list member of one list, and while I
        did receive a reply from him, I would like to toss it out to the rest
        of you, for more comments.

        I'm concerned about the quality of training received by the leader who
        takes NLE or "position specific training" at RT. Or even the Troop
        Committee challenge. The question was:

        Is someone who took Troop Committee Challenge at RT trained to the
        same level as someone who took a 3 hour course on one evening, or a
        Sat. morning? Are they as well trained as one who took it as a 4.5
        hour course, no matter when?

        If the course was designed as a 4-4.5 hour course, I don't think we
        should be cutting the corners just to get it done within a shorter
        time frame, like RT.

        I'm _royally_ concerned about various trainings being compressed into
        the time of one RT. IMHO, the attendees get short changed, meaning
        the units get short changed, and all that happens is that the training
        records get filled out faster.

        Our District Committee Meeting is TU, and I would like to bring this
        subject up for discussion. To do that effectively, I'll need some
        back up data. That's where you folks come in, and the reason for the
        post.

        I really don't think these courses are actually the "supplemental
        training" that are supposed to be conducted at RT.

        YiS,

        Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
        I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
        Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
        Committee Member at Large, Roundtable Staff -- Member DNRC
        ----------------------------------------------------------
        "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
        -- Stephen R. Covey
        ----------------------------------------------------------




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Kevin Pate
        ... Not to put too fine a point on things, but uh, pray tell, how much tiem beyond an hour and a half is necessary to teach a 90 minute trainng session 8^)
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 4, 2006
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          barrythebluebear@... wrote:


          > Anybody, and I mean anybody, who thinks "Essentials"
          > can be taught at an 1.5 hour roundtable is a self-
          > admitted delusional personality that needs serious
          > counseling, possible a twelve-step program or
          > scouting rehab. They are doing harm by neglect.
          > They must stop it.

          Not to put too fine a point on things, but uh, pray
          tell, how much tiem beyond an hour and a half is
          necessary to teach a 90 minute trainng session 8^)



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        • John Halter
          I was wondering the same thing. It s funny that this topic came up here at this time. It was recently suggested by some scout leaders that we begin offering
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 4, 2006
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            I was wondering the same thing. It's funny that this topic came up here
            at this time. It was recently suggested by some scout leaders that we
            begin offering training at Round Table. I told them we would look into
            it and I can see where some things may be able to be covered, but first,
            we have to come up with a training team. I don't have a problem
            offering training, but I'm not going to sacrifice the RT program to do
            it and I'm not going to use the RT staff to do the training. Not
            everyone needs training, so for those that are not interested in going
            through it again, there needs to be the option of the regularly
            scheduled RT session. I could see offering NLE at RT, then offering the
            remaining training sessions either on the following weekend or broken up
            across a few weeknights.

            Thank you,

            John Halter
            District Commissioner
            Wekiwa District
            Central FL Council, B.S.A.
            www.wekiwa.cfcbsa.org
            "PackDude" at www.Scoutboard.com
            ...and a good 'ol Bobwhite too! SR442
            Wekiwa is an Indian word that means "spring of water"



            Kevin Pate wrote:
            >
            >
            > Not to put too fine a point on things, but uh, pray
            > tell, how much tiem beyond an hour and a half is
            > necessary to teach a 90 minute trainng session 8^)
            >
            > .,___


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Gerry Moon
            We tried it a couple years ago - offering NLE at Roundtable - and found it DO-ABLE but not ACCEPTABLE - in terms of not up to our training team s standards. We
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 4, 2006
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              We tried it a couple years ago - offering NLE at Roundtable - and
              found it DO-ABLE but not ACCEPTABLE - in terms of not up to our
              training team's standards. We just put more than 90 minutes of
              videos and powerpoints into our NLE sessions. One thing we encourage
              is DIALOG - when we get the students to ask questions and talk, a
              whole lot more comes out and everyone sitting in benefits from that
              discussion. We don't stray far from the syllabus, mind you, but we
              do take the info a little deeper than the ink on the page.

              BTW, John and I are in the same council, different districts. I
              agree 100% with his reluctance to use RT staff to train - while in
              my district, a good portion of the RT straff ALSO trains, we don't
              mix the two - RT is a COMMISSIONER function and training falls under
              PROGRAM. When I staff Roundtable, I do so as a Commissioner, not as
              a trainer. I do promote Roundtable at training and I promote
              training at Roundtable.

              Roundtable is not the place to do training (in the purest of
              definition). Yes, I know that what we do at RT sure looks like
              training on the surface, especially right after school night, but
              the function there is to provide Unit Service in a group setting.
              There is no monthly Roundtable syllabus to teach from with learning
              objectives to achieve. Dragging training to RT in my view is not a
              very good idea at all. Likewise, offering training CONCURRENTLY with
              Roundtable makes them have to choose between the two - again, not
              such a great thing.

              Gerry Moon
              Orlando, FL

              --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, John Halter <john@...> wrote:
              >
              > I was wondering the same thing. It's funny that this topic came
              up here
              > at this time. It was recently suggested by some scout leaders
              that we
              > begin offering training at Round Table. I told them we would look
              into
              > it and I can see where some things may be able to be covered, but
              first,
              > we have to come up with a training team. I don't have a problem
              > offering training, but I'm not going to sacrifice the RT program
              to do
              > it and I'm not going to use the RT staff to do the training. Not
              > everyone needs training, so for those that are not interested in
              going
              > through it again, there needs to be the option of the regularly
              > scheduled RT session. I could see offering NLE at RT, then
              offering the
              > remaining training sessions either on the following weekend or
              broken up
              > across a few weeknights.
              >
              > Thank you,
              >
              > John Halter
              > District Commissioner
              > Wekiwa District
              > Central FL Council, B.S.A.
              > www.wekiwa.cfcbsa.org
              > "PackDude" at www.Scoutboard.com
              > ...and a good 'ol Bobwhite too! SR442
              > Wekiwa is an Indian word that means "spring of water"
              >
              >
              >
              > Kevin Pate wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Not to put too fine a point on things, but uh, pray
              > > tell, how much tiem beyond an hour and a half is
              > > necessary to teach a 90 minute trainng session 8^)
              > >
              > > .,___
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Teresa Hall
              Well, I ll speak to the other side of the coin since I do offer one Cub Scout Leader Essential session at seven RTs each year. Just because I am holding a
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 4, 2006
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                Well, I'll speak to the other side of the coin since I do offer one Cub
                Scout Leader Essential session at seven RTs each year. Just because I am
                holding a training session during RT does not mean that I expect to end the
                same time as RT. We start RT at 7:00, and the trainees stay for the opening
                ceremony. They are then adjourned into another room where the training
                lasts until 9:30 or 10:00pm. This is how it is advertised, so no one is
                surprised or inconvenienced. We generally train 7-10 people per month,
                compared to the 50 or 60 we get during our Saturday events. One month,
                instead of a Cub LST, we teach NLE as a RT breakout. This is marketed
                to folks who found RT training convenient at other times during the year,
                but is opened to anyone. We also make sure they know about NLE at the
                beginning of SMLST or other times it's offered during the year.

                So, while I agree that anyone who is condensing a Cub SLT to 1.5 hours is
                doing a grave disservice, please don't lump ALL folks offering CSLST during
                RT in that pile. It just ain't so! <smile>

                John Halter and Gerry Moon's comments about distracting from RT is relevent,
                too. In OUR instance (but not necessarily yours) we started this during a
                period of building Cub RTs, and with the full buy-in of the District
                Commissioner and the Cub RT Commissioner. Our Cub training had a very good
                reputation, but RT was more of an unknown to the leaders. Usually the
                people who come for training have never been to a RT. They get to see it,
                come for the early snack supper if they like, socialize a bit, get the RT
                handouts, and KNOW that there's fun they are missing! (Sometimes LST
                is even interrupted by a barrage of RT folks with marshmallow blowers or a
                visiting alligator!) We refer to it during the training as one of the best
                places to get continuing support for their position -- and now that they
                have actually seen it, they are not reluctant to come back. We've
                experienced RT growth from this. Your mileage may vary.

                YiS,
                Teresa Hall
                Vulcan District Cub Training Coordinator
                Past Vulcan Cub RT Commissioner
                Greater AL Council


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Dave Loomis
                I ve offered Commissioner Basic Training during the breakout time at our Roundtables, but I ran the training over several meetings so that we could cover all
                Message 7 of 14 , Dec 5, 2006
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                  I've offered Commissioner Basic Training during the breakout time
                  at our Roundtables, but I ran the training over several meetings so that
                  we could cover all of the information.

                  Dave

                  Dave Loomis mailto:dloomis.nh.ultranet@...
                  245 Union St.,# 4 603 431 5342
                  Portsmouth, NH 03801-4349
                • Scouter Chuck
                  I d like to thank all of you for your responses so far. I ll have to cook these down a bit, and then will address some specific points out of these replies.
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 5, 2006
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                    I'd like to thank all of you for your responses so far. I'll have to
                    "cook these down" a bit, and then will address some specific points
                    out of these replies.

                    This subject came up tonight at the District Committee Meeting, and I
                    was told by our DE that any training is better than no training. I
                    replied with the example of the commercial that is currently running
                    for one cereal brand, where the teenage boy is shown in the back room
                    eating a bowl of the cereal.

                    A teenage girl comes back to tell him the boss wants him to get to
                    work. The commercial shows her telling him the whole thing, then
                    shows the same thing, with major portions of it blotted out by the
                    sound of his chewing. She can't stand him, but her hears that she
                    thinks he's "the cat's meow".

                    I'm more than a bit worried that this is what will happen in any RT
                    held training that involves truncating a much longer course.

                    YiS,

                    Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
                    I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
                    Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
                    Committee Member at Large, Roundtable Staff -- Member DNRC
                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                    "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
                    -- Stephen R. Covey
                    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
                  • John Halter
                    I hope your DE is not trying to push training off onto your RT staffers/Commissioners. I agree that training is important, but if training is needed that
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 6, 2006
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                      I hope your DE is not trying to push training off onto your RT
                      staffers/Commissioners. I agree that training is important, but if
                      training is needed that badly, your training chair should be holding
                      extra sessions to get the leaders trained. If the leaders are not able
                      to make it to the normal Saturday training sessions, set up a few non-RT
                      night training sessions. Training is still a function of the District
                      Committee. What did your Program chair have to say? What do your RT
                      Commissioners and DC think about your DE's statement? BTW, nice come
                      back with commercial reference.

                      Thank you,

                      John Halter
                      District Commissioner
                      Wekiwa District
                      Central FL Council, B.S.A.
                      www.wekiwa.cfcbsa.org
                      "PackDude" at www.Scoutboard.com
                      ...and a good 'ol Bobwhite too! SR442
                      Wekiwa is an Indian word that means "spring of water"



                      Scouter Chuck wrote:
                      >
                      > I'd like to thank all of you for your responses so far. I'll have to
                      > "cook these down" a bit, and then will address some specific points
                      > out of these replies.
                      >
                      > This subject came up tonight at the District Committee Meeting, and I
                      > was told by our DE that any training is better than no training. I
                      > replied with the example of the commercial that is currently running
                      > for one cereal brand, where the teenage boy is shown in the back room
                      > eating a bowl of the cereal.
                      >
                      > A teenage girl comes back to tell him the boss wants him to get to
                      > work. The commercial shows her telling him the whole thing, then
                      > shows the same thing, with major portions of it blotted out by the
                      > sound of his chewing. She can't stand him, but her hears that she
                      > thinks he's "the cat's meow".
                      >
                      > I'm more than a bit worried that this is what will happen in any RT
                      > held training that involves truncating a much longer course.
                      >
                      > YiS,
                      >
                      > Chuck Bramlet -- Phoenix, Az. ----- mailto:antelope95@...
                      > <mailto:antelope95%40cox.net>
                      > I "used to be" an Antelope! -- WEM-10-95
                      > Thunderbird District -- Grand Canyon Council
                      > Committee Member at Large, Roundtable Staff -- Member DNRC
                      > ----------------------------------------------------------
                      > "The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing"
                      > -- Stephen R. Covey
                      > ----------------------------------------------------------
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Dave Loomis
                      Now this gets into one of my personal beliefs. Commissioners should staff training courses. My reasons are several. This gives the Commissioners a chance to
                      Message 10 of 14 , Dec 7, 2006
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                        Now this gets into one of my personal beliefs. Commissioners
                        should staff training courses.

                        My reasons are several. This gives the Commissioners a chance to
                        meet the trainees in a non-confrontational situation where they are
                        passing out good info. It shows the Commissioners off as the folks who
                        know the material, experts to whom you can go for good information. And
                        it keeps the Commissioners up to date on Scouting as she really is, not
                        as she was a few years ago when they got trained.

                        Dave

                        John Halter wrote:
                        > I hope your DE is not trying to push training off onto your RT
                        > staffers/Commissioners.
                        >
                        > Thank you,
                        >
                        > John Halter
                        > District Commissioner
                        >
                        >

                        Dave Loomis mailto:dloomis.nh.ultranet@...
                        245 Union St.,# 4 603 431 5342
                        Portsmouth, NH 03801-4349
                      • Gerry Moon
                        Okay, my two cents. I believe that training should NOT be relegated to Commissioners - and in the same breath, I also believe that Commissioners are probably
                        Message 11 of 14 , Dec 7, 2006
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                          Okay, my two cents. I believe that training should NOT be relegated
                          to Commissioners - and in the same breath, I also believe that
                          Commissioners are probably more qualified to train that any of us. I
                          have Commissioners on my training team that, frankly, I couldn't
                          live without. I'm one myself, holding both UC and RT Staff
                          positions, but I'll be the first to admit that I'm very much a Cub
                          Scout. So - I agree with Dave in that Commissioners are great
                          candidates for trainers, and I agree with John that it's not their
                          responsibility to provide training.

                          Training requires more than just experience and knowledge of the
                          subject - even more so when we are thinking Cub training. You have
                          to think Cub Scouts, act Cub Scouts, sell Cub Scouts to apprehensive
                          and reluctant adults at first. Not so much once you move into Boy
                          Scout training...but Cub trainers need to not only deliver the info
                          but do it in a fun, non-intimidating way to hook these new parents
                          and get them to step into the water.

                          Gerry Moon
                          Orlando, FL

                          --- In scouter_t@yahoogroups.com, Dave Loomis
                          <dloomis.nh.ultranet@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Now this gets into one of my personal beliefs.
                          Commissioners
                          > should staff training courses.
                          >
                          > My reasons are several. This gives the Commissioners a
                          chance to
                          > meet the trainees in a non-confrontational situation where they
                          are
                          > passing out good info. It shows the Commissioners off as the
                          folks who
                          > know the material, experts to whom you can go for good
                          information. And
                          > it keeps the Commissioners up to date on Scouting as she really
                          is, not
                          > as she was a few years ago when they got trained.
                          >
                          > Dave
                          >
                          > John Halter wrote:
                          > > I hope your DE is not trying to push training off onto your RT
                          > > staffers/Commissioners.
                          > >
                          > > Thank you,
                          > >
                          > > John Halter
                          > > District Commissioner
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > Dave Loomis mailto:dloomis.nh.ultranet@...
                          > 245 Union St.,# 4 603 431 5342
                          > Portsmouth, NH 03801-4349
                          >
                        • Don Wilson
                          Ditto, Gerry. At a recent Commissioner s meeting the District Commissioner told the Unit Commissioner to make lists for their units of leaders trained and not
                          Message 12 of 14 , Dec 7, 2006
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                            Ditto, Gerry.

                            At a recent Commissioner's meeting the District Commissioner told the
                            Unit Commissioner to make lists for their units of leaders trained
                            and not trained, and then to insure that the entrained leaders get to
                            the next training, and even suggested that the Unit Commissioner do
                            the training if necessary. The District Director (one step above
                            Senior District Executive) sat on his backside and never said a word.
                            As the meeting ended I took the DD to task advising him that with a
                            Commissioner staff keeping up with training, he would not need a
                            Training Chair.

                            Unit Commissioners have specified duties, one of which is to
                            encourage leaders be trained, and meets with the Unit Committee
                            during which the subject of training should be discussed.

                            While the District Training Chair, I made person-to-person contact
                            with every direct contact leader in the District, all units. I
                            recorded the training that each had received and shared that
                            information with the Council Registrar. Information was entered into
                            the Council records. Regrettably, when the data was uploaded to
                            ScoutNet 2,000, ALL training information was lost. I passed the
                            notebook to my replacement, and it was never utilized, much less kept
                            up-to-date. With any luck (OK, some sort of miracle) the new
                            District Training Chair will be able to completely update leader
                            training records.

                            Don Wilson
                            OHC 427+
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